XSOULOFCINDERX
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Then this is still fair if Yujiro has a Wincon.
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Let's get this over with. Yujiro Hanma vs Ikki Kurogane.
- Thread starter XSOULOFCINDERX
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I think so as wellXSOULOFCINDERX said:
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2. I can't give proof that doesn't exist in the manga. But it's implicit that, if all the martial arts showed so far in the series are combat applicable and serve their purposes, all the other ones should also be combat applicable. That's why it's a martial (of or appropriate to war; warlike) art. You're simply trying to dismiss a feat that is very straightfoward. Anyways, it's not even worth arguing this as Yujiro already knows and uses a "perfect" martial art, it's called Udonde, it's explictly said to have no openings and even the likes of Orochi Doppo are helpless against it.Firephoenixearl said:
3. I'll be putting the wiki paragraph here again for reference: " Aiki is a Japanese martial arts principle or tactic in which the defender blends (without clashing) with the attacker, then goes on to dominate the assailant through the strength of their application of internal dynamics or Ki energy to affect techniques. "
A grappling is a physical attack that produces ki energy. It can be reflected. Sword slashes are physical attacks that also produce ki energy. They can be reflected. A bite is a physical attack that produces 0 ki energy, and as such can't be reflected. And no, Aiki doesn't need to have physical contact. I've denoted that in the text.
4. C'mon dude, they literally said he used Xiao Lee. That was the moment Kaku said Yujiro had already mastered Xiao Lee. Getting great knockback is one of Xiao Lee's way to dissipate the energy of the punch. While i do agree with that, Xiao Lee already has solid examples of working against the best swordsman of the verse, so it's also pointless to argue that.
8. I'm not sure, what all these abilities do and what's the explanation behind them? I do agree he can't copy sword styles tho.
9. The author isn't gonna waste narration hype making a list of all the senses Ikki has, that's why he just said the main ones that we know of, at least that's how i interpret it. He can thanks to AP, 6th sense, and whatnot. Ikki could do the same tbh, it's not surprising when we are dealing with characters this skilled.
10. Well yeah, but he was in base and he just got scared because he only sensed the true AP of that attack after it was a few inches away from his face. And using Demon Back doesn't really mean you're not in control, if anything it means the Ogre considers your worthy of being defeated by his true power. Orochi Doppo never had a chance against Yujiro and Yujiro transformed in DB anyways. Yujiro tends to think (with reason) martial arts are a way for the weak to overcome the strong, and as his place in the verse as strongest character he avoids using them unless needed. That's why you won't see him using most of his abilitied in his verse, because no one stands a chance against him anyways.
11. You do know anyone at 7-C could vaporize the Eiffel Tower with a finger flick if they felt like it, right?
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There's one combo of moves that could, Apnea Rush and Hand Pocket together (Apnea Rush allows the user to hold their breath for an insane amount of time, or 5 minutes under extreme conditions, so the user can punch a hundred times in under 5 seconds, and Hand Pocket, a move that allows Yujiro to outspeed a thought-based ability, 0.5 Seconds). That combo has been banned due to possible blitzing.
That's not beyond the 10x 10 feat. Not even close.
That's not beyond the 10x 10 feat. Not even close.
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Add for KG's arguments. I'll answer tomorrow but those arguments are getting worse and worse.
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That's not beyond the 10x 10 feat. Not even close.Firephoenixearl said:
The thought based ability outspeed was also someone slower than him, but it's first showing might actually be a better one (that's the one I've been looking at for using here). I'll get the details for that one to you in a bit
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Actually rasetsu gg is an argument. Im just not using it yet because i wanna have ikki win without it and have them restricted by the end in case of stompKGiffoni said:
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2. First. Unusable argument you're asking me to prove a negative. You gotta prove positives, for why a random martial art like TaiChi for example is extremely good in Baki. Not ask me to "prove why it's not". Burden of proof is on you.
And the 2nd part about this. Is by saying "everything is useful", you're literally implying that basic boxing, karate, taichi, taekwondo etc are all on par with chinese kung fu and Akido in terms of effectiveness in combat. In other words "every martial art is just as useful as the best martial art in baki", otherwise if they aren't as useful, then they're useless because there is a better martial art. Which is plain wrong, we know some martial arts are MUCH better than others in baki.
3. Using the wiki doesn't somehow make it more believable when its plain contradicted by the show. Shibukawa very clearly touches people to redirect their attacks. He doesn't move his hands randomly and everything ends up getting reflected. So again until you prove me that he's not touching any of the characters to reflect their attacks it is a useless point. As for biting, it produces energy, it wasn't reflected. Grappling produces energy, doesn't get reflected. And so on. So putting it on a level of "anything that produces energy can be reflected" is highballing it to oblivion. It is these kinds of NLF things that resulted in Katanagatari's downgrade.
