Legend of Zelda General Discussion Thread

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

i dont think you know what ADHD is dog, that's like, the exact opposite of what they gonna do

They’ll NEVER once get distracted in a dungeon and put down furnishings? Not a once?

 

[Chariot190]

They’ll NEVER once get distracted in a dungeon and put down furnishings? Not a once?

Doing it once ain't furnishing the whole dungeon grrrr

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

It feels like you're trying to poke holes in what I say here.

 

[Chariot190]

It feels like you're trying to poke holes in what I say here.

BECAUSE I AM GRRR

 

[Dust_Collector]

I hope this game gives us tier 0 feats for Moblins

 

[Chariot190]

I dont theyre fuckn ugly
bring back vivi from oracle games

 

[Dust_Collector]

I dont theyre fuckn ugly

Don't be mean to them

 

[Chariot190]

no theyre gross and ugly

 

[Imaginym]

In my personal opinion, if y'all'll forgive me, they often kind of are, even if Nintendo does make an effort to make them "ugly cute".

Although, I've seen so many goblinoids in my lifetime that I'm often indifferent to them. So far, these ones don't seem very distinct, even if seeing their animation & behaviour is mildly interesting.
Although, shoutouts to the species in Skyward Sword that's implied to maybe be able to come back from the dead because of its underwear.

 

[Hypertornado099]

Nah it's the downfall timeline, ya can tell because it has the certified Downfall Ganon design

100% sure its not, they just based his design off of Downfall ganon. Trust me

 

[Imaginym]

Apologies if anyone minds this.
Wondering what folks think of these observations. My current understanding is they seem fairly knowledgeable.

 

[TartaChocholate]

ZELDA GOT HER OWN GAME!
ZELDA GOT HER OWN GAME!
ZELDA GOT HER OWN GAME!
ZELDA GOT HER OWN GAME!

 

[TartaChocholate]

Finally, we have The Legend of Link.

Jokes aside, I'm pretty excited about this, and it's great that Zelda is actually playable in a mainline game (well, she was sort of playable in Spirit Tracks, but it was because she used her soul to possess stuff), too bad it took nearly 40 years.

The Legend of Actually Zelda

 

[Chariot190]

 

[Emerald]

Giants bigger than mountains?
Aren't they already a decent size next to the moon?

 

[Chariot190]

Game model is about 60m~
And the moon has like, literally 34+ different sizes, the moon is something that flatout shouldn't ever be relied on for size thankfully the AP/Range/LS can be obtained without it tho

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

Imagine the movie The Thing except Zelda is there with the Tri Rod so when she kills a Thing she can spawn other Things as her servants which assimilate the real Thing and then she spawns more of the new Thing, and so on

 

[Chariot190]

Imagine the movie The Thing except Zelda is there with the Tri Rod so when she kills a Thing she can spawn other Things as her servants which assimilate the real Thing and then she spawns more of the new Thing, and so on

If you need someone to talk to they offer free psychiatric help

 

[TartaChocholate]

I. myself, am actually happy they are focusing on a different gimmick for Zelda. Tbh if they just had her play as Link it would be pointless to give her the spotlight, not to mention it would kind of undermine Link's talents and all.

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

I. myself, am actually happy they are focusing on a different gimmick for Zelda. Tbh if they just had her play as Link it would be pointless to give her the spotlight, not to mention it would kind of undermine Link's talents and all.

Cadence of Hyrule did this better by having them have different areas of expertise, like Link can use most swords and spears while Zelda can use knives, rapiers, and magic.

We don’t really know how the Tri Rod is gonna work yet, but for now you’re basically not even playing as Zelda, you’re playing as someone who can create Zelda monsters to fight Zelda monsters.

 

[TartaChocholate]

Cadence of Hyrule did this better by having them have different areas of expertise, like Link can use most swords and spears while Zelda can use knives, rapiers, and magic.

We don’t really know how the Tri Rod is gonna work yet, but for now you’re basically not even playing as Zelda, you’re playing as someone who can create Zelda monsters to fight Zelda monsters.

