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Argue this against who? No one was against that.
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Kingdom Hearts Stat Revision Discussion Thread
- Thread starter Dragonmasterxyz
- Start date
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Nothing in that CRT had anything to do with the world being made up of light or darkness, that was agreed upon by everyone, what wasn't agreed upon was nobodies lacking light and darkness which the existence of unreality unironically further supports now.
Bobsican
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That would be weird, Sora can still use Double Form (And countless light techniques, including his basic moves) in Quadratum without issue, so I guess this may be "another" kind of light/darkness, but we lack details to say for sure beyond it simply not being the case.
For now nothing should change as it's too dubious currently TBH, but I pointed this out as I've noticed it could have some usefulness in the future.
For now nothing should change as it's too dubious currently TBH, but I pointed this out as I've noticed it could have some usefulness in the future.
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Sees as fiction isn't a feat 99% of the time and it's not here.
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Change it to "never".
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The fact that Ansem the Wise is just speculating about that makes that entire dialogue merely conjecture as he practically admits it. I do not think anyone would ever want to add something like this so rashly to the profiles, especially when we still know so little about Quadratum.
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Also what's left to deal with on this thread?
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- GIF - Imgur
should mention sora can move in tandem with the light from the sniper
should mention sora can move in tandem with the light from the sniper
Bobsican
He/Him- 21,180
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Okay, it seems the range got a bit skipped over, so that can be talked about while we wait for Matt.
What do you guys think for the range for the main cast going like "Extended Melee Range, Several Meters to Hundreds of Meters with Magic, Planetary with Sealing/Sealing Negation"? Xehanort would also get "Planetary via Creation" or so if the moon he did is accepted as legit.
What do you guys think for the range for the main cast going like "Extended Melee Range, Several Meters to Hundreds of Meters with Magic, Planetary with Sealing/Sealing Negation"? Xehanort would also get "Planetary via Creation" or so if the moon he did is accepted as legit.
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I forgot to post the evidence of this, but I figured I would do so considering the number of people questioning this off-site.
Ansem was not amped by Kingdom Hearts in his fight. The description of Kingdom Hearts III's character entries flat out says otherwise. Even if you look at the context of the fight itself, Ansem only gets to Kingdom Hearts after the World of Chaos boss fight to ask for "supreme darkness". That's the only time Kingdom Hearts plays a role in that fight, and then it completely one-shots him after.
Then there are some arguments about Xemnas still as well. Not only does the description of his character entry note it was completely artificial, but the actual thing is completely shattered by Ansem the Wise before Xemnas merges with it. Xemnas even says this Kingdom Hearts was ruined, so we can't scale it off the other artificial Kingdom Hearts. It serves as an unquantifiable boost for Xemnas in this case.
Also, you heard that right, both of those instances are artificial, according to Ultimania. So no, we can't scale it off the OG Kingdom Hearts. There is absolutely nothing that indicates that.
There are some people trying to scale Ventus-Vanitas off of True Kingdom Hearts too because of the X-Blade. A few problems here... Firstly, the X-Blade itself does not scale to Kingdom Hearts. Just because Master Xehanort called it the counterpart doesn't mean the AP is the same, it's in reference to how its correspondent function is to help summon or seal away Kingdom Hearts. It can help control its power, but it doesn't scale to it physically is the main point. It wouldn't even scale regardless because the X-Blade was incomplete because of the inner clash between Ventus and Vanitas, with the glossary even saying it was incomplete too. This is a very similar problem to the Xemnas situation.
And now we get to the Xehanort situation, which is probably the only genuine contestable evidence for Tier 3/2 Kingdom Hearts. The whole thing about the X-Blade not scaling applies here too. However, Xehanort does do some impressive feats like corrupting Kingdom Hearts and calling a beam of light down from it. The problem comes with the fact that Xehanort was still not using its full power, though. Melody of Memory explicitly deconfirms this when the narration mentions they were going to stop its power from being unleashed. It mentions how Xehanort completely abandons his plan before he can use True Kingdom Hearts' full power too. In the vanilla game as well, Xehanort still implies that all of them would have been purged if it hadn't been sealed away again. So that means the prior feats weren't utilizing the full power of Kingdom Hearts in those instances and/or were impressive enough to be on that level. Scaling Sora to something that's going to outright kill him with ease along with everything else makes absolutely no sense.
It is for these reasons that any sort of scaling to Kingdom Hearts' feats are incompatible with the characters. To do so would be literally ignoring the context of each and every situation.
Ansem was not amped by Kingdom Hearts in his fight. The description of Kingdom Hearts III's character entries flat out says otherwise. Even if you look at the context of the fight itself, Ansem only gets to Kingdom Hearts after the World of Chaos boss fight to ask for "supreme darkness". That's the only time Kingdom Hearts plays a role in that fight, and then it completely one-shots him after.