4. Yes he used Xiao Lee so that he wouldn't get damaged. Not "he was flung away because of Xiao Lee". He was send to space because of the energy of that punch, it's just that he did not tank that impact he instead let it flow past him. And show me scans of the Xiao Lee on swords, need to see what kind of attack was used.
8. I assume you mean Trackless Step and Perfect Vision. Trackless Step is moving in ways that makes the brain categorize you as unnecessary information, basically you can't realize you can perceive Ikki (your eyes see him, but your mind doesn't process it, so you don't realize you can see him). Perfect Vision is his precog, Yujiro hasn't precoged anyone to the extent of Perfect Vision i believe (then again Perfect Vision is a sword stealing technique used on ppl).
9. The rest aren't really "senses" though. They're senses by our standards, example the danger sense is because ikki has been at death's door so many times so he now kind of feels that shit coming. Awareness is basically as someone said "he has no blind spots, he sees everything inside the ring" (which they stated would make entering his blind spots useless), there is "the samurai's 6th sense", which basically means he doesn't miss anything that enters his range, no matter how fast, perceivable/unperceivable it is etc. You can't really shut those kinds of things down. Besides as i said, it doesn't really matter even if he shuts these down as i said he does addapt to stuff mid Ittou Rasetsu, so it's not like it matters whether you stick with my interpretation or yours, what he does doesn't change. And no, 6th sense and AP don't let you dodge something which cuts you down before you can even process the info or order your muslces to move. But i'd rather not resort to this.
10. That's not exactly true, Yujiro uses martial arts like boxing and stuff all the time, he used Xiao Lee, he probs used a lot more stuff than i can remember, but that's not the point. And he was still scared of the attack, for a moment he fell back, because he was scared to tank it, why didn't he just use akido? It would have cost him a lot less than falling back in the eyes of tons of ppl which didn't even know he could. I guess getting scared and running away from a clash is way more in character than using martial arts which could get him out of a tough spot....
11. Yes, said people can't get past Xiao Lee. Your point?
And the 2nd part about this. Is by saying "everything is useful", you're literally implying that basic boxing, karate, taichi, taekwondo etc are all on par with chinese kung fu and Akido in terms of effectiveness in combat. In other words "every martial art is just as useful as the best martial art in baki", otherwise if they aren't as useful, then they're useless because there is a better martial art. Which is plain wrong, we know some martial arts are MUCH better than others in baki.
3. Using the wiki doesn't somehow make it more believable when its plain contradicted by the show. Shibukawa very clearly touches people to redirect their attacks. He doesn't move his hands randomly and everything ends up getting reflected. So again until you prove me that he's not touching any of the characters to reflect their attacks it is a useless point. As for biting, it produces energy, it wasn't reflected. Grappling produces energy, doesn't get reflected. And so on. So putting it on a level of "anything that produces energy can be reflected" is highballing it to oblivion. It is these kinds of NLF things that resulted in Katanagatari's downgrade.
4. Yes he used Xiao Lee so that he wouldn't get damaged. Not "he was flung away because of Xiao Lee". He was send to space because of the energy of that punch, it's just that he did not tank that impact he instead let it flow past him. And show me scans of the Xiao Lee on swords, need to see what kind of attack was used.
8. I assume you mean Trackless Step and Perfect Vision. Trackless Step is moving in ways that makes the brain categorize you as unnecessary information, basically you can't realize you can perceive Ikki (your eyes see him, but your mind doesn't process it, so you don't realize you can see him). Perfect Vision is his precog, Yujiro hasn't precoged anyone to the extent of Perfect Vision i believe (then again Perfect Vision is a sword stealing technique used on ppl).
9. The rest aren't really "senses" though. They're senses by our standards, example the danger sense is because ikki has been at death's door so many times so he now kind of feels that shit coming. Awareness is basically as someone said "he has no blind spots, he sees everything inside the ring" (which they stated would make entering his blind spots useless), there is "the samurai's 6th sense", which basically means he doesn't miss anything that enters his range, no matter how fast, perceivable/unperceivable it is etc. You can't really shut those kinds of things down. Besides as i said, it doesn't really matter even if he shuts these down as i said he does addapt to stuff mid Ittou Rasetsu, so it's not like it matters whether you stick with my interpretation or yours, what he does doesn't change. And no, 6th sense and AP don't let you dodge something which cuts you down before you can even process the info or order your muslces to move. But i'd rather not resort to this.
