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Kingdom Hearts Stat Revision Discussion Thread

Dragonmasterxyz

Dragonmasterxyz

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So in the last thread, we did have a couple comments regarding how the Kingdom Hearts AP is questionable or problematic. While I myself will merely spectate this discussion, this is a thread for everyone who wants to post arguments for or against the current AP ratings.

Update: While AP scaling seems to be nearly decided, it seems that Speed is also something that is called into question.

@Bobsican @GiverOfThePeace @Matthew_Schroeder @Nehz_XZX
 
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3-A Downgrade

First of, Kairi in KHMoM confirms that Xehanort couldn't use yet Kingdom Hearts fully to nuke everybody in KHIII. However, the X-Blade was able to block the purge it was going to do to all the realms, and it is supported that they shouldn't scale like this as they state that it was going to kill them if Sora didn't stop Xehanort. Meaning that the 3-A rating has to go, but Sora, Ventus, Vanitas and Xehanort keep it via summoning Kingdom Hearts with the X-Blade (Sora, Ventus and Vanitas get it as optional equipment). Aka, only KH remains the same and the X-Blade goes down to the tier of the main cast before this mess, even if it upscales easily, which would also include Aqua as she was able to explicitly block a blow from it in KHBbS.

High 4-C downgrade.

This is sad and I'm glad doing this, but... Ansem never got amped by KH in KHI, thus rendering the calc unusable, it doesn't help that when he tried that, he died from KH as it was light, Xemnas got amped by a weakened and broken artificial KH (Thus unquantificably above whatever tier the cast ends up afterwards), and I already went over the Xehanort stuff in KHIII. The Zeus feat is the only thing left, and while Sora states in the Gummiphone that he makes his Thunder magic look like sparks in comparison, he still is able to beat up the titans (Which Zeus couldn't do by himself) and can consistently keep up with Hercules across the entire series even when amped with "godly power". This also happens in early KHIII, so the Thunder magic part may not be too accurate for end-game anyways (Like, all what Sora sees Zeus do is throw some lightning, which doesn't hold well for Thundaga, let alone Thundaza, which Xehanort can do as well).

The good news?
2-C KH upgrade
See here, this changes the current 3-A rating to just 2-C. I also have on the back an at least 3-A feat from Re:Coded, but it seems outlierish now.
I could also try to push for Low 1-C via being able to hold fictional layers between the main three realms and Quadratum as explained in MoM and with the gaps being clear with Sora and Yozora, but there's not enought details for such a large jump without speculation TBH.

In a nutshell:
  • KH itself goes to Low 1-C 2-C
  • The cast loses the tier 3 stuff, only Xehanort, Ventus, Vanitas and Sora get 2-C via the X-Blade (And even then, specifically by summoning/sealing KH with it and nothing else)
  • The cast goes down from High 4-C to either 8-C or Low 6-B
  • The X-Blade goes down accordingly as well, even if it now is "2-C via summoning/sealing Kingdom Hearts"

Thoughts on this? I wouldn't like to see KH going hard into 8-C, and for the record, the best feat I could find beyond the above is this, which was calculated into Low 6-B. That place also talks about the Spellican "feat", but TBH it was never stated that it was the one that did that pocket reality to begin with (Even if otherwise legit as KH3D goes around dream worlds and all of that), so it's not valid for our standards to begin with.
 
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What do you think about the tier 4 part? That part was left quite open.
 
Here's everything I'll summarize.

The only real 3-A thing in series from what I can tell is True KH and no one scales to it since Sora and everyone were going to die if they couldn't stop Xehanort.

X-Blade shouldn't scale physically as it's power is to summon KH it itself isn't equal to KH, Sora only had it also for like, 2 minutes I don't know if we consider that enough for optional equipment.

Ansem was not amped by Door to KH, as revealed in his journal entries:
www.khwiki.com

Ansem, Seeker of Darkness

Ansem, Seeker of Darkness, also referred to as Xehanort's Heartless or simply Ansem or Xehanort, is the Heartless of Terra-Xehanort and a member of the real Organization XIII. He serves as the main antagonist of Kingdom Hearts and the...
www.khwiki.com www.khwiki.com
"Ansem
He tried to open the door to Kingdom Hearts, but fell to Sora in the end.
Once again, Riku finds himself face-to-face with his nemesis."

"A member of the real Organization XIII.

This is Xehanort's Heartless. He was able to regain his original appearance by possessing Riku. In the past, Ansem attempted to open the door to Kingdom Hearts, but was destroyed by Sora and friends before he could succeed.

Despite this, Ansem has returned."
And this is the same door that one-shotted him.

As for the rest, Zeus couldn't beat the titans cause he got in a position where he couldn't use his hands to throw lightning and they used hax on him to make him unable to escape, the minute Herc breaks Zeus out of the rock he starts throwing some lightning and the titans immediately run away.

Also Sora does not scale to a godly amped Hercules, he can't even harm Hercules in that form and needs to exploit his weakness of barrels (this is an actual thing in Greek mythos, look it up).

Also Zeus feat is done via telekinesis off screen I can't see a reason to scale an entire verse to that especially when his feat is above KH's feat, and KH with a small bit of it's power one-shotted Ansem.

