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Kingdom Hearts Stat Revision Discussion Thread

GiverOfThePeace said:
I don't see the point you're making here for cure spells restoring stamina. That's what all healing does. Cure spells are also come out fast as shown here so your argument of Lingering Will stopping them from curing is unfounded. The rest of your point I don't have to address, it's conjecture.
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You are saying that Sora not being winded indicates a casual battle, this makes cure spells restoring stamina relevant. Cure spells still take time to cast and you would think that they would be able to cast other spells or put up defenses with the same amount of time. Lingering Will having thought of Riku is definitely not conjecture, I don't quite understand where you get that idea from. The link should be enough to prove my point about that.

You really come across as pretty dismissive to me. Is that your actual intent? I'd also still like to know what RVR actually is since you brought it up.
 
There's no existing defense spell and "put up defense" doesn't mean anything to someone considerably stronger then Sora. Curse spell takes very little time and Lingering Will doesn't combo everyone at once so I fail to see what this means this is purely trying to nitpick how an ability works, Sora and co. were beaten one-sided by Lingering Will. That is conjecture it doesn't prove anything you're trying to argue about the fight not being one-sided.
 
GiverOfThePeace said:
There's no existing defense spell and "put up defense" doesn't mean anything to someone considerably stronger then Sora. Curse spell takes very little time and Lingering Will doesn't combo everyone at once so I fail to see what this means this is purely trying to nitpick how an ability works, Sora and co. were beaten one-sided by Lingering Will. That is conjecture it doesn't prove anything you're trying to argue about the fight not being one-sided.
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If Lingering Will is so fast that nobody can block or dodge or even help each other do so successfully, then I don't think that Donald would have the amount of time for healing that he had in that video you've linked. Lingering Will may as well combo all of them at once if he is that much faster.

I wasn't trying to prove that the fight wasn't one-sided with Lingering Will having thought of Riku, I was proving you wrong about Lingering Will having thought of Vanitas. To begin with, Terra never even got to see Vanitas' face before getting possessed by Xehanort.
 
Looked through the comments above and no one said he was so faster tot he point that characters can't get heals off, this is just conjecture. You just decided to interpret one sided fight as someone being blitzed beyond belief and I don't know why.

Oh so pointless red herring, ok.
 
GiverOfThePeace said:
Looked through the comments above and no one said he was so faster tot he point that characters can't get heals off, this is just conjecture. You just decided to interpret one sided fight as someone being blitzed beyond belief and I don't know why.

Oh so pointless red herring, ok.
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If someone cannot block or dodge, then isn't that someone getting blitzed or how can they not block or dodge?

I wasn't trying to mislead or distract, I pointed out that you've stated something wrong and backed it up with a source. Am I not supposed to do that?
 
No it's not the same, it can alternatively mean someone has incredibly higher AP, interpreting me saying they were overpowered and one-sidedly beaten as me saying they were speed blitz is an incredibly weird way to interpret that scenario.

Don't care, you really didn't "debunk" but I'm not going to go over this because it's irrelevant to the topic if you want to debate this you can find a place off site to debate me on this (though I doubt we're ever doing this topic since I only really do VCs off-site). No you're not when the topic is on AP and you try to go off-topic. Stay on topic, it's not that hard.

@Matthew_Schroeder You got the tier 5 compilation yet?
 
GiverOfThePeace said:
No it's not the same, it can alternatively mean someone has incredibly higher AP, interpreting me saying they were overpowered and one-sidedly beaten as me saying they were speed blitz is an incredibly weird way to interpret that scenario.

Don't care, you really didn't "debunk" but I'm not going to go over this because it's irrelevant to the topic if you want to debate this you can find a place off site to debate me on this (though I doubt we're ever doing this topic since I only really do VCs off-site). No you're not when the topic is on AP and you try to go off-topic. Stay on topic, it's not that hard.

@Matthew_Schroeder You got the tier 5 compilation yet?
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If there is no overwhelming speed difference, then Sora did probably dodge attacks from Lingering Will. You were insisting the whole time that Lingering Will made it impossible for them to block or dodge which doesn't make sense if he isn't significantly faster. Being stronger allows one to break through a block but it doesn't prevent someone from blocking and without superior speed it does nothing against the opponent dodging.

