League of Legends: Darkstar & cosmic court revisions

[Sevil Natas]

Again, no timeframe. There's nothing suggesting they devour "all of existence" in a single gulp. They devour universes slowly, that's the more consistent interpretation to consider. Ezreal saying that a corruptant is going to devour "all of existence" doesn't automatically mean he means corruptants can one-shot the multiverse.

Rhaast destroys the entrails, not the realities themselves. Don't twist the statements to suit your personal interpretations.

yet to still back that up with any evidence, i get the feeling that you have no idea what you're talking about.
monarchs main argument is that the darkstars, feed planets & stars to the darkstar god and then that god destroys the universe
but i've already adressed that, stop repeating the same argument because it doesnt even work and it even creates inconsistencies, like how the hell are the corruptants supposed to be a threat to the entire multiverse if the best they can do is slowly Destroy galaxies to end universes

 

[Sevil Natas]

I suggest tagging Monarch himself, as well as the staff that agreed with his analysis on the downgrade thread and see what they have to say
.

monarch retired, and i already called the staff that agreed with him.

 

[Sevil Natas]

Bump

 

[JohnHendrix212]

yet to still back that up with any evidence, i get the feeling that you have no idea what you're talking about.

The evidence is in the statements themselves. Really, this comes out as disingenuous. You haven't brought up anything new to the table that Monarch hasn't debunked in the last thread. Your "evidence" is basically that the Cosmics/Corruptants can multiverse/universe bust based on approximations that doesn't have anything holding it up other than assumptions.

The wiki has always been conservative in its way of choosing the methods for determining powerlevels to avoid overblown ratings. The Corruptants slowly devouring everything in the universe is in line with Cosmics' feats of tier 3/4 creation. Absolutely nothing beyond that whatsoever.

The "devour all of reality" don't refer to instant events.

monarchs main argument is that the darkstars, feed planets & stars to the darkstar god and then that god destroys the universe

No, his main argument was that there was no timeframe for most of the statements referring to the destruction of creation (at least as far as I see it), that's why he leaned towards determining their strength based on their actual showings, which is within the confines of tier 3 and below. The Dark Star being the one to destroy universes is only secondary.

stop repeating the same argument because it doesnt even work and it even creates inconsistencies, like how the hell are the corruptants supposed to be a threat to the entire multiverse if the best they can do is slowly Destroy galaxies to end universes

You're literally just circlejerking the same arguments that got debunked in the last thread without giving anything new to the table (LoR has nothing new to consider). You're the last person to call me out on "repeating" my points, no offense.

The Corruptants are a threat to the multiverse because they can devour large swathes of heavenly bodies, and eventually will end universes. There's nothing on their individual statements that says they can destroy universes.

 

[JohnHendrix212]

Might as well pick apart these so-called "evidence" while I'm at it.

"It turns out the scythe was evil and wants to annihilate all reality. Who could've guessed?"

here rhaast states that he intends to destroy all reality and its not via feeding anything to the darkstar, since there's no proof that he does that, as he is in an alternate dimension far away from the darkstar itself.

So, him stating he wants to destroy all of reality equals him factually being able to do it now? Do you have a method or timeframe for this? None? Ok.

"The entrails of countless realities are shattering in my wake!"

rhaast now further in the game (since he only says the last quote during his first move) flat out says that he shattered realitys (interpretation could vary here, as the statement sounds multiversal in nature since its refering to the present not the past but i wont go there to avoid controversy).

Npwhere near multiversal in nature, lol. As I've said, Rhaast destroys the ENTRAILS of realities, meaning he's destroying heavenly bodies, not the realities themselves. This is obvious. And this is assuming he isn't merely being arrogant and interprets everything he does as "destroying the entrails of realities".

"Nobody devours all of existence on my watch! I live in there."

As Monarch has already made clear about this particular statement, no timeframe or method whatsoever.

"I will rend this universe with sharpened claws and consume the whole of this terrible existence."

now both of these have something to do with devouring existence, but it is probably not the darkstar god that is doing this, to prove that the corruptants could devour stuff without the darkstar, look at the cho'gaths bio, he's been stated to devour stuff via the black hole inside him, not the darkstar, and if you look at shyvana's, she's saying that she would consume existence not the dark star god, again this all proves that they are capable of universal destruction on their own,

Shyvana (and the other Corruptants) can most certainly devour universes. There's just not enough evidence at all that hint on them one-shotting universes. That said, the evidence for the contrary is overwhelming. They devour heavenly bodies until nothing is left in a universe.

"I've destroyed realities. What threat is this beast?"

now to this, you might be wondering why i am including threshs quote to this when i already estabilished he could destroy the universe via feeding the darkstar, well this is because seemingly eveyone from the previous threads on this topic ignores the context of the statement, this is said when thresh is attacking baron nashor, as a result this being a referral to the darkstar destroying universes is very unlikely as thresh here is flat out comparing his own power to that of the barons, why would thresh refer to his "god" destroying something as part of his own power, it wouldnt make any logical sense.

Which part of that statement is a solid evidence for Thresh one-shotting universes? "I've destroyed realities" could mean he can do it in one blow, or he's done it overtime. Their consistent feats overwhelmingly references the latter method. Thresh destroys realities the same way other corruptants do, and it isn't in one blow.

now even if that is true (which it isnt because it's baseless and relies on the darkstar being fed which i debunked earlier)
this wont affect their AP, all these feats are tier 2 in nature, since they involve universes, realitys, all of existence etc,
so they're still tier 2 no matter if they are done overtime or not.

