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Kingdom Hearts Stat Revision Discussion Thread

I brought up the issue with that above, the way the fight went wasn't really Ventus controlling his ship fully and when he does do specific attacks he can't control the arc of the glider, even if this feat was legit it'd be an outlier.
 
GiverOfThePeace said:
I brought up the issue with that above, the way the fight went wasn't really Ventus controlling his ship fully and when he does do specific attacks he can't control the arc of the glider, even if this feat was legit it'd be an outlier.
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I was referring to Metamorphosis. Ventus chased after it on his Keyblade Glider but it still managed to get to the Deep Space ship before Ventus could catch up. Lingering Will using his Keyblade Glider in combat would indicate that it isn't an outlier, if this actually is legit though, it might not be enough depending on the evidence to the contrary.
 
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Lingering Will fight I just pointed out got an actual canon explanation to it, and it was literally just Sora and co. using their strongest attacks on him with them doing nothing and Lingering Will just stopping cause he realized Sora isn't Xehanort, also from what the keyblade glider attack shows it's defo not moving at the same speeds it does when they're using it to travel insterstellar distances. But even if it was legit that does not stop something from being an outlier, idk what started this "there' two feats of this so it's not an outlier" mentality, not only has Sora struggled with lightning dodging, Riku got outright blitzed by Sora's FTL beam, and Sora struggling with laser dodging outright show two hypothetical MFTL+ feats aren't consistent.

Mind you Metamorphosis flying through space can be attributed to travel speed rather then reactions since Stitch going warp mode on his own ship outright blitzed Ventus to the point that he fell off his ship.
 
Okay, I guess we can move onto the range downgrade.
Planetary is fine for Keyblade beams and all, but for every single ranged move that's another story.
I would recommend Extended Melee Range with physical Keyblade moves and up to hundreds of meters with magic.
I'll algo go ahead and request a calc for the blatant FTL thing of Sora that would only scale to him while using Focus and maybe some others on that mode.
 
Ehh... from what I've checked that doesn't seem to be the case, you can see the upper part of the bolt if you tilt the in-game camera, and it can also be used in in-doors places.
Oh yeah, I also have a juicy range feat I got by accident for a Magnet spell, it may border into game mechanics, but it's worth showing at least.
 
www.khwiki.com

Thunder

Thunder, Thundara, and Thundaga are a series of magic introduced in Kingdom Hearts. They utilize the element of Lightning, and are associated with the Lightning material. Thunder spells summon lightning bolts from the sky to rain down on enemies,...
www.khwiki.com www.khwiki.com
It's implied here it's lightning from the sky, no clue how we take this but if so it can be justification for hundreds of meters.
 


Got it
As for the Thunder part, well, there's no source on that, so it sadly has to be dismissed as speculation, otherwise we would take at face value their statement over how the beam between Ventus and Vanitas is made of radiation.
However, Thundaza may go up to the thousands of meters range.

For AP feats:
I think Genie undid a sandstorm in 358/2 Days (It may fall as hax, however)
Larxene's pocket reality in KHIII on Arendelle could be within the tier 6 range (No stars can be seen on the outside of the palace it hosts, I checked)
Ursula's storms in KHI, KHII and maybe even KH3D could use a calculation
 
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Downgrading to Tier 6 seems very dumb. Even if you want to ignore the Zeus feat there's still a ton of Tier 5 stuff.

2-C is dumb and I disagree with the current 3-A scaling.
 
Name those Tier 5 feats, please. We've already gone over the problems with the Tier 4 Stuff.

Nobody is getting 2-C or 3-A out of this, that's why we're downgrading them.
 
I hope you can go in detail.

There's also some plans for 3-A Data-Sora and Sora's Heartless, and some KHUX scaling to an small portion of the cast and with those feats only scaling to them and no one else.
 
Bobsican said:
I hope you can go in detail.

There's also some plans for 3-A Data-Sora and Sora's Heartless, and some KHUX scaling to an small portion of the cast and with those feats only scaling to them and no one else.
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A lot of this comes into doubt considering how Pete, Donald, Goofy, Mickey, and Maleficent are also there.
 
Yeah, they won't scale as it's an outlier on their part at the moment, and there's some consistency for that (Maleficent got stompd by Sora's Heartless, and Data-Sora had to do the main fight even if Mickey helped with hax and probably a bit more).
 
