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Kingdom Hearts Stat Revision Discussion Thread

Only staff members actually notify when pinging.
So even if I can do @Matthew_Schroeder , he doesn't get actually notified as I'm not staff so far, for example.
He is known for being quite busy fairly often, hopefully he'll come back soon.
 
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Alright I'm able to write my reply now, before I start on Cyber's point.
Bobsican said:
Regarding the MHS+ low-end, I find it questionable to assume that just because the lightning comes from above it's automatically cloud to ground lightning, considering that the magic just makes them come from a bit above as seen in-game and can be used in-doors
Click to expand...
Magic is consistently compared to IRL lightning in KH, Sora compares his lightning to Zeus as a primary example and Ursula, who doesn't have magic but power over the sea and storms use lightning that functions just like thunder magic, it being able to be used in-doors is irrelevant.

Bobsican said:
this also applies to Larxene as she's fought inside a regular Castle Oblivion room. Thunderaffe is the only thing left, but at that point higher feats seem more consistent.
Click to expand...
No, Thunderaffe isn't the only thing left, idk why you just directly blatantly ignored Ursula's lightning feat. Not to mention, Thunderaffe, the very one said to be faster then lightning has lightning based attacks and is where you learn a lot of your lightning abilites from:
www.khwiki.com

Thunderaffe

The Thunderaffe is a Dream Eater that appears in Kingdom Hearts 3D: Dream Drop Distance.
www.khwiki.com www.khwiki.com

Now for the MFTL+ feats.

"For speed there are these 3 things:

Kingdom Hearts Birth By Sleep Final Mix Part 9 (Ventus) - Deep Space - Playstation 3 - YouTube

Kingdom Hearts: Birth by Sleep All Cutscenes (Terra Edition) Game Movie 1080p HD - YouTube"
Me and @PlozAlcachaz actually found something interesting regarding Keyblade Glider, the fact that the gliders themselves aren't MFTL+, they don't travel to other worlds via sheer speed, Terra and co. open up a portal and use the glider to go within the world.
Terra does it here:


Again here:


Again here:


Aqua does it here:


Again here:


That travel to other worlds via portal creation so there's no MFTL+ feat to be found here, this is doubly consistent with Ventus being shocked by Stitch's ship going at MFTL+ speeds and it completely blitzing him:
https://youtu.be/zrC6Fq3n0Ms?t=396

There's also the fact that Terra in the keyblade glider races against Pete while he's in a car:
https://youtu.be/pHlFURBFV1U?t=10606

To argue that the car is all of a sudden MFTL+ would be extremely weird to say the least so I don't think the gliders are meant to be MFTL+ at all.

"Back from the Dead for These Gains (Kingdom Hearts) | Naruto Forums
Published by Tacocat in the blog Tacocat's blog. Views: 165
web.archive.org
web.archive.org

Kingdom Hearts 3 - Boss: Saix (Roxas Return) - YouTube

Kingdom Hearts 3: ReMind DLC - Boss Xemnas & Saix [Roxas GAMEPLAY] - YouTube"
Xemnas aim dodged and Roxas could only do it via pin pointing Sora's heart, if we want to give this to Roxas only as specifically a travel speed feat that doesn't scale to his reactions like Mega Man I'm fine with that but this defo does not scale to anyone's reactions.

"Likewise:
Aqua, Ventus and Terra can use Photon Charge, a Shotlock ability described as attacking at the speed of light.

http://www.zellfantasy.it/news/bbs/famitsu03.jpg

https://www.khinsider.com/news/More-Translations-from-Famitsu-1010

I'm not sure if anyone reacts to it though"
That was linked earlier in the thread and it'd just help support their FTL attack speed.

"Kingdom Hearts 2 HD ReMIX | Ursula's Revenge ♪ (Atlantica Musical : Act IV) - YouTube
Ursala can react to the light from sora's keyblade"
Sora does a full on flip and aims his keyblade before firing making it seem very telegraphed, along with the fact that both Riku and Xemnas have been blitzed by this same beam, along with her two fish children being equal to Sora in speed yet they get blitzed by this exact attack.

