Legend of Zelda General Discussion Thread

[Chariot190]

Sorry, I should rephrase. How would staring at a 50 different translations of the same reworded story that's already a video game help a single profile?

New lore abilities and other stuff? Straight info that's never been translated into english, of varying relevance, like just enemy or ability slop, to key critical scaling details (the grassy plain in the moon is "Majora's spirit world" a dimension which it created using Skull Kid's memories as a basis. It also did canonically alter the moon so wecan stop just guessing), this one bit of info tells us that yeah, he DID make the dimension (this was never actually said in a single piece of english media except the manga oddly enough but that ain't usable for the game profile), it gives us details on how, why and even the mechanics of it a bit. Prior to this, we legit just guessing. As an fyi, 3 different japanese pieces of media state this, two of which are like straight from Nintendo themselves not a 2nd party publisher.

That's one of the SMALLER relevant bits of info I've found. Each guide so far has had at least something, some have had quite a few. And some shit is actually asinine to the point I'm rubbing my hands like a goddamn super villain knowing I'm going to unleash a goddamn menace into tier whatever the **** he is knowing damn well not one dude is beating his ass without some semblance of smurf hax because of stupid shit that's been dropped in places like the official jpn website, shoga guides, or whatever.

ALSO that's actually funny because two guides actually have "story" sections, which write out chunks of the game in parts with a summary of the story (theyre actually kinda big, the OOT one is like 18 pages long), and gives various random statements like Link having enhanced senses, extra ESP slop (like apparently he could sense Ganon's bloodlust so he rushed to Hyrule Castle after gaining the Sapphire?) or even just the fact he actively trains and it's noted he has unparalled talent and can master stuff in moments (wow neat we can stop just guessing) and other stuff, idk I'm not done, there's actually some Ganon shit in there that clarifies vague stuff in game that would give him one or two new abilities, and that's LITERALLY just from "50 different translations of the same reworded story that's already a video game".

 

[Chariot190]

Thing is I prefer to just... rework the profile entirely. And if my profiles have scans, they are usually long-set game movies or scenes in the references themselves.

I made a yt account to upload clips to link to profiles because imgur sucks. Just uhm, pirate lmao?

 

[TartaChocholate]

Me translating like 15 random japanese guides and magazines to find the secret black boe intangibility statement and other trivial slop

ive only finished 3

You turned into a beautiful dreamy eyed japanese young man with blue hair?

Stupid jokes aside, I can kinda relate to that, but with Final Fantasy crap. I can't remember how much time I wasted looking for the interview that Sephiroth had "ascended" in Advent Children, that Cloud inherited Zack's memories or that Sephiroth had the power of all Materia (Smashtwig handled this last one at least). Interviews are particularly annoying during the PS era games... especially VIII, like talk about something aside the fracking graphics, dammit.

 

[Chariot190]

You turned into a beautiful dreamy eyed japanese young man with blue hair?

yep apparently

 

[Imaginym]

IDK if this was accounted for already, but....



Among other tidbits of info, Bongo Bongo's hands can be frozen solid, becoming encased in ice, via the Ice Arrows.

Our profile notes Bongo Bongo as being able to phase into the ground, hotlinking Intangibility for that. Which makes the somewhat pitiable animation of Bongo Bongo's free hand trying to break the ice the other is in to free the frozen hand, somewhat notable, seemingly.

After all, it can phase into the ground, but not through the Ice from the Ice Arrows? (Though, we don't know if it can phase into regular ice. Maybe it's to do with being shadow & ice having reflective properties?)
Is there some kind of intangibility negation going on? A weakness where only parts of it that can freely move can become intangible?

 

[Chariot190]

Ganon power sealing ig

IDK if this was accounted for already, but....



Among other tidbits of info, Bongo Bongo's hands can be frozen solid, becoming encased in ice, via the Ice Arrows.

Our profile notes Bongo Bongo as being able to phase into the ground, hotlinking Intangibility for that. Which makes the somewhat pitiable animation of Bongo Bongo's free hand trying to break the ice the other is in to free the frozen hand, somewhat notable, seemingly.

After all, it can phase into the ground, but not through the Ice from the Ice Arrows? (Though, we don't know if it can phase into regular ice. Maybe it's to do with being shadow & ice having reflective properties?)
Is there some kind of intangibility negation going on? A weakness where only parts of it that can freely move can become intangible?