GiverOfThePeace said:
Lingering Will fight I just pointed out got an actual canon explanation to it, and it was literally just Sora and co. using their strongest attacks on him with them doing nothing and Lingering Will just stopping cause he realized Sora isn't Xehanort, also from what the keyblade glider attack shows it's defo not moving at the same speeds it does when they're using it to travel insterstellar distances. But even if it was legit that does not stop something from being an outlier, idk what started this "there' two feats of this so it's not an outlier" mentality, not only has Sora struggled with lightning dodging, Riku got outright blitzed by Sora's FTL beam, and Sora struggling with laser dodging outright show two hypothetical MFTL+ feats aren't consistent.

Mind you Metamorphosis flying through space can be attributed to travel speed rather then reactions since Stitch going warp mode on his own ship outright blitzed Ventus to the point that he fell off his ship.
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There is still Vanitas, so we are talking about three feats actually. Also, Lingering Will attacked because of mistaking Sora for Xehanort and he seems to be fine after the battle, so he did at least a decent job at defending himself until Lingering Will noticed his mistake.
 
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Also, I just remembered, there's still the statement of Lingering Will being above everything Sora faced before (Which goes up to KHII), which would include Hercules and Hades, not that it matters as scaling to the Zeus feat is still questionable as there's nothing supporting that it scales to physical stats.
 
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Well, the KH feat could be 4-A (The stars seen at night on Worlds are within that particular one or so, dimensional barriers prevent proper interaction between each other after all IIRC), but it's still unusable.
 
The calculation for the feat from Kingdom Hearts in KHI was done with the number of stars that were visible on the screen as far as I know, so it could very well be more powerful than what we are currently assuming, though that is only speculation and unquantifiable on top of that. The feat might also not be the limit of what that particular incarnation of Kingdom Hearts can do but that is only speculation and unquantifiable as well.
 
Well, Jiminy's Journal states that Ansem was threatening all the Worlds, so the 200 only shown in a cutscene aren't necessarilly a solid number beyond being a low-end. And we do know that there's as many Worlds as stars, so this is at its lowest 4-A if the statement is reliable for this kind of purpose.
 
Bobsican said:
Well, Jiminy's Journal states that Ansem was threatening all the Worlds, so the 200 only shown in a cutscene aren't necessarilly a solid number beyond being a low-end. And we do know that there's as many Worlds as stars, so this is at its lowest 4-A if the statement is reliable for this kind of purpose.
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It is at the very least not unbelievable since the true Kingdom Hearts can remake the universe.
 
*Multiverse, KH wiping includes the Realm of Light, the Realm Between and the Realm of Darkness
Also Quadratum and so it's actually Low 1-C
 
Nehz_XZX said:
There is still Vanitas, so we are talking about three feats actually. Also, Lingering Will attacked because of mistaking Sora for Xehanort and he seems to be fine after the battle, so he did at least a decent job at defending himself until Lingering Will noticed his mistake.
Click to expand...
The feat there looks nothing like combat or reaction and it looks like dimensional travel at the end, that definitely shouldn't scale to reactions or combat. What does this second part mean? I just explained to you that Sora, Donald, and Goofy were getting clapped the entire fight and their attacks were doing literally nothing to him.

Bobsican said:
Well, Jiminy's Journal states that Ansem was threatening all the Worlds, so the 200 only shown in a cutscene aren't necessarilly a solid number beyond being a low-end. And we do know that there's as many Worlds as stars, so this is at its lowest 4-A if the statement is reliable for this kind of purpose.
Click to expand...
Ansem was threatening all worlds by plunging them all into darkness, not destroying them. The KH feat's 200 is a calculation of the worlds it restored back, so no the feat for Ansem isn't 4-A it's a range feat at best.

Nehz_XZX said:
The calculation for the feat from Kingdom Hearts in KHI was done with the number of stars that were visible on the screen as far as I know, so it could very well be more powerful than what we are currently assuming, though that is only speculation and unquantifiable on top of that. The feat might also not be the limit of what that particular incarnation of Kingdom Hearts can do but that is only speculation and unquantifiable as well.
Click to expand...
It really couldn't since the entire plot for KH1 is quite literally preventing the heartless from destroying all of these worlds, the lights there being the number of worlds is actually moreso a highball then a lowball.