Spellicans feat is corrupting the music world which Sora in no way scales to, it's literally explained and shown that Sora cannot break through it himself and needs a "Sound Idea" in order to stop the Spellican's darkness possession. Also this isn't a dream world in the same context as a sleeping world Bob. One is metaphorically sleeping, the other is a literal dream world. This feat still wouldn't be useable even if it was legit because that'd be weird to use a 4-A feat when one of the strongest villains died to a casual attack from a High 4-C door.
 
It's not hax, it is clearly some Lifting Strength limitation at play, not that it changes anything as the rest seems consistent. However, I guess we can also add the barrel weakness to Herc's page later.
 
Bobsican said:
It's not hax, it is clearly some Lifting Strength limitation at play, not that it changes anything as the rest seems consistent. However, I guess we can also add the barrel weakness to Herc's page later.
Click to expand...
Which one the Titans or Zeus? Cause if the latter that is definitely telekinesis unless you're saying Zeus was right next to the stars and pushing them at MFTL+ speeds.
 
Here's also further proof of a much stronger Sora fighting Herc and he can't harm him while he's in god amp
 
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Because he is just being sealed by those. Plus stuff such as Ice Manip isn't taken as hax beyond suffocating I guess, as for it to be hax it has to ignore the target's durability, and then there's heat manip and obscene heat numbers not getting beyond tier 7, it depends on how it's done, and filling someone with a substance of a different remperature doesn't translate to hax as they don't ignore durability. Conventional Absolute Zero is not considered as hax long ago for example out of this, there's different freezing points for stuff that don't necessarily have to be AZ, and the AZ attack is no longer AZ as soon it touches something with an higher temeprature, which includes air, meaning that this sort of hax is only applicable if you directly manipulate the heat of the target, rather than just hit it with an elemental move.
 
"It's not hax because it has a different effect" is quite literally what you just said. No, it's objectively hax. Absolute Zero is considered hax, it's just not considered instant win because it's assumed throwing an absolute zero attack at someone will make it no longer absolute zero.

So no, this was hax idk what you're getting at.
 
Also hax isn't required to ignore durability, that is just a common application of it, on the page itself:
"The most common hax are the ones that ignore durability, and their scale/potency are unrelated to their users' AP & Tier, however, they can be measured with their effectiveness against their targets' Durability. This is because, depending of the hax, the statistics bypassed may actually counter it if they have a higher enough scale. This, however, is not the case with certain hax, examples include Reality Warping, Probability Manipulation, Conceptual Manipulation, and other abilities that simply & logically cannot be countered by high statistics."
 
Kingdom Hearts doesn't deserve to be anything above Tier 6. All of the current ratings on the profiles are wanked and don't work realistically.

Tier 3 Scaling Flaws

Tier 3 is wrong for many reasons. The game, Melody of Memory, basically unconfirmed any sort of scaling to True Kingdom Hearts. Xehanort didn't get to use its full power before Sora pulled a victory over him.

The X-Blade doesn't scale to True Kingdom Hearts either. The entire reason for it was for a statement calling it the counterpart of True Kingdom Hearts. However, the counterpart doesn't prove it scales in this case.

coun·ter·part
/ˈkoun(t)ərˌpärt/
Learn to pronounce
noun
1.
a person or thing holding a position or performing a function that corresponds to that of another person or thing in another place.

Counterpart clearly just means that it's necessary to access and help command True Kingdom Hearts like what Xehanort did here. It doesn't scale to the full power of it physically. Melody of Memory dialogue from Kairi would suggest completely otherwise. Not only that, the fact that Aqua could even comparable to it at all is a massive anti-feat. The X-Blade would be scaled to wherever we're downgrading Sora and co.

We've already discussed why the Re:Coded stuff doesn't work before outside of this thread and on many other threads. There's no reason why that has changed now. It would be an outlier regardless.

Tier 4 Scaling Flaws

This is also flawed. First of all, why did anybody think it was a good idea to scale Twilight Xemnas off the door to Kingdom Hearts' feat? Like literally, Ansem got his ass one-shotted by it and that's a dude who could contend with Sora pretty evenly. That already casts pretty heavy doubt on the situation, but the Kingdom Hearts that Xemnas fused with was ruined, going by his own word when Ansem the Wise's machine was shot at it. We cannot scale Xemnas to something like that when he fused with an incomplete version of it. It'd be an unquantifiable boost that might give him an "At least" rating but that's it.

Ansem was never amplified by all of the worlds or anything like that. It's headcanon at best and not supported by any kind of dialogue. The current reasoning on his profile is completely wrong. In addition, destroying Radiant Garden is a feat similar to what the Heartless do to other worlds, which was already rejected when attempts at getting Tier 5 - 4 were requested through it.

Spellican's feat is outlierish and not something Sora even scales to at all. It should be disregarded.

Xehanort wrecking the Land of Departure isn't a Tier 5 or 4 feat either. He didn't do it on a significant enough scale for this to truly be the case, especially with how it still appears from when it gets transformed into Castle Oblivion.