Unless you're providing actual evidence that Lingering Will actually thought of Vanitas I'm not going to discuss that with you. Your arguments were in regards to the topic and you were providing what was from what I could tell false information. Pointing that out is only right in my opinion and we can simply move on after that. The only reason we were dicussing about that part over a multitude of comments was you misunderstanding me, so try not do that from now on.
 
All I insisted was that the fight was one-sided, being able to dodge several attacks doesn't suddenly negate that.

Do I need to get a mod to explain that why Lingering Will called Sora Xehanort in a discussion about Sora's AP isn't at all a relevant point, that was a side point I brought up, like I said you want to debate this, it will be off site or on a relevant thread. Stay on topic.

Move on after that
Was mad I wasn't responding to the Vanitas point
Click to expand...

Anyways as far as I can see Nehz agrees Terranort is stronger so I see no reason to continue this discussion, just putting him on ignore and focusing on what this thread is meant for, Matt needs to post the tier 5 compilations and then we're basically done here.
 
So can you guys some up the currently accepted AP and Speed ratings w/o the Tier 5 stuff from Matt?
 
Dragonmasterxyz said:
So can you guys some up the currently accepted AP and Speed ratings w/o the Tier 5 stuff from Matt?
Click to expand...
Atm tier 6 calc @PlozAlcachaz mentioned and we agreed to
"Massively Hypersonic+ with FTL techniques, FTL with Focus" for speed though I noted it'd be nice if people can comment on whether or nto Focus should be considered a legitimate canon element to Sora or just a game mechanic.
 
Well, Focus Syphon makes it clear that it is there at least, it's not like the other Syphon abilities with Sora reloading it by taking damage, but it's explicitly an special Shotlock to refill it by absorbing Focus from the targets respectively, and out of how Sora can't focus as it is only avaiable when it runs out, nothing is slowed down in his perspective while charging it, unlike regular Shotlocks and Airstepping.
 
GiverOfThePeace said:
All I insisted was that the fight was one-sided, being able to dodge several attacks doesn't suddenly negate that.

Do I need to get a mod to explain that why Lingering Will called Sora Xehanort in a discussion about Sora's AP isn't at all a relevant point, that was a side point I brought up, like I said you want to debate this, it will be off site or on a relevant thread. Stay on topic.



Anyways as far as I can see Nehz agrees Terranort is stronger so I see no reason to continue this discussion, just putting him on ignore and focusing on what this thread is meant for, Matt needs to post the tier 5 compilations and then we're basically done here.
Click to expand...
I said that Sora was able to avoid or mitigate damage to some degree during the course of the battle. That's all.

I already said that I don't want to discuss that unless you bring up evidence to back up what you are stating regarding that. If you stop bringing it up yourself, I'm not going to say anything about it myself.
 
Also, regarding Drill Dive, as the laser clearly hasn't moved more than three meters after Sora is done, with Sora also clearly traveling far more than three meters...
Well, this is actually quite above FTL (I could easily calculate it with some formulation for this, which is around IIRC), the problem is that it could go up to FTL+ quite easily.
And before the outlier argument is thrown in, this only is the case with this particular move and Noise Flux, which is practically the same move, so Sora would only be this far with those moves.
Cinematic Timing rules don't translate as well for a game (As it clearly wasn't planned at the time it was written), so I'm open for thoughts.
 
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I don't think this would be an outlier if focus is considered a legitimate mechanic since this only ever scales to a specific attack and as far as I remember no one can really react to him in that state.

Bobsican said:
Well, Focus Syphon makes it clear that it is there at least, it's not like the other Syphon abilities with Sora reloading it by taking damage, but it's explicitly an special Shotlock to refill it by absorbing Focus from the targets respectively, and out of how Sora can't focus as it is only avaiable when it runs out, nothing is slowed down in his perspective while charging it, unlike regular Shotlocks and Airstepping.
Click to expand...
That doesn't really sound like direct proof focus is canon, it'd be the same thing as saying the drive gauge is canon because there's various abilities in KH 2 that allow the drive gauge to be filled faster. Also even if we treated specifically that as canon, that happens to be the one focus that doesn't slow down time.
 
