League of Legends: Darkstar & cosmic court revisions

[Sevil Natas]

okay so from what i've read your fine with Low 2-C. okay what about the other feats which are higher

namely these :
"The entrails of countless realities are shattering in my wake!" (Possibly 2-B)

"Nobody devours all of existence on my watch! I live in there."
all of existence refers to the multiverse which is 2-A currently, meaning the darkstars have infulence over the entire multiverse

this quote by jhin also supports the fact they can destroy the multiverse

"Every universe, every Xayah, a spark... destined only to fade."

i think at least likely 2-A here is still fine for them
if not then at least low 2-C is also valid

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out Ultima.

 

[Sevil Natas]

okay so after a bit, i came to the conclusion that 2-A is a bit vague,
not to mention im already iffy on the league multverse being 2-A to begin with

so i guess just going for my intial proposal of "at least Low 2-C" is fine for me

 

[Sevil Natas]

so based on ultima's evaluations is this fine to apply?
if so, the following pages need to be unlocked and preferably stay that way since LoL isnt a controversial verse now a days :
thresh
Kayn
jhin
varus
Xayah
Rakan
Kha'zix
Cho'gath
Karma
Orianna
shaco
Jarvan

 

[JohnHendrix212]

2-A stuff is far too iffy for me. I'm fine with "likely Low 2-C", or like I suggested, 3-C, likely Low 2-C. A "possibly" rating would be more accurate personally, but this is fine as well.

 

[JohnHendrix212]

so based on ultima's evaluations is this fine to apply?
if so, the following pages need to be unlocked and preferably stay that way since LoL isnt a controversial verse now a days :

So, I suggest the justifications should be like this:

Lux/Dark Cosmic Lux:

3-C (Creates constellations and nebulae just by moving and was described as being capable of crafting entire galaxies), likely Low 2-C (On Par with Thresh, who stated that the Dark Stars could consume Time, Space and Reality, and said to have already consumed countless realities) higher with Final Spark (Reduced Thresh to a tattered shell of his former self and the Dark Star to a splinter of its former power) | At least Galaxy level, likely Low 2-C (Became the Dark Star)

Thresh

3-C (Thresh's head alone is the size of a galaxy Should be comparable to Dark Star Karma who can devour entire galactic systems and Dark Cosmic Lux who can destroy galaxies with a thought), likely Low 2-C (Stated that the Dark Stars could consume Time, Space and Reality, and said to have already consumed countless realities)

The rest:

3-C (Should be comparable to Dark Star Lux, who can destroy galaxies with a thought), likely Low 2-C (Should be comparable to Thresh, who stated that the Dark Stars could consume Time, Space and Reality, and said to have already consumed countless realities)

Or just leave the 3-C justifications as is for the rest, and add the Likely Low 2-C rating and justification.

Is this fine?

 

[JohnHendrix212]

okay so after a bit, i came to the conclusion that 2-A is a bit vague,
not to mention im already iffy on the league multverse being 2-A to begin with

so i guess just going for my intial proposal of "at least Low 2-C" is fine for me

Based entirely on Ultima's comment, I think this works fine without the "at least". I think we should leave the 3-C rating as is, so we'll have a solid rating before the Low 2-C ones.

 

[JohnHendrix212]

Been dead for a while, eh.

Would you go for a solid Low 2-C rating, or do we keep the 3-C ratings as is, and add likely, Low 2-C?

Personally, I think the latter is a better rating just to be safe, since the evidence is mostly in-game lines and statements. But what do you think?

 

[Sevil Natas]

there's no reason to keep their 3-C rating if they're obviously capable of greater feats

 

[JohnHendrix212]

there's no reason to keep their 3-C rating if they're obviously capable of greater feats

Their "feats" consists of mere in-game lines and dialogue, not solid feats, which should not account for a solid rating. That's why I'm suggesting a safer rating option.

But I'll wait for Ultima's response still.

 

[Sevil Natas]

Their "feats" consists of mere in-game lines and dialogue, not solid feats, which should not account for a solid rating. That's why I'm suggesting a safer rating option.

But I'll wait for Ultima's response still.

they're reliable feats still, it doesnt matter where they came from as long as said source is reliable then they're solid

 

[JohnHendrix212]

they're reliable feats still, it doesnt matter where they came from as long as said source is reliable then they're solid

I happen to recall that voice lines and dialogues and such aren't treated as solid feats here without actual feats backing them up, but are in and of themselves enough for a "possible" or a "likely" rating. But, I don't frequent here nowadays, so I could be wrong.