Then there are some arguments about Xemnas still as well. Not only does the description of his character entry note it was completely artificial, but the actual thing is completely shattered by Ansem the Wise before Xemnas merges with it. Xemnas even says this Kingdom Hearts was ruined, so we can't scale it off the other artificial Kingdom Hearts. It serves as an unquantifiable boost for Xemnas in this case.
Also, you heard that right, both of those instances are artificial, according to Ultimania. So no, we can't scale it off the OG Kingdom Hearts. There is absolutely nothing that indicates that.
There are some people trying to scale Ventus-Vanitas off of True Kingdom Hearts too because of the X-Blade. A few problems here... Firstly, the X-Blade itself does not scale to Kingdom Hearts. Just because Master Xehanort called it the counterpart doesn't mean the AP is the same, it's in reference to how its correspondent function is to help summon or seal away Kingdom Hearts. It can help control its power, but it doesn't scale to it physically is the main point. It wouldn't even scale regardless because the X-Blade was incomplete because of the inner clash between Ventus and Vanitas, with the glossary even saying it was incomplete too. This is a very similar problem to the Xemnas situation.
And now we get to the Xehanort situation, which is probably the only genuine contestable evidence for Tier 3/2 Kingdom Hearts. The whole thing about the X-Blade not scaling applies here too. However, Xehanort does do some impressive feats like corrupting Kingdom Hearts and calling a beam of light down from it. The problem comes with the fact that Xehanort was still not using its full power, though. Melody of Memory explicitly deconfirms this when the narration mentions they were going to stop its power from being unleashed. It mentions how Xehanort completely abandons his plan before he can use True Kingdom Hearts' full power too. In the vanilla game as well, Xehanort still implies that all of them would have been purged if it hadn't been sealed away again. So that means the prior feats weren't utilizing the full power of Kingdom Hearts in those instances and/or were impressive enough to be on that level. Scaling Sora to something that's going to outright kill him with ease along with everything else makes absolutely no sense.
It is for these reasons that any sort of scaling to Kingdom Hearts' feats are incompatible with the characters. To do so would be literally ignoring the context of each and every situation.
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This is where I want to pitch probably the only upgrade of the thread as well.
2-C True Kingdom Hearts:
Yeah, for some reason, we treat True Kingdom Hearts doing a reality wipe as somehow only being 3-A. However, there are many things easily suggesting that it's Tier 2.
I'm going to need to explain the context of this first piece of evidence as it might be confusing otherwise. So the Master of Masters does a monologue about how they will end the world and discard time, all to defeat the darkness. You might ask how this applies to Kingdom Hearts? Well, the Master of Masters is clearly referring to Xehanort in the context. The Gazing Eye allows him to see the future and write down what he's seen in the Book of Prophecies. The Master is fully aware that a Second Keyblade War would happen and that darkness would prevail. A future version of the Master of Masters even sets Xehanort on this path in Re:Mind because he knows he's the key instigator of a Second Keyblade War. So this plan to "defeat the darkness" involves manipulating Xehanort to starting another Keyblade War so that he'd eradicate both light and darkness for a new beginning, as the world had become tainted. Notice how the Master of Masters even notes they'd affect time too. That's pretty clear evidence that it affects more than just the material universes.
However, the original vanilla game also has dialogue to support this. The Japanese version is more supportive of this than the English version is, but you can find rough translations in this blog.
"浄化 世界を元の状態にリセットするのだ = Purification. The World will be reset to its original state/condition."
"だから はじまりの光ー キングダムハーツによって 世界を元からはじめればいい = So, the first lightー by (using) Kingdom Hearts, (we) should start the World from the beginning."
"何もない 真っ白な世界からー = Nothing/empty… from a pure/blank Worldー"
The entire point of Xehanort's plan was to reset their reality in order to begin anew. It logically should be affecting time as well because he also talks about starting it back from the very beginning. The statements from the Master of Masters are only just further proving that's been directly supported for a long while.
Also, this extends to affecting multiple universes as well. We already accept the Realm of Darkness as being a different universe on the site, and Xehanort's reset was going to affect it along with other universes in the Kingdom Hearts reality (using Ansem the Wise here because he lists the ones in their reality off) as well because he wanted to restart absolutely everything from a blank slate.
There are multiple statements of Xehanort affecting time, resetting the world, and affecting multiple universes with True Kingdom Hearts. Its tier should be upgraded to 2-C, and Xehanort should get a "2-C with Kingdom Hearts" adjustment on his profile after this.
2-C True Kingdom Hearts:
Yeah, for some reason, we treat True Kingdom Hearts doing a reality wipe as somehow only being 3-A. However, there are many things easily suggesting that it's Tier 2.
I'm going to need to explain the context of this first piece of evidence as it might be confusing otherwise. So the Master of Masters does a monologue about how they will end the world and discard time, all to defeat the darkness. You might ask how this applies to Kingdom Hearts? Well, the Master of Masters is clearly referring to Xehanort in the context. The Gazing Eye allows him to see the future and write down what he's seen in the Book of Prophecies. The Master is fully aware that a Second Keyblade War would happen and that darkness would prevail. A future version of the Master of Masters even sets Xehanort on this path in Re:Mind because he knows he's the key instigator of a Second Keyblade War. So this plan to "defeat the darkness" involves manipulating Xehanort to starting another Keyblade War so that he'd eradicate both light and darkness for a new beginning, as the world had become tainted. Notice how the Master of Masters even notes they'd affect time too. That's pretty clear evidence that it affects more than just the material universes.
