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Kingdom Hearts: KH and Zeus are a lie plus KH (World) upgrade

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Also, for 5-A, does Xehanort ever use telekinetic attacks after merging with the other Seekers of Darkness? If he does, then I don't see why not give him and those who may scale to him a solid 5-A rating, because that is part of our standards on telekinetic feats, IIRC.
 
Also, for 5-A, does Xehanort ever use telekinetic attacks after merging with the other Seekers of Darkness? If he does, then I don't see why not give him and those who may scale to him a solid 5-A rating, because that is part of our standards on telekinetic feats, IIRC.
Let's see... this would really only be the final fight Sora does against him alongside Donald and Goofy, so no.
However, I do have to mention that as Sora time travels back to the past shortly after and re-fights some of the True Organization XIII members, I think that this could lead into the rest of them scaling to 5-A in some way to remain consistent, that's why everyone kept "possibly 3-A" beyond Sora, Donald, Goofy and Xehanort before the downgrades, after all.
 
The Xehanort Replicas merged together and fought against Kairi and Sora in Re:Mind. Twelve of the thirteen Keyblades said version of Xehanort used are wielded telekinetically if I'm not wrong.
 
Let's see... this would really only be the final fight Sora does against him alongside Donald and Goofy, so no.
However, I do have to mention that as Sora time travels back to the past shortly after and re-fights some of the True Organization XIII members, I think that this could lead into the rest of them scaling to 5-A in some way to remain consistent, that's why everyone kept "possibly 3-A" beyond Sora, Donald, Goofy and Xehanort before the downgrades, after all.
I mean, Xehanort with the χ-blade is clearly far above Sora, to the point that he casually no-sells Sora's full power and then one-shots him when he releases his own full power. Sora needed an amp to be able to overpower Xehanort at that point. As for Re:Mind, I don't even recall Sora going back to fight the True Organization XIII all over again. The Sora that fought them then is still the same Sora that fought them in the original timeline- in fact, the whole point of Re:Mind is that Sora needs to connect the hearts of the Seven Guardians of Light to restore Kairi's heart before his past self defeats Xehanort.

The Xehanort Replicas merged together and fought against Kairi and Sora in Re:Mind. Twelve of the thirteen Keyblades said version of Xehanort used are wielded telekinetically if I'm not wrong.
In that case, I'd definitely advocate solid 5-A for Armored Xehanort and those that have been agreed to scale to him (Sora, the χ-blade, and Kairi and Mickey while amped by Sora).
 
I mean, Xehanort with the χ-blade is clearly far above Sora, to the point that he casually no-sells Sora's full power and then one-shots him when he releases his own full power. Sora needed an amp to be able to overpower Xehanort at that point. As for Re:Mind, I don't even recall Sora going back to fight the True Organization XIII all over again. The Sora that fought them then is still the same Sora that fought them in the original timeline- in fact, the whole point of Re:Mind is that Sora needs to connect the hearts of the Seven Guardians of Light to restore Kairi's heart before his past self defeats Xehanort.
Sora fighted Terranort alongside Lingering Will, which wasn't something that happened in the original timeline.
 
Sora fighted Terranort alongside Lingering Will, which wasn't something that happened in the original timeline.
Wouldn't that just be an outlier, though? Sora got stomped by base Xehanort prior to entering Scala ad Caelum, where he can somehow contend with Armored Xehanort, who has Terranort as a component of him. Not an argument against 5-A as a whole, mind you, but it goes to show that the gap in strength between Terranort and Armored Xehanort is too large for the former to downscale from the latter.
 
Ursula in both the game and the manga states that she rules the seas and that the sea and all its spoils bow to her power, and after her death, Flounder mentions that the seas feel calm. However, we only see her warp a small part of the ocean - the area in which she fights Sora and friends - and nothing else in Atlantica was affected, as we can see by everything being fine after the fight.

I'm not saying I disagree with High 6-A, because she definitely does have statements of that level, but I want all points to be considered in case said statements are hyperbolic.
The one part we see warped can easily be put as game mechanics since Flounder's statement shows it clearly extends beyond that one area.
 