"Roxas is able to maneuver while in the form of a beam of light (Roxas's element is light). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KM_o14HB07I&t=611&app=desktop https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iRrIdKsb7wo&t=7&app=desktop https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cYCKfofK3Yk&t=45&app=desktop"
Those actually go against the laser/light beam standards, for one they don't travel in a straight line and for two they get slower after a bit, when light speed is a constant speed:
vsbattles.fandom.com

Laser/Light Beam Dodging Feats

"Light" or "Laser" dodging is a fairly common trope seen in fiction and often the center of debate regarding characters' speeds, given that light is the fastest known thing in the real universe. This article will set forth the standards of this wiki in determining what is considered a real...
vsbattles.fandom.com vsbattles.fandom.com
"They do not travel in straight lines (unless you can prove refraction/reflection, see above)"
Also the element of light is light magic in general it applies to everything that's not apart of the darkness element.


Now since I'm seeing arguments about consistency so far I see about 1 real light dodge feat that works which is the monsters inc one and that one comes from the same game where avoiding a laser attack is something the journal outright tells you to aim dodge. If we want to find a common middle gorund, we can also look at his lower end feats, him being comparable to Tarzan who got tagged by Clayton's bullet, him needing to react in time to bullets from the pirates in PoTC world, the toy sp;doer in halloween town/christmas town in KH 2, the air riders in Neverland, (idk how we treat speed of arrows but archers enemies if we treat speed of arrows the same), necho using sound based attacks, etcetera. This isn't to say he's bullet speed btw this is just to show that he's not consistently higher then he is lower. Anyways now for my issue with FTL reactions.

I decided to look through every heartless regime and such to see if the laser heartless in KH 3 was only a one time issue and if there's other light enemies that he consistently avoids from, because if that exists then there's no need for debate of FTL w/o Focus however I found the opposite.

www.khwiki.com

Sniper

The Sniper is a high-ranking Nobody controlled by Xigbar that is found in Kingdom Hearts II and Kingdom Hearts III.
www.khwiki.com www.khwiki.com
"A sniper. A high-ranking Nobody. It is very agile as it moves around defying gravity. Use magic to stop its movements for an easier battle.

It attacks using arrows of light. Ward them off with Warp Snipe. Use this in succession for victory!"

Oh but wait! KH 3's might solve the issue:
"Kingdom Hearts III
Gravity's got nothing on these slippery sharpshooters, and as soon as you close the distance they'll warp right outta there. The good news? Blocking will send the arrows they fire straight back at them.

In bigger brawls, you'll want to make them a priority. A little magic goes a long way toward pinning them down until you can land some hits."
So I guess it-
"Attribute Power Guard? Repel LV
Shot (ショット
Shotto?) Physical 1 ◯ 2
Aims with its laser sight and shoots a light bullet which briefly hangs in mid-air before flying towards its target.
Giant Shot (巨大ショット
Kyodai Shotto?) (large light bullet) Physical 1.0 ◯ 2
(small light bullet) Physical 1.0 (per hit) ◯ 2
Enlarges weapon, aims with its laser sight for two seconds, then fires a large light bullet. This large light immediately stops and hangs in mid-air after firing, after which it splits into five small light bullets that fly towards a nearby target.
Strike (なぐり
Naguri?) Physical 1.5 ◯ 2
Warps near a target and strikes them with its weapon."
oh, telegraphed attacks. It also specifies risk dodge only works with strike which is the one attack where it does a physical attack rather then shooting it's light attack.

www.khwiki.com

Bolt Tower

The Bolt Tower is an Emblem Heartless that is found in Kingdom Hearts II.
www.khwiki.com www.khwiki.com
"Bolt Tower
Kingdom Hearts II
It has very high defense, and can only take damage in the face. Attack the face!

If caught by its snag laser, use the reaction command Bolt Reversal continuously to escape. If successful, a big explosion will unleash damage upon nearby enemies."
"The Bolt Tower fires blasts of lightning from its top. They are slow, but can be very deadly when in large groups."
MHS is seeming more consistent here but let's keep looking. Mind you Bolt tower's reaction command I remember snag laser being undodgeable.

www.khwiki.com

Guardian

The Guardian is an Emblem Heartless that is found in Kingdom Hearts 358/2 Days.
www.khwiki.com www.khwiki.com
"These large flying drone Heartless fire a super laser that damages anything in its path, friend or foe.
Regular attacks will not stagger the Guardian. To disable its super laser, jolt it with Thunder.

TIP: Nil-based attacks like the super laser can null your defense, increasing the damage you take."

www.khwiki.com

Destroyer

The Destroyer is an Emblem Heartless that is found in Kingdom Hearts 358/2 Days. It is one of the bosses in Twilight Town.
www.khwiki.com www.khwiki.com
"Destroyer
Kingdom Hearts 358/2 Days
These large flying drone Heartless fire a super laser that tears apart anything in its path, friend or foe.
While regular attacks will not stagger the Destroyer, jolting it with Thunder magic will disable its super and double laser."

