Let's get this over with. Yujiro Hanma vs Ikki Kurogane.

[KGiffoni]

Not worth arguing, Orochi could break free from that technique, let alone Ikki

 

[KGiffoni]

2. Those are literally only 2 moves in all of martial arts baki has. Those are the only 2 that allow fighting up to such a level. And Shibuki could never actually fight Yujiro. The rest isn't really anything all that impressive.
3. They produce energy but you can't reflect it, same as how you can't reflect a grab. Producing energy doesn't = reflectable. If someone like Jack could abuse it, Ikki sure as hell can.

4. Yujiro was punched in his centre of gravity while using Xiao Lee, he was sent flying. If it were a sword it would have pierced right through.

8. That's what im saying dude they're both through skill. Yujiro has never copied anything on a similar level to "ignorning friction" or hiding from the mind of the opponent. Him having copied skill based abilities before doesn't mean he can copy any skill based abilties. It's fallacious.

9. Ikki does do that, he fouses on the attack then starts Rasetsu, but can addapt to external factors mid way (like when he used Stella's strike to boost his own AP even though she attacked mid Ittou Rasetsu). He has a dozen other senses like danger, awareness etc.

10. Similar Ikki's reaction amp makes him perceive stuff in slow motion. Besides Yujiro has never used Sangan iirc, completely out of character.

2. Yeah, they're examples of how the martial arts of the Bakiverse are far from useless. Like, why would a martial art even exist if it wasn't at least somewhat combat applicable? And as i said, the martial arts of the Bakiverse are nowhere like real life martial arts. Trust me when i say none of them are any useless.


3. In the case of Aiki, it should because its AR works based on energy. It's explictly said that the bite is the perfect counter for Aiki because it produces "zero energy", what i think both we can agree isn't true. But yeah, that doesn't matter, the point is, biting is very effective against Aiki. The thing is, it's very ooc for Ikki to bite, while it's one of Jack's signature moves. And even then, biting is basically suicide against someone who can one-shot you, one of Ikki's biggest advantages here is his superior range, going for a bite makes him an easy target.

4. That had nothing to do with center of gravity, otherwise it would've been mentioned. He was sent flying but wasn't damaged at all because he used Xiao-Lee, and Xiao-Lee works against swords just as it does for blunt attacks.

8. Ikki's techniques are gained through body control and skill, things Yujiro already has shown to be able to master in the same degree as Ikki's (at least the skill part, i think Ikki's body control is superior).

9. Yeah but it's implicit that he lost all his senses and not only the ones mentioned.

10. He hasn't because he doesn't need to. He already stomps everyone in his verse, but as soon as he identifies Ikki as a worthy opponent he'd be ready to bring the big guns.

 

[KGiffoni]

I do just want to say, if ya go by scaling.
Baki has a lightjab faster than light. https://i.imgur.com/ygTsXNi.jpg seen here. The writer even says "It is faster then light"

Yujiro is just better Baki at the end of the day.

That was deemed as a hyperbole so we don't use that. Anyways, Speed is equalized and Yujiro already has a bunch of other moves that amp speed and AP (what is useless here since he one-shots anyways).

 

[KGiffoni]

I see no proof that Xiao Lee would work against a sword and slashing weapons. All it does is make the body go limp to avoid taking damage against blunt weapons ( such as a punch. ) I'm sorry but you'll need actual scans of it protecting against blades and such whenever it's only worked against punches.

Xiao Lee was never once stated to work only against blunt attacks. Even Musashi, who is waaaaaaaay stronger than Retsu (Retsu only having an incomplete Xiao Lee, while Yujiro has mastered it) and the best swordsman of the verse only partially broke through Retsu's Xiao Lee. It was stated that if Retsu didn't have Xiao Lee every single blade sword would have made clean slices through him, while Retsu managed to survive lots of them.

 

[BakiHanma18]

Wait that was in the Baki 2018. Yeah i remember, it's not that easy though. Iirc that only worked for people who were deluded on winning. You can't put anyone in that and even then, Ikki's dozen other senses will take care of it even assuming it would put him in the illusion.
Rechecked: Yeah it only works with deluded opponents. Because the opponent specifically needs to "want his opponent to be a lot weaker than Dorian actually is". And has Yujiro ever demonstrated this?

