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Kingdom Hearts Stat Revision Discussion Thread

Ansem and Data-Xehanort had some beam-based moves as well, but we likely will go back to the issue of aim dodging again, even if Sora can react just before it as shown with Critical Counter. This is the DMC issue all over again.
 
As of now MHS seems more consistent though I could see
"Massively Hypersonic, likely higher, FTL Attack Speed with Keyblade" working.
 
"higher" could just be Relativistic as there's no other end they could be than just "higher" in the sense of being above baseline MHS
 
Bobsican said:
"higher" could just be Relativistic as there's no other end they could be than just "higher" in the sense of being above baseline MHS
Click to expand...
"Furthermore, higher may also be used to denote a case where the character is possibly or likely a higher tier, but to what degree is not specified. This is specifically referring to cases such as “At least 4-B, likely higher” or “At least Solar System level, likely higher”." Ignore that it's using AP tiering obvs but this can fall under the same case for speed, we have no true way of telling if half of the laser dodging feats are legit lasers and the other laser dodging feats are aim dodging, getting relativistic out of that is a huge stretch and higher is a far safer end.
 
Bobsican said:
Ansem and Data-Xehanort had some beam-based moves as well, but we likely will go back to the issue of aim dodging again, even if Sora can react just before it as shown with Critical Counter. This is the DMC issue all over again.
Click to expand...
TBH Critical Counter supports that Sora and some others can react to those just before they hit, which would fall as Relativistic or so.
This kind of stuff is accepted for DMC IIRC, after all.
 
What doubly makes me think this is a game mechanic move looking into the page is that it's an ability only obtainable in critical mode, which is likely there to make fights easier due to how hard they are in critical mode:

Critical Counter

Critical Counter is an ability in Kingdom Hearts III. It allows the user to increase the damage delivered by reprisals by blocking right before an enemy attack lands.
www.khwiki.com www.khwiki.com
 
All lasers fall as that, but I guess a legitimate laser shouldn't push someone back per the standards
 
It's a single heartless species that is the only one with a real legitimate proof of it shooting actual lasers and Sora is required to aim dodge.

An ability you only get at the start of the hardest difficulties which is safe to say is given to make fights easier and reward you for blocking is very game mechanicish to me. This also adds on to the fact that KH 3's entire thing is Sora lost all of his abilities again and then he suddenly has this completely new ability out of nowhere, not during story or anything like in KH2 but just from the get go. I think it's safer to go with the higher route by this point.
 
I also agree with downgrading pretty much everything but the Kingdom Hearts itself from 3-A/Low 2-C/2-C/whatever, and of course also agree with downgrading the High 4-C since it is unusable.
 
GiverOfThePeace said:
It's a single heartless species that is the only one with a real legitimate proof of it shooting actual lasers and Sora is required to aim dodge.

An ability you only get at the start of the hardest difficulties which is safe to say is given to make fights easier and reward you for blocking is very game mechanicish to me. This also adds on to the fact that KH 3's entire thing is Sora lost all of his abilities again and then he suddenly has this completely new ability out of nowhere, not during story or anything like in KH2 but just from the get go. I think it's safer to go with the higher route by this point.
Click to expand...
Would an scan of Sora using a Shotlock while it fires a laser be usable to measure his top speed (With a calc, of course)? Sora perceives everything in his surroundings quite slower while using the Focus gauge and so on, after all, so it could be a proper measure of his reactions.
 


Okay, this likely is FTL
Sora starts Drill Dive as soon as the Parasol Beauty on the top right corner is about to fire the laser, and note how that when Sora is done, the beam hasn't even landed yet.

You can also see that I timed it well enought as seen with the Parasol Beauty doing it with no alterations here:


For more accurate results than just baseline FTL a calc could be done.
 
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Bobsican said:
Would an scan of Sora using a Shotlock while it fires a laser be usable to measure his top speed (With a calc, of course)? Sora perceives everything in his surroundings quite slower while using the Focus gauge and so on, after all, so it could be a proper measure of his reactions.
Click to expand...
That sounds more like perception manipulation then a speed feat that'd scale to him reguarly.

This also depends on if focus gauge's slow down is considered a canon element to Sora and co.
 