10. That's not exactly true, Yujiro uses martial arts like boxing and stuff all the time, he used Xiao Lee, he probs used a lot more stuff than i can remember, but that's not the point. And he was still scared of the attack, for a moment he fell back, because he was scared to tank it, why didn't he just use akido? It would have cost him a lot less than falling back in the eyes of tons of ppl which didn't even know he could. I guess getting scared and running away from a clash is way more in character than using martial arts which could get him out of a tough spot....
11. Yes, said people can't get past Xiao Lee. Your point?
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2. I don't think there are stronger martial arts in the Bakiverse. All of them give different abilities that can be used differently. If we were to ignore the abilities and just say which is the one that has a better CQC, i'd say it's Udonde since it has no openings. But the things is, let's see what are considered "useless martial arts" in real life, that is, martial arts that don't work so well in actual fights. From reading on r/martialarts, it seems Aikido and some types of Chinese Kenpo fall under this category. Now let's see how they do in the Bakiverse. They're constantly shown to be very combat applicable. By instance, Goki Shibukawa's Aikido allows him attack reflection, what is a reference to real life Aikido's purpose of "defend themselves while also protecting their attackers from injury." Chinese Kenpo gives different abilities based on style, but we also know it's not useless since a young Kaku Kaioh got curbstomped by a Kenpo practitioner that was, physically speaking, way weaker than Kaku himself. The martial arts complete each other in a way none of them are 100% useless, while i understand what you're saying, most of them are different in their own special ways.
3. No, he touches people. Just veeery lightly, and most of the time it's not even him touching them, more like they touching him. Here's a good example of Aiki being used. The bite produces 0 energy and that's why it's the perfect counter for Aiki. This is explictly said in the manga, and as such it's noted on the wiki page too: "The bite is also the antithesis of the technique named Aiki, since the force to attack is 0, the user of aiki cannot redirect it. ". Grapples can also be reflected, that is shown in the fight i linked if you pay attention. It's also explictly shown that Jack couldn't do anything to Shibukawa other than try and bite him since everything else was being flawlessly reflected.
4. Yeah, that's what i said. For the Xiao Lee with swords, here are the important scans. Now, keep in mind, you might argue that "yeah but it left a good cut on him anyways". While that's true. In this example i gave you Retsu's durability was about 2307x below Musashi's AP. In the example of this Vs Match, however, Yujiro not only holds a natural durability advantage but also knows a mastered Xiao Lee, while Retsu's was only an incomplete version.
8. Trackless Step is something like mind manip then? Perhaps sense manip is more adequate? What do you think?
As for Perfect Vision, at least from what i see in his profile, it seems like it has roots in magic. Is that right? If so, i don't think Yujiro can copy it. Anyways, Yujiro has his own AP and Information Analysis
9. I see. For the dodging a "200 times faster than you attack", it's possible if you knew when it's gonna happen and how, but you have to identify it x seconds before it happens, x being the time you need in order to move so the attack won't hit you. It's possible for people this skilled.
10. Yujiro claimed, at the start of the fight, that it would be a fight of "strenght against logic". After Yujiro showed Kaku the fact he mastered Xiao Lee, he said he wouldn't use it ever again. Kaku then claims Yujiro might have mastered a better martial art, and Yujiro punches the ground, breaking the ground of the arena. It's implicit that Yujiro thinks brute strenght will always be above technique. God, he even calls Chinese Kenpo "circus bullshit". It's clear that, at least in that particular fight, he didn't intend to use any techniques and only his genuine strenght.
About Yujiro being in control of the situation, Kaku Kaioh goes as far as saying Yujiro is a lion while everyone else is simply a "prey", including himself.
11. Xiao Lee is created for people who are weak fight the strong. In Xiao Lee, you can tank attacks thousands of times stronger than yourself, specially if you're a master at it. It's only natural that if YOU, the Xiao Lee master, has the durability advantage, your opponent doesn't have a chance to damage you. It's logic. Unless they have a technique that counters it very hard, what Ikki lacks.
3. No, he touches people. Just veeery lightly, and most of the time it's not even him touching them, more like they touching him. Here's a good example of Aiki being used. The bite produces 0 energy and that's why it's the perfect counter for Aiki. This is explictly said in the manga, and as such it's noted on the wiki page too: "The bite is also the antithesis of the technique named Aiki, since the force to attack is 0, the user of aiki cannot redirect it. ". Grapples can also be reflected, that is shown in the fight i linked if you pay attention. It's also explictly shown that Jack couldn't do anything to Shibukawa other than try and bite him since everything else was being flawlessly reflected.