Yujiro hasn't, but it's a similar situation to how he's granted the pinch strength, Apnea Rush, Void Style of the inmates: it's extremely likely with his knowledge of martial arts, anatomy, and mastery of body control, Yujiro would know how to do it, possibly better than Dorian

Things like extrasensory perception, instinctive reaction, analytical predictions also counter it, but it wouldn't impede, distract, or even work on Ikki at all? If not, guess it's back to the drawing board

 

[BakiHanma18]

Not worth arguing, Orochi could break free from that technique, let alone Ikki

Actually, remember we all agreed Doppo shouldn't have mind manipulation resistance awhile ago? Retsu and Katsumi stayed that he was still under the affects of the hypnosis, but he'd already figured out all of Dorian's moves, so the real Dorian and the imaginary Dorian we're doing the same things, hence why Amlad wants to give Doppo Analytical prediction

 

[KGiffoni]

Oh, i see. But still the same would happen to Ikki

 

[BakiHanma18]

Oh, i see. But still the same would happen to Ikki

That's what I figured (and hoped) would happen. Ikki would be completely fine and able to ignore it, but it would at least give Yujiro until Yujiro tried to hit Ikki to observe and analyze his movements. Of course when Yujiro would go to attack, Ikki's vision of Yujiro and actual Yujiro would align, but at least that gives Yujiro's observational abilities a chance to get all of Ikki's info from the start of their re-engagement (assuming Yujiro would only resort to this ability after having difficulty with Ikki).

 

[Firephoenixearl]

2. Yes, back to my point say what are useful not all are useful because some are. It's fallacious reasoning. Also no, marital arts don't do that, those 2 in particular do. I don't say "swordmasters in rakudai can do what ikki can" because ikki specifically can, not all. So that's again fallacious.

3. Not really, the resultant is 0. Basically anything that isn't a blunt attack can't be reflected. No, not swords either.

4. Logic dictates that. Every attack that wasn't in the centre of gravity didn't send him flying, only that. Not everything has to be stated, when not stated logic takes over.

8. Exactly my point, show me yujiro mastering anything even close to the 2 techniques I told you. Stop dodging the question, i just ask for proof of having copied similar techniques, without such proof yujiro can't be assumed to copy them.

9. When? Not that it matters he can still adapt to his surroundings in that form by feats, so it's not like it matters much how. He's also 200x faster so yujiro can't react to it either way.

10. He did fight for a long time against baki and musashi. He'll he was pushed back and even scared for a sec against kaku. He has also decided to use demon back in every scenario. So he chose his best amp as opposed to weaker amps because...?

An incomplete xiao Lee being overpowered by swords doesn't somehow mean that a complete one will be immune to it.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

@Baki

Ikki fight unconscious like it's normal, that ain't deterring him

 

[BakiHanma18]

@Baki
Ikki fight unconscious like it's normal, that ain't deterring him

Oh no, he's still conscious, just hallucinating, but Yujiro won't be able to hit him, only watch and observe. As soon as he tries to hit Ikki, Ikki will have already analyzed his identity, so everything Yujiro does will be as Ikki imagines, so the hallucination Yujiro and the real one will be doing the exact same thing. Instinctive Reaction would provide him him a way to defend himself while hypnotized, by Ikki won't even need it with his Analytical prediction

 

[Firephoenixearl]

If he can fight without senses he won't be bothered by affecting the senses.

Though as i said that requires the opponent to be deluded on the opponent's power. Ikki can notice that from a first glance.

 

[BakiHanma18]

If he can fight without senses he won't be bothered by affecting the senses.
Though as i said that requires the opponent to be deluded on the opponent's power. Ikki can notice that from a first glance.

Ahh okay, didn't know that's what you meant by that

If Ikki has any reason to want to win (I'm assuming he does, or he wouldn't fight until the first place), the effects would being, and as far as breaking out, all Ikki would know is that the hypnosis isn't real, he'd still have to deal with a fake Yujiro, but it's a moot point because of the first point

 

[KGiffoni]

2. Yes, back to my point say what are useful not all are useful because some are. It's fallacious reasoning. Also no, marital arts don't do that, those 2 in particular do. I don't say "swordmasters in rakudai can do what ikki can" because ikki specifically can, not all. So that's again fallacious.
3. Not really, the resultant is 0. Basically anything that isn't a blunt attack can't be reflected. No, not swords either.

4. Logic dictates that. Every attack that wasn't in the centre of gravity didn't send him flying, only that. Not everything has to be stated, when not stated logic takes over.

8. Exactly my point, show me yujiro mastering anything even close to the 2 techniques I told you. Stop dodging the question, i just ask for proof of having copied similar techniques, without such proof yujiro can't be assumed to copy them.

9. When? Not that it matters he can still adapt to his surroundings in that form by feats, so it's not like it matters much how. He's also 200x faster so yujiro can't react to it either way.