This also happens with Riku, Kairi, Aqua and Roxas when played as them. In any case it is clear that Sora moves quite faster than the laser. I could try to check the in-game description for it later.
Perception Manipulation for something like this doesn't seem to be exactly the case, quickster characters don't get Perception Manip just by seeing their own surroundings slower, for example.
Okay, from what I've gathered, there's no details on how the Focus Gauge particularly works, but as the name says, it is simply the user focusing to enhance their own senses. This is supported by the case for when this gauge runs out, Sora no longer sees stuff as "slower" when used, and instead tries to use Focus Syphon over a Shotlock, for example.
 
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Do we have a calculation for the speed of Keyblade Gliders? The Lingering Will makes use of his Keyblade Glider in combat and Vanitas is shown to be capable of traveling the Lanes between like a Keyblade Glider which is one of the justifications for his speed on his profile.
 
That reminds me... Ventus fights an Unversed (Metamorphosis) in the middle of his space travel. And in this state he still holds some physical moves (Most notably throwing a portion of the Keyblade Glider to it then taking it back), so it easily scales to his own reactions as well.
 
Bobsican said:
This also happens with Riku, Kairi, Aqua and Roxas when played as them. In any case it is clear that Sora moves quite faster than the laser. I could try to check the in-game description for it later.
Perception Manipulation for something like this doesn't seem to be exactly the case, quickster characters don't get Perception Manip just by seeing their own surroundings slower, for example.
Okay, from what I've gathered, there's no details on how the Focus Gauge particularly works, but as the name says, it is simply the user focusing to enhance their own senses. This is supported by the case for when this gauge runs out, Sora no longer sees stuff as "slower" when used, and instead tries to use Focus Syphon over a Shotlock, for example.
Click to expand...
He specifically only ever sees his surroundings as slower when he enters the mode where he needs to use a shotlock hence why I said it's likely not canon cause when he's out of that state the laser is far faster to him. I don't think I'm comfortable with using an ability that really seems like a game mechanic since I don't ever remember slow down being shown in any cutscene when a character uses shotlock.
 
Well, that appears to be because most other Shotlocks don't keep the enviroment "slowed down" while used (In fact, note that the enviroment seems even slower to Sora's perspective while using this Shotlock). The charge part being slowed down shows that it's just the user's perception, which naturally can't be seen in a cutscene without going into the user's perspective.
 
Bobsican said:
That reminds me... Ventus fights an Unversed (Metamorphosis) in the middle of his space travel. And in this state he still holds some physical moves (Most notably throwing a portion of the Keyblade Glider to it then taking it back), so it easily scales to his own reactions as well.
Click to expand...
Took a look at the fight and no he can spin his glider around but he can't control his arc and the way he fights in that state is extremely limited.
 
Bobsican said:
Well, that appears to be because most other Shotlocks don't keep the enviroment "slowed down" while used. The charge part being slowed down shows that it's just the user's perception, which naturally can't be seen in a cutscene without going into the user's perspective.
Click to expand...
Then that slowed down part is just a game mechanic since it's never a concept shown in cutscene. It could very easily be shown in cutscene yet they never do it. All that informs me is that they made that mechanic so it's easier for you to charge shotlocks without getting combo'd.
 
Ok yeah no that slow down thing is definitely a game mechanic. Birth by Sleep, the very game that introduces shotlocks, doesn't have the slow down mechanic when you're charging
 
I mean, all Shotlocks grant invulnerability frames (Otherwise Ragnarok would suck, for example), so there's no reason for that to be the case beyond aestetic, which would show that this is a legitimate mechanic speed-wise.
Note that by then Sora already defeated Lingering Will, and overall the power of the cast raised by then.
 
Bob this isn't a legitimate mechanic speed wise it's not even an existing canon mechanic it's literally a game mechanic. BBS outright shows this that slow down thing isn't usable for speed.
 
I mean, that's a different move, and even then, moves such as Sonic Blade vary between games in practical usage beyond the way it's done. There's also how it's one of the few Shotlocks that slow down everything else while used by Sora's perspective (Hint, most Shotlocks are just homing proyectiles with a non-slowed down enviroment by Sora's perspective), so it doesn't seem like a game mechanic.
Most moves don't appear in a cutscene and we don't just claim because of this "it isn't usable", otherwise plenty of game verses would be downgraded.
Even if it isn't canon it still showcases his potential, and so it's an usable feat.
 