Both of these laser attacks you need to avoid by them charging up btw.

There's a couple more I could find but basically, Sora gets blitzed a lot of the time by people using lasers, needs to use a specific move to avoid the lasers or he waits for them to telegraph it/charge it up to avoid them.

There's also Ansnem being hit by light and it moving so fast he couldn't even shield his eyes before it hit him:

With these in mind I think the original speed tiering we agreed to should stay and we should focus on Tier 5.
 
Bobsican said:
I still don't see how the electricity matches for the Lightning Feats standards. No clouds are actually involved at all for most of them without further details. With no clouds or quite specific details as the page states, it can't qualify for MHS+.
Click to expand...
"Lightning that has demonstrated at a minimum a few properties that real lightning has, and significantly less properties that lightning shouldn't have, can be considered real. Some examples of favourable properties are: making muscles of affected beings contract, having an (electro)magnetic field, being shown to actually move with a speed similar to lightning, flowing through conducting materials, the character being able to manipulate real electricity or electromagnetism in general, generating ozone or causing electrolysis."
Bob one of the sidequest in traverse town is literally re-powering an electrical current once you get Thunder Magic in KH 1, it meets the qualifications. Cloud to ground isn't the only sole qualification for it.
 
Yes, but the problem is the speed of it, not if it's electricity in the first place (That's only one of the criteria it has to meet). As the page says, if it isn't cloud to ground lightning, we need some specific knowledge on its properties to compare it to a cloud to ground one or it isn't usable as an speed feat otherwise.
 
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Bobsican said:
Yes, but the problem is the speed of it, not if it's electricity in the first place. As the page says, if it isn't cloud to ground lightning, we need some specific knowledge on its properties to compare it to a cloud to ground one or it isn't usable.
Click to expand...
iirc Electro's lightning was considered legit because how high his AP is, with how high KH characters AP are and it meeting the other lightning requirements it should be legit.
 
Alright so, I wont push for mftl

As for ftl, the laser dodging feat for sora in kh 3 in the monsters inc world is legit. Im fine with it being added as a "likely" to whatever the feat gets as a calc.

As for the "anti feats" from those specific heartless, two are from prior games, and sora gets stronger throughout 3 after he regains his lost power. Plus a lot of the wiki statements seem to be direct game mechanics. Actual footage would be appreciated. As for the feat bob would like calced, im fine with it being added under the pretext of it being done when using "focus"
 
Cyberblader90 said:
Plus a lot of the wiki statements seem to be direct game mechanics
Click to expand...
Parts I quoted specifically from the wiki were heartless attacks and warp ability is also from KH 3

Bob could get some footage since he's apparently the one that got a lot of the gifs for Sora's profile

Fine with a likely feat for Monsters Inc
 
The "lasers" of the Snipers bend in their way as they hom into the target, so it likely is not legit for that purpose.
"Bolt dudes" doesn't give enought information, which Heartless species is it?
 
"Actual" light isn't normally affected by gravity AFAIK, so that would leave it questionable, anyways, Sora can block those like any other attack, although the wide area at times renders a Barrier quite recommended. Sora can also reflect them with Aerial Dodge.

Anyways, for the Bolt Heartless, I'll check.
 






Click here if it doesn't load


From this, it seems that while Sora can dodge the sniping, he can't dodge the laser of the Bolt Tower (If it "fails", the beam isn't even done, just showing a flash that does nothing, although that could be taken as a reaction as he still dodges it), and I also added the scan for Teleport having a large range just in case.
Also, the Bolt Tower move doesn't look like a laser, but more like electricity, which is supported by the name of the move to counteract it.
 
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I've been researching a bit on MoM, and... well, it seems nearly the entire cast is at least Low 1-C, the three universes the main cosmology are made of (The Realm of Light, Darkness and Between) view Quadratum, some dimensionally lower structure respectively, as fiction, this is explicitly stated there as an estimation, and this "viewing as fiction" also applies to the realms of Memory (cough, CoM), data (cough, Re:Coded, and this also removes potential of this just being Sora being trapped in that Toy Box game again) and dreams (cough, KH3D and Union X).

As we can see in the Yozora fight this "world" is (At least) 3D with a timeline and all to make a "regular" 4-D cosmology, with the Nameless Star coming from there somwhow confirming it being an "actual" place as she stated and with Riku going there, meaning that there's a possibility to actually list the entire cast bar Yozora and others while in Quadratum as 5D, aka, Low 1-C.