10. He did fight for a long time against baki and musashi. He'll he was pushed back and even scared for a sec against kaku. He has also decided to use demon back in every scenario. So he chose his best amp as opposed to weaker amps because...?

An incomplete xiao Lee being overpowered by swords doesn't somehow mean that a complete one will be immune to it.

2. No, it's fallacious to assume "a ton of them" are completly useless when none of them have shown to be so far. In fact, most martial arts of the Bakiverse give OP abilities such as attack reflection, durability negation, damage reduction, and all that stuff. The 2 martial artists i mentioned are just examples, but most (if not all) the martial arts of the verse are like that. And i don't get what the whole Ikki thing you just said has to do with anything i've said.

3. From the Baki wiki:

" Aiki is a Japanese martial arts principle or tactic in which the defender blends (without clashing) with the attacker, then goes on to dominate the assailant through the strength of their application of internal dynamics or Ki energy to affect techniques. "

It's not a technique that resorts to physical contact. It works with Ki energy. It's said in the manga, with those words, that the bite in specific can't be reflected because it produces 0 energy. Interpret that as you will, but it doesn't change the fact this technique works with blades, grapples, and the like.

4. No, he got sent flying because he used Xiao Lee. Getting sent flying is a consequence of using Xiao Lee, it's natural.

8. No, in order to copy Ikki's techniques he doesn't need to have been shown copying these techniques in specific before. Let's look at the roots of these abilities: skill. Now, ofc it's not only skill, but also absurd levels of body control (turning your mind off) and swordmanship (ignoring friction, cutting steel with a piece of paper). Have the abilities Yujiro copied (by instance, Xiao Lee) shown to have absurd amounts of body control and swordmanship? The awnser for the first is yes, for the second it's no. So we get the awnser: Yujiro can copy the "turn your mind off' thing, but can't copy the "ignoring friction" thing. At least that's how i see it.

9. " Vision, taste, hearing, touch, smell―right now, he didn't need any of them. In this instant, he didn't even need to breathe. ". It's implicit that he lost all his senses, not only the ones mentioned. God, he even lost breathing. Yujiro can still probably avoid getting hit by this 1s transformation thanks to AP, 6th sense, and sheer skill.

10. You don't have to do anything other than look at his face to know he was totally in control of all these situations. Musashi could barely cut through his skin even while in base, completly curbstomped Kaku Kaioh once he activated Demon Back... etc etc.

11. (Xiao Lee working or not against blades) It was stated that Retsu's incomplete Xiao Lee has greatly helping him, even if barely, survive Musashi's slashes. It was stated that, if Retsu didn't have some knowledge on Xiao Lee, Musashi would be doing clean slices through Retsu, while in reality it took a good effort to cut deep enough to actually render Retsu unable to fight. And in this scenario, Musashi was thousands of times stronger than Retsu's durability AND Retsu had an incomplete Xiao Lee. In the situation of this VS Match, however, Yujiro not only holds the durability advantage by default, he's also a master at Xiao Lee while Retsu's only incomplete.

 

[BakiHanma18]

I got another possible combo approach


What if Yujiro tries Hand Pocket? And if that doesn't work, what about a Hand Pocket variant of Apnea Rush? A speed amped speed amping combo (Hand Pocket is the only move fast enough in Baki to outspeed the activation of 0.5 that we know of, and a normal Apnea Rush makes him capable of unleashing over a hundred punches under five seconds for 5 minutes straight, this allows him to 'melt' walls, metal and even human bones. So an unqualifiable but likely vastly larger amount of punches in under 5 seconds for 5 minutes straight. Can Ikki deal?

 

[KGiffoni]

Nah, i feel like Yujiro's 6th sense would make him have a safer approach.

 

[BakiHanma18]

Nah, i feel like Yujiro's 6th sense would make him have a safer approach.

Wouldn't that be pretty safe? The best defense is a good offense, right? With speed starting as equalized, unless Ikki amps as well, it's straight up impossible for Ikki to actually counter or escape, since the whole point of Apnea Rush is that it's continuous with no opening (hence why the only reason Hanayama escaped was by tanking a few punches and just smashed his face in while he was still punching)

 

[Firephoenixearl]

2. Not really, burden of proof on you to prove all of them are good. I'm telling you to stick to the ones that have feats, but you really don't like that apparently. So yeah bring me proof of every single martial arts in existence being not only combat applicable, but in certain ways superior to every martial arts shown in Baki.

3. Aiki doesn't work with grapplings. It's Shibukawa's skill that can deal with grappling, not Aiki.

Aiki specifically requires physical contact.

Aiki has never shown to work on swords.