I already have that but kind of. Bongo Bongo isn't "phasing", it's a fuckass shadow spirit demon thing, what's happening is it's just becoming a shadow, but that's still NPI.
A lot of stuff has NPI (Not everything, but a good chunk do). Though funny you mention Bongo Bongo, jap lore has Bongo Bongo as an Abstract so that's fun, a bit a of a boost to a few of Link's NPI.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Ganon power sealing ig

I already have that but kind of. Bongo Bongo isn't "phasing", it's a fuckass shadow spirit demon thing, what's happening is it's just becoming a shadow, but that's still NPI.
A lot of stuff has NPI (Not everything, but a good chunk do). Though funny you mention Bongo Bongo, jap lore has Bongo Bongo as an Abstract so that's fun, a bit a of a boost to a few of Link's NPI.

Bongo Bongo sounds like a place Donkey Kong would visit for a Banana Shake.

 

[Imaginym]

Ganon power sealing ig

I already have that but kind of. Bongo Bongo isn't "phasing", it's a fuckass shadow spirit demon thing, what's happening is it's just becoming a shadow, but that's still NPI.
A lot of stuff has NPI (Not everything, but a good chunk do). Though funny you mention Bongo Bongo, jap lore has Bongo Bongo as an Abstract so that's fun, a bit a of a boost to a few of Link's NPI.

Ah cool, so some of Link's stuff gets more NPI?
I feel that I'm bringing this up begrudgingly (Nothing against you or anyone else here.), but how do we know Bongo Bongo isn't solid when it isn't "becoming a shadow"?

Also, profile should change wording if it isn't phasing, right?

Also, what makes JP Bongo Bongo an abstract?

 

[Chariot190]

Ah cool, so some of Link's stuff gets more NPI?
I feel that I'm bringing this up begrudgingly (Nothing against you or anyone else here.), but how do we know Bongo Bongo isn't solid when it isn't "becoming a shadow"?

Few reasons, ignoring statements, when he does he just like, kinda like, literally just becomes a flat shadow, dude looks like a shadow, acts like a shadow, said to be a shadow, etc (when he dies is a blatant example, he like, melts onto the platform and extends past where Link's standing). No reason to assume otherwise.

But it doesn't matter, there's shit calling him noncorporal so.... Literally doesn't matter.

Also, profile should change wording if it isn't phasing, right?

I mean he's a spirit, the reason would need to be changed though given the wording isn't right and is being given for the wrong reasons.

Also, what makes JP Bongo Bongo an abstract?

They just like, literally call him one and also shit like the embodiment of the chaos of the bloodstained history yap and other stuff.
Like really not much to it beyond literally calling him one. Would be Type 2 tho not 1.

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

IDK if this was accounted for already, but....



Among other tidbits of info, Bongo Bongo's hands can be frozen solid, becoming encased in ice, via the Ice Arrows.

Our profile notes Bongo Bongo as being able to phase into the ground, hotlinking Intangibility for that. Which makes the somewhat pitiable animation of Bongo Bongo's free hand trying to break the ice the other is in to free the frozen hand, somewhat notable, seemingly.

After all, it can phase into the ground, but not through the Ice from the Ice Arrows? (Though, we don't know if it can phase into regular ice. Maybe it's to do with being shadow & ice having reflective properties?)
Is there some kind of intangibility negation going on? A weakness where only parts of it that can freely move can become intangible?

This was accounted for already, our Ice Arrows page mentions this.

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

Great news! I got Hyrule Warriors Definitive Edition for Christmas! The Europe version with the actually good cover!

 

[Chariot190]

Great news! I got Hyrule Warriors Definitive Edition for Christmas! The Europe version with the actually good cover!

Show cover.

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

Show cover.

Huh, guess it is the same in America, but it looks like this.

 

[Chariot190]

Oh, why the murica'n slander....

While you're ******* with that, when you get a chance, check item descriptions.

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

Actual image of the base Warrior powerscaling when they added Skull Kid to the roster:

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

"Alright, endgame My Fairy, this is just a little matchup against Dragon Quest, you don't need to get too-"

My Fairy:

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

Actually, it just hit me: Skull Kid + Majora's Mask in Hyrule Warriors has Lv. 2, Lv. 3, and Lv. 4 weapons himself. Would this actually scale to dozens of times stronger than the moon drop feat considering it's the same Skull Kid? It kinda tracks with Impa literally having the OG Magical Sword and Link's Magical Sword both being Lv. 3s.