4. Yeah, that's what i said. For the Xiao Lee with swords, here are the important scans. Now, keep in mind, you might argue that "yeah but it left a good cut on him anyways". While that's true. In this example i gave you Retsu's durability was about 2307x below Musashi's AP. In the example of this Vs Match, however, Yujiro not only holds a natural durability advantage but also knows a mastered Xiao Lee, while Retsu's was only an incomplete version.
8. Trackless Step is something like mind manip then? Perhaps sense manip is more adequate? What do you think?
As for Perfect Vision, at least from what i see in his profile, it seems like it has roots in magic. Is that right? If so, i don't think Yujiro can copy it. Anyways, Yujiro has his own AP and Information Analysis
9. I see. For the dodging a "200 times faster than you attack", it's possible if you knew when it's gonna happen and how, but you have to identify it x seconds before it happens, x being the time you need in order to move so the attack won't hit you. It's possible for people this skilled.
10. Yujiro claimed, at the start of the fight, that it would be a fight of "strenght against logic". After Yujiro showed Kaku the fact he mastered Xiao Lee, he said he wouldn't use it ever again. Kaku then claims Yujiro might have mastered a better martial art, and Yujiro punches the ground, breaking the ground of the arena. It's implicit that Yujiro thinks brute strenght will always be above technique. God, he even calls Chinese Kenpo "circus bullshit". It's clear that, at least in that particular fight, he didn't intend to use any techniques and only his genuine strenght.
About Yujiro being in control of the situation, Kaku Kaioh goes as far as saying Yujiro is a lion while everyone else is simply a "prey", including himself.
11. Xiao Lee is created for people who are weak fight the strong. In Xiao Lee, you can tank attacks thousands of times stronger than yourself, specially if you're a master at it. It's only natural that if YOU, the Xiao Lee master, has the durability advantage, your opponent doesn't have a chance to damage you. It's logic. Unless they have a technique that counters it very hard, what Ikki lacks.
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Ugh, the wiki ate my comment, anyway time to rewrite this.
2. Yes but some martial arts being having use at all in battle, doesn't mean all others are, you gotta prove that. As for chinese kenpo that wasn't good proof, if it doesn't allow you to fight stronger opponents it's not martial art.
3. First of all, the wiki says "force" not "energy". The difference betweent the 2 is very important. Force causes motion, grappling and biting have no resultant force and it therefore doesn't cause motion. A sword thrust won't cause motion either, it'll pierce right through. So again show proof of working against swords.
And no he doesn't "touch them very lightly" he redirects their motion to cause them to fall or get hurt. He touches them very much, it has absolutely 0 things to do with KI redirection, it is just basic physics on cracks. A lot of martial arts irl do that, obviously not to that extent because of fiction, but the concept is the same.
4. First, AP and Durability don't matter against Xiao Lee, drop it.
Second Musashi is either trash at realizing how Xiao lee works, or he got CIS'd hard. Those kid of slashes are begging for Xiao Lee to redirect it. Show me it working against a thrust.
8. It's neither he is not manipulating anything. He's just making himself move in very unimportant ways. So your brain doesn't even considering him as worth processing. He basically becomes like a pebble which you don't pay attention to.
9. No, aim dodging doesn't work against living things. Ikki can always fix. And even then you can't move nearly enough out of the way to dodge Ikki's slash before he slashes you. The speed difference is too high to try anything at all. Point is if Ikki uses Ittou Rasetsu it's over.
10. You're proving my point, Yujiro will almost never use these unless he's at basically death's door. He will run away from an attack, get hit, continue fighting for a long time, yet not decide to use martial arts.
What's even the proof for him knowing these techniques?
11. Yes you're still proving my point "AP and Durability don't matter".
And "Unless you have a hard counter". No....pulling a ******* hair bypasses it, being hit into a wall bypasses it, freaking slaps from both sides bypass it. A thrust to the centre of gravity would bypass it just as easily. You can't reflect when there are 2 forces acting on your body (which is why it doesn't work when hit into a wall or slaps). On a thrust, mass proves resistance to being moved, while the force tries to push it, which causes the blade to sink in. Again prove Xiao Lee would work on sword thrusts that is not a slash that a 10y/o kid with 0 experience on martial arts and physics would do. Or even something like a bullet.
2. Yes but some martial arts being having use at all in battle, doesn't mean all others are, you gotta prove that. As for chinese kenpo that wasn't good proof, if it doesn't allow you to fight stronger opponents it's not martial art.