That's not how it works. Just because their statements references universes/realities doesn't mean the context refers to tier 2.

this one is by far the easiest to debunk, because for 1, they already have, refer to rhaast & threshs statement for proof
2, they cant do that in the event horizon universe because there are forces that could stop them, I.E the Cosmic Court

They have destroyed realities before, just not in the way you're interpreting it. Also, Rhaast and Thresh's statements doesn't provide any legitimate proof of them busting universe in one go.

As for your second point, sure.

as far as i see it, darkstar corruptants & the cosmic court should be rated as "At least Low 2-C" for the evidence i provided above and the possibility of them being higher since the "all of existence" statements could be referring to something more than 1 universe as well as rhaasts statement
edit: after some discussion, I consider 2-A to be a more accurate rating, as ezreals statement is referring to the entire multiverse for reasons below

Not even remotely enough evidence for them to be 3-A, much less Low 2-C, unless we employ wonky and frankly overblown interpretations of the statements.

2-A is even more ridiculous. Nothing in Ezreal's line remotely hints of them being able to bust the multiverse individualistically. You're assuming that Ezreal is referring to a single corruptant being able to do that, when in reality, he says this to every Dark Star skin, most likely meaning that it's a group effort. And again, no timeframe or method at all.

Everything in the OP is rife with assumptions and nothing solid at all. Everything's been addressed in the downgrade thread.

 

[Sevil Natas]

The evidence is in the statements themselves. Really, this comes out as disingenuous. You haven't brought up anything new to the table that Monarch hasn't debunked in the last thread. Your "evidence" is basically that the Cosmics/Corruptants can multiverse/universe bust based on approximations that doesn't have anything holding it up other than assumptions.

The wiki has always been conservative in its way of choosing the methods for determining powerlevels to avoid overblown ratings. The Corruptants slowly devouring everything in the universe is in line with Cosmics' feats of tier 3/4 creation. Absolutely nothing beyond that whatsoever.

The "devour all of reality" don't refer to instant events.

this is like saying all of DMC merging feats are invalid because they have no timeframe, you're the one who's making assumptions here, you're saying that the darkstars when it comes to destroying universes, just slowly devour planets & crap and thats somehow supposed to be enough,

and even if "devouring all of existence" isnt instant, 2-A feats overtime are still 2-A, that how its treated anyway

No, his main argument was that there was no timeframe for most of the statements referring to the destruction of creation (at least as far as I see it), that's why he leaned towards determining their strength based on their actual showings, which is within the confines of tier 3 and below. The Dark Star being the one to destroy universes is only secondary.

quote from monarchs conclusion in the OP :

Conclusion
Conclusion? The Dark Star and its servants are not each capable of destroying all of existence on one single blow. The "devour all of existence" statement Ezreal makes, and the "destroyed realities before" of Thresh do not refer to instant events, they refer to how the Dark Star and its servants are steadily moving across the universe, devouring everything that exists in it one by one, and feeding it to the Dark Star. Eventually, the entire universe would be erased, consumed by the living black hole singularity that is the Dark Star god, reducing the entire universe, matter, time (inspired by the idea that black holes consume space-time as they grow) and thought (because everything is erased and can't think), to nothing. They have done this to previous universes before, and now they are trying to do it to the Cosmic's universe, and then they will move on to the next, eventually devouring "all of existence".

You're literally just circlejerking the same arguments that got debunked in the last thread without giving anything new to the table (LoR has nothing new to consider). You're the last person to call me out on "repeating" my points, no offense.

because you're repeating an argument that's completely outlandish, that wasnt even monarchs full argument, the no timeframe thing was used to back up the fact that they feed the darkstar. so its doesnt work without the latter

The Corruptants are a threat to the multiverse because they can devour large swathes of heavenly bodies, and eventually will end universes. There's nothing on their individual statements that says they can destroy universes.

yes because devouring large heavenly bodies is somehow supposed to be threat to a universe, let alone the muliverse

So, him stating he wants to destroy all of reality equals him factually being able to do it now? Do you have a method or timeframe for this? None? Ok.

yes, coupled with his other statements its safe to assume yes

Npwhere near multiversal in nature, lol. As I've said, Rhaast destroys the ENTRAILS of realities, meaning he's destroying heavenly bodies, not the realities themselves. This is obvious. And this is assuming he isn't merely being arrogant and interprets everything he does as "destroying the entrails of realities".

so you're saying rhaasts statement is referring to him specifically shattering little bits of universes from 2-B range?
listen, entrails doesnt mean infinitesimal aspects of your self, it just means your insides, the statement itself is probably referring to stuff that composes realitys
for example : space & time would be there, because both are technically inside realitys

As Monarch has already made clear about this particular statement, no timeframe or method whatsoever.