Also, for 5-A, does Xehanort ever use telekinetic attacks after merging with the other Seekers of Darkness? If he does, then I don't see why not give him and those who may scale to him a solid 5-A rating, because that is part of our standards on telekinetic feats, IIRC.
The best telekinetic attacks we see from him after that 5-A feat is that he pulls out meteors from dark orbs, but then the meteors fall down themselves without him controlling it, hence why possibly 5-A is the scenario here.
 
The one part we see warped can easily be put as game mechanics since Flounder's statement shows it clearly extends beyond that one area.
Fair enough.
The best telekinetic attacks we see from him after that 5-A feat is that he pulls out meteors from dark orbs, but then the meteors fall down themselves without him controlling it, hence why possibly 5-A is the scenario here.
As pointed out earlier, Xehanort in the same fight where he performs the 5-A feat wields twelve keyblades that are most likely being controlled by telekinesis. What do you think about that?
 
As pointed out earlier, Xehanort in the same fight where he performs the 5-A feat wields twelve keyblades that are most likely being controlled by telekinesis. What do you think about that?
That's the reason it's a possibly, since from what I've asked in a previous thread you don't auto scale telekinesis potency to every telekinesis feat.
 
Wouldn't that just be an outlier, though? Sora got stomped by base Xehanort prior to entering Scala ad Caelum, where he can somehow contend with Armored Xehanort, who has Terranort as a component of him. Not an argument against 5-A as a whole, mind you, but it goes to show that the gap in strength between Terranort and Armored Xehanort is too large for the former to downscale from the latter.
Technically, Terranort overpowered Sora. Sora managed to put up a fight and damage him but Terranort ultimately defeated him anyway.
 
Technically, Terranort overpowered Sora. Sora managed to put up a fight and damage him but Terranort ultimately defeated him anyway.
That just makes it even worse. Sora loses to Terranort and gets stomped by base Xehanort, yet he can fight and overpower Armored Xehanort, whose being includes those two plus eleven other people and should realistically be far more powerful than his individual components? At this point, I'm convinced that at least the first Armored Xehanort fight is an outlier for Sora, which isn't helped by the fact that it takes place mere moments after Sora getting wrecked by base Xehanort as well as before Sora being overpowered by Terranort.

I have nothing to say on the second Armored Xehanort fight for now, but I'll look into that later.
 
Well, it seems that Sora was caught off guard, so I wouldn't really say that Terranort suddendly became far above him in the same way we don't take Sulley yeeting Vanitas as... on second thought, yeah, it seems outlierish.
 
I wasn't trying to say that so much as I was saying that Sora just shouldn't scale to Armored Xehanort on account of being defeated by Terranort + getting stomped by base Xehanort, not to mention nothing suggests that Sora was amped during either of the Armored Xehanort fights. Besides, even if Sora was caught off guard initially, the fact that he couldn't break out of the Dark Guardian's hold seems like hard evidence against him scaling to Armored Xehanort.

The real question is, if we accept that Sora defeating Armored Xehanort is PIS, would this invalidate 5-A as a whole? The premise for using the 5-A feat boils down to the fact that Armored Xehanort can use his telekinesis to attack Sora with his many keyblades, but if we don't scale Sora to Armored Xehanort in the first place, that kind of entails the latter's telekinetic attacks just not being able to output 5-A levels of energy, no? I'm not sure how this works, so if I'm off the mark, feel free to correct me.
 
I wasn't trying to say that so much as I was saying that Sora just shouldn't scale to Armored Xehanort on account of being defeated by Terranort + getting stomped by base Xehanort, not to mention nothing suggests that Sora was amped during either of the Armored Xehanort fights. Besides, even if Sora was caught off guard initially, the fact that he couldn't break out of the Dark Guardian's hold seems like hard evidence against him scaling to Armored Xehanort.

