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Let's get this over with. Yujiro Hanma vs Ikki Kurogane.

Btw, Earl will already be busy responding to KG when he gets back, but I had I thought I'm still kinda formulating that I'd like to get the framework out

So Yujiro should have better pinch strength then Sikorsky, as well as better grip strength than both Hanayama and Nomi, so, since he's out skilled so long as Ikki has a sword, but probably not by much (or he's possibly more skilled, that's for Earl and KG to debate), wouldn't the smartest move be to pull a Retsu v Musashi and use a combination of Sikorsky pinch, Hanayama/Nomi grip, and Chiharuism/Chiharu style to let Ikki's blade cut his hand/arm/fingers or anywhere else only to tense his muscles, not allowing Ikki to pull his blade out, effectively making him unable to keep up with Yujiro in skill anymore?
 
I mean, cutting stuff with a leaf is still below cutting stuff with an actual sword mainly because of range so making Ikki swordless is still a great advantage
 
Firephoenixearl said:
While ouma did try to use that move it didn't do much. And ikki can already ignore friction why would it work?
Click to expand...
As I understand it, he doesn't ignore friction, he just as an amazing skill feat that allowed him to greatly mitigate friction. Would he be able to escape something of Yujiro's magnitude? On the one hand, he's got his sword this time as opposed to a piece of paper, but on the other hand, Yujiro's muscles aren't exactly just a piece of steel either.
 
It's actually supposed to ignore "hitting the atmosphere" so basically cause no loss in energy. And the piece of paper is a downgrade of his sword, not upgrade. He was training using something as fragile as paper to cut metal.

Worst case scenario Ikki's sword gets stuck, so Ikki has to stat amp to cut through him.
 
@KG

1. Well we've already argued that and Yujiro was tied with Fugil who got significantly outdone by Ikki in skill. But i am down to argue again if ya want. Bring me your best Yujiro feats.

2. Yes, but it's not good to treat "he knows them" as a skill feat. There are tons of useless ones. You can argue the techniques for each though.

3. It is not that good, just give him something he can't redirect as easily and it's done.

4. Yes but that implication wasn't on someone of Ikki's level. It isn't something he'll be able to use more than once (at most).

5. Ok...?

6 and 7....ok.... not really "arguments" so i'll skip these.

8. Again no. He's not copying the ability to ignore acceleration and friction. Hide from the human mind etc. Learning what plebs took a century to master doesn't somehow make it a good feat when you're dealing with almost hax with skill.

9. It's not better cus it's via magic, i just think it's higher AP with rasetsu.

10. Ikki has an in character 10x amp to his perception speed. But when did Yujiro gain a 10x amp. The best he has is Demon Back which is like 3-4x or so.
 
Firephoenixearl said:
It's actually supposed to ignore "hitting the atmosphere" so basically cause no loss in energy. And the piece of paper is a downgrade of his sword, not upgrade. He was training using something as fragile as paper to cut metal.
Worst case scenario Ikki's sword gets stuck, so Ikki has to stat amp to cut through him.
Click to expand...
I'm not sure if this helps any, but Yujiro's grip far exceeds 100,000 atmospheres by scaling to Nomi

Im a little reluctant to believe that it will actually be that simple, considering the level of skill at play and that one moment of being stuck
 
I mean even then Ikki has much higher lifting strength. (even though his lifting strength stat on the profile is a bit fudged up)
 
Alright, i think i underrated the time it would have gotten for me to come back

Still, it's 10PM now, i'd prefer to argue tomorrow, it's better
 
I'd like to present an argument

First, what would hypnosis do to Ikki? I understand that he has many abilities that can mitigate or even outright negate hypnosis, but if it was a hypnosis that affected all 5 senses, would there be any sense that would be affected in any way? Any sense that either can't fully negate hypnosis or doesn't have any defense against it?
 
Firephoenixearl said:
Hypnosis? Well assuming it would be able to trick his senses at all. It would just be a weaker version of Shizuya Kirihara, who is imperceivable by all 5 senses.
Click to expand...
To clarify, all this hypnosis does is make Ikki think he's fighting and winning against Yujiro, when in all actuality he's not fighting Yujiro at all
 
Well considering the degree of mind hax ikki has to deal with all the time I doubt that would do anything.

But how does it work?
 
Firephoenixearl said:
@KG
1. Well we've already argued that and Yujiro was tied with Fugil who got significantly outdone by Ikki in skill. But i am down to argue again if ya want. Bring me your best Yujiro feats.

2. Yes, but it's not good to treat "he knows them" as a skill feat. There are tons of useless ones. You can argue the techniques for each though.