Slowing down time perhaps isn't the best wording, as said before it seems to just be Sora concentrating himself to have an slower perception over the stuff around him (Meaning that he gets higher reaction speed than normal in exchange for stamina), although there's no actual confirmation as far I could find.
 
I said slowing down time because that's what the link for focus syphon says, replace slowing down time with your concentrating thing and it's the same result.
 
Eh, fair enought.
Anyways, I guess I'll start trying to calculate the feat.
Also, I went ahead and asked the KH Wiki folks over this, it seems there's nothing actually confirming it being a canon thing, but they do agree that it's just the user's senses increasing accordingly as the word "Focus" would imply, not that it changes much, but I guess that would lead into a compromise over this rating going just under a "likely" prefix.
 
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Also, regarding AP... what about the Shotlocks of Oathkeeper and Oblivion? Stellar Inception involves the user summoning a galaxy from which multiple stars come out to targets. I'm sure Giver mentioned it before and I found it as questionable for anything in tier 4 or above, but I wonder what others think on it.
 
It never got brought up directly in here from what I recall, but yeah, I don't think it could be used for that kind of purpose.
 
I'm sending a response from Speedster to this thread. He told me he's having trouble logging into this Forum on Discord, so he wanted me to send this.

“I wanted to mention a couple characters getting a possibly/likely far higher. MoM due to a started from Nomura that he's an actual master above Keyblade Masters and above Luxu who implied he could beat Sora with a Keyblade. Xehanort regarded as being the most powerful Keyblade Master in history would get him that as well, anyone who scales off that like Sora who beat him solo twice, and Yozora since there's the ending where he can beat Sora.”

I agree with his proposals by the way. I'm a little iffy on Yozora considering we don't know for sure which ending is truly canon, but I do agree Xehanort and MoM should get these notes for sure.
 
Anyways, I've been looking for any range feats above the Hundreds of Meters range, and from some basic math I did, the place where Sora fights Dark Inferno holds a diameter of about 50 meters, and out of this it's safe to say that not even Big Magic Mountain gets to Kilometers range.
However, we can start listing the moves that would get the Hundreds of Meters range:
  • All Shotlocks, especially Infinity Circle as it can fill the entire area the Dark Inferno fight takes place with an omnidirectional wave of energy.
  • All magic techniques that are ranged (For example, KHII Firaga and Ripple Drive wouldn't apply)
  • Nano Arms and Double Form's last combo finisher
  • Moves related to Double Arrowguns, Magic Launcher, Hunny Blasters and Hunny Launcher.
  • Ultimate Finish of Ultimate Form, Mirage Staff and Double Form.
  • Teleport (The Ultimate Form move action, I can provide an scan if needed for the teleportation range).
  • Big Magic Mountain, as said before.
 
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for the first two, ventus and terra capable of fighting and reacting to enemies while on their gliders, and the gliders are going full speed

for the last 3 links:
Sora releases Roxas' heart (last link), which then flies off to the replica body on another world, the comes back. Xemnas somewhat reacts to this (roxas' re-entry)
 
got a more solid feat:
KINGDOM HEARTS 3 Gameplay Walkthrough Part 10 [1080p HD 60FPS Xbox One X] - No Commentary - YouTube

KINGDOM HEARTS 3 Gameplay Walkthrough Part 10 [1080p HD 60FPS Xbox One X] - No Commentary - YouTube

1- Goes in a straight line. 2- Burns instead of exploding upon contact. 3- Comes from an electronic/technologic source. 4- It's referred to as a laser by both the characters and game

image0.png (2048×1365) (discordapp.com)
image0.png (2048×1415) (discordapp.com)
image1.png (2048×1536) (discordapp.com)

He starts moving basically as soon as the beam fires, and he does move in-tandem with it
 
Regarding the MHS+ low-end, I find it questionable to assume that just because the lightning comes from above it's automatically cloud to ground lightning, considering that the magic just makes them come from a bit above as seen in-game and can be used in-doors, this also applies to Larxene as she's fought inside a regular Castle Oblivion room. Thunderaffe is the only thing left, but at that point higher feats seem more consistent.
And I'm neutral with a regular "FTL" being the low-end instead if the feats above are to be taken, as the high-end would range from FTL+ to MFTL+.
 
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