Sonic Blade has always been consistent in use


Idk why it being a different move is relevant the move itself isn't the issue the problem is that the mechanic of shotlock charging causing slow down is clearly a game mechanic made for easier play and isn't usable.

Except your issue is this is a mechanic that literally isn't consistent with how it works in a previous game it's introduced in, clearly made for gameplay purposes and you're attempting to give a speed feat to it, that's not at all usable. Also I'm sick and tired of that "X needs to be downgraded" downgrade it then.

No, it's not a usable feat. The Canon explanation actually outright explains they tried to use their strongest attacks on him and it did nothing ending with Lingering Will stopping his fight with Sora cause he realized he wasn't Xehanort.
 
Note that Sonic Blade started as a grounded move and it eventually became faster, then usable on the air as well, not that it's the main point anyways.
I mean, there's plenty of Shotlocks that sacrifice reliability for damage output and/or range as seen with Cluster Cannonade having a quite large loading time compared to most Shotlocks when actually used.

I would like to see the thoughts on others on if a feat doesn't happen in a cutscene it isn't usable, plenty of game verses would lose a lot.

Oh, makes sense, at least Lingering Will can upscale durability wise, I guess.
 
I don't see how speeding up a move in later games where the combat is faster is the same as not having a mechanic at all and then suddenly getting it in the game that's known for being one of the easiest in the series.

I don't see what this helps support for your point, I'm not talking about the shotlocks themselves I'm talking about the charging mechanic in which the slow down mechanic specifically doesn't exist.

Go ahead but that's not my main point for this anyways, it's literally a mechanic that slows down everything to charge a shotlock which isn't a thing in OG BBS that's like a textbook game mechanic. The cutscene point is supporting evidence.
 
Well, mechanical development could have happened between BbS and KHIII, and this seems to be the case with this mechanic also appearing as it is in KHIII in 0.2, supporting precedent on it being around, and so this can get more priority than BbS on this regard.
However, as you've said, the issue is if the "charge" part is a game mechanic, which I've already replied multiple times by pointing out that it's just the user's own reactions (and therefore everyone else wouldn't notice this mental concentration being done, which of course would include the viewer in a cutscene), no every writer is going to portray every single detail in a cutscene for a game whose main point per definition is to be played in the first place, with such details just being added there in a more "direct" fashion, so just because "they could have added it into a cutscene" it doesn't mean "it isn't in in a cutscene, therefore it is to be taken as a game mechanic even if it's a documented technique the guy in question can do".
I'll also mention once again just in case that no Shotlock holds the user seeing everything else slowed down beyond Drill Dive (The one showed above) and Noise Flux, showcasing that this isn't a game mechanic as it doesn't happen with every Shotlock.
 
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All you provided was further proof that this shouldn't be taken as a canon element. Arguing it's just the users own reactions when that is not at all a consistent showing of their reactions is faulty, I did not think I needed to explain that but I will now. You're arguing Sora, who fights an enemy the journal entry literally states that you need to aim dodge and views the attack as a huge threat, can actually view said enemy in such a slow speed that Jiminy's journal is contradicted and we should just drop it. This is completely unfounded and you're using a gameplay feat of a mechanic that's a clear as day game mechanic when lore already shows via the journal Sora does not view the laser that slow and needs to aim dodge it. This is the extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. Prove this is a canon element of Sora's reactions without a shadow a doubt, objective proof mind you, no interpretations, no "well this would downgrade other verses", none of that objective proof or this isn't usable whatsoever.

So what you're arguing here is he needs to use a specific attack to slow down his perceptions, which would still not scale to him reguarly.
 
It isn't even a "huge threat", it's still fodder, in fact Jiminy's Journal just mentions that it is a hint that it's about to fire the laser, not that it is a necessary clue to dodge it.
I'm fine if it just scales to him while using this move, as I can see why this wouldn't apply to everything else.
I guess it would go like "Massively Hypersonic+ with FTL techniques, FTL with Focus"
 
Bobsican said:
That reminds me... Ventus fights an Unversed (Metamorphosis) in the middle of his space travel. And in this state he still holds some physical moves (Most notably throwing a portion of the Keyblade Glider to it then taking it back), so it easily scales to his own reactions as well.
Click to expand...
I didn't think of that. Doesn't Metamorphosis being able to fight Ventus on his Keyblade Glider and being able to go to the Deep Space ship fast enough to warrant Ventus having to search for it there have some implications for its speed?
 
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