The real question is, if we accept that Sora defeating Armored Xehanort is PIS, would this invalidate 5-A as a whole? The premise for using the 5-A feat boils down to the fact that Armored Xehanort can use his telekinesis to attack Sora with his many keyblades, but if we don't scale Sora to Armored Xehanort in the first place, that kind of entails the latter's telekinetic attacks just not being able to output 5-A levels of energy, no? I'm not sure how this works, so if I'm off the mark, feel free to correct me.
If Sora (at whatever tier he is) defeated Armored Xehanort in a second round, it could just mean running the same simulated battle over a lot of rounds wil give different results.

I'm just going to mention that Kyogre is supported on the High 6-A rating by controlling all the oceans, if that wasn't mentioned already.
Kyogre does not become High 6-A "by controlling all the oceans". It becomes High 6-A for being the ocean counterpart of Groudon who was said to have raised the continents whose yield is properly calculated and accepted.)
 
Well, if the Kyogre part is right, then the oceans part should be removed out of not being an actual justification for the tier in that case.
Also, then I'm neutral on giving the lower end below High 6-A.
 
Wasn't there a calc with the titans in Olympus that was calced way higher than this but wasn't evaluated?
Hercules' feat happens much, much later than Ursula's feat chronologically, though. Even then, it might not be as high as originally calced, since Jason put forth an argument that the bit where the titans are claimed to have reached outer space in one second is based on a cinematic cut and shouldn't be used. We'll have to wait and see, though.
 
Unlike Ursula's feat the Hercules feat happens pretty early when Sora lost his powers once again and was considered as fodder by Maleficent and Pete.
 
...that's a good point, actually. But again, we should see how the calc unfolds, especially since I saw mentions here of another calc of Herc's feat that somehow put it at 7-B, and I'd like to know how this was reached.

EDIT: Actually, I just remembered: the Rock and Ice Titans are fought much later in Kingdom Hearts 1 than Ursula. Like, after Hollow Bastion, which is endgame-ish. The fact that they are relegated to early game threats in Kingdom Hearts 3 seems to suggest that early game KH3 Sora still is stronger than endgame KH1 Sora. Likewise, if KH3 Maleficent sees early Sora as a non-threat, yet KH1 Maleficent was defeated by a Sora who scales significantly above Ursula, then that suggests that she too has grown much stronger prior to the events of KH3.
 
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Maleficent did fight Lauriam (Aka, Marluxia's Somebody) in Union X, which happened on her part between KHI and KHII
Beyond that she did also fought countless Heartless in the World that Never Was alongside Pete in KHII, and then there's the Re:Coded stuff that deserves its own CRT, and her intimidating Mickey, Donald and Goofy until Lea recued Minnie from her and Pete in KH3D.
Anyways, yes, I can agree that early-game KHIII Sora is above early-game KHI Sora.
 
That just makes it even worse. Sora loses to Terranort and gets stomped by base Xehanort, yet he can fight and overpower Armored Xehanort, whose being includes those two plus eleven other people and should realistically be far more powerful than his individual components? At this point, I'm convinced that at least the first Armored Xehanort fight is an outlier for Sora, which isn't helped by the fact that it takes place mere moments after Sora getting wrecked by base Xehanort as well as before Sora being overpowered by Terranort.

I have nothing to say on the second Armored Xehanort fight for now, but I'll look into that later.
He managed to harm put up a good fight and harmed him and Terranort had to tap into the power of Darkness to submit him. As for base Xehanort stomping him, it was basically because he couldn't think clearly so he simply tried a basic move (hitting with the Keyblade) out of anger without really thinking. There's also the fact that Xehanort is far more experienced than him so he can deal with him and is really powerful even on his own. Plus, Sora had help from Donald and Goofy in the end and was amped by Kairi to defeat him.
 
...that's a good point, actually. But again, we should see how the calc unfolds, especially since I saw mentions here of another calc of Herc's feat that somehow put it at 7-B, and I'd like to know how this was reached.