 

[Sevil Natas]

I happen to recall that voice lines and dialogues and such aren't treated as solid feats here without actual feats backing them up, but are in and of themselves enough for a "possible" or a "likely" rating. But, I don't frequent here nowadays, so I could be wrong.

execpt Why? these are the voice lines that are presented in the actual game and they're very accurate depictions of the lore, not to mention LoR is pretty much canon to the main lore too, the devs confirmed that too

 

[JohnHendrix212]

execpt Why? these are the voice lines that are presented in the actual game and they're very accurate depictions of the lore, not to mention LoR is pretty much canon to the main lore too, the devs confirmed that too

Mainly because they're not "feats" in the regular sense that's commonly accepted here. They're just statements and character lines, nothing more. Especially considering that most lines used here are just characters claiming they could do this and that, but has not actually done it. In fact, I think some argued that voice lines are only good as supporting evidence.

But anyway, I'm fine with a solid Low 2-C or 3-C, likely Low 2-C. Depending on which Ultima and Ant are okay with.

 

[Antvasima]

I personally think that the safeguard solution seems good, but I am not a good person to ask.

What do you think @Ultima_Reality ?

 

[Zencha9]

had no idea we disregard statements for no reason
anyways i agree with Low 2-C no need for 3-C you either use the statements or you don't

 

[JohnHendrix212]

had no idea we disregard statements for no reason

Not disregard them, just not use them the way we use actual feats. They're still good, but obviously not as good as feats.

 

[Sevil Natas]

Not disregard them, just not use them the way we use actual feats. They're still good, but obviously not as good as feats.

and how does that make their statements questionable? you do realise some verses are Low 2-C or higher just via statements alone right? not to mention, the 3-C feat is literally a single statement by lux
this is why they're rated 3-C
"I've obliterated galaxies with a thought. You... who are you again?"
which honestly from the wording it sounds like 3-B but that doesnt matter now

 

[JohnHendrix212]

and how does that make their statements questionable? you do realise some verses are Low 2-C or higher just via statements alone right? not to mention, the 3-C feat is literally a single statement by lux

Most verses that rely on statements also have reinforcing statements from an omniscient narrator, or from other related characters. The ones used here are claims from characters that they're capable of such feats, with nothing to back them up but other similar statements from other characters. Some of said characters are unreliable, such as Jhin, who is described as being "swallowed by delusions of grandeur and omnipotence" or just being plain arrogant.

But again, I'm not an expert on rules regarding this. And I'm fine with Low 2-C either way. Just that I think 3-C, likely Low 2-C would be a better and safer option in this case.

Also, there's only one 3-C statement, but the majority of their solid feats range below tier 3.

 

[Zencha9]

Not disregard them, just not use them the way we use actual feats. They're still good, but obviously not as good as feats.

that's obviously not how the wiki works statements are as valid as feats unless shown otherwise

 

[JohnHendrix212]

hat's obviously not how the wiki works statements are as valid as feats unless shown otherwise

I've participated in enough threads to know that feats are valued more than statements without back-up proof. Then again, I don't frequent this wiki that much, so I might be misremembering some rules regarding this.

 

[Zencha9]

I've participated in enough threads to know that feats are valued more than statements without back-up proof. Then again, I don't frequent this wiki that much, so I might be misremembering some rules regarding this.

if it was justy a single statement that has no supporting statements then you would be correct
but this is not the case here

 

[Sevil Natas]

would really like this to be concluded, the statements are solid, thats they used to be rated 3-C and ultima approved Low 2-C
can we apply this already?

 

[Antvasima]

If Ultima has approved it, I suppose so. I don't remember that happening though.

 

[JohnHendrix212]

would really like this to be concluded, the statements are solid, thats they used to be rated 3-C and ultima approved Low 2-C
can we apply this already?

We'll just wait for Ultima to decide whether we use solid Low 2-C, or leave the 3-C rating and add likely Low 2-C. If he approves, then we can proceed to changing the pages.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.

@Ultima_Reality

Would you be willing to make some clarifications here please?

 

[Ultima_Reality]

I've participated in enough threads to know that feats are valued more than statements without back-up proof. Then again, I don't frequent this wiki that much, so I might be misremembering some rules regarding this.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but both the 3-C and Low 2-C ends come from statements, no? In which case, why are we separating the two, exactly?

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out.

 

[Sevil Natas]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but both the 3-C and Low 2-C ends come from statements, no? In which case, why are we separating the two, exactly?

yes they are
quoting monarchs old thread :

https://vsbattles.com/threads/lol-dark-star-cosmic-court-downgrade.79449/

Changes
AP and Durability

Dark Stars and Cosmics should be downgraded to "High 4-C to possibly 3-C". The High 4-C comes from the various lores about them destroying star systems, being forged of supermassive stars, creating constellations, etc etc. The possibly 3-C comes from Karma being a galactic civilisation reforged into a dark star. This is a "possibly" mainly because a galactic civilisation doesn't necessarily mean an entire galaxy.