3. First of all, the wiki says "force" not "energy". The difference betweent the 2 is very important. Force causes motion, grappling and biting have no resultant force and it therefore doesn't cause motion. A sword thrust won't cause motion either, it'll pierce right through. So again show proof of working against swords.
And no he doesn't "touch them very lightly" he redirects their motion to cause them to fall or get hurt. He touches them very much, it has absolutely 0 things to do with KI redirection, it is just basic physics on cracks. A lot of martial arts irl do that, obviously not to that extent because of fiction, but the concept is the same.
4. First, AP and Durability don't matter against Xiao Lee, drop it.
Second Musashi is either trash at realizing how Xiao lee works, or he got CIS'd hard. Those kid of slashes are begging for Xiao Lee to redirect it. Show me it working against a thrust.
8. It's neither he is not manipulating anything. He's just making himself move in very unimportant ways. So your brain doesn't even considering him as worth processing. He basically becomes like a pebble which you don't pay attention to.
9. No, aim dodging doesn't work against living things. Ikki can always fix. And even then you can't move nearly enough out of the way to dodge Ikki's slash before he slashes you. The speed difference is too high to try anything at all. Point is if Ikki uses Ittou Rasetsu it's over.
10. You're proving my point, Yujiro will almost never use these unless he's at basically death's door. He will run away from an attack, get hit, continue fighting for a long time, yet not decide to use martial arts.
What's even the proof for him knowing these techniques?
11. Yes you're still proving my point "AP and Durability don't matter".
And "Unless you have a hard counter". No....pulling a ******* hair bypasses it, being hit into a wall bypasses it, freaking slaps from both sides bypass it. A thrust to the centre of gravity would bypass it just as easily. You can't reflect when there are 2 forces acting on your body (which is why it doesn't work when hit into a wall or slaps). On a thrust, mass proves resistance to being moved, while the force tries to push it, which causes the blade to sink in. Again prove Xiao Lee would work on sword thrusts that is not a slash that a 10y/o kid with 0 experience on martial arts and physics would do. Or even something like a bullet.
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Nvm about Hand Pocket and Cockroach Tackle, they'd both blitz the shit outta Ikki. Cockroach Tackle's speed is only 168mph, but it's acceleration is 16,800,000 mph/ms, or 7,510,272,000 m/s^2, so I seriously doubt Ikki can do much of anything about Cockroach Tackle, and Hand Pocket is likely faster, as Yujiro decided to use Hand Pocket to counter 0.5, not Cockroach Tackle
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Acceleration difference?
You do know ikki literally has no acceleration, as in literally goes from 0 to top speed instantly.
Acceleration isn't speed, it doesn't blitz. It just makes it hard to react to and ikki has dealt with basically no acceleration before. That isn't a problem.
You do know ikki literally has no acceleration, as in literally goes from 0 to top speed instantly.
Acceleration isn't speed, it doesn't blitz. It just makes it hard to react to and ikki has dealt with basically no acceleration before. That isn't a problem.
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Right, but this is a speed amp, are you sure Ikki would still be fine?Firephoenixearl said:
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It's not a speed amp, it's just reaching the speed sooner. It doesn't increase it.
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It's noted as a speed amp on his page, and I'm inclined to agree, as he's able to outright blitz Yujiro the first time he uses it, despite being considerably slowerFirephoenixearl said:
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2. I mean, it's not only logic but also supported by real statistics that most martial arts are very effective in combat. I can't proof all of them are top tier, but most are above average, some are top tier, and some are below average, if we were to have base on real life martial arts. What i can guarantee is that, aside from Sumo, all the martial arts shown so far are very effective in combat. As for the Chinese Kenpo example i gave, i think i was a bit confusing, let me rephrase that:
Kaku Kaioh once was a very buff guy who didn't believe in martial arts. He was the strongest in the entire Asia, and a random Chinese Kenpo user that was physically way weaker than this Kaku completly curbstomped him thanks to his martial art.
3. Aiki is directly, like, literally with those words, said to work via chi manipulation. What you're thinking is about "force" and "energy" as physicists terms, but in the context these words were used they were refering to "chi energy", not actual force and energy as in newtons and joules.
4. Except they do? Yujiro defeated Kaku Kaioh's defensive Xiao Lee via brute force. Kaku Kaioh had to use his biological manip and body control to literally cause a clinical death to avoid the last punch from the Ogre, that both Kaku Kaioh and Yujiro claim would have killed him. Meaning: Defensive Xiao Lee can be bypassed if the AP/Durability gap is THAT big (a guy who needs a wheelchair to move and can barely lift chopsticks vs a guy who stops an earthquake with a punch).
As for Musashi, what is CIS?