Spawned from the remnants of a star system crippled by famine, Cho'Gath is driven to feed on any celestial body that crosses his path. These feasts swirl into the twin black holes at his heart—as endless and ageless as his hunger.
there you go method & timeframe

Shyvana (and the other Corruptants) can most certainly devour universes. There's just not enough evidence at all that hint on them one-shotting universes. That said, the evidence for the contrary is overwhelming. They devour heavenly bodies until nothing is left in a universe.

no it really isnt, there's no evidence suggesting they cant destroy universes, you're saying just because they go around devouring star systems & crap they arent capable of universes even though they have blatant universal statements, **** most corruptants dont go around one shotting galaxies even tho they're prefectly capable of doing so, do we downgrade them from 3-C based on that fact? even though lux's "i've erased galaxies with a thought" statement is very blatant?

Which part of that statement is a solid evidence for Thresh one-shotting universes? "I've destroyed realities" could mean he can do it in one blow, or he's done it overtime. Their consistent feats overwhelmingly references the latter method. Thresh destroys realities the same way other corruptants do, and it isn't in one blow.

nope, their methods of slowly destroying celestial bodies wouldnt mean that they destroy universes by destroying celestial bodies. as again there's no proof that they do that.

That's not how it works. Just because their statements references universes/realities doesn't mean the context refers to tier 2.

yes they do, there's alot of statements linking realities to 4D structures
"Time, space, reality - we shall consume all." for example

They have destroyed realities before, just not in the way you're interpreting it. Also, Rhaast and Thresh's statements doesn't provide any legitimate proof of them busting universe in one go.

again this is not how things are treated here, you cant just dismiss blatant universal statements because there's no timeframe, if so ALOT of other verses would be downgraded as a result,

2-A is even more ridiculous. Nothing in Ezreal's line remotely hints of them being able to bust the multiverse individualistically. You're assuming that Ezreal is referring to a single corruptant being able to do that, when in reality, he says this to every Dark Star skin, most likely meaning that it's a group effort. And again, no timeframe or method at all

yes? he is referring to a single corruptant when he says that,
just because he says that to evey dark star, doesnt mean its a group thing, what is even the logic behind that?

 

[Sevil Natas]

here's some supporting evidence that they could destroy universes instantly

"Why erase everything at once, when it can be savored."

"Just a snap of the wrist... and everything's gone."

all these quotes are from jhin
you could see & listen to them in the LoL fandom here
now i know these were brought up in the previous thread and it was dismissed because everything could mean anything
but i think context matters here and it'll help us determine what is meant by "everything"
the darkstars regularly travel between universes and galaxies, and some are even the size of a galaxy
so "everything" meaning galaxy or galaxies is very unlikely, because they regularly travel between them, imagine referring to your own house or your hometown as everything in the context of the statements, it just wouldnt make any sense
i think "everything" should be referring to the universe, at the very least

 

[JohnHendrix212]

this is like saying all of DMC merging feats are invalid because they have no timeframe, you're the one who's making assumptions here, you're saying that the darkstars when it comes to destroying universes, just slowly devour planets & crap and thats somehow supposed to be enough,

and even if "devouring all of existence" isnt instant, 2-A feats overtime are still 2-A, that how its treated anyway

The very point of the downgrade thread is to downgrade their rating mainly because all of their supposed feats were determined to be overtime in the first place. So no, overtime doesn't equate to having the same rating is blowing shit up in one blow.

Yes, the Dark Stars devour heavenly bodies until nothing is left in a universe, and yes that's enough. A universe isn't infinite.

quote from monarchs conclusion in the OP

How is this even relevant? So, they can destroy universes without the Dark Star, sure. There's just not nearly enough evidence to support your claim that they can one-shot universes.

because you're repeating an argument that's completely outlandish, that wasnt even monarchs full argument, the no timeframe thing was used to back up the fact that they feed the darkstar. so its doesnt work without the latter

It's either I, or you that's misunderstanding Monarch's arguments, but regardless, the fact stands that Monarch's argument mainly focuses on the fact that there's no timeframe or method about the "destroying all of existence" bit. Nothing but assumptions on your end. Monarch's conclusion at least have decent backings from the very same statements your verily trying to use as evidence.

yes because devouring large heavenly bodies is somehow supposed to be threat to a universe, let alone the muliverse

Yes, eating large swathes of the universe is indeed a threat. Why are you treating these universes as infinite? Every Dark Star has infinite hunger and energy, and they don't stop destroying shit. They're a threat to universes with that method.

yes, coupled with his other statements its safe to assume yes

nope, not even close. Assumptions doesn't equate fact.

so you're saying rhaasts statement is referring to him specifically shattering little bits of universes from 2-B range?
listen, entrails doesnt mean infinitesimal aspects of your self, it just means your insides, the statement itself is probably referring to stuff that composes realitys
for example : space & time would be there, because both are technically inside realitys

Now that you mention it, Rhaast's line about destroying entrails might actually refer to the leftovers of already shattered realities. Entrails: Intestines or organs/Innermost part of something, especially when removed or exposed. One thing's for sure, he isn't destroying realities, if you can read, then you can understand that much.

So, now you're suggesting he's destroying concepts like time and space, instead of the far more plausible possibility that he's destroying heavenly bodies? And you say I'm assuming too much.

Spawned from the remnants of a star system crippled by famine, Cho'Gath is driven to feed on any celestial body that crosses his path. These feasts swirl into the twin black holes at his heart—as endless and ageless as his hunger.
there you go method & timeframe

Method and timeframe for destroying universes, supposedly in one blow as you're suggesting. It doesn't exist, so I know you can't provide it.

no it really isnt, there's no evidence suggesting they cant destroy universes, you're saying just because they go around devouring star systems & crap they arent capable of universes even though they have blatant universal statements, **** most corruptants dont go around one shotting galaxies even tho they're prefectly capable of doing so, do we downgrade them from 3-C based on that fact? even though lux's "i've erased galaxies with a thought" statement is very blatant?