TFW "Like, Is Any of This for Real or Not?" is quite literal

What do you guys think over this?
 
Short answer: no

Long Answer: Viewing something like a game isn't enough to be considered a higher dimension, look at dragon ball heroes.
 
Uhh... they don't view it as a game, in fact this seems to not be directly related to the Toy Box game, they explicitly said it was outside the Realm of Light and the Data Realms, which basically removes any potential of it being within Toy Box, let alone the game itself.
 
Bobsican said:
Uhh... they don't view it as a game, in fact this seems to not be directly related to the Toy Box game, they explicitly said it was outside the Realm of Light and the Data Realms, which basically removes any potential of it being within Toy Box, let alone the game itself.
Click to expand...
Replace game with fiction then, and again, look at dragon ball heroes.

But let me just go into a huger refute since I feel you'll miss the point:

I've been researching a bit on MoM, and... well, it seems nearly the entire cast is at least Low 1-C, the three universes the main cosmology are made of (The Realm of Light, Darkness and Between) view Quadratum, some dimensionally lower structure respectively, as fiction, this is explicitly stated there as an estimation, and this "viewing as fiction" also applies to the realms of Memory (cough, CoM), data (cough, Re:Coded, and this also removes potential of this just being Sora being trapped in that Toy Box game again) and dreams (cough, KH3D and Union X).
Click to expand...
The very scene Zexion mentions the world is on the other side of there's, not that it's a lower realm thus these realms are equal. "Fictional world" in this context is referring to anything on the other side, the other side is merely a parallel universe. Ansem goes on to say it's outside of their reality, nothing about it being a lower realm beneath theirs.


As we can see in the Yozora fight this "world" is (At least) 3D with a timeline and all to make a "regular" 4-D cosmology, with the Nameless Star coming from there somwhow confirming it being an "actual" place as she stated and with Riku going there, meaning that there's a possibility to actually list the entire cast bar Yozora and others while in Quadratum as 5D, aka, Low 1-C.
Click to expand...
All this does is further support that Unreality isn't a lower dimensional realm but a place outside of the main KH reality.
 
Not exactly, they say "fiction" as a reality where light or darkness don't make up the cosmology at all doesn't exist, hence why it was theorized to be unreal. Being outside or in the other side also doesn't necessarily mean it's not lower.
 
Bobsican said:
I've been researching a bit on MoM, and... well, it seems nearly the entire cast is at least Low 1-C, the three universes the main cosmology are made of (The Realm of Light, Darkness and Between) view Quadratum, some dimensionally lower structure respectively, as fiction, this is explicitly stated there as an estimation, and this "viewing as fiction" also applies to the realms of Memory (cough, CoM), data (cough, Re:Coded, and this also removes potential of this just being Sora being trapped in that Toy Box game again) and dreams (cough, KH3D and Union X).

As we can see in the Yozora fight this "world" is (At least) 3D with a timeline and all to make a "regular" 4-D cosmology, with the Nameless Star coming from there somwhow confirming it being an "actual" place as she stated and with Riku going there, meaning that there's a possibility to actually list the entire cast bar Yozora and others while in Quadratum as 5D, aka, Low 1-C.

TFW "Like, Is Any of This for Real or Not?" is quite literal

What do you guys think over this?
Click to expand...
This is a huge no, especially if Yozora comes from here.

The entire idea of this is circular reasoning when you consider Yozora in the picture.
Yozora_Circular_Scaling_Diagram.png

Not only that, it pretty much violates Reality - Fiction Interaction very hard as well. Not every case of viewing something as fiction automatically equates to them being higher dimensional.
 
Bobsican said:
Not exactly, they say "fiction" as a reality where light or darkness don't make up the cosmology at all doesn't exist, hence why it was theorized to be unreal. Being outside or in the other side also doesn't necessarily mean it's not lower.
Click to expand...
I legitimately don't see what any of this debunks, to get 5D you would legitimately need to prove it's lower, all you admitted is they call it fictional because it's a world with no light or darkness that they can't reach. That would seem like an unreal/fictional reality to people whose entire philosophies are based around light or darkness.
 
Oh yeah, I still have to argue on the other CRT for all that exists in the main cosmology of KH is made of either light or darkness.
Not that it would change much anyways.
And Yozora obviously wouldn't scale to 5D as he has yet to go into the "5D" space, he and Sora would just be 3-D while in Quadratum or so.
 
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