ant that guy doesnt know what he's talking about, his narrative is flawed, he doenst back up anything he says with any sort evidence. everything i say is backed up by statements.
that basically is referring to realities as a whole stop trying to twist the statements, him saying "entrails" obviously means the entire space-time & matter of those realities in this context, because dark stars, have already shown feats of that degree
this is just plain stupid at this point,
existence literally means all that exists, there you go
it doesnt, the bios only states that they destroy planet & stars, this is like saying DMC is mountain level because they're consistently shown to have mountain level feats & all the other feats dont have any timeframe, thus not universal, im not exaggerating, this is literally what you're saying
I'm just repeating Monarch's points, which still holds true for the most part.
you arent. monarchs main argument is that corruptants feed the darkstar and that is how they destroy the universe
just flat out lying, show me the scan where it says darkstars destroy the universe by devouring planets, or the one where they destroy the universe overtime,
execpt they are what they appear to be, and so far you've brought nothing to suggest otherwise
the statements themselves are universal at face value, its you who's over interpretting them
btw i asked ultima on discord about this, and given him the context, he said assuming its 2-B is fine
The existence there doesn't pertain to the universe in context. "The whole of this terrible existence" isn't the same as "all of existence".
That's Monarch's secondary argument. His main argument was that there's no timeframe or method, so we shouldn't assume they one-shot stuff. Considering their description doesn't give any reference to your arguments.
Read their description. Referring to their more consistent feats is flat-out better than mere speculation on them supposedly one-shotting universes.
They are not. Monarch already debunked this. Them feeding the Dark Star or not, you still can't provide a timeframe or method.
There are more plausible and better alternative explanations for these statements, we don't take them at face value unless we have absolutely nothing to gather apart from that. That's the point of the downgrade thread.
No. destroying the entrails =/= destroying realities. Destroying the insides of something =/= destroying something whole. I don't care what anybody thinks. Enough of this.
need i remind of monarchs conclusion of that thread?
already addressed this, just because they do tier 4 feats doesnt mean they cant destroy the universe
execpt them feeding the dark star is his debunking... can you read the downgrade thread before talking?
They arent anymore plausible than them destroying the universe, the latter has more backing, you currently have no backing
in context it would mean tier 2
they arent hyperbolic at all, darkstars could obviously destroy low 2-C structures, riven confirms that, and rhaast flat out says that he destroyed space, and entire realities at once, what people dont get about the "The entrails of countless realities are shattering in my wake!" statement is that its happening all at once, him just referring to him self destroying a few planets doesnt make any sense in this context.
it cant be shown on screen, because well the only thing we have to evaluate their feats are short stories & quotes thats it.
Riven confirmed nothing. Affecting Time and Space doesn't mean anything, otherwise, many characters below tier 5 would be universal, including Kaguya, who was gonna destroy Time and space as well. And no, they didn't destroy entire realities "at once", quit the lies. If there was such a statement, the dowgrade thread wouln't have existed in the first place.
They're just lore statements and in-game lines, so they can't be shown on screen. The OP's interpretation of the statements in question is just outlandish, and requires for us to speculate further when they have lore statements that's far more consistent.
Okay. Let's wait for him then.
Okay. Noted.
Sure. I do have some problems with this though.
The only flaw in the current ratings is that they all scale to Tier 3. There's very obviously power gaps between them. Lux can destroy Galaxies casually, seeing as she was powerful even before she was corrupted, as she was the Queen's right hand. Most of them only showed Tier 4, few of them showed/stated to be Tier 3. But that's besides the point.
Not really.
first of all the whole scale to each other thing, your argument has been brought up (by the pro tier 2 guys no less) during the old thread and it was debunked by monarch
im not, i'm suggesting they're universal because they have obvious feats of destroying space-time, im saying that if your narrative of them destroying the universe via destroying matter is true then they'll be destroying galaxies not star systems, thus it is a big hole in your argument.
° For reference, I think Monarch largely makes good points here, given that all of those statements do suggest that the method through which the Dark Stars destroy the universe involves getting rid of stars and solar systems in a gradual process. I don't think they're very convincing when applied to the statement saying they'll eventually destroy space and time, though, given that the spacetime continuum as a whole is an uncountably infinite structure, and so unless you want to argue that it will be destroyed as a result of a chain reaction instead of anything direct, whether or not its destruction takes place overtime is pretty irrelevant.
it wouldnt make any sense for them to do that to destroy the universe tho, corruptants are currently able to effortlessly one shot galaxies, that was what was accepted in monarch's thread, if we go with this interpretation, than they wouldnt be destroying just star systems & planets, they would be erasing galaxies.
I'm not knowledgeable on time and space stuff, but there's been tons of characters that's been stated to be able to affect/destroy time and space who're below tier 4/5, including Kaguya from Naruto, who was gonna consume time and space as well before she was stopped. So this doesn't really sell me that much.
Monarch argues that the Dark Stars consume celestial bodies, and a few of them feed them to the Dark Star god, which would be the one to truly destroy universes, including time and space.
Look, most of them were shown to only do tier 3/4 stuff. Few of them has statements or lines of universal destruction. Since these universal statements and lines are very few and far in between, we don't take them at face value, instead we refer to the more consistent feats, which are tier 3/4. We don't immediately jump to the idea of them being universal just because there's a few lines that vaguely say they do. Simple.
None of these lines imply tier 2 unless applied with the assumption that these happen instantly/at once, which they evidently don't. That last line is Thresh's line, so he most likely also refers to the Dark Star when he says "we", which is the one to destroy time and space.
No, they don't. Riven's line doesn't prove anything. I've addressed this repeatedly.
false equivlancy, i dont know naruto verse but i dont think she's ever been stated to be able to affect the entire universe which is a requirement for low 2-C
which i already addressed in the OP
not really, there's more stuff that imply tier 2 stuff, also that isnt relevant; i already proved they dont those feats to destroy the universe.
yes, they do, infact rivens line is enough to disprove your entire argument, your argument is that we no method of them destroying the universe, when there is , also since thresh is also able to affect space-time the same way other corruptants do, and further more he uses the prefix "we" not "it", he's also doing those feats
and i've debunked it repeatedly, riven is in this context, is obviously referring to the universe by saying "reality", because she literally says threads of reality
Alright, sure. But the point is that most of them don't have the "consume time and space" statements. Only Thresh do, and he's the holder of the Dark Star, the one Monarch and I argues is the one who can legitimately destroy the universe, time and space and all. It's quite a stretch to say they all have this ability, or that they exactly scale to each other considering they don't have statements nor lines to give these assumptions the nod. Most of them only affect space and reality to some extent, and not time, which obviously has nothing to do with the space-time continuum.
It's the same concept. Personally, affecting space and time isn't gonna cut it. And only Thresh has the line, the others don't. They only affect space at varying degrees. And we don't have enough proof to say how much they actually affect it other than they "bend" and "break" it.
All you literally said is that because only 2 of them has been stated to feed the Dar Star, that they can destroy stuff on their own. Which doesn't at all prove that they can destroy time and space, and the universe itself unless we pile up assumption after assumption. C'mon now.
False, most lines and statements only refer to tier 3/4. All of these "tier 2" lines you've posted are vague, and do not actually straight up say they're at that level.
Riven's line, again, doesn't disprove my argument, nor does it mean anything.
"An entity who carries the raw power of cosmic creation in her hands, Illaoi can slam the orb she holds into the very fabric of reality, allowing time to flow forward even in places where life has been eradicated."
all the evidence we have points to that direction, it's not piling assumption after assumption, its the best explaination
ignoring all issues with that, such as why would she refer to the state of reality as having threads or fibers, that is basically something you use to refer to the space time fabric of a universe, that still means the universe lol, the concept of reality, basically means everything that is real, and the universe is a part of that everything
ultima pretty much stayed neutral on the whole thing, he said that the opposition makes some great points but he also said those arent convincing when applied to the tier 2 statements and then said he'll leave that for us to interpret
Ant, these are the staff that agreed with Monarch in the downgrade thread.
I see, that's unfortunate.
@Celestial_Pegasus @Dragonmasterxyz @SomebodyData
Like Sevil alluded to up there, spacetime destruction feats are usually deemed as qualifying for Low 2-C once they hit a large enough scale, usually an universal one, below which we just deem them to be some hax ability. So, as I mentioned, eating away at the universe's space and time over any period of time is going to be a Low 2-C feat regardless of how you cut it, and, from what I see, the Dark Stars are already described as "pulling at the threads of reality," so it does seem like their influence extends beyond just destroying the material contents of the universe.