No. We go by the clearer method that has more weigh in the overall narrative. The "blatant universal statements" gives no timeframe or method other than that they've done it, or they're going to do it. That's not gonna be enough. That's why the downgrade thread existed in the first place. It's more likely that the "destroying all of existence" bit refers to the actual feats within their bios, which is tier 3/4. Everything else is assumption after assumption.

Them destroying galaxies is considered fact because it falls in line with the rest of their actual feats and bios. Destroying universes in one blow? not so much. Lux erasing galaxies with a thought doesn't suddenly make her universal.

nope, their methods of slowly destroying celestial bodies wouldnt mean that they destroy universes by destroying celestial bodies. as again there's no proof that they do that.

The narrative that they destroy heavenly bodies to destroy universes is heavily more plausible than them one-shotting universes, which is nothing but assumption.

There's no proof they destroy heavenly bodies as a means to destroy universe, but there's no proof of them one-shotting universes either, unless we wank the statements to the highest interpretations. We refer to the former because it's in line with their descriptions and bios. We tend to choose solid facts rather than approximations.

yes they do, there's alot of statements linking realities to 4D structures
"Time, space, reality - we shall consume all." for example

Destroying abstract concepts such as time, space, etc is merely a byproduct of destroying universes. When they finish up devouring everything in a universe, that universe would cease to exist, therefore, they technically also consumed time, space, reality.

Also, notice the line says "We", not "I".

again this is not how things are treated here, you cant just dismiss blatant universal statements because there's no timeframe, if so ALOT of other verses would be downgraded as a result,

...This is literally what the downgrade thread was all about. You can't call yourself a universe buster if you destroy galaxy clusters to destroy universes. Statements in themselves aren't reliable, they have to have a corresponding feat, or a timeframe and method.

yes? he is referring to a single corruptant when he says that,
just because he says that to evey dark star, doesnt mean its a group thing, what is even the logic behind that?

The fact that he says that to every Dark Star skin doesn't mean they can individually destroy "all of existence". It's more of a generalization, Ezreal sees a Dark Star, he immediately relates it to devouring creation. It's not solid proof, and Ezreal himself isn't reliable.

And again, as I've been saying, no timeframe or method.

"Why erase everything at once, when it can be savored."

"Just a snap of the wrist... and everything's gone."

Both are too vague to consider.

Your argument is basically just assumptions and more assumptions, nothing new at all. Monarch's arguments still hold true.

 

[Sevil Natas]

at this point, i have nothing more to say but some small clarifications, you keep repeating the same exact things that i proved wrong so many times, you keep asserting that they destroy universes by slowly devouring smaller things with literally no evidence and that they have no timeframe, which again, isnt enough to disprove blatant universal statements, and are somewhat implied to be instant from jhins quotes and that they have no methods which is even more absurd because both shyvana & ezreal state that they devour entire universes (like cho'gath does to planets) then we have rhaast which is destroying countless realities passively and yes destroying everything thats inside a reality would destroy the reality itself, as that would include space & time, im just gonna wait for staff evaluation at this point

as for clarifications:

Entrails: Intestines or organs/Innermost part of something, especially when removed or exposed. One thing's for sure, he isn't destroying realities, if you can read, then you can understand that much.

So, now you're suggesting he's destroying concepts like time and space, instead of the far more plausible possibility that he's destroying heavenly bodies? And you say I'm assuming too much.

yep, as those are inside a reality, which would be part of its entrails

Destroying abstract concepts such as time, space, etc is merely a byproduct of destroying universes. When they finish up devouring everything in a universe, that universe would cease to exist, therefore, they technically also consumed time, space, reality.

Also, notice the line says "We", not "I".

no. it wouldnt, time & space would still be there, how is destroying the physical matter in a universe supposed to affect time or space?
also way to miss the entire point of that post

The fact that he says that to every Dark Star skin doesn't mean they can individually destroy "all of existence". It's more of a generalization, Ezreal sees a Dark Star, he immediately relates it to devouring creation. It's not solid proof, and Ezreal himself isn't reliable.

it is a generalization because all of them scale to each other and he is reliable as he regularly travels between universes and he knows what he's talking about when it comes to other lore

 

[JohnHendrix212]

at this point, i have nothing more to say but some small clarifications, you keep repeating the same exact things that i proved wrong so many times, you keep asserting that they destroy universes by slowly devouring smaller things with literally no evidence and that they have no timeframe, which again, isnt enough to disprove blatant universal statements, and are somewhat implied to be instant from jhins quotes and that they have no methods which is even more absurd because both shyvana & ezreal state that they devour entire universes (like cho'gath does to planets) then we have rhaast which is destroying countless realities passively and yes destroying everything thats inside a reality would destroy the reality itself, as that would include space & time, im just gonna wait for staff evaluation at this point

I'm repeating Monarch's points, which you fail to debunk still.