Anyways, 13yo Baki already could make something similar to Xiao Lee for both sword and fencing users so i'm pretty sure a Yujiro with mastery over Xiao Lee could do something waaaaaay better.
8. The result seems similar to Yujiro's limited invisibility, but they work in different ways. Anyway, can't this technique be avoided by Enhanced Sixth?
9. It does. And you can, but you need to predict the attack x secs before it happening, x being what i explained later.
10. He does. By instance, he used Udonde against Doppo. It's just that, in that specific match, Yujiro wanted to proof the Chinese Kenpo that both Kaku and Retsu were so proud of and its "4000 years of history" isn't anything worth writing home about for Yujiro.
11. Refer to point number 4.
SBA assumes they're fighting at the Central Park, basically an open area with little to no walls nearby.
While that might seem like it's right, the whole thing about Xiao Lee is that it turns your body resistance to 0, literally like a leaf in the wind. And by the love of god, don't call the most skilled swordsman of the verse a "10y/o kid with 0 experience on martial arts and physics"
About the hair thing, that is true. But first Ikki has to identify this weakness and even then, similar to biting, he'd have to come close to Yujiro to make that, what can be deadly versus someone who casually one-shots you. And he has to do this for every single swing, it's not a one-time thing.
Kaku Kaioh once was a very buff guy who didn't believe in martial arts. He was the strongest in the entire Asia, and a random Chinese Kenpo user that was physically way weaker than this Kaku completly curbstomped him thanks to his martial art.
3. Aiki is directly, like, literally with those words, said to work via chi manipulation. What you're thinking is about "force" and "energy" as physicists terms, but in the context these words were used they were refering to "chi energy", not actual force and energy as in newtons and joules.
4. Except they do? Yujiro defeated Kaku Kaioh's defensive Xiao Lee via brute force. Kaku Kaioh had to use his biological manip and body control to literally cause a clinical death to avoid the last punch from the Ogre, that both Kaku Kaioh and Yujiro claim would have killed him. Meaning: Defensive Xiao Lee can be bypassed if the AP/Durability gap is THAT big (a guy who needs a wheelchair to move and can barely lift chopsticks vs a guy who stops an earthquake with a punch).
As for Musashi, what is CIS?
Anyways, 13yo Baki already could make something similar to Xiao Lee for both sword and fencing users so i'm pretty sure a Yujiro with mastery over Xiao Lee could do something waaaaaay better.
8. The result seems similar to Yujiro's limited invisibility, but they work in different ways. Anyway, can't this technique be avoided by Enhanced Sixth?
9. It does. And you can, but you need to predict the attack x secs before it happening, x being what i explained later.
10. He does. By instance, he used Udonde against Doppo. It's just that, in that specific match, Yujiro wanted to proof the Chinese Kenpo that both Kaku and Retsu were so proud of and its "4000 years of history" isn't anything worth writing home about for Yujiro.
11. Refer to point number 4.
SBA assumes they're fighting at the Central Park, basically an open area with little to no walls nearby.
While that might seem like it's right, the whole thing about Xiao Lee is that it turns your body resistance to 0, literally like a leaf in the wind. And by the love of god, don't call the most skilled swordsman of the verse a "10y/o kid with 0 experience on martial arts and physics"
About the hair thing, that is true. But first Ikki has to identify this weakness and even then, similar to biting, he'd have to come close to Yujiro to make that, what can be deadly versus someone who casually one-shots you. And he has to do this for every single swing, it's not a one-time thing.
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Well we don't have an acceleration page so that's why.BakiHanma18 said:
And it doesn't "blitz" it creates that effect because you have less time to react to it. Example if someone starts a car 10 ft away and tries to run you over he can't because it accelerates too slow. If he were to start at top speed he'd run you over.
It isn't faster, it is just you have a lot less time to prepare due to spending less time accelerating. It's not an actual blitz, but it creates a similar effect (ikki did that too when he started learning Edelweiss style which removes the need to accelerate)
And as i said, Ikki deals with i guess it would be infinite actually, acceleration or no acceleration, idk which term to use. Where the attacks do not spend time to get to a certain speed. A feat completely dwafring that. So yes he would deal with it.
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That doesn't help with Hand Pocket, which actually is a purely speed amping, I'll keep looking for feats, as there are still more, but as of right now, the move's natural speed is faster than something that accelerates as fast as Cockroach Tackle does, and it was able to outspeed a thought-based moveFirephoenixearl said:
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It may not be faster though, it may be just another accel amp. And Cockroach Tackle is not fast, it's quick to gain speed.
