ShrekAnakin
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Agreed with Ploz. It's best to discuss it here.
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Okay, so I found some 4-A feats for the cast, some shakier than others:
First, Ansem's being holds End of the World (Also stated in-game) back on KHI, which holds multiple sorts of pocket realms, some which clearly have an starry sky:
Jiminy states that the card made Traverse Town inside Castle Oblivion (The cards come from Naminé using her powers to make realities from Sora's memories, she also does the same to Riku). Also, Traverse Town clearly has a night sky filled with stars (4-A), and as Monstro is inside as well, considering that it was in the middle of the Realm of Light... yeah, it may be 3-A to Low 2-C, especially considering what KH3D established with how shortly after Pinocchio got inside Monstro they ended up in the Ocean Between as it went in KHI, which could thus include the rest of the Realm of Light, but as I'm sure this is easily questionable, 4-A seems a safe low-end.Second, back in KHCoM...
Third, also in CoM, Marluxia seems to make a pocket reality in the middle of Castle Oblivion, clearly featuring an starry background, this is supported both in the original GBA version and the remake, however, as we never get any sort of explicit statements over those, they may not be that usable.
Also, Naminé somehow has 2-C range, this is also happens here, she's able to make a portal from the Realm Between to the Realm of Darkness, and one from the Realm Between to the Realm of Light, so...
Overall, the cast may be pushable for 4-A, 3-A to Low 2-C is pretty shaky even with the Data-Sora stuff, so I would leave it at a side for now.Yeah, Mickey just forgot about Aqua just a few minutes after losing her, but to be fair, maybe not even Naminé or him could sense her anymore.
I don't know why it'd need to be stated, it's obvious he controls it, that's one of the main plot points of the game and even the secondary canon LN states such. Defeating Ansem in conjunction causes the darkness he controls to disperse thus he's not sustaining it, he's the controller.As for the video posted, it doesnt state he was controlling the darkness, just that it enveloped him, which makes sense since he went through the Final Keyhole
Ansem translation:
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/729712918697869322/795423792473571328/Pages_from_Kingdom_Hearts_Series_Memorial_Ultimania.png ホ ロ ウ バ ス テ ィ オ ン を ふ た た び 訪 れ た ソ ラ は キ ー ブ レ ー ド で 鍵 穴 を 閉 じ る が 、 ア ン セ ム は " 世 の 中 心 " を 目 指 し て 去 っ た あ と だ っ た 。 彼 が 向 か っ た の は 、 に 消 え ゆ く 世 界 の 断 片 か ...docs.google.com
Should mention none of the translations I could acquire for the ansem page from the kh memorial ultimania support the notion he is controlling darkness, rather supports he is sustaining the realm
This may be true, but, while this may be just a design thing, the damage it received was just a gash in the front part while the rest of it appeared to be in good enough condition. Plus, it's likely Ansem's Kingdom Hearts was never complete either, considering there were still many worlds that the Heartless didn't take over, either because they didn't reach them by that time or because they were stopped by Sora. Personally, I think Xemnas' Kingdom Hearts should atleast scale to a fraction of Ansem's, which would lead to Sora and Riku scaling to 1/2 of Xemnas', since they beat him together.
1- At that point Ansem fought Sora, Goofy and Donald many times in a row and was visibly injured before being destroyed by Kingdom Hearts.The argument here is that an Ansem-Riku easily defeated Roxas in 358/2 Days, who should be atleast comparable to Sora. At the end of the first game, Ansem was instantly destroyed by his Kingdom Hearts. There are some points against this:
TBF, I think it's worth noting that Sora doesn't fully scale to this Kingdom Hearts (atleast before later games). It required Sora and Riku together in order to defeat Xemnas powered by an incomplete Kingdom Hearts. I'm saying this because there are people saying "if Sora and other characters are that powerful, why do the villains need to make Kingdom Hearts?". The short answer is "they aren't, atleast not entirely"."
This argument comes from a scene from the movie and the game used to argue that they can't be scaled to Zeus, but it's misinterpreted. Previously in the movie, the rock titan tanked one of Zeus' lightning bolts, but later he threw more than one which caused the damage seen. But even then the titan was still standing and just retreated with the rest, mostly because Hercules joined the battle and released all the gods. Is likely the titans don't even need to scale to Zeus to scale to the constellation feat since in the movie is stated "the gods" can create constellations but it's never specified it's just Zeus who's capable of this.