Your arguments basically consist of assumptions "oh he said that, so it must be true" type of deal, which is nonsense. Am I supposed to take your word for it just because you insist on these things when a far more solid evidence exist?

yep, as those are inside a reality, which would be part of its entrails

Destroying the entrails don't equate to destroying the whole thing. Please stop with this. This is basic English.

no. it wouldnt, time & space would still be there, how is destroying the physical matter in a universe supposed to affect time or space?
also way to miss the entire point of that post

Do you have a timeframe or method of how they're going to devour time and space? If not, this is irrelevant.

Also, this is Thresh's line, so the "we" there most likely refer or include the Dark Star itself, which is the one that can actually devour time and space, and universes.

What point am I missing?

it is a generalization because all of them scale to each other and he is reliable as he regularly travels between universes and he knows what he's talking about when it comes to other lore.

This is illogical for many reasons. You don't suddenly upgrade an entire batch of characters based on an in-game line that doesn't at all have any additional context to support it being true. And it's quite a huge upgrade at that.

I guess with this line of thinking, we can scale Odyssey Jinx to Rhaast because Rhaast has a line where he was competitive with her. It's ridiculous. Again, no timeframe, which is my point.

For the most part, I think Monarch still makes sense.

 

[JohnHendrix212]

Yes, I suppose the staff will have to evaluate this.

For the record, I'd love to have a LoL upgrade, but this thread almost seems like a copy of the arguments that opposed Monarch's arguments and got shot down. I'd rather have an honest rating than a high rating that has nothing but assumptions as its backbone.

 

[Sevil Natas]

Your arguments basically consist of assumptions "oh he said that, so it must be true" type of deal, which is nonsense. Am I supposed to take your word for it just because you insist on these things when a far more solid evidence exist?

if anyones argument is based on assumptions, its yours
you're saying that the darkstars go devour celestial bodies slowly and that somehow destroys the universe, with nothing to back up any of those claims.

Destroying the entrails don't equate to destroying the whole thing. Please stop with this. This is basic English.

okay what if you destroy all the entrails of a human, what will be left? just skin tissue, which isnt much the same thing goes with realities, if you destroy all it compositions then there will be nothing left.

Do you have a timeframe or method of how they're going to devour time and space? If not, this is irrelevant.

Also, this is Thresh's line, so the "we" there most likely refer or include the Dark Star itself, which is the one that can actually devour time and space, and universes.

What point am I missing?

that post was intended for proving that realities are Tier 2 structures in LoL, it isnt the only one btw, we have pulse fires referring to realities as timelines
and yes WE DO, they devour it via their black holes (which isnt the dark star god btw, im referring to the black holes in them, or the ones that they create, refer to cho'gaths statement for it)

This is illogical for many reasons. You don't suddenly upgrade an entire batch of characters based on an in-game line that doesn't at all have any additional context to support it being true. And it's quite a huge upgrade at that.

I guess with this line of thinking, we can scale Odyssey Jinx to Rhaast because Rhaast has a line where he was competitive with her. It's ridiculous. Again, no timeframe, which is my point.

For the most part, I think Monarch still makes sense.

what the hell are you even saying here? they already scale to each other regardless of ezreals statement, im just saying that since all of them scale to each other, ezreals statement is referring to them individually, because thats what he does,

 

[Sevil Natas]

bump

 

[Sevil Natas]

bump

 

[Elizhaa]

I am more or less neutral on the changes.

 

[JohnHendrix212]

if anyones argument is based on assumptions, its yours
you're saying that the darkstars go devour celestial bodies slowly and that somehow destroys the universe, with nothing to back up any of those claims.

You're literally just grasping at straws at this point.

Your whole argument hinges on the assumption that all the statements about destruction of all creation are instant events, which is nothing but absurdly overblown interpretation of the statements in question, as there's no timeframe or method to consider. Taking into account that there's an actual explanation that's more likely to be the case, as it's in line with their actual bios and what they do.

Yes, they slowly devour celestial bodies until nothing is left in a universe. The statements themselves, which are full of tier 3/4 stuff, and nothing about tier 2 and up, backs this argument up quite perfectly.

okay what if you destroy all the entrails of a human, what will be left? just skin tissue, which isnt much the same thing goes with realities, if you destroy all it compositions then there will be nothing left.

Lol what? This logic fails you.

If you destroy a human's intestines with a shotgun shell, it doesn't automatically destroy the person's entire body, just the innards and some muscle and bone.

Assuming we take Rhaast's line at face value, him saying he shatters the "entrails" of realities just means he destroys celestial bodies. I'm at a loss how you could even interpret that as being remotely close to universal, much less 2-A.

that post was intended for proving that realities are Tier 2 structures in LoL, it isnt the only one btw, we have pulse fires referring to realities as timelines
and yes WE DO, they devour it via their black holes (which isnt the dark star god btw, im referring to the black holes in them, or the ones that they create, refer to cho'gaths statement for it)

What? Are you interpreting realities as multiverse or something? I'm pretty sure realities there refers to singular universes. The LoL cosmology itself in its entirety is tier 2. Realities = universes, All of Creation/Existence = 2-A

Also, they devour celestial bodies. You have yet to provide solid evidences for them devouring entire universes, much less a multiverse. Again, regurgitating the same statements isn't gonna work.

what the hell are you even saying here? they already scale to each other regardless of ezreals statement, im just saying that since all of them scale to each other, ezreals statement is referring to them individually, because thats what he does,

I'm saying we don't upgrade a roster of characters a significant amount based entirely on bare statements topped with layers of assumptions. Especially since there's a believable alternative to how they destroy universes that's actually in line with how they operate.