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It is faster, and I didn't say Cockroach Tackle was fast just now, I said the move's natural speed is faster than something that accelerates as fast as Cockroach Tackle does. A move having insane speed and a move happening very fast (velocity vs acceleration) apply similar effects. As far as it being fast, it was deemed a better move to outspeed the thought-based ability that Cockroach Tackle.Firephoenixearl said:
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I never said it's fast either, what i meant was "natural speed is faster than sth that accelerates so quickly". Acceleration isn't speed. So saying "it's faster than acceleration" isn't really a good comparison.
Even being a little faster than Cockroach Tackle you'd be outspeeding it.
Even being a little faster than Cockroach Tackle you'd be outspeeding it.
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If the speed of Hand Pocket is deemed better to outspeed something that a move that accelerates as quickly as it does, Hand Pocket would have to have some impressive speed is what I'm getting atFirephoenixearl said:
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It really depends on how fast the acceleration of Hand Pocket is. It has to be very comparable at the very least otherwise cockroach tackle would be faster because it would take HP more time to accelerate than it does CT to finish the action.
Also why is it even faster? Ever stated? Choosing to use HP doesn't mean it's faster. He may have just chosen that, not all choices are optimal.
Also why is it even faster? Ever stated? Choosing to use HP doesn't mean it's faster. He may have just chosen that, not all choices are optimal.
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I got nothing for its acceleration, just that it is one of, if not the, fastest movesFirephoenixearl said:
Yujiro was up against a move that allows his opponent to attack when he should be reacting to information, and he chose to outspeed it. Yujiro is one of the most skilled and intelligent people in Baki, a verse full of masters of combat and amazing tacticians. Every move he makes in a fight he absolutely deems to be the "real thing" is optimal, no exceptions. If he chose HP over CT, it's simply due to HP being superior to what Yujiro wanted to achieve
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Not really. If yujiro decides to use a glock that doesn't make it the best gun.
Why would he use the most optimal move in the first place? Yujiro may have no need to use the best of the best.
Why would he use the most optimal move in the first place? Yujiro may have no need to use the best of the best.
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If Yujiro decide to use a Glock in any given situation and he is the most skill gunslinger on the planet, far exceeding the gunplay of every other slinger in history, yes, the Glock would be the beat Gun for that situationFirephoenixearl said:
Because he was literally combating a move that allows someone to skip their own reactionary phase and he was attempting to outspeed
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If it was like that he would've used speed amps too. Sangan, demon back etc etc.
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1) Sangan wouldn't have help at all due to the nature of how 0.5 worksFirephoenixearl said:
2) He did activate DB later, but it wouldn't have helped in that instance
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Speed amps don't work but a fast attack does....
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Because the "fast attack" is a speed amp, I already said thatFirephoenixearl said:
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Yes that's what im saying.
You're saying other speed amps don't work but that one will.
You're saying other speed amps don't work but that one will.
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Sorry, let me explain in greater detail.Firephoenixearl said:
Its not really that they wouldn't help, persay, but more so that they'd be overkill. Sangan and DB would only serve to shorten Yujiro's reactionary phase so that Yujiro could counter, block, or evade Baki's attack even though 0.5 is active (unless 0.5 still would've prevented action as well, making 0.5 much more potent than we previously realized, but there's no concrete proof of that), but that wasn't what Yujiro was trying to do. He wasn't trying to hit Baki DURING 0.5, he was trying to outspeed 0.5., which he was able to do successfully even without Sangan and DB (Yujiro had been hit with it once prior from Baki, and he himself knows the technique and is better with it, so he would know how potent Baki's is and how fast he'd need to be). To continue the Glock analogy, why would the most impressive gunslinger in the world add an ACOG scope, FMJ bullets, and an extended clip to the Glock if he already knows the Glock by itself is good enough?
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Exactly my point. Why would he use his best as opposed to just something that works? That's what im saying to prove that because yuji used it doesn't mean it's better than CT, it just means it's something that would work then and there. It means you can't compare the two.
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But the purpose of both and the mechanic behind them is the same in this situation. They are both speed amping moves that he can use to outspeed 0.5's activationFirephoenixearl said:
If not because its faster or better for outspeeding, why else would he use HP as opposed to CT? CT also gives an AP boost, so he's sacrificing that AP boost for what reason? Logic would dictate that its likely due to HP being faster/better for outspeeding
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@Baki
You didn't get it.
HP is slower.
CT is faster.
Why would he use CT if HP works just fine? Goku doesn't use Instant Transmition to cross the road, is it cus it's not effective? No, but walking works just fine. That logic doesn't work unless Yujiro specifically says that he used HP instead of CT because CT would have not been sufficient.