Bobsican said:
Well, the KH feat could be 4-A (The stars seen at night on Worlds are within that particular one or so, dimensional barriers prevent proper interaction between each other after all IIRC), but it's still unusable.
Click to expand...
It restores the stars, not the empty space + stars + distance, can't be 4-A via that.
 
What I'm trying to say with 4-A via the size of each "World" comes from how there's a night filled with stars on most of the ones that have been showcased to be affected, meaning that each "star" is actually a 4-A space, thus making KH itself quite above baseline 4-A on paper.
 
"I just explained to you that Sora, Donald, and Goofy were getting clapped the entire fight and their attacks were doing literally nothing to him."

Where was it stated or implied to be that one-sided? I'm pretty sure that Sora wouldn't have been in nearly as good of a condition as he was in the cutscene after the battle if he was completely helpless. His attacks do not necessarily need to damage Lingering Will for him to be able to defend himself and avoid injuries.

"It really couldn't since the entire plot for KH1 is quite literally preventing the heartless from destroying all of these worlds, the lights there being the number of worlds is actually moreso a highball then a lowball."

Are you saying that not all of these lights are necessarily stars that would represent worlds or how am I supposed to understand this?
 
Bobsican said:
What I'm trying to say with 4-A via the size of each "World" comes from how there's a night filled with stars on most of the ones that have been showcased to be affected, meaning that each "star" is actually a 4-A space, thus making KH itself quite above baseline 4-A on paper.
Click to expand...
Yes, but KH isn't creating the empty space and distance of the night skies, just the stars. This is also assuming the worlds in question it's restoring are 4-A realms which is a huge stretch and a far safer assumption is that it's just recreating the planet since that's what we visually see in KH1's ending.

Each star being a 4-A space =/= it's recreating a 4-A space Bob.
 
Nehz_XZX said:
"I just explained to you that Sora, Donald, and Goofy were getting clapped the entire fight and their attacks were doing literally nothing to him."

Where was it stated or implied to be that one-sided? I'm pretty sure that Sora wouldn't have been in nearly as good of a condition as he was in the cutscene after the battle if he was completely helpless. His attacks do not necessarily need to damage Lingering Will for him to be able to defend himself and avoid injuries.

"It really couldn't since the entire plot for KH1 is quite literally preventing the heartless from destroying all of these worlds, the lights there being the number of worlds is actually moreso a highball then a lowball."

Are you saying that not all of these lights are necessarily stars that would represent worlds or how am I supposed to understand this?
Click to expand...
One of the guides and the LN's entire explanation of the fight is Sora got dropped hard and eventually Lingering Will stopped fighting, this is further consistent with the case that Sora got easily slapped by Terranort who Lingering Will could fight. So yes it was extremely one sided.

I thought what I said was pretty easy to understand but I'll simplify it. Assuming each light = a world is a highball, not a lowball.
 
GiverOfThePeace said:
One of the guides and the LN's entire explanation of the fight is Sora got dropped hard and eventually Lingering Will stopped fighting, this is further consistent with the case that Sora got easily slapped by Terranort who Lingering Will could fight. So yes it was extremely one sided.

I thought what I said was pretty easy to understand but I'll simplify it. Assuming each light = a world is a highball, not a lowball.
Click to expand...
Was it stated that Sora was unable to block or dodge attacks? If he was that helpless, how did he get out of it while seemingly being alright in the cutscene after the fight?

Isn't each star supposed to be a world and Kingdom Hearts is restoring them in that scene? Is it actually a possibility that some of the lights are part of a light show that Kingdom Hearts is making for some reason or what else are the lights supposed to be according to you if they aren't worlds?
 
Mmm... in any case 200 Worlds being covered by that KH seems to be a low-end take of the feat, as the high-end would be 4-A out of having as many Worlds as stars in the sky, or more specifically, all Worlds, otherwise as KH afterwards restored the Worlds, this wouldn't only include the planet and its respective sun, but also the other "actual" stars within it, or in other words, KH restored at least 200 Worlds, some of which are certainly 4-A structures.
Also what Nehz XZX said.
 