How's Cadence of Hyrule? Have heard of it but never looked into it myself. You pick a character to play the story or you can use more than one at once?

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

How's Cadence of Hyrule? Have heard of it but never looked into it myself. You pick a character to play the story or you can use more than one at once?

It is one of the best Zelda games. If you have no idea what Crypt of the NecroDancer is you’ll want to turn Fixed Beat Mode on, but it’s honestly one of the best Zelda games ever made. In the story mode you can switch characters whenever you want, but in Single Character Mode you can play as just the one.

 

[Chariot190]

Cadence of Hyrule did this better by having them have different areas of expertise, like Link can use most swords and spears while Zelda can use knives, rapiers, and magic.

Link can do all that too tho, probably exponentially better than she can tbh

We don’t really know how the Tri Rod is gonna work yet, but for now you’re basically not even playing as Zelda, you’re playing as someone who can create Zelda monsters to fight Zelda monsters.

Saying this, is like saying "You don't even play as Link! You play as a dude who has a sword!".
Zelda herself doesn't actually have anything, she has holy magic that's useless 90% of the time, THAT's her power, why complain the game about a non-combat character, doesn't have combat options, and instead solves problems with tools?

 

[Imaginym]

 

[TartaChocholate]

I mean, that's kinda the issue when the protag of the Zelda series is consistently portrayed as a master of all: he can fight with any weapon, use whatever artifact he comes across, has a massive arsenal of gadgets to solve puzzles which he can also weaponize, can use magic, can be stealthy if he doesn't have to fight, solves ancient cryptic puzzles and riddles like newspapers crosswords, expert marksman, expert rider, can build stuff almost as well as a friggin Green Lantern, so on, so on.

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

Link can do all that too tho, probably exponentially better than she can tbh

...What? Have you played Cadence of Hyrule?

why complain the game about a non-combat character, doesn't have combat options,

Bingo.

 

[Chariot190]

...What? Have you played Cadence of Hyrule?

Yeah? Im saying Link, as established, can do all that stuff better than Zelda. Except Sacred and Holy Magic.

why complain the game about a non-combat character, doesn't have combat options,

Yeah? That's a good thing, let a game about Zelda, be about Zelda, don't make her something she's not, that undermines not only Link, but her too.

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

Yeah? Im saying Link, as established, can do all that stuff better than Zelda. Except Sacred and Holy Magic.

Not in Cadence of Hyrule, he can't.

Yeah? That's a good thing, let a game about Zelda, be about Zelda, don't make her something she's not, that undermines not only Link, but her too.

What she isn't, is someone who can't fight. The only times she's a non-combatant character is when she has no choice.

 

[Chariot190]

Not in Cadence of Hyrule, he can't.

Cant or doesnt? You think a Legendary Sword dude cant use a knife effectively, or a different type of sword?
He 100% can, he just doesnt because Zelda has to have SOMETHING, so gameplay kicks in and Link gets shafted, but if he has the soul of the hero, he 100% knows how, and is an expert too.

And bruh, you realize this is a mainline Zelda game? Cadence is a spinoff, the way they tackled it in that game is giving Zelda stuff because she has to have something.

What she isn't, is someone who can't fight. The only times she's a non-combatant character is when she has no choice.

Every Zelda except OOT (Sheikah training), ST (Literally dead, possesses armor to fight because she has nothing), and WW (is a fuckn pirate man) can fight.

Every other Zelda actively cant, they cant even roll up to a goon, that isnt what they do. Hell even BOTW Zelda uses tools in AoC (which Link can use, or anyone really, aka the same complaint you seem to have here?).

Half the time she doesnt have a choice, is because she couldnt fight to begin with, like take TP, why didnt she do anything against the shadow beasts and Zant? She watched her guards die, get taken over, and made hostage, because she couldnt do anything, a fact that she tells Midna when she gives her life to her.

Link is a super twink combat legend, Zelda is the "**** you demon king" mcguffin in all but 3 games.