Sora literally compares his thunder magic to be sparks compared to Zeus, in any verse that's giving off the implication that the character is leagues above you, him being the jack of all trades is irrelevant, his magic is equal to his strength so if Zeus' magic far outweighs him then it thus can be used.One of the Gummi Phone loading screens shows Sora commenting about his lightning magic being inferior to Zeus'. However, we must remember that at this point of the game Sora had lost most of his power, and besides Sora doesn't specialize only on lightning magic nor is he a magic-focused character like Donald, being more of a jack-of-all-trades. Also, this argument makes it seem like Zeus' level of power is completely unreachable to Sora. Even if Sora was weaker than Zeus (at that time) is not by much. 2 titans were able to restrain Zeus, while Sora and his friends could beat 1-2 titans in groups of 3-4.
Another argument is that the constellation feat is above KH's feat of restoring several worlds, thinking that this messes up the series' power scale since at that point the artificial KHs were treated as the most powerful forces in the series at that time. But I think people ignore some details about this: 1- KH's calc is kind of a low-end since in the scene we never see the end of the worlds being restored and just skips to another scene. Therefore we never get to know the total of worlds that were restored. 2- KH's not only restored worlds, but also it's inhabitants. It's likely some of these world contained some individuals that were similarly powerful to the gods of Hercules' world. This is a good possibility considering there are worlds with beings like Genie, who is noted as having "phenomenal cosmic powers".
People argue that Zeus' used telekinesis to perform the feat, which is a power he never used in battle and therefore can't be scaled to others. However this is just a matter of Attack Potency. The feat just tells us the energy Zeus needed to do it, while telekinesis is just a way he has to apply that energy. There's no reason to believe that he can't put that same energy into his other abilities, like his lightning bolts, which should be his main power due to the whole "god of lightning" thing. Another topic I want to talk about is about people thinking that the main protagonists/antagonists don't have feats of their own to make this scaling consistent. There are feats, some of them overlooked in my opinion, that actually support character being on this level.
One of the most straight forward feats. Xehanort creates an orb of darkness (similar to the one that destroyed Destiny Islands) that destroys the Land of Departure and covers it in darkness. Just a reminder, destroying one world in Kingdom Hearts also includes it's respective star. The only argument against this feat would be that Heartless do this all the time by reaching a world's keyhole and taking the heart, making this feat seem unimpressive. But unlike the Heartless, Xehanort is never shown interacting with neither this world's keyhole or it's heart. If he had done that, then he could've just let the world be consumed by itself without the need of creating that giant orb of darkness. Not to mention the Land of Departure was fine and without a change before Xehanort casted the darkness that destroyed it. This feat also brings me to talk about another that I think it's been overlooked.
Upon a returning from the Realm of Darkness, Aqua restored Castle Oblivion to the form of her old home, which in turn also restored the whole world. It's worth noting that Aqua didn't show any signs of strain while doing it and was also noted to be tired and still recovering. This shows that this is not her limit.
During one of the ReMind Data Battle, Xion performs a spell that changes the battlefield by creating a sun. We know this is a replica created from Xion's battle data and that Sora's own data clone canonically fought her as well as the other O13 members' replicas. It's unlikely to be just an illusion or some esthetic background change, considering other feats from the series. It's also confirmed the data battles, also known as Limit Cut battles, showcase the abilities of the bosses without being restrained by gameplay, reflecting the true power of the characters. Just like Aqua's feat, there's no sign of strain or effort from Xion.
This comes from a scene from Melody of Memory, used as supposed proof that Xehanort couldn't use Kingdom Hearts' full power yet. The problem is that statement is taken in the wrong context, since it doesn't clearly state anything about Xehanort being unable to use it and can be taken in different ways. Xehanort could already have had control over it's full power but needed some focus to project that power across all the worlds, then they sealed him in Scala Ad Caelum to buy some time (though he still summoned it).