Update: I have found a statement of Dark Lux destroying a galaxy with a thought. I have also found two statements from Dark Star Jhin that he finds destroying and killing galaxies to be "derivative" and "pedestrian". Though this could refer simply to his artistic taste wanting him to do more than just destroy, or destroy in a special fancy way or something, these are enough to remove the "possibly" from the "Galaxy level" rating.

can we apply the changes already.. further stalling this thread wouldnt do us any good

 

[JohnHendrix212]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but both the 3-C and Low 2-C ends come from statements, no? In which case, why are we separating the two, exactly?

3-C statements are by far the more consistent set of statements in this particular lore, and that it outnumbers the "universal" ones. Which was one of Monarch's main argument.

Still, that doesn't matter anymore since Monarch seems to have missed the time/space stuff. I reckon the Low 2-C rating is fine?

I think 3-C, likely Low 2-C is still a safer choice, personally.

 

[JohnHendrix212]

yes they are
quoting monarchs old thread :

https://vsbattles.com/threads/lol-dark-star-cosmic-court-downgrade.79449/

can we apply the changes already.. further stalling this thread wouldnt do us any good

No need to be in such a hurry.

 

[Sevil Natas]

3-C statements are by far the more consistent set of statements in this particular lore, and that it outnumbers the "universal" ones. Which was one of Monarch's main argument.

Still, that doesn't matter anymore since Monarch seems to have missed the time/space stuff.

there's only one 1 galactic statement and 2 vague ones, while there are alot more universal ones out there

No need to be in such a hurry.

any reason for why we shouldnt give them L2C if its already approved? this thread is done, there's nothing more to be argued unless if there's new information

 

[Zencha9]

consistency does not matter here unless you're saying that Low 2-C is an outlier or is inconsistent which is not the case here

 

[Sevil Natas]

okay so if we're done here, i'd once again ask to get following pages unlocked so i can apply the changes, and for them to stay unlocked because LoL isnt as contreversial as it used to be :
thresh
Kayn
jhin
varus
Xayah
Rakan
Kha'zix
Cho'gath
Karma
Orianna
shaco
Jarvan

 

[JohnHendrix212]

there's only one 1 galactic statement and 2 vague ones, while there are alot more universal ones out there

I meant below tier 3.

consistency does not matter here unless you're saying that Low 2-C is an outlier or is inconsistent which is not the case here

Honestly, this should be the case here. There's tons of statements of them destroying nothing but material stuff in a universe, but only a couple statement refers to them being able to destroy concepts like time, space and reality, and they're not even directly related. But since I'm being such an annoying party pooper, I'm not even gonna voice my complaints anymore.

Let's get on with the upgrades.

 

[JohnHendrix212]

any reason for why we shouldnt give them L2C if its already approved? this thread is done, there's nothing more to be argued unless if there's new information

Ultima hasn't given me an answer yet, though. I'd prefer getting his thoughts first before making any changes, but eh.

Lux/Dark Cosmic Lux:

Universe level+ (On Par with Thresh, who stated that the Dark Stars could consume Time, Space and Reality, and said to have already consumed countless realities) higher with Final Spark (Reduced Thresh to a tattered shell of his former self and the Dark Star to a splinter of its former power) | at least Universe level+ (Became the Dark Star)

Thresh

Universe level+ (Stated that the Dark Stars could consume Time, Space and Reality, and said to have already consumed countless realities himself)

The rest:

Universe level+ (Should be comparable to Thresh, who stated that the Dark Stars could consume Time, Space and Reality, and said to have already consumed countless realities)

This should be fine.

 

[Sevil Natas]

Ultima hasn't given me an answer yet, though. I'd prefer getting his thoughts first before making any changes, but eh.

well he told me he agreed with L2C on discord, i cant apply the changes rn, im busy with another verse, if the pages are unlocked i'll do so tmr

 

[Antvasima]

You need to write a list of the EXACTLY WORDED titles for all of the pages that you need unlocked, or my automated script will not be able to handle it.

Also, I do not think that these pages seem controversial enough to stay locked afterwards.

 

[Sevil Natas]

You need to write a list of the EXACTLY WORDED titles for all of the pages that you need unlocked, or my automated script will not be able to handle it.

Also, I do not think that these pages seem controversial enough to stay locked afterwards.

but i did

okay so if we're done here, i'd once again ask to get following pages unlocked so i can apply the changes, and for them to stay unlocked because LoL isnt as contreversial as it used to be :
thresh
Kayn
jhin
varus
Xayah
Rakan
Kha'zix
Cho'gath
Karma
Orianna
shaco
Jarvan

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. I suppose that I have to capitalise all of the first letters on my own to see if your list works then.