Bobsican said:
Mmm... in any case 200 Worlds being covered by that KH seems to be a low-end take of the feat, as the high-end would be 4-A out of having as many Worlds as stars in the sky, or more specifically, all Worlds.
Also what Nehz XZX said.
Click to expand...
That would impy that all worlds were destroyed at some point and got restored at the end of KHI which was obviously not the case since we had worlds to visit in that game.
 
Yes, it seems that was in the long run, rather than what actually happened in the end, the other addition I did while editing that post still could use some input.
 
Bobsican said:
Mmm... in any case 200 Worlds being covered by that KH seems to be a low-end take of the feat, as the high-end would be 4-A out of having as many Worlds as stars in the sky, or more specifically, all Worlds, otherwise as KH afterwards restored the Worlds, this wouldn't only include the planet and its respective sun, but also the other "actual" stars within it, or in other words, KH restored at least 200 Worlds, some of which are certainly 4-A structures.
Also what Nehz XZX said.
Click to expand...
That high end would not be the take at all nothing about KH feat was restoring every world in the sky, it was restoring the worlds specifically destroy during the journey, if you're trying to argue every world was destroyed, that's a pretty massive ******* leap. Also can I get further scans and elaboration on why these worlds are 4-A structures? Cause I feel you're taking something out of context.

Nehz_XZX said:
Was it stated that Sora was unable to block or dodge attacks? If he was that helpless, how did he get out of it while seemingly being alright in the cutscene after the fight?

Isn't each star supposed to be a world and Kingdom Hearts is restoring them in that scene? Is it actually a possibility that some of the lights are part of a light show that Kingdom Hearts is making for some reason or what else are the lights supposed to be according to you if they aren't worlds?
Click to expand...
You realize cutscenes rarely show Sora winded right? Like KH1's final cutscene against Ansem makes it look like he took no damage whatsoever, which is false as shown by several of the entries.

That's an assumption that's not officially confirmed for all we know those lights are meant to be energy from KH itself and not the world, the light show assumption was a bad attempt at trying to make it seem like occam's razor supports you.
 
GiverOfThePeace said:
That high end would not be the take at all nothing about KH feat was restoring every world in the sky, it was restoring the worlds specifically destroy during the journey, if you're trying to argue every world was destroyed, that's a pretty massive ******* leap. Also can I get further scans and elaboration on why these worlds are 4-A structures? Cause I feel you're taking something out of context.


You realize cutscenes rarely show Sora winded right? Like KH1's final cutscene against Ansem makes it look like he took no damage whatsoever, which is false as shown by several of the entries.

That's an assumption that's not officially confirmed for all we know those lights are meant to be energy from KH itself and not the world, the light show assumption was a bad attempt at trying to make it seem like occam's razor supports you.
Click to expand...
I already said to Bobsican that Kingdom Hearts didn't restore every world since obviously not every world got destroyed. I do have to correct you about "during the journey" though. Maleficent and the Heartless were already out there before Sora began his journey and Radiant Garden was destroyed by the Heartless years before KHI.

Considering that KHII has scenes that show Sora being winded and you saying that Lingering Will gave Sora a completely one-sided beatdown with him unable to avoid attacks or injuries, you'd think that they would bother with showing something. The fact that Lingering Will actually thought that Sora was Xehanort during the fight makes me wonder how he actually survived if he wasn't able to block or dodge.

I wasn't referencing Occam's razor or even thinking about it. Why do you even bring concepts like Occam's razoor, gish galloping and strawmanning up if nobody is talking about them or clearly trying to use them on a deliberate basis? Is that some sort of habit of yours? I'd really like you to stop with that sort of thing since I really hate it. It gives me a pretty disgusting and atrocious impression and feeling.

I was bringing up the light show example as a way to emphasize my question as to what you think these lights are supposed to represent if not the restoration of worlds. Considering that the appearance of these lights is basically that of stars shooting up and taking their place in the night sky, I think that the intent is a rather clear one.
 
Nehz_XZX said:
I already said to Bobsican that Kingdom Hearts didn't restore every world since obviously not every world got destroyed. I do have to correct you about "during the journey" though. Maleficent and the Heartless were already out there before Sora began his journey and Radiant Garden was destroyed by the Heartless years before KHI.