Making a game about Zelda, and staying true to that, where she ISNT some cool warrior, but instead solves problems with the tools she has, not only serves to not take away from Link's purpose (would be dumb if Zelda could fight, and it'd make her look dumb too, like why tf ya getting caught by goons then?) but stays consistent with her lore and makes it endearing too, showing that even Zelda can be a hero if just given a chance and the tools, using her WISDOM to solve issues.

Idk man, I think theyre going about it in the best way possible, only thing I'd tack on is maybe implement her sacred magic somehow? Maybe let her amp her goons? Or Sacred Bow later on?

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

Cant or doesnt? You think a Legendary Sword dude cant use a knife effectively, or a different type of sword?
He 100% can, he just doesnt because Zelda has to have SOMETHING, so gameplay kicks in and Link gets shafted, but if he has the soul of the hero, he 100% knows how, and is an expert too.

And bruh, you realize this is a mainline Zelda game? Cadence is a spinoff, the way they tackled it in that game is giving Zelda stuff because she has to have something.

BotW brain has gotten to you. Link never even uses a rapier (or knives) until those games or since.

Every Zelda except OOT (Sheikah training), ST (Literally dead, possesses armor to fight because she has nothing), and WW (is a fuckn pirate man) can fight.

Every other Zelda actively cant, they cant even roll up to a goon, that isnt what they do. Hell even BOTW Zelda uses tools in AoC (which Link can use, or anyone really, aka the same complaint you seem to have here?).

…You didn’t even mention Cadence of Hyrule on that list. Or even the regular Hyrule Warriors. Or Zelda’s Adventure or Wand of Gamelon or the animated series.

Can use all Runes, has Link’s motorcycle, has the Light Bow “Oh, those were all just tools.”

Half the time she doesnt have a choice, is because she couldnt fight to begin with, like take TP, why didnt she do anything against the shadow beasts and Zant? She watched her guards die, get taken over, and made hostage, because she couldnt do anything, a fact that she tells Midna when she gives her life to her.

Link is a super twink combat legend, Zelda is the "**** you demon king" mcguffin in all but 3 games.

Making a game about Zelda, and staying true to that, where she ISNT some cool warrior, but instead solves problems with the tools she has, not only serves to not take away from Link's purpose (would be dumb if Zelda could fight, and it'd make her look dumb too, like why tf ya getting caught by goons then?) but stays consistent with her lore and makes it endearing too, showing that even Zelda can be a hero if just given a chance and the tools, using her WISDOM to solve issues.

Idk man, I think theyre going about it in the best way possible, only thing I'd tack on is maybe implement her sacred magic somehow? Maybe let her amp her goons? Or Sacred Bow later on?

Do you think Link doesn’t solve problems with the tools he has? That’s, like, the one thing he does as much as combat. We already know that “even” Zelda can be a hero, especially considering “even” Yves can be a hero.

 

[Chariot190]

BotW brain has gotten to you. Link never even uses a rapier (or knives) until those games or since.

"The past two mainline games have gotten to you where he does the thing"
Yuh huh, wonder why?
And wdym "since", TOTK was the last ******* game

Now couple that with the fact every Link is an expert with every weapon or object he touches, canonically just excels at picking up weapons, etc, what are you even trying to say? The master of all cant or isnt established at using a specific type of sword?

…You didn’t even mention Cadence of Hyrule on that list. Or even the regular Hyrule Warriors. Or Zelda’s Adventure or Wand of Gamelon or the animated series.

Of course not? Theyre spinoffs, noncanon or actual dogshit, why tf would I mention wand of Gamelon wtf? And the reg HW Zelda has a bunch of combat training from Impa, hence the whole Sheik thing, she'd be an outliier too.
Even if I did that still would be a minority.

Can use all Runes, has Link’s motorcycle, has the Light Bow “Oh, those were all just tools.”

Yes, quite literally. She uses Sheikah tech to fight, because she cant herself.
Link can ALSO do that, in fact BOTW is him doing exactly that?

Why is it ok for AoC Zelda to be tied to items anyone can use, Link included given he literally has, but suddenly it's bad?

And the bow I mentioned, Zelda having a sacred magic bow IS a pretty established concept, hopefully they give her one late game.