You didn't get it.
HP is slower.
CT is faster.
Why would he use CT if HP works just fine? Goku doesn't use Instant Transmition to cross the road, is it cus it's not effective? No, but walking works just fine. That logic doesn't work unless Yujiro specifically says that he used HP instead of CT because CT would have not been sufficient.
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@KG
2. Average is not a good skill feat. And there are a lot more non combat applicable martial arts than you think there are. Im just saying, the "master of all martial arts" is not as impressive as you think.
3. Yes but what it does is refer to them with physical terms when used. There exists no "chi force". And i may need the scan on it, i've watched the anime and there was no statement of it working via supernatural means. But doesn't defeat the point, biting bypassed it, grappling would bypass it for the same reason, and swords, similarly he has never shown to bypass something that would cut his hand off if he tried to push it away.
4. Not really, he bypassed it by slamming him into a wall where it was explicitly said he couldn't redirect the force.
The only piercing one of those was the fencing and not only was the guy who used it pretty trash, but Baki very clearly got damage, so that was just him mostly being faster, rather and rotating rather than allowing himself to be rotated. He just hit him back before it could pierce him. Same for the rest of the scans.
8. Nah, to avoid this you'd need specifically some ability to tap into your unconsciousness or literally lack an unconsciousness.
9. Not really as i said. Even if you know an hour later. you dodge, ikki still slashes you because, you know, "he can correct his slice to hit you in your dodged position". It's like saying, if a snail knows you're gonna smash him, he can dodge, no he can't.
10. So basically to ridicule his opponents by using their style against them, not other styles agains them.
11. No, there are buldings, trees, benches etc, push comes to shove even against the ground its the same.
I didn't call Musashi a 10y/o without experience, i called the slash he made that of a 10 year old with 0 experience on how to counter Xiao Lee.
It's not that hard to identify, it's not a very complex move for someone with Ikki's level of analysis.
But again Yujiro would just go for just raw smashing him with demon back which would result in Madoka. Yujiro even against skilled opponents never goes for complex use of techniques as he believes raw power is stronger. So again he has never done so when fully serious i do not see why he would do that now and use a dozen techniques off the bat.
2. Average is not a good skill feat. And there are a lot more non combat applicable martial arts than you think there are. Im just saying, the "master of all martial arts" is not as impressive as you think.
3. Yes but what it does is refer to them with physical terms when used. There exists no "chi force". And i may need the scan on it, i've watched the anime and there was no statement of it working via supernatural means. But doesn't defeat the point, biting bypassed it, grappling would bypass it for the same reason, and swords, similarly he has never shown to bypass something that would cut his hand off if he tried to push it away.
4. Not really, he bypassed it by slamming him into a wall where it was explicitly said he couldn't redirect the force.
The only piercing one of those was the fencing and not only was the guy who used it pretty trash, but Baki very clearly got damage, so that was just him mostly being faster, rather and rotating rather than allowing himself to be rotated. He just hit him back before it could pierce him. Same for the rest of the scans.
8. Nah, to avoid this you'd need specifically some ability to tap into your unconsciousness or literally lack an unconsciousness.
9. Not really as i said. Even if you know an hour later. you dodge, ikki still slashes you because, you know, "he can correct his slice to hit you in your dodged position". It's like saying, if a snail knows you're gonna smash him, he can dodge, no he can't.
10. So basically to ridicule his opponents by using their style against them, not other styles agains them.
11. No, there are buldings, trees, benches etc, push comes to shove even against the ground its the same.
I didn't call Musashi a 10y/o without experience, i called the slash he made that of a 10 year old with 0 experience on how to counter Xiao Lee.
It's not that hard to identify, it's not a very complex move for someone with Ikki's level of analysis.
But again Yujiro would just go for just raw smashing him with demon back which would result in Madoka. Yujiro even against skilled opponents never goes for complex use of techniques as he believes raw power is stronger. So again he has never done so when fully serious i do not see why he would do that now and use a dozen techniques off the bat.
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No? Using the faster move to achieve its intended purpose is quite different then using amps that don't affect what you're trying to do. Picking the faster move obviously what he'd do. Occam's makes this pretty simple: he wanted a fast move, he chose HP over CT, both move are "speed" amps, therefore HP is faster than CT. Yujiro doesn't settle for "okay" when it comes to his moves. He didn't use Benda on Baki even though it would have basically achieved similar results, he used Whip of Mercury, an amped version of Benda, because it was the best. Was it necessary to amp most of the moves he used? No, probably not. Was it optimal? I can't argue with resultsFirephoenixearl said:
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