Also, assuming Ezreal refers to them individually is absurd. He clearly says that line as a generalization for all Dark Stars, not individually.

 

[Sevil Natas]

You're literally just grasping at straws at this point.

Your whole argument hinges on the assumption that all the statements about destruction of all creation are instant events, which is nothing but absurdly overblown interpretation of the statements in question, as there's no timeframe or method to consider. Taking into account that there's an actual explanation that's more likely to be the case, as it's in line with their actual bios and what they do.

Yes, they slowly devour celestial bodies until nothing is left in a universe. The statements themselves, which are full of tier 3/4 stuff, and nothing about tier 2 and up, backs this argument up quite perfectly.

execpt there's literally no proof that thats how they destroy the universe. you're saying that your interpretation is far more valid with nothing to back up why its more valid, we know they destroy planets & stars, but that doesnt mean thats how they destroy the universe. infact i found more LoR quotes on the fandom that disprove this specifically :
"They callously pull at the threads of reality, tearing it asunder..."
(you gotta select the cosmic exile tab to view the quote, if you're not on the skins section scroll down and you'll see it)
this is a quote from cosmic exile riven, directed at the dark star corruptants, they tear the fabric of reality apart, destroying it, nothing about
devouring celestial bodies here.
this quote is further supported by Lux's:
"The celestial court- mewling deities swaddled in the tattered fabric of space-time, cowering from annihilation's embrace."
and rhaasts :
"The geometry of space bends, and breaks, and bleeds!"

Lol what? This logic fails you.

If you destroy a human's intestines with a shotgun shell, it doesn't automatically destroy the person's entire body, just the innards and some muscle and bone.

uhh what? if you destroys all the entrails of a then that would be all the muscles & bones & all organs, as those are inside the body & are part of its entrails, as this is statement is referring to all of realities entrails. not some limited part like your asserting here, with no evidence.

Assuming we take Rhaast's line at face value, him saying he shatters the "entrails" of realities just means he destroys celestial bodies. I'm at a loss how you could even interpret that as being remotely close to universal, much less 2-A.

again, what? you do realize the statement is "The entrails of countless realities are shattering in my wake!" right? the shattering of all those realities literally happened at the exact same time, you're literally suggesting, again with no evidence what so ever, that rhaast is only referring to a few planets & stars that he destroyed, from 2-B range if you dont realize how stupid that sounds then idk what to tell you, and the statement is 2-B btw not 2-A on its own.

What? Are you interpreting realities as multiverse or something? I'm pretty sure realities there refers to singular universes. The LoL cosmology itself in its entirety is tier 2. Realities = universes, All of Creation/Existence = 2-A

huh? no i'm not saying realities are mutiverses, im just saying when they refer to realities and universes they refer to Low 2-C structures not 2-A lol

Also, they devour celestial bodies. You have yet to provide solid evidences for them devouring entire universes, much less a multiverse. Again, regurgitating the same statements isn't gonna work.

shyvana literally states she's gonna devour all of existence whole, the statements are universal feats, if we dont take the statement "i've destroyed realities" as universal, then somethings wrong with this wiki, its you who doesnt have any evidence to disprove them, you're literally asking me to prove a negative as in
"prove to me that they dont devour planets to destroy the universe" (and i literally did, above) it is YOU who is supposed to bring proof against my arguments,

I'm saying we don't upgrade a roster of characters a significant amount based entirely on bare statements topped with layers of assumptions. Especially since there's a believable alternative to how they destroy universes that's actually in line with how they operate.

this isnt relevent to the thread what so ever, you missed my entire point there, they scale to each regardless of statements, that was concluded in monarchs thread. and yes we do upgrade characters on bare statements alone, there's also feats here btw,
threshs "i've destroyed realities" for example

Also, assuming Ezreal refers to them individually is absurd. He clearly says that line as a generalization for all Dark Stars, not individually.

yes, but that doesnt mean he's referring to the dark star as a whole (as in dark star god & the corruptants), because the corruptants SCALE to each other, he says that to them specifically, which makes them 2-A

 

[Sevil Natas]

bump

 

[Lightning_XXI]

Oh boy, LoL revisions

Don't know much about the verse, but reading over these, it seems solid

Same for me

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

I agree with Upgrades.
Also timeframes means jackshit when High3A or higher tier destructions are involved, as long as process isn't indefinite......obviously.
Also universes just snuffing by just overtime matter destruction seems very counterintuitive to what we use as standards of low2C and higher destruction.

So I agree with Sevil's points.

 

[Antvasima]

@RegisNex1232 @ShrekAlmighty @Rocker1189 @Problemexe @Ionliosite @Promestein @Mariogoods @Anttron224

What do you think about this?

 

[JohnHendrix212]

Just a head's up for those unfamiliar with LoL revisions, this is the currently accepted revision thread the OP is trying to disprove.

https://vsbattles.com/threads/lol-dark-star-cosmic-court-downgrade.79449/

Read this first before agreeing or disagreeing in this thread. I personally think Monarch's arguments still holds true.

 

[JohnHendrix212]

Also timeframes means jackshit when High3A or higher tier destructions are involved, as long as process isn't indefinite......obviously.

Are we just supposed to take the statements at face value even though there's no timeframe or method? Is that how we operate here? Especially considering Monarch's suggested method makes more sense and falls in line with their bios, which are full of tier3/4 stuff.

Also universes just snuffing by just overtime matter destruction seems very counterintuitive to what we use as standards of low2C and higher destruction.

That's the point. Monarch suggested they're not doing low 2-C destruction, since the statements in themselves are very bare. They instead destroy universes from the inside by slowly consuming everything in it. Their descriptions and bios falls in line with this method.

 

[Sevil Natas]

Especially considering Monarch's suggested method makes more sense and falls in line with their bios, which are full of tier3/4 stuff.

i addressed monarchs argument alr, you're not using monarchs argument,
monarchs argument is backed up with something although its flawed but still something none the less , yours isnt backed up by anything

That's the point. Monarch suggested they're not doing low 2-C destruction, since the statements in themselves are very bare,they instead destroy universes from the inside by slowly cosuming everything in it. Their descriptions and bios falls in line with this method.

everything i posted above disproves this, they literally do affect space-time

 

[JohnHendrix212]

i addressed monarchs argument alr, you're not using monarchs argument,
monarchs argument is backed up with something although its flawed but still something none the less , yours isnt backed up by anything

My argument was that all of these statements are pretty bare, no timeframe, no method, which is Monarch's primary argument. They do provide method -devouring- for tier 3/4 stuff only. I'm only, for the most part, parroting Monarch's points, which you haven't proven wrong at all. Regurgitating the same statements doesn't mean you've made an argument.

You're suggesting we take these statements at face value without further analysis, out of pure speculation that they destroy multiverses/universes instantly.

everything i posted above disproves this, they literally do affect space-time

Affecting Space and Time isn't automatically universal. With this logic, Kaguya from Naruto was going to cause a universal explosion because she was gonna destroy Space and Time as well.

 

[Sevil Natas]

My argument was that all of these statements are pretty bare, no timeframe, no method, which is Monarch's primary argument. They do provide method -devouring- for tier 3/4 stuff only. I'm only, for the most part, parroting Monarch's points, which you haven't proven wrong at all. Regurgitating the same statements doesn't mean you've made an argument.

i did, his arguments for all corruptants feeding the darkstar was flawed, because it assumes all of them feed the darkstar and that is his main argument, no matter how much you say otherwise it doesnt change the facts, he used the no timeframe thing as a base for his arguments, nothing more

Conclusion
Conclusion? The Dark Star and its servants are not each capable of destroying all of existence on one single blow. The "devour all of existence" statement Ezreal makes, and the "destroyed realities before" of Thresh do not refer to instant events, they refer to how the Dark Star and its servants are steadily moving across the universe, devouring everything that exists in it one by one, and feeding it to the Dark Star. Eventually, the entire universe would be erased, consumed by the living black hole singularity that is the Dark Star god, reducing the entire universe, matter, time (inspired by the idea that black holes consume space-time as they grow) and thought (because everything is erased and can't think), to nothing. They have done this to previous universes before, and now they are trying to do it to the Cosmic's universe, and then they will move on to the next, eventually devouring "all of existence"

again here's monarchs conclusion from that thread, and feel free to read the whole thing if you want

Affecting Space and Time isn't automatically universal. With this logic, Kaguya from Naruto was going to cause a universal explosion because she was gonna destroy Space and Time as well.

execpt i proved it is, with riven statements, did you even read my last replies?

 

[ShrekAlmighty]

@RegisNex1232 @ShrekAlmighty @Rocker1189 @Problemexe @Ionliosite @Promestein @Mariogoods @Anttron224

What do you think about this?

I am sorry but i have not been following the thread, and i am not up to date with the Dark Star continuity as it is not connected with the primary canon and i find it boring, as such it would be unfair if i gave any input on the topic.

 

[Sevil Natas]

bump

 

[Antvasima]

JohnHendrix212 seems to make sense to me. If @Monarch_Laciel debunked the arguments here earlier, we should not mess with the current statistics.

 

[Sevil Natas]

JohnHendrix212 seems to make sense to me. If @Monarch_Laciel debunked the arguments here earlier, we should not mess with the current statistics.

monarchs old argument is flawed, it assumes all corruptants feed the dark star when only 2 people have been stated to feed it, so far none has tried to debunk my rebuttal,
not only that we got some new statements saying exactly how they destroy universes :
"They callously pull at the threads of reality, tearing it asunder..."
so not only is his argument flawed, its flat out outdated

 

[Sevil Natas]

before anyone comments further on this thread, i would ask for you to read the old thread or if you cant at least read just the OP :

https://vsbattles.com/threads/lol-dark-star-cosmic-court-downgrade.79449/

because no one here seems to know what monarchs arugments are, i've addressed all of them in the OP,

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Sevil added more scans and thus more context to counter Monarch's points. I get Monarch is very great, but it's more so they profiles used to be devoid of context but the context is now more elaborate.