Do you think Link doesn’t solve problems with the tools he has? That’s, like, the one thing he does as much as combat.

Yeah, he can, Link is a super cool awesome warrior twink. And?

Zelda has always focused on wisdom or sacred magic.

We already know that “even” Zelda can be a hero, especially considering “even” Yves can be a hero.

Yeah, she can, adjacently, just helping Link. She's never actually had her own adventure and saved the day where she did the majority of the work or got the last laugh. She's helped, and has been integral, but never whole ass quest.

What even are you complaining about? That Zelda isnt suddenly a super warrior god, can do everything Link can, or that Link could do it too and that's somehow bad when he's always been able to do anything she could except sacred stuff?

 

[Imaginym]

Honestly, it might be interesting if they gave Zelda some kind of wisdom-based tool.

Copying things & using those copies, those Echoes, does require problem-solving skills, but that isn't the only way to allow intelligence to be applied.

Previous LoZ games have employed music, which is strings of notes. Inputs.
But if we're discussing EoW from the perspective of the protagonistic Triforce bearer's application of their "gift", then where is the "Courage" in playing music? In most cases, Link had little to fear, even from the ramifications.
Fear of being teleported? Fear that a piece of the sign being reconstructed might hit him? Fear of beginning the cycle terrorizing Termina anew?
Fear of what he might face in the next Silent Realm, maybe?

It was an interesting mechanic, but whether it was through an Ocarina, howling or a harp, it usually didn't feel like something to associate Courage with to me.

But why not use music? How to craft it, especially in a way that is harmonic or good, would require "Wisdom", no?

Or drawing? I assume at least 1 DS game toyed with this. Memorization of symbols, & drawing them would be another way of playing with knowledge.
Admittedly, they might overlap depending on what Echoes end up existing -Although an analysis I've seen suggests Tri & the Tri Rod can only maintain 3 or 4 at a time so far?- since both Echoes & drawing & music are just placing something in different arrangements. Where do you put the next item, colour or note?

To put it another, more metaphorical way, it's hard to decide what goes on a blank canvas, & with so little knowledge about it so far, Echoes of Wisdom feels a lot like a blank canvas with what it will do.
But surely there's more ways to do Wisdom, & not all the things Link has done involved "Courage", no? Cough The Power Glove cough.

 

[Chariot190]

Bro, what are you talking about, every Link ever has had to deal with courage, the very fact he gets his life uprooted and is forced to go on a quest and fight fuckass demons, gods and if he fails, everyone dies or the world gets taken over or any other cataclysmic event, is where the "courage" comes from. Like take WW Link for example, bro just livin his life then 5 minutes later he's having to re-enact Shadow Moses and gets his face caved in by a 7'5'' giant.

The courage aspect has never been tied to an item, it's the fact he's doing it at all that makes him courageous.

You could argue any sort of "what if wisdom" tool Zelda could or should have, but they cant do them all, they went with this, it fits, what's the issue?

 

[Imaginym]

Bro, what are you talking about, every Link ever has had to deal with courage, the very fact he gets his life uprooted and is forced to go on a quest and fight fuckass demons, gods and if he fails, everyone dies or the world gets taken over or any other cataclysmic event, is where the "courage" comes from. Like take WW Link for example, bro just livin his life then 5 minutes later he's having to re-enact Shadow Moses and gets his face caved in by a 7'5'' giant.

The courage aspect has never been tied to an item, it's the fact he's doing it at all that makes him courageous.

You could argue any sort of "what if wisdom" tool Zelda could or should have, but they cant do them all, they went with this, it fits, what's the issue?

I MEANT the music specifically.

What ties playing music into his role as the hero? Aren't these items often specifically destined for the hero, including some of the instruments?

The greater whole, that Link does the quest is courageous, no doubt, but the playing of music often seems less tied to courage.

Many of the other items are meant for use in deadly dungeons, or in the face of battle. Even something like the Hookshot, to have you pulled dozens of meters in an instant, possibly with bottomless pits or lava awaiting you if you mess up.... Using something like that takes courage.