 

[Nierre]

oh shit i forgot to buy EoW

lemme get it now

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

I wonder if a My Fairy profile is even feasible.

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

VSBW's calmest reaction to people proposing Low Multi Hyrule Warriors:

 

[Nierre]

is it just me or are the boss battles actually kind of difficult?? the totk bosses were so much easier than this lol

anyway this game is crazy bro i made it to the part where Null takes my likeness after I get the three goddess' sanctions. when link saved my ass after fighting echo ganon that was HEAAAAT

 

[Chariot190]

is it just me or are the boss battles actually kind of difficult?? the totk bosses were so much easier than this lol

anyway this game is crazy bro i made it to the part where Null takes my likeness after I get the three goddess' sanctions. when link saved my ass after fighting echo ganon that was HEAAAAT

The game kind of super open ended. A lot of the way I beat certain dungeons or bosses, was different from the "intended" way. They might be harder because you were doing it a alt way, but they're also a tad more challenging because you have a fuckton of options, a lot of which most wouldn't realize that even have.

 

[Nierre]

They might be harder because you were doing it a alt way

Yeah some of these bosses I was definitely doing it in wacky fucky ways lmaoo

Anyway, what are the next steps regarding getting a EoW Zelda profile? Do we got any accepted calcs?

 

[Chariot190]

Yeah some of these bosses I was definitely doing it in wacky fucky ways lmaoo

Anyway, what are the next steps regarding getting a EoW Zelda profile? Do we got any accepted calcs?

I have a few accepted. The main thing atm would be speed I guess? But there's like 4 routes to go about getting the speed value, and idk which one to commit to because they all about the same but I'm not 100% sure which is the highest.

We're looking at Rel to FTL though. Though figuring out how Echo Ganon scales is actually important.

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

We already did that. It would be the same as the real Ganon.

 

[Chariot190]

We already did that. It would be the same as the real Ganon.

Yuh huh. Problem though, it's Ganon without the Triforce of Power. The Ganon doesn't scale to say, OOT Ganon or TP Ganon. To complicate it even further, it's Triforceless Beast Ganon.

 

[Nierre]

He'd then scale to Zelda/Link, no? or whatever Echoes she has that has the highest AP/Speed feat they're capable of tbh if it's a high rating you could argue Triforce Versions should scale above him

 

[Chariot190]

He'd then scale to Zelda/Link, no? or whatever Echoes she has that has the highest AP/Speed feat they're capable of tbh if it's a high rating you could argue Triforce Versions should scale above him

Nah it's more like the exact opposite problem.

Say EoW has a 0.90c feat, this would then scale to literally every ******* game ToP Ganon is in, because ToP Ganon >>>>>>>>>> Echo Ganon.
But... If, for example, Beast ToPless Ganon scales to say 2c via i dont ******* know, young Link? Oracle Link? Whatever. Would we scale EoW to that? I mean maybe, but how strong even IS Topless Ganon? What's his ass scaling off?

I'm not talking about in EoW in particular mind you, I mean in the Oracle games, we have him scaling off Twinrova atm but that's a bit eh, but there's potential for him to be FTL and 6-C I think even without sussy Twinrova scaling? If so, then obviously mid game Zelda would be FTL and 6-C via scaling to him who would of course be equal to his Oracle self. Or whatever.

Essentially, we need to figure out how strong that Ganon even is, there's a 100% chance some stat of some sort will be scaled off him, maybe AP, maybe speed, whatever, it's critical. And the opposite is true, if EOW ends up having a notable feat (probably speed), it then scales to everything else. Though I was looking at something today which might invalidate needing EOW's speed scaling but that's beside the point.

For reference, the best AP feats in EOW only low 7 from what I recall, aka scaling off Ganon is important (Unless we scale Volvagia to OOT Volvagia? In which case that's 6-Bish. But that'd be late/end game, Ganon is mid game).

 

[Lou_change]

Isn't it possible to just say he doesn't scale to normal ganon/ganondorf? Is it not possible that the copy of ganon wasn't made to serve as an exact copy of the original?

 

[Chariot190]

Isn't it possible to just say he doesn't scale to normal ganon/ganondorf? Is it not possible that the copy of ganon wasn't made to serve as an exact copy of the original?