4. Wrong again. In that very fight, at no point was Kaku Kaioh blown away when hit with a punch that wasn't in the centre of gravity. He just kept rotating, idk where you got the "blown away is a result of Xiao Lee" and Xiao Lee in its very concept wouldn't work against thrust type of attacks. Xiao Lee is just relaxing your muscless, the more relax your muscles the easier the blade will slip through.

8. Yeah that's better. So there are a bunch of techniques Yujiro can't copy. Those being Trackless Step, Edelweiss sword style, every other sword style (by virtue of being sword styles), Perfect Vision....basically he can't copy anything important.

9. How is saying he lost all 5 senses implying "he lost even abstract senses like awareness and danger sense". And no Yujiro ain't dodging something 200x his speed, just no.

10. He was actually scared of when he was about to take on Kaku's punch. And idk how "in control" somehow means "i will use my best ability, but not my other abilities". If he were in control he wouldn't need to use Demon Back and if he wasn't in control why didn't he add Sangan to Demon Back. No matter how you spin it, no Sangan.

11. Durability doesn't matter, that's what Xiao Lee is for. And Yujiro's durability doesn't matter against a guy who can cut metal with paper.

@Baki

I could go into details as why that would not be enough. By mentioning how people less skilled than ikki beat 10 people 10x faster effortlessly. But i will take the easy way out and say if we somehow assume Yujiro will use those at all, it would be a speed blitz, something that isn't allowed in speed equal if your opponent is faster, like ikki is.

 

[BakiHanma18]

Damn, a speed blitz... what if they are used separately? Again, Hand Pocket is fast enough to essentially outspeed 0.5 Seconds, and Apnea Rush by itself is a hundred punches in under 5 seconds for 5 minutes. Either of them have and merit in use?

 

[Firephoenixearl]

No matter what you say. If you're relying on yujiro being faster it's invalid because yujiro can never be faster than ikki.

Even though as I said above ikki can deal with them rather easily.

 

[BakiHanma18]

What? Why not? Being faster doesn't mean speed blitz automatically, and while I may be willing to overlooking Apnea Rush due to the 10 people 10x faster, Hand Pocket is high and low way beyond that. I'm not so sure Ikki can just simply dodge or block this

 

[Firephoenixearl]

It doesn't have to be a blitz. It's just illogical. Because you're abusing speed equal to create a scenario where "Yujiro is faster than Ikki". Which is plain wrong. This is the same reason why blitzing the faster character isn't allowed. Because we get a completely stupid scenario that shouldn't exist otherwise.

And 10 x 10 feat was done by a girl who is way less skilled than Ikki, was done causally and without speed amps. And Hand Pocket being beyond 10 people at the same time with speed over 10x that of your own seems like massive headcannon. Will need proof for that.

 

[BakiHanma18]

It doesn't have to be a blitz. It's just illogical. Because you're abusing speed equal to create a scenario where "Yujiro is faster than Ikki". Which is plain wrong. This is the same reason why blitzing the faster character isn't allowed. Because we get a completely stupid scenario that shouldn't exist otherwise.
And 10 x 10 feat was done by a girl who is way less skilled than Ikki, was done causally and without speed amps. And Hand Pocket being beyond 10 people at the same time with speed over 10x that of your own seems like massive headcannon. Will need proof for that.

The only time the fight can't be added is if it's a speed blitz victory in the favor of the slower character. This would not be the case, Yujiro is just stat amping, which is allowed under speed equalized, to be faster than Ikki

Okay, I will compile some stuff

 

[Firephoenixearl]

No...you're not allowed to "win via speed" against an otherwise faster opponent in speed equal.

 

[BakiHanma18]

• During a match where speed is equalized, speed amplification techniques are allowed, unless they lead to a victory via Speed Blitz in favor of the slower character.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

*During a match where speed is equalized, speed amplification techniques are allowed, unless they lead to a victory via Speed Blitz in favor of the slower character.

Yes, victory not stomp.

Speed Amp are allowed unless it leads to a slower character winning via speed.

Example. In speed equal i can say "Ikki uses Rasetsu and blitzes Yujiro", but i can't say "Ikki uses rasetsu and blitzes Goku". Because Goku's speed is far beyond Rasetu's speed.

Speed Blitz isn't a stomp in every case, it's a stomp in most cases. Just cus it says "speed blitz" doesn't mean it's reffering to stomp matches. From Speed Blitz' page:

On top of resulting in a stomp/spite match more often then not.

A stomp can be created from a speed blitz, speed blitz itself doesn't mean stomp though.