But a musical instrument use's circumstances do not call for Courage, just like if some hypothetical someone with the strength to scale a mountain, move boulders, kill a dragon barehanded drinks a tankard of beer, that doesn't correlate drinking beer with strength. Nor would say, a map he might choose to use to help scale the mountain, or a sleeping powder that helps weaken the dragon; It is a valuable tool, but that does not mean its use necessitates or indicates strength.


So why are these instruments designated to the bearer associated with Courage, when that isn't necessarily something their useage associates or indicates? Though he possesses & displays that merit elsewhere & through other things, doubtlessly, some of those items do not involve the merit ascribed to the hero, which is jarring when they are designated specifically for said hero.

If Courage is this hero's gift & virtue, why are items destined for that hero specifically not ones that make use of that Courage?

To answer your question of "they went with this, it fits, what's the issue?", I had said "Honestly, it might be interesting if they gave Zelda some kind of wisdom-based tool." because as you may intuit I'd like it if Zelda had more than just the Tri Rod gimmick for this game.


So why SHOULDN'T Zelda (The individual) use music when a hero less fit for its use has done so?

Also, I think it could be argueed that in theory, doing what is necessary despite fear could also be ascribed to Wisdom. If you know it must be done & that you can succeed, & no one else will try, or no one else will succeed, then it is simple reason to take on the task, fear or not. If the alternative is the death of yourself & others, it is foolish not to. Admittedly, Link doesn't always have that knowledge, though.

 

[Chariot190]

I MEANT the music specifically.

What ties playing music into his role as the hero? Aren't these items often specifically destined for the hero, including some of the instruments?

Not at all, the OOT wasnt fabled, he just took it and ran with it, as an example.

Only the Harp was iirc, and yeah, sure, weird, but Zelda has a music theme in most games.

What ties a sword to being courageous? A bow? A big ass ball and chain? Nothing, they're a means to an end, fact is not one item except the MS, ties into courage, because the courage aspect, is the very game itself.

The greater whole, that Link does the quest is courageous, no doubt, but the playing of music often seems less tied to courage.

Because it isnt man? Just a theme the games have? Aint tied to anyone really.

Many of the other items are meant for use in deadly dungeons, or in the face of battle. Even something like the Hookshot, to have you pulled dozens of meters in an instant, possibly with bottomless pits or lava awaiting you if you mess up.... Using something like that takes courage.

A bottle doesnt take courage. A bombchu doesnt take courage (they even got minigames in populated places), a magic scale doesnt take courage, a ball and chain dont take courage, etc.

Sure ya can tie some items into being "courage" adjacent, but like, that isnt actually the point or intent?

But a musical instrument use's circumstances do not call for Courage, just like if some hypothetical someone with the strength to scale a mountain, move boulders, kill a dragon barehanded drinks a tankard of beer, that doesn't correlate drinking beer with strength. Nor would say, a map he might choose to use to help scale the mountain, or a sleeping powder that helps weaken the dragon; It is a valuable tool, but that does not mean its use necessitates or indicates strength.

Yeah?

So why are these instruments designated to the bearer associated with Courage, when that isn't necessarily something their useage associates or indicates? Though he possesses & displays that merit elsewhere & through other things, doubtlessly, some of those items do not involve the merit ascribed to the hero, which is jarring when they are designated specifically for said hero.

The OOT for example wasnt, hell it's Zelda's actually, Link was just forced to take it.

If Courage is this hero's gift & virtue, why are items destined for that hero specifically not ones that make use of that Courage?

The only music item i can think of, that is specifically intended for the hero, was the harp, and it was more just a key that lead to a super scary af realm where ya get hunted by ghost mfs or Fi stuff.

So why SHOULDN'T Zelda (The individual) use music when a hero less fit for its use has done so?

Because it's a stretch and not the angle theyre aiming for?
Evidently, theyre tackling a more "think" outside the box angle for Wisdom, given just the trailer focused on Zelda getting past and solving issues through indirect means.
and it wouldnt really work, a game focused on music is gonna need rhythm aspects to it, yet theyre using a 2D topdown action engine, not really the genre for that. plus why retread gimmicks?