3. It is not that good, just give him something he can't redirect as easily and it's done.

4. Yes but that implication wasn't on someone of Ikki's level. It isn't something he'll be able to use more than once (at most).

5. Ok...?

6 and 7....ok.... not really "arguments" so i'll skip these.

8. Again no. He's not copying the ability to ignore acceleration and friction. Hide from the human mind etc. Learning what plebs took a century to master doesn't somehow make it a good feat when you're dealing with almost hax with skill.

9. It's not better cus it's via magic, i just think it's higher AP with rasetsu.

10. Ikki has an in character 10x amp to his perception speed. But when did Yujiro gain a 10x amp. The best he has is Demon Back which is like 3-4x or so.
Click to expand...
1. That was arguing only about "pure skill". Yes, i want to argue again, as in i think Yujiro is just as skilled as Ikki.

2. First, he doesn't simply "know them". He mastered every single one, possibly even all the ones that are extinct on modern society. Second, as i said, martial arts in the bakiverse aren't like real life martial arts. Aikido is considered one of the worse martial arts for actual fighting irl, yet on the bakiverse it's waaaaaaaaaaay more useful than its real-life counterpart. So far, we have no example of a thing such as an "useless martial art" in the Bakiverse.

3. Wdym? Aikido isn't limited to punches or kickes because its workings happen through Chi Manipulation. It could work on swords and stuff like that. And Yujiro's should be even superior to Shibukawa's, who is a master at Aikido in particular. It allows him, who is 9-A, to severely hurt people who are 7-C.

4. What Ikki has to counter this technique? You can't just say "Ikki is so skilled he can ignore it" without actually showing how he would possibly do it.

5. I'll touch on this subject tomorrow (yeah i hate it this much, it's just like Ikki's phantom blade, the author loves to keep changing what it is)

6 and 7 weren't meant to be arguments

8. He instantly copied stuff harder than that, with a glance. It's not Martial Art Mimicry, it's Power Mimicry (although it's both). And by the love of god, let's not call Retsu Kaioh and specially Kaku Kaioh "plebs". While ofc both Yujiro and Ikki are basically in another dimension when it comes to skill, both Retsu and Kaku are amongst the most skilled martial artists of the verse and are considered martial art geniuses, they're literally gifted people who do nothing but increase their skills all day for the rest of their lifes. By instance, they're comparable in skill and intelligence to the likes of Doppo Orochi, who is a 10th Dan in Karate and regarded as "The God of War" and "The Sun of Karate".

9. Isn't Rasetsu the 1s transformation that makes you loose all your senses? Or am i mixing something up?

10. Sangan. A amp he got from Orochi, it amps your reaction speed tenfold and also amps your field of view a good lot. Then there are endorphins, near-death amp, cockroach tackle, mach punch, etc etc

 
1. Sure we can leave this for last.

2. Yes but as I said you don't just assume they're all useful. It's a case by case basis, the ones who are have their own techniques. Those are more important factors.

3. Biting is something it can't reflect. And same for sword attacks. Not to mention ikki has energy reflection to even higher levels.

4. That wouldn't work against ikki's precog and analysis. A thrust to the centre of gravity will bypass xiao lee.

8. What harder stuff has he copied exactly? Also even if yujiro copies most of ikki's stuff it'll be useless, without a sword he can't use them.

9. It is, where you not talking about that?

10. Sagan isn't 10x if i recall correctly. It's less than demon back which is 3 times. Gonna need a scan for Sagan's stat amp.
 
1. Ok

2. Alright, i do agree it's a case by case basis. But then i think you also agree that the number of useless martial arts in the Bakiverse are minimum (if there are any).

3. Well yeah, but on the manga it's said that Bite produces "zero energy" and that's why it can't be reflected. While i personally don't think that makes sense, it's obvious the author didn't forget Aiki was a chi-based thing.

4. Why would a thrust to the centre of gravity bypass Xiao Lee?

8. Mastered every single martial art that exists with a glance, including ones that need more than a century of training to fully master. Mastered Udonde god knows how, since it's an extinct martial art, probably by reading about it in a book or something like that.

9. I think AP is pretty useless if you can't hear, feel, see, or anything at all.

10. It's only an amp for reaction speed, unlike Demon Back that is a amp for speed, AP, durability, and whatnot. It boosts Orochi from baseline Supersonic to Hypersonic+ iirc so that's where the 10x comes from. Btw Orochi might be downgraded in speed so it could be an even greater amp than what we currently think it is.
 