 

[BakiHanma18]

*During a match where speed is equalized, speed amplification techniques are allowed, unless they lead to a victory via Speed Blitz in favor of the slower character.

Yes, victory not stomp.
Speed Amp are allowed unless it leads to a slower character winning via speed.

Example. In speed equal i can say "Ikki uses Rasetsu and blitzes Yujiro", but i can't say "Ikki uses rasetsu and blitzes Goku". Because Goku's speed is far beyond Rasetu's speed.

Speed Blitz isn't a stomp in every case, it's a stomp in most cases. Just cus it says "speed blitz" doesn't mean it's reffering to stomp matches. From Speed Blitz' page:

On top of resulting in a stomp/spite match more often then not.

A stomp can be created from a speed blitz, speed blitz itself doesn't mean stomp though.

Speed Blitz is the act of one attacking their opponent before they are capable of perceiving or reacting to them. Blitzing is different than outpacing, where a character is simply faster than the other. A blitz is more like an all around outclassing in speed.

Yujiro can amp to be faster

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Yes but the concept remains the same. The reason a speed blitz victory isn't added is because "a slower character is faster than a faster character". Which is plain stupid. Similarly the case here is saying the same just "Not a total outclass of speed, but Yujiro is faster than a faster character".

 

[BakiHanma18]

Yes but the concept remains the same. The reason a speed blitz victory isn't added is because "a slower character is faster than a faster character". Which is plain stupid. Similarly the case here is saying the same just "Not a total outclass of speed, but Yujiro is faster than a faster character".

If Yujiro isn't blitzing, it's not against the rules, that's why both fighters are allowed to speed amp, not just the faster character

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Both characters are allowed to speed amp. But the slower character isn't allowed to gain an advantage.

If yujiro and ikki both had an amp of 50x for example. And both use it, it's ok, because Yujiro's not becoming faster than a faster character.

Speed amps for the slower character can only be used to keep up with the faster character's speed amps, not to gain an advantage. Not to mention if his speed will make him be over the 10 x 10 feat that is pretty outclassing.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

But eh i'll wait for you to prove the speed amp first then continue.

 

[BakiHanma18]

Both characters are allowed to speed amp. But the slower character isn't allowed to gain an advantage.
If yujiro and ikki both had an amp of 50x for example. And both use it, it's ok, because Yujiro's not becoming faster than a faster character.

Speed amps for the slower character can only be used to keep up with the faster character's speed amps, not to gain an advantage. Not to mention if his speed will make him be over the 10 x 10 feat that is pretty outclassing.

Where does it say that? I only see the rule about speed blitzes

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Where does it say that? I only see the rule about speed blitzes

The concept is the same. The difference is just smaller.

I should probably make a thread on it soon, to clarify/reword that.

 

[BakiHanma18]

Where does it say that? I only see the rule about speed blitzes

The concept is the same. The difference is just smaller.
I should probably make a thread on it soon, to clarify/reword that.

If that is accepted, I will concede the point. Until then, the point stands

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

So wait. Say speed is equal and bith characters can amp their speed. Character A is naturally faster then Character B. Character A has a speed amp of times 5 and character B has an amp of times 8. Dies that mean Character B isn't allowed to win in that case?

 

[BakiHanma18]

So wait. Say speed is equal and bith characters can amp their speed. Character A is naturally faster then Character B. Character A has a speed amp of times 5 and character B has an amp of times 8. Dies that mean Character B isn't allowed to win in that case?

Let's say that character A starts at a speed value of 10 units, and B has a value of 5. Speed equalized basically makes it 1-1 (can't remember if A lowers to 5 or if B is raised to 10), so if A amps to 5x and B amps to 8x, B, despite originally being slower, would be faster. So long as B doesn't speed blitz A, the current rule says this is a valid victory.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Can Yujiro even blitz Ikki? From all of his bullshit, that sounds damn near impossible to do.

 

[BakiHanma18]

Can Yujiro even blitz Ikki? From all of his bullshit, that sounds damn near impossible to do.

There's one combo of moves that could, Apnea Rush and Hand Pocket together (Apnea Rush allows the user to hold their breath for an insane amount of time, or 5 minutes under extreme conditions, so the user can punch a hundred times in under 5 seconds, and Hand Pocket, a move that allows Yujiro to outspeed a thought-based ability, 0.5 Seconds). That combo has been banned due to possible blitzing.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

What about separately then together?

 

[BakiHanma18]

What about separately then together?

Separately, Ikki should be able to dodge or block (block would end badly tho) Apnea Rush, but I think Hand Pocket can land a clear hit in its first use (and one hit is all Yujiro needs).