Also, I think it could be argueed that in theory, doing what is necessary despite fear could also be ascribed to Wisdom. If you know it must be done & that you can succeed, & no one else will try, or no one else will succeed, then it is simple reason to take on the task, fear or not. If the alternative is the death of yourself & others, it is foolish not to. Admittedly, Link doesn't always have that knowledge, though.

Bro, the literal definition ofcourage
"the ability to do something that frightens one; bravery.
strength in the face of pain or grief."

The literal definition of courage, is gonna be tied to the courage dude, not wisdom.

I legit dont get the argument, "courage" for Link is the quest itself.
None of his stuff is tied to the actual concept, the Triforce's aspects are metaphorical, to be exact, it's what the wielder deems most important and what aligns best, hell it's why Ganon, the genius wizard who gaslights, manipulates, knows a bunch of stuff, runs a whole race, etc, and more, has Power, even tho he's 100% smarter than Zelda, because power more important to him.
You could argue ANYTHING is Wisdom, like why isnt Zelda beating goons into submission with rhetoric, or math, or stealth only, or etc. Fact is they just didnt do a specific angle, what's wrong with that? They're still doing it in a way that adheres to established concepts and not suddenly making her a warrior?

 

[Imaginym]

Not at all, the OOT wasnt fabled, he just took it and ran with it, as an example.

Only the Harp was iirc, and yeah, sure, weird, but Zelda has a music theme in most games.

What ties a sword to being courageous? A bow? A big ass ball and chain? Nothing, they're a means to an end, fact is not one item except the MS, ties into courage, because the courage aspect, is the very game itself.

I disagee. A sword, a bow, & a ball & chain are all weapons. To go into battle with.
Arguably, the MS is meant for courage, because it is specifically the bane of evil's blade. You do not take the MS -With or without the exertion removing it from the pedestal may take- & use it only for clearing bamboo, but because it will be used to face evil which would do harm.

Because it isnt man? Just a theme the games have? Aint tied to anyone really.

A bottle doesnt take courage. A bombchu doesnt take courage (they even got minigames in populated places), a magic scale doesnt take courage, a ball and chain dont take courage, etc.

Isn't there only like, 1 Bombchu Minigame place per game? & I'd call someone who uses explosives for a gambling method pretty gutsy.

Sure ya can tie some items into being "courage" adjacent, but like, that isnt actually the point or intent?

But a mere Bottle is a mundane tool, scarce or not, the Ocarina was pivotal, as was The Wind Waker.

The OOT for example wasnt, hell it's Zelda's actually, Link was just forced to take it.

& yet it is essential, & an heirloom passed down, but this time, not to another royal family member, but the hero of time, as if by predestination, no?

Because it's a stretch and not the angle theyre aiming for?
Evidently, theyre tackling a more "think" outside the box angle for Wisdom, given just the trailer focused on Zelda getting past and solving issues through indirect means.
and it wouldnt really work, a game focused on music is gonna need rhythm aspects to it, yet theyre using a 2D topdown action engine, not really the genre for that

So many Zelda games had ways to play songs & make music. But to your credit, each game recognized only a limited few, predetermined songs.
Also, if it's a stretch, then it isn't thinking outside the box to employ it anyway?

Bro, the literal definition ofcourage
"the ability to do something that frightens one; bravery.
strength in the face of pain or grief."

The literal definition of courage, is gonna be tied to the courage dude, not wisdom.

But a typical hero of a story often does that because they must, not necessarily because they want to, even if want is sometimes the reason.
As you yourself said:

Bro, what are you talking about, every Link ever has had to deal with courage, the very fact he gets his life uprooted and is forced to go on a quest and fight fuckass demons, gods and if he fails, everyone dies or the world gets taken over or any other cataclysmic event, is where the "courage" comes from. Like take WW Link for example, bro just livin his life then 5 minutes later he's having to re-enact Shadow Moses and gets his face caved in by a 7'5'' giant.