Considering that KHII has scenes that show Sora being winded and you saying that Lingering Will gave Sora a completely one-sided beatdown with him unable to avoid attacks or injuries, you'd think that they would bother with showing something. The fact that Lingering Will actually thought that Sora was Xehanort during the fight makes me wonder how he actually survived if he wasn't able to block or dodge.

I wasn't referencing Occam's razor or even thinking about it. Why do you even bring concepts like Occam's razoor, gish galloping and strawmanning up if nobody is talking about them or clearly trying to use them on a deliberate basis? Is that some sort of habit of yours? I'd really like you to stop with that sort of thing since I really hate it. It gives me a pretty disgusting and atrocious impression and feeling.

I was bringing up the light show example as a way to emphasize my question as to what you think these lights are supposed to represent if not the restoration of worlds. Considering that the appearance of these lights is basically that of stars shooting up and taking their place in the night sky, I think that the intent is a rather clear one.
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The only scenes that show him be winded is when he's getting tired, aka having to fight countless nobodies, heartless, etc. Your argument literally implies all of his fights with organization members are casual and he's not getting winded during these. Doesn't matter what the cutscene shows or not I explained to you it was stated how the fight went and Sora was beaten and one-sided. Also the reason he thought Sora was Xehanort wasn't because of power but because of something to do with Vanitas and how Sora looks like him.

Nehz stop bringing up irrelevant shit this is exactly how the previous thread got cluttered by your comments, I'm going to bring up a fallacy if I see you fall under it, end of. If you were bringing up the light in that way then you worded yourself in a way to make it seem like you were trying to attempt an occam's razor.
 
GiverOfThePeace said:
The only scenes that show him be winded is when he's getting tired, aka having to fight countless nobodies, heartless, etc. Your argument literally implies all of his fights with organization members are casual and he's not getting winded during these. Doesn't matter what the cutscene shows or not I explained to you it was stated how the fight went and Sora was beaten and one-sided. Also the reason he thought Sora was Xehanort wasn't because of power but because of something to do with Vanitas and how Sora looks like him.

Nehz stop bringing up irrelevant shit this is exactly how the previous thread got cluttered by your comments, I'm going to bring up a fallacy if I see you fall under it, end of. If you were bringing up the light in that way then you worded yourself in a way to make it seem like you were trying to attempt an occam's razor.
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I'm not using that as an implication that it was a casual fight to Sora, I'm using it as an implication that he wasn't simply taking attack after attack but was also able to somewhat mitigate the damage he took. Vanitas wasn't brought up by the Lingering Will, Lingering Will noticed that Sora was a Keyblade Wielder despite not being the one he chose (Riku). I never mentioned anything about Sora's power. What I meant was that Lingering Will would quite definitely attempt to put an end to Xehanort and if he mistook Sora for Xehanort without Sora being able to do anything whatsoever, Sora would have definitely died.

It's not irrelevant since it's about you being obnoxious. You are casually throwing out comments that can at least be interpreted as accusations and acting like as if calling you out on this is a bad thing.
 
I'm not replying to the irrelevant stuff, this is exactly what cluttered the last thread. If Nehz continues I'll just report him to RVR.

That'd still be a casual fight then since he's not at all winded, if you're fighting someone equal in strength to you or around your level you'd be winded after the fight, to argue because a cutscene doesn't show Sora winded. Also Sora didn't die during that fight because he getting healed. Rest of your point is just useless conjecture.
 
GiverOfThePeace said:
I'm not replying to the irrelevant stuff, this is exactly what cluttered the last thread. If Nehz continues I'll just report him to RVR.

That'd still be a casual fight then since he's not at all winded, if you're fighting someone equal in strength to you or around your level you'd be winded after the fight, to argue because a cutscene doesn't show Sora winded. Also Sora didn't die during that fight because he getting healed. Rest of your point is just useless conjecture.
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That's exactly why you're obnoxious. Are you doing this to everyone who complains about you? Ignoring, accusing and threatening them? By the way, what is the RVR?

Cure spells have been shown to restore stamina and exactly how winded someone ends up being is also depending on the amount of time spent exerting effort among other things. If Lingering Will is too fast for anyone to block or dodge anything from him, then I don't think that there is enough time for healing. The rest of my point that you haven't addressed is the Lingering Will having not thought of Vanitas but Riku and me linking a source for that.
 
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