Firephoenixearl said:
Well considering the degree of mind hax ikki has to deal with all the time I doubt that would do anything.
But how does it work?
Click to expand...
I'll have to go back and watch, but I think it has something to do with hearing the opponent clap their hands (I'll get the specifics to you in a bit)
 
2. You didn't get my point. Im not saying "there are useless martial arts in baki". Im saying "don't assume all martial arts are useful". So if you want to use the "masters all martial arts", something to back up how hard and effective each of them are.

3. It makes perfect sense tbh. He reflects attacks by (let's say "pushing") in a way to make them take it back. You cannot reflect a grab, a bite etc. The reason why ikki can easily bypass it as it is just a weaker version of what he does with Madoka.

4. Because it would be impossible to rotate to mitigate the damage and being relax would not do anything as a sword would pierce through effortlessly. A sword does not rely on impact, meaning no matter how relax you are, it'll pierce.

8. That's stuff ikki does as well. Doesn't equate to copying any of the stuff i mentioned.

9. When you're ikki, it doesn't matter, 1 sword slice will land no matter what.

10. I believe i've said above but we do not apply multipliers based on scaling. Only stated multipliers.
 
2. Well, cannonically the martial arts are so strong some of them can make 10-C and High 8-C folks fight Yujiro so yeah, they're pretty good to their purposes (the weak overcoming the strong). To master Xiao Lee, by instance, you need more than a century of hard training in order to remove all your natural instincts. Orochi Doppo has done doozens of moves, more than a thousand of times every day for the last 50 years. He is considered a true master of Karate in the verse, and Yujiro is above him.

3. Well yeah, physically speaking it makes sense, but bites do produce energy. Anyways, Ikki having Attack Reflection doesn't mean he can counter it if someone else uses it.

4. As i've said before, swords don't work against Xiao Lee just the same.

8. Yeah, i know he does, but that doesn't come to the case. These martial arts aren't like real-life martial arts, inside them there are abilities gained through skill, similar in essence to the ones Ikki has. And Yujiro masters them effortlessly.

9. I'm sorry? That doesn't make sense. You can't make a rational attack while you have the senses of a dead body, unless you start the attack and go Rasetsu in the middle of it.

10. Welp, then this is an amp that, out of his many other amps, makes you go from being blitzed to blitzing, in reaction speed.
 
2. Those are literally only 2 moves in all of martial arts baki has. Those are the only 2 that allow fighting up to such a level. And Shibuki could never actually fight Yujiro. The rest isn't really anything all that impressive.

3. They produce energy but you can't reflect it, same as how you can't reflect a grab. Producing energy doesn't = reflectable. If someone like Jack could abuse it, Ikki sure as hell can.

4. Yujiro was punched in his centre of gravity while using Xiao Lee, he was sent flying. If it were a sword it would have pierced right through.

8. That's what im saying dude they're both through skill. Yujiro has never copied anything on a similar level to "ignorning friction" or hiding from the mind of the opponent. Him having copied skill based abilities before doesn't mean he can copy any skill based abilties. It's fallacious.

9. Ikki does do that, he fouses on the attack then starts Rasetsu, but can addapt to external factors mid way (like when he used Stella's strike to boost his own AP even though she attacked mid Ittou Rasetsu). He has a dozen other senses like danger, awareness etc.

10. Similar Ikki's reaction amp makes him perceive stuff in slow motion. Besides Yujiro has never used Sangan iirc, completely out of character.
 
I see no proof that Xiao Lee would work against a sword and slashing weapons. All it does is make the body go limp to avoid taking damage against blunt weapons ( such as a punch. ) I'm sorry but you'll need actual scans of it protecting against blades and such whenever it's only worked against punches.
 
I just wrote a big wall of text, then sent it, and it's not showing, at least for me. Can you guys see it?
 
Best I could gather about the Hypnosis

The ability to hypnotize opponents by simply clapping your hands together. Afterwards, the victim's mind is trapped in a vivid hallucination where they imagine the fight going completely in their favor. In reality, they're just attacking empty air, leaving them completely vulnerable to any oncoming attacks.

However, there is a major weakness in this technique, as it can be rendered ineffective if the victim believes that there is no way the fight should be that easy.
 
Wait that was in the Baki 2018. Yeah i remember, it's not that easy though. Iirc that only worked for people who were deluded on winning. You can't put anyone in that and even then, Ikki's dozen other senses will take care of it even assuming it would put him in the illusion.

Rechecked: Yeah it only works with deluded opponents. Because the opponent specifically needs to "want his opponent to be a lot weaker than Dorian actually is". And has Yujiro ever demonstrated this?
 
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