The courage aspect has never been tied to an item, it's the fact he's doing it at all that makes him courageous.

It takes bravery & courage to do something despite fear, but it takes wisdom to recognize what can be done, by whom, why, when & how.
& if the alternative to not doing the quest is death, the end of the world, etc. then is it truly a choice? I'd say it takes Wisdom to recognize that one has no alternative but to take the quest on.

I legit dont get the argument, "courage" for Link is the quest itself.
None of his stuff is tied to the actual concept, the Triforce's aspects are metaphorical, to be exact, it's what the wielder deems most important and what aligns best, hell it's why Ganon, the genius wizard who gaslights, manipulates, knows a bunch of stuff, runs a whole race, etc, and more, has Power, even tho he's 100% smarter than Zelda, because power more important to him.

Genuinely speaking, no offense meant, this is an interesting case. (Although, I do wonder where the claim that what piece of the Triforce they bear comes from what they value.)
Are The Triforce Bearers not bearing gifted pieces of The Triforce, split into Courage, Wisdom & Power from the Goddesses embodying those things?
If someone is born a Triforce Bearer, & what they have from it is something they value, is what they will come to value predetermined?

You could argue ANYTHING is Wisdom, like why isnt Zelda beating goons into submission with rhetoric, or math, or stealth only, or etc. Fact is they just didnt do a specific angle, what's wrong with that? They're still doing it in a way that adheres to established concepts and not suddenly making her a warrior?

What's "wrong" is an admittedly slight wrong (Hah. A "slight slight".) for me. I think it'd be interesting & fitting if music or other Wisdom-adjacent things were implemented into EoW, rather than simply cloning stuff with a rod. Ostensibly, previous games have done it, & in ways that aren't connected to the piece of the Triforce the wielder bears; If music need not be connected to Courage for Link to use it, then in theory, it could be done for Zelda even if it doesn't require Wisdom, no?

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

& yet it is essential, & an heirloom passed down, but this time, not to another royal family member, but the hero of time, as if by predestination, no?

It wasn't passed down, tho. Link wasn't meant to have it at all, but the circumstances necessitated it. Originally the plan was for Link to reunite the stones and Zelda would open the Door of Time, but Ganon's sudden attack forced Impa to take the princess and run, and Zelda had to leave the Ocarina so that Link could open the door himself.

 

[Chariot190]

I disagee. A sword, a bow, & a ball & chain are all weapons. To go into battle with.

The act of going into battle is. They themselves, not really.

Like what do you want me to say here? You're looking for stuff that doesn't exist. That isnt the intent behind courage or why he has those items. Theyre a means to an end, the actual "courage" has always been the quest.

Arguably, the MS is meant for courage, because it is specifically the bane of evil's blade. You do not take the MS -With or without the exertion removing it from the pedestal may take- & use it only for clearing bamboo, but because it will be used to face evil which would do harm.

Yeah and i said the MS. And that's only indirectly, and because it has established lore basically saying as much.

Isn't there only like, 1 Bombchu Minigame place per game? & I'd call someone who uses explosives for a gambling method pretty gutsy.

So? IIt's not a feared or scary thing in context. And it's a chuck-e-cheese ass minigame kids can play.

But a mere Bottle is a mundane tool, scarce or not, the Ocarina was pivotal, as was The Wind Waker.

So?
A bottle that has sacred repelling magic.


Being pivotal isn't relevant, EVERY item is. Could Link beat the Water Temple without the iron boots, zora scale and blue tunic? No, he couldnt, yet none are tied to courage, nor even combat.

& yet it is essential, & an heirloom passed down, but this time, not to another royal family member, but the hero of time, as if by predestination, no?

Yeah no, he just got it, and used it, because why not?
If Ganon didnt attack at that time, he'd never have even got it, Zelda would've just used it to open the door instead and he'd have kept using the FO.
And he already had a magic ocarina that worked for 90% of stuff, was the fairy ocarina predestined?