Zeus' feat is done by Telekinesis, which makes it incredibly doubtful if that should even scale to Sora at all. Considering being a higher tier off of TK is nothing new, I believe it's consistent with the rest of the series that Sora doesn't scale to this either. That seems correct regardless seeing as how Sora outright stated his lightning spells were nothing compared to Zeus.

Suggested Revisions?

Kingdom Hearts should be fine to stay at 3-A. Actually, I think it might be the only thing in the verse deserving of an upgrade to Low 2-C - 2-C, but they should not scale to it.

Xehanort and Vanitas can get a note that they'd be 3-A overtime or only with Kingdom Hearts, not physically as they would downscale to the rest of the cast physically. At most, they could get an "At least" in these keys. The same applies to the X-Blade.

All of them should probably be somewhere in Tier 8 or 7, but they might be Tier 6 based on the Heartless Hans feat. That would need to be accepted though. Speed is also something that's going to be needed to be downgraded to like Massively Hypersonic, maybe FTL at the most.
 
Should I make this into an overall KH stat discussion thread? This way I can make the CRT once everyone decides on something here? (And I don't have to make 2 separate CRTs)
 
Let's keep the Speed for later, Gummi Ships should remain at MFTL+, but that's it.
@Dragonmasterxyz Go ahead
Also, regarding the Re:Coded stuff, Sora's Heartless could be 3-A, but no one should scale to it as it's a blatant outlier for Data-Sora and Mickey to beat it at the moment.
 
Change the thread. It seems AP seems mostly decided (downgrades) and we just need to see if that calc or feat is accepted before the downgrades.

What are the grievances with speed to start that disucssion?
 
Okay, regarding speed...
Let's look at the calcs the cast scales to.
The first one goes for the cast while going on the Gummi Ship, which obviously doesn't apply to the cast itself, we would have plenty of MFTL+ Star Wars otherwise, for example.
Now, for the second one where Ventus reacts to Stitch's spaceship, but not only the calc seems questionable (Pixelscaling could be improved, although this issue is fairly minor), the result is actually just FTL, not MFTL+ at all with the current low-end. It also seems quite outlierish, and it doesn't help that it seems that Ventus didn't really react to it beyond aim dodging.
 
Regarding speed, didn’t Sora fire an energy beam that quickly reached the moon at one point?
 
MFTL+ is based on two things, one of them is objectively false so let's start with that one.

Ventus MFTL+ reasoning is for reacting to Stitch's ship while it's going at full speed, now let's look at the feat


Well that's some pretty cool reacting

The other one is Monstro's feat which was him outpacing and tagging the Highwind but the Highwind wasn't moving and it never moves at speeds comparable to the Highwind.
 
The other laser dodging is iffy and there's consistent amount of times Sora struggles to dodge lightning
kingdomhearts.fandom.com

Thunderaffe

The Thunderaffe (イダテンキリン, Idaten Kirin?) is a Dream Eater that appears in Kingdom Hearts 3D: Dream Drop Distance. Its Spirit version is obtained via Spirit synthesis, while its Nightmare version can be found in Traverse Town and The World That Never Was. You know how fast lightning is? Well...
kingdomhearts.fandom.com kingdomhearts.fandom.com

"Kingdom Hearts 3D: Dream Drop Distance

You know how fast lightning is? Well, these Dream Eaters don't... because they leave it in the dust every time. They move in straight lines, though, so just make sure you stay out of their way."
Mind you this is an enemy when moving at top speed blitz Sora.

Larxene specialize in lightning attacks, which she can call from the sky, implying to be legitimate lightning.






Ursula: She used Triton's Trident which has power over storms and she can still call lightning from the sky without it.




-Gold Beat Heartless: Data says they rain down lightning, most likely referring to their projectile attacks, which are slower than many of Sora's attacks (techniques like Shotlock's aiming, some Shotlock attacks, Airstepping and Keyblade transformations slowdown time and/or make Sora faster in comparison to these) and they're able to electrify metallic materials like real electricity.

www.khwiki.com

Gold Beat

The Gold Beat is an Emblem Heartless that appears in Kingdom Hearts III.
www.khwiki.com www.khwiki.com






In Kingdom Hearts 3, Larxene can transform and maneuver as a lightning bolt and Sora needs to effectively wait for her to get out of her lightning transformation to avoid her.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k8Cy_7m6MDk&t=58&app=desktop

Laser dodging feats might work as a likely higher.
 
There's also Yozora and the laser spam, and the Parasol Beauty firing lasers that actually seem far slower than Sora while using Shotlocks.
And I'm sure Sora can react to Thunderaffe while using Link Block.
 
So checked the Parasol Beauty and a part of the journal noted something interesting:
"Watch for the flash after they've opened their parasols; that's a sure sign you're about to eat beam. The good news is that blasting that laser takes these lades temporarily out of commission. Use that time to make it a permanent retirement!"
From what the journal entry is implying you're aimdodging it.

Context for the Yozora feat required
 
They don't really meet the standards and what you're technically doing is blocking while Yozora does his taunt rather then dodging the laser itself.
 
Wasn't his lasers stated to be like, concentrated nothingness or something? I forget.
 
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