No because they go pretty in depth in that he has the same power, all Echoes do.
Even intelligence.

The caveat is, that isn't Beast Ganon from AlttP, that isn't Ganon from OOT, TP, etc (Well it is, but not for scaling). It is specifically Beast Ganon, without the ToP, which is a pretty huge caveat that end game makes super blatant is important. This has only happened twice, in the Oracle games, which is something we can directly scale this Ganon off. And FSA which like, you probably could but that's technically a different Ganon so i'd be careful of that.

 

[Lou_change]

No because they go pretty in depth in that he has the same power, all Echoes do.
Even intelligence.

Tekom the Zelda copy has a few different things I think. I assumed null could create original things given the original bosses. Also I am pretty sure that Intelligence part narrows it down to FSA ganon given the other triforceless beast ganon was pretty much mindless.

 

[Dust_Collector]

Also I am pretty sure that Intelligence part narrows it down to FSA ganon given the other triforceless beast ganon was pretty much mindless.

FSA Ganon is from another timeline and the reincarnation of TP Ganondorf, we know Downfall Timeline Ganon right down to the very end of it is still the same as he was in ALTTP and even OOT (Before he transformed ofc), only reason he was mindless in the oracle games was because the ritual to revive him was botched at the last minute.

 

[Chariot190]

Tekom the Zelda copy has a few different things I think. I assumed null could create original things given the original bosses.

The original bosses also Echoes. The Zelda copy makes note how she's almost a perfect copy and has Zelda's abilities.

Also I am pretty sure that Intelligence part narrows it down to FSA ganon given the other triforceless beast ganon was pretty much mindless.

FSA Ganon is a different Ganon from a different timeline after TP Ganon died. Oracle Ganon is mindless, but only because Link ****** up the revive. Oracle Ganon is AlttP Ganon (So also OOT Ganon), and later Zelda 1 and Game Over Zelda 2 Ganon, but they just ****** it up and gave him smooth brain. He was fine later tho in Zelda 1/2.

What we're working with, is basically Oracle Ganon without smooth brain, so uh, Oracle Ganon if they didn't **** up, aka AlttP/OOT/1 Ganon without the ToP.


Either way, Echo Ganon makes a throughline of scaling to the older titles, but it's just filled with caveats we haven't sorted out yet.

 

[Chariot190]

As an fyi, EoW already has a timeline placement on Zelda portal, it's after ALBW/Triforce Heroes, but before Zelda 1. So we 100% know what Ganon we're ******* with, as if the copy paste of the Downfall timeline map and other stuff wasn't obvious enough.

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

Yuh huh. Problem though, it's Ganon without the Triforce of Power. The Ganon doesn't scale to say, OOT Ganon or TP Ganon. To complicate it even further, it's Triforceless Beast Ganon.

Beast Ganon and the Triforce of Power have 2 different Keys, remember?

 

[Chariot190]

Beast Ganon and the Triforce of Power have 2 different Keys, remember?

Yep, and I'm saying that scaling him off Twinrova doesn't make sense because that Twinrova isn't the same as from OOT, we do not know if she's the same strength, remember?

Why are you like this.

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

Yep, and I'm saying that scaling him off Twinrova doesn't make sense because that Twinrova isn't the same as from OOT, we do not know if she's the same strength, remember?

Why are you like this.

Base Beast Ganon upscales from literally any version of Twinrova in the timeline.

 

[Chariot190]

Base Beast Ganon upscales from literally any version of Twinrova in the timeline.

Based on what. What statement or feat does he have that would make him upscale automatically.

 

[SilentLyfe]

Isn’t that version of Ganon fearless cause he always used the ToP to transform into beast form? So it’s kinda weird he was summoned that one time in the Oracle games as beast Ganon cause he didn’t have it, unlike ALBW where he was summoned with it. You’d think he be brought back as Ganondorf instead.

 

[Dust_Collector]

Isn’t that version of Ganon fearless cause he always used the ToP to transform into beast form? So it’s kinda weird he was summoned that one time in the Oracle games as beast Ganon cause he didn’t have it, unlike ALBW where he was summoned with it. You’d think he be brought back as Ganondorf instead.

In the downfall timeline Ganondorf permentantly abandoned his gerudo form after beating Link to always remain in his beast form