This is kinda what I mean, youre making connections and seeing stuff that aint actually there.
also nothing in zelda is actually 100% predestined, it's why we have so many timeline splits, at least to a degree anyway

So many Zelda games had ways to play songs & make music. But to your credit, each game recognized only a limited few, predetermined songs.
Also, if it's a stretch, then it isn't thinking outside the box to employ it anyway?

Ok but why? Why music? Like your logic is music = wisdom, sure, but so is a bunch of other things. Why focus on a topic done a bunch and associated with Link, courage or not, in a game about Zelda?
and it's nintendo, they not gonna make a gimmick theyve done 10 times, it's why they keep changing how shit plays or why we dont have a new fzero

But a typical hero of a story often does that because they must, not necessarily because they want to, even if want is sometimes the reason.
As you yourself said:

It takes bravery & courage to do something despite fear, but it takes wisdom to recognize what can be done, by whom, why, when & how.
& if the alternative to not doing the quest is death, the end of the world, etc. then is it truly a choice? I'd say it takes Wisdom to recognize that one has no alternative but to take the quest on.

Ok but like, that isnt how Zelda treats it? You realize you are ACTIVELY arguing "Being courage should be associated with wisdom, not courage", like man what do I even say that?

And see look, exactly, ya can stretch anything into "Wisdom" if you try hard enough. Zelda never once establishes that's what it means by wisdom.

Genuinely speaking, no offense meant, this is an interesting case. (Although, I do wonder where the claim that what piece of the Triforce they bear comes from what they value.)

As just one example
"If the heart of the one who holds
the sacred triangle has all three
forces in balance, that one will
gain the True Force to govern all.
But, if that one's heart is not in
balance, the Triforce will separate
into three parts:
Power, Wisdom and Courage.
Only one part will remain for the
one who touched the Triforce...the
part representing the force that
one most believes in." - OOT

Are The Triforce Bearers not bearing gifted pieces of The Triforce, split into Courage, Wisdom & Power from the Goddesses embodying those things?
If someone is born a Triforce Bearer, & what they have from it is something they value, is what they will come to value predetermined?

No. Like they do embody it, but that's usually tied directly to their belief.

Like yeah, Ganon does embody power, but he has it because he believes in power above all.

What's "wrong" is an admittedly slight wrong (Hah. A "slight slight".) for me. I think it'd be interesting & fitting if music or other Wisdom-adjacent things were implemented into EoW, rather than simply cloning stuff with a rod. Ostensibly, previous games have done it, & in ways that aren't connected to the piece of the Triforce the wielder bears; If music need not be connected to Courage for Link to use it, then in theory, it could be done for Zelda even if it doesn't require Wisdom, no?

I mean yeah, but why? Why make the 2.5D puzzle game about wisdom and solving stuff through indirect means or smarts, a music game? Tbh I think youre focused on the item, and not what she's doing with it.

Yeah idk i like ya dude but this feels like just arguing to argue, imo what theyre doing is fine, let's complain once the game actually comes out and they dont touch on her magic at all, not before when so far it looks consistent with lore and not undermining anyone.

 

[Imaginym]

It wasn't passed down, tho. Link wasn't meant to have it at all, but the circumstances necessitated it. Originally the plan was for Link to reunite the stones and Zelda would open the Door of Time, but Ganon's sudden attack forced Impa to take the princess and run, and Zelda had to leave the Ocarina so that Link could open the door himself.

1. "And another thing you need...is the treasure that the Royal Family keeps along with this legend... The Ocarina of Time!" — Princess Zelda (Ocarina of Time)
2. ↑ "Ganondorf's target was one of the keys to the Sacred Realm...the hidden treasure of the Royal Family... The Ocarina of Time!" — Impa (Ocarina of Time)
3. ↑ "I'm going to tell you the secret of the Sacred Realm that has been passed down by the Royal Family of Hyrule. Please keep this a secret from everyone..." — Princess Zelda (Ocarina of Time)

What do you mean it wasn't passed down? I suppose in the sense there was no formal ceremony in Link obtaining it, you mean?

 

[Chariot190]

It was def passed down,


I think he thought you meant passed down to Link tho, that was a coincidence.