 

[JohnHendrix212]

monarchs old argument is flawed, it assumes all corruptants feed the dark star when only 2 people have been stated feed it so far none has tried to debunk my rebuttal,

This part in Monarch's argument is not that relevant. You basically assume they can one-shot universes because they don't feed the Dark Star even though most of their descriptions or lines don't have anything beyond tier 3. You then scale these characters to those that do have statements, however unclear and vague they are as there's no timeframe or method, so all of them can be above universal. There's nothing solid in your arguments whatsoever. Just nothing but speculation and flawed scaling.

not only that we got some new statements saying exactly how they destroy universes :
"They callously pull at the threads of reality, tearing it asunder..."
so not only is his argument flawed, its flat out outdated

"Threads of reality" don't mean the universe. I've no idea why you interpret it that way. If the line said "threads of realities", then I'd agree with you. The reality spoken about in that line is the sum or aggregate of all that is real or existent within a system, as opposed to that which is only imaginary. The state of being real, rather than illusion.

It's not outdated, so much as the new statements just doesn't hold up still.

 

[JohnHendrix212]

Sevil added more scans and thus more context to counter Monarch's points. I get Monarch is very great, but it's more so they profiles used to be devoid of context but the context is now more elaborate.

He only added a few lines from LoR. None of which proves his argument true.

"I will rend this universe with sharpened claws and consume the whole of this terrible existence."

Assuming we take this line at face value, and ignore that it's just a blatant boast which she hadn't done at all, this doesn't solidly mean she could one-shot universes. Taking most of their descriptions into account, she most likely was just going to rend the universe the same way as her kin, which is by destroying, or in this case, rending large swathes of celestial bodies until the universe is gone. Also, rending something piece by piece doesn't mean she destroys stuff in one go. And again, I'd rather take this route which is backed up by their description, rather than assume she one-shots universes based on speculation.

"Consume the whole of this terrible existence" also don't refer to the universe in this context. She just says she'll devour existence, that is the state of being alive or real, or having objective reality.

"They callously pull at the threads of reality, tearing it asunder..."

I've addressed this above.

 

[Sevil Natas]

"Threads of reality" don't mean the universe. I've no idea why you interpret it that way. If the line said "threads of realities", then I'd agree with you. The reality spoken about in that line is the sum or aggregate of all that is real or existent within a system, as opposed to that which is only imaginary. The state of being real, rather than illusion.

It's not outdated, so much as the new statements just doesn't hold up still.

riven is obviously referring to the universe, if not more, everytime they say reality it means the universe in LoL. got no idea what you're saying here, reality refers to everything that is real, that includes the universe, not to mention, it states "threads of reality" as in fabric of reality, "They callously pull at the fabric of reality, tearing it asunder..." this obviously refers to the universe being torn asunder.

This part in Monarch's argument is not that relevant. You basically assume they can one-shot universes because they don't feed the Dark Star even though most of their descriptions or lines don't have anything beyond tier 3. You then scale these characters to those that do have statements, however unclear and vague they are as there's no timeframe or method, so all of them can be above universal. There's nothing solid in your arguments whatsoever. Just nothing but speculation and flawed scaling.

yes i am, because there's no anti-feats, nothing that suggests they do it overtime by destroying planets we have shyvana literally stating she's gonna devour existence whole,without monarchs main argument, your argument is nothing but nitpicking & speculaton, im taking all of their statements at face value, you're here over interpreting everything you can, without backing any of those interpretations with evidence, to fit your flawed narrative

 

[JohnHendrix212]

Also, if Rhaast is this powerful, why doesn't he destroy the Oddysey universe when there's literally no one that can stop him in this universe? He can't, simple as.

 

[Sevil Natas]

Also, if Rhaast is this powerful, why doesn't he destroy the Oddysey universe when there's literally no one that can stop him in this universe? He can't, simple as.

because rhaast in the lore is still sealed, its only in game when he gets that powerful, and in game he states the he did destroy realities.

 

[Antvasima]

I still think that John seems to make sense.

 

[JohnHendrix212]

riven is obviously referring to the universe, if not more, everytime they say reality it means the universe in LoL. got no idea what you're saying here, reality refers to everything that is real, that includes the universe, not to mention, it states "threads of reality" as in fabric of reality, "They callously pull at the fabric of reality, tearing it asunder..." this obviously refers to the universe being torn asunder.

No she don't, lol. You need to understand the context behind sentences. Whenever they reference reality as universes, they always use "This reality" or "realities" when referring to more than one. Threads of reality doesn't mean the universe, it's the state of objective reality, the state of being real, not illusion.

They tear reality (the state, not the universe) asunder.

yes i am, because there's no anti-feats, nothing that suggests they do it overtime by destroying planets we have shyvana literally stating she's gonna devour existence whole,without monarchs main argument, your argument is nothing but nitpicking & speculaton, im taking all of their statements at face value, you're here over interpreting everything you can, without backing any of those interpretations with evidence, to fit your flawed narrative

As I said, the "existence" in Shyvana's line doesn't mean the universe. She says she'll consume existence, as in the state of being real. It's a stretch to think she means universes in this line.

The bulk of your argument are just speculations, and suggests we don't take further analysis on the statements and just take them at face value. You're interpreting every single statement and line to their highest degree. Also, you say that I don't have evidence backing me up when most Dark Star/Cosmic Court description back my argument up.

Solid tier 3/4 feats > Tier 2 feats based entirely on speculation.

 

[JohnHendrix212]

because rhaast in the lore is still sealed, its only in game when he gets that powerful, and in game he states the he did destroy realities.

In-game, he says he destroys the entrails, not realities. Why do you keep insisting on this?