However, the original vanilla game also has dialogue to support this. The Japanese version is more supportive of this than the English version is, but you can find rough translations in this blog.
"浄化 世界を元の状態にリセットするのだ = Purification. The World will be reset to its original state/condition."
"だから はじまりの光ー キングダムハーツによって 世界を元からはじめればいい = So, the first lightー by (using) Kingdom Hearts, (we) should start the World from the beginning."
"何もない 真っ白な世界からー = Nothing/empty… from a pure/blank Worldー"
The entire point of Xehanort's plan was to reset their reality in order to begin anew. It logically should be affecting time as well because he also talks about starting it back from the very beginning. The statements from the Master of Masters are only just further proving that's been directly supported for a long while.
Also, this extends to affecting multiple universes as well. We already accept the Realm of Darkness as being a different universe on the site, and Xehanort's reset was going to affect it along with other universes in the Kingdom Hearts reality (using Ansem the Wise here because he lists the ones in their reality off) as well because he wanted to restart absolutely everything from a blank slate.
There are multiple statements of Xehanort affecting time, resetting the world, and affecting multiple universes with True Kingdom Hearts. Its tier should be upgraded to 2-C, and Xehanort should get a "2-C with Kingdom Hearts" adjustment on his profile after this.
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User blog:The Everlasting/Kingdom Hearts calc transfer: The power of Kingdom Hearts and Zeus' TK | VS Battles Wiki | Fandom
"Each world is also shown to have a star they orbit (Obvious by the fact that they have day/night cycles), coupled with the fact that planets should logically not possess enough luminosity to be stars, this leads us to the conclusion that both the world and star are consumed by the Heartless."
I don't think this part is supported. heartless have no reason to consume stars, nor is this even implied. The brightness from the restored worlds is most likely the light from kingdom hearts moving them back in place and restoring them.
Kingdom Hearts 1 ending. Original music composition. - YouTube
As such it should just be treated as planets being restored. Using earths gbe for reference (several disney worlds seem to be based on earth):
2.487e32J x the 200 worlds counted by everlasting=
4.48e+34 Joules, Large Planet
Update:
Kingdom Hearts Game Movie (All Cutscenes) HD 1.5 Remix 1080p - YouTube
Mickey confirms the stars disappearing, which means kingdom hearts most likely restores them as well
so prior calc should be fine
"Each world is also shown to have a star they orbit (Obvious by the fact that they have day/night cycles), coupled with the fact that planets should logically not possess enough luminosity to be stars, this leads us to the conclusion that both the world and star are consumed by the Heartless."
I don't think this part is supported. heartless have no reason to consume stars, nor is this even implied. The brightness from the restored worlds is most likely the light from kingdom hearts moving them back in place and restoring them.
Kingdom Hearts 1 ending. Original music composition. - YouTube
As such it should just be treated as planets being restored. Using earths gbe for reference (several disney worlds seem to be based on earth):
2.487e32J x the 200 worlds counted by everlasting=
4.48e+34 Joules, Large Planet
Update:
Kingdom Hearts Game Movie (All Cutscenes) HD 1.5 Remix 1080p - YouTube
Mickey confirms the stars disappearing, which means kingdom hearts most likely restores them as well
so prior calc should be fine
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there is a possible planet level feat i would like to share, but i will wait for matt first
ShrekAnakin
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I will be following this thread.
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More input is always appreciated as long as it is constructive.
Bobsican
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Okay, all that's left is @Matthew_Schroeder 's tier 5 feats to mention in detail.
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Bump
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Oh yeah this is a thread that exists.
I need to find a list of feats that exist in an old thread or smth.
I need to find a list of feats that exist in an old thread or smth.
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well we have a feat we can procede with, plus a realm collapse feat and cloud split that need to be calced
Bobsican
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@Matthew_Schroeder I guess I'll have to ask now... how long will you take to find such scans? As in the meantime we could do other CRTs at this pace.
Bobsican
He/Him- 21,180
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@Matthew_Schroeder Uhhh...
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lets just go ahead with the xehanort feat
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Quick update, the Low 6-B feat got sent down to 7-A, so I don't think any tier 5 feat is going to help the verse right now until there's another high tier 6 supporting feat.
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i can get a recalc. that was for method 1
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If my calc gets accepted my original issue subsides since this would make them High 6-B.
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Cyber already informed me of this.
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I don't think Matt is going to be sending Tier 5 stuff any time soon, so I think we might as just discuss it amongst ourselves. I know some people on the Discord were jumping boat from these downgrades, so they should vocalize their problems here rather than privately since this is an on-site thing.