The EotW not visibly vanishing can be explained by another way, there's just nothing to vanish in that area to begin with, Ansem even calls it an endless void, and KH itself just got sealed from both sides by Sora and Mickey, meaning that there being nothing visibly vanishing isn't an anti-feat, and the stuff that remained appears to be the Realm Between, more specifically the path to Castle Oblivion, as denoted in CoMI don't know why it'd need to be stated, it's obvious he controls it, that's one of the main plot points of the game and even the secondary canon LN states such. Defeating Ansem in conjunction causes the darkness he controls to disperse thus he's not sustaining it, he's the controller.
Actually no, it doesn't support him sustaining at all. Nothing in there implies he sustains it, it just says he goes there and that defeating him will restore all worlds, which is exactly what Door to KH does at the end of the game, this has nothing nor any implication of Ansem sustaining the context is even worse then I thought.
This is specifically what they're talking about with "Restore all worlds" cause the current worlds in KH, aka Tarzan's, Wonderland, etc. aren't in darkness. If anything, to completely debunk the notion that Ansem is "sustaining".
Here you can see the world does not fall apart upon Ansem's death.
So yeah nevermind, it's not even him controlling the darkness, nothing in these translations imply he's sustaining, the defeat of Ansem stops the door from Kingdom Hearts opening darkness upon all worlds, which is consistent with the journal entries.
Wait so let me get this straight, you're attempting to argue Ansem 5-B to 4-A for sustaining a planet, but you also admit this planet is nothingness? This means that you directly either don't have a feat since this is all a void. This is with accepting this possibility that's not at all supported by the narrative, you literally see everything get restored and things go back to normal AFTER KH is sealed on both sides, it's an anti feat your argument of the void is unfounded cause what he actually says is "behold the endless abyss", which isn't a void as you're thinking but actually a "great space". I have no clue where you got the assumption abyss = void from but it's very much unfounded and would need to be proven that's what Ansem meant.The EotW not visibly vanishing can be explained by another way, there's just nothing to vanish in that area to begin with, Ansem even calls it an endless void, and KH itself just got sealed from both sides by Sora and Mickey, meaning that there being nothing visibly vanishing isn't an anti-feat, and the stuff that remained appears to be the Realm Between, more specifically the path to Castle Oblivion, as denoted in CoM
Heartless also generally are amped by the darkness (As clearly seen with them being stronger in the RoD than the Realm of Light), so Ansem can scale to the feat by being amped by the darkness he collected.
Which as we see of Ansem's defeat the collapse happens post heart of all worlds being sealed cause the defeat of Ansem stops him from opening the door unleashing darkness to every world.Kingdom Hearts (All Cutscenes) HD 1.5 Remix 1080p Movie - YouTube
End of the world is made of several world pieces, it isnt just an empty void. Goofy also reaffirms the realm will collapse upon defeating ansem
Darkness was pouring out of the door here, "threatening multiple worlds" isn't a feat, there's an entire reason Bill isn't physically 2-A on his page. His threat to multiple worlds was that he could spread heartless into them to cause them to destroy the worlds in the same manner they usually do. Notice how after that entire darkness bit happens in Hollow Bastion the heartless get stronger in every world.Uhh... the door didn't have darkness to begin with, but light, the darkness the princesses of heart were blocking was related to the darkness from the Keyhole that leads to End of the World, meaning that Ansem was already threatening multiple worlds without even using KH yet.
It has both is the point, there's no real single for either, the other side of the door hosts the realm of darkness. For the light scene, is there any secret guide or alternate explanation for why it came out? I always interpreted it as Sora's conviction turned it into light.Yeah, and when Ansem called for KH light came out instead of darkness, not that much darkness came out from KH anyways.
Wouldn't that also imply the light comes from Riku, Mickey or Aqua since the light comes out of the door the same way?Well, not really as far I'm aware, however, Sora does point out that deep down in the darkness there's light, which also reaffirmed by others in other parts of the series (Most notably KHCoM and KHII), so it seems it's simply naturally light, oh, and now that I think about it, the reason Mickey and Sora sealed the door was to avoid Heartless coming out of it, so the darkness may come from those.
When does that happen?Yeah idk why 5-A got written out. TK feats are perfectly valid, no ifs ands or buts, and Xehanort blatantly yeets a moon.
KHIII Re:MindWhen does that happen?