EDIT: Actually, I just remembered: the Rock and Ice Titans are fought much later in Kingdom Hearts 1 than Ursula. Like, after Hollow Bastion, which is endgame-ish. The fact that they are relegated to early game threats in Kingdom Hearts 3 seems to suggest that early game KH3 Sora still is stronger than endgame KH1 Sora. Likewise, if KH3 Maleficent sees early Sora as a non-threat, yet KH1 Maleficent was defeated by a Sora who scales significantly above Ursula, then that suggests that she too has grown much stronger prior to the events of KH3.
Maleficent didn't see Sora as a non-threat. Pete mentionned he had lost a large part of his strength (so he is weaker at beginning of III than at the end of DDD) and Maleficent dismissed him because she was focusing on the Box so she didn't care about him at the time. I don't think we can say she would have been weaker though, she is among the most powerful characters in the setting, but she is also immensly arrogant so she tends to see others as fools and inferiors to her (wich is why I seriously doubt she was using her full power in KHI, at least in her witch form). Kind of like Gilgamesh in Fate (except Gilgamesh is leagues above her in every way of course). And because of that, I don't think we can say she has grown stronger. The only instance of her fighting after KHI were defeating Lauriam (and from what we know, she did it without much trouble) and throwing a fireball in DDD and we didn't see the fight against the Heartless army even though she was victorious. I just think she never used her full power, at least not counsciously, except perhaps for BBS against Aqua.
 
He managed to harm put up a good fight and harmed him and Terranort had to tap into the power of Darkness to submit him. As for base Xehanort stomping him, it was basically because he couldn't think clearly so he simply tried a basic move (hitting with the Keyblade) out of anger without really thinking. There's also the fact that Xehanort is far more experienced than him so he can deal with him and is really powerful even on his own. Plus, Sora had help from Donald and Goofy in the end and was amped by Kairi to defeat him.
I'm not too sure what you're saying here. Are you suggesting that Sora was amped in both of his fights against Armored Xehanort? Because... I don't know how to feel about that conclusion.

I will say, though, that your points regarding base Xehanort don't really work. Kairi had literally just died when Sora attacked, so logically he had to have been bloodlusted, and no amount of experience is going to allow Xehanort to fend off someone several tiers above him coming at him with all of their power, even if they aren't thinking straight.
Maleficent didn't see Sora as a non-threat. Pete mentionned he had lost a large part of his strength (so he is weaker at beginning of III than at the end of DDD) and Maleficent dismissed him because she was focusing on the Box so she didn't care about him at the time. I don't think we can say she would have been weaker though, she is among the most powerful characters in the setting, but she is also immensly arrogant so she tends to see others as fools and inferiors to her (wich is why I seriously doubt she was using her full power in KHI, at least in her witch form). Kind of like Gilgamesh in Fate (except Gilgamesh is leagues above her in every way of course). And because of that, I don't think we can say she has grown stronger. The only instance of her fighting after KHI were defeating Lauriam (and from what we know, she did it without much trouble) and throwing a fireball in DDD and we didn't see the fight against the Heartless army even though she was victorious. I just think she never used her full power, at least not counsciously, except perhaps for BBS against Aqua.
Fair enough.
 
Who said Sora was several tiers above base Xehanort? I don't think that's the case, to me they're comparable or equal in power. If Sora really was several layers above his base form, Xehanort would have been crushed immediately. That or Sora didn't use his full power.

Wasn't it stated he was amped? And even if not, he had help against Xehanort (Donald and Goofy), except for the last part of the fight but in my opinion, it's just gameplay mechanics. Even during his fight against the X-Blade, he was helped, wich is why he was able to overpower Xehanort's one-shotting beam (basically via the Power of Friendship).
 
Who said Sora was several tiers above base Xehanort? I don't think that's the case, to me they're comparable or equal in power. If Sora really was several layers above his base form, Xehanort would have been crushed immediately. That or Sora didn't use his full power.
The point I was trying to make is that Sora scaling to Armored Xehanort on his own makes no sense, but it looks like you agree with me on that part, so I guess it's a moot point.
Wasn't it stated he was amped? And even if not, he had help against Xehanort (Donald and Goofy), except for the last part of the fight but in my opinion, it's just gameplay mechanics. Even during his fight against the X-Blade, he was helped, wich is why he was able to overpower Xehanort's one-shotting beam (basically via the Power of Friendship).
I don't believe it's explicitly stated, but IIRC, Sora canonically derives power from his friendship with other characters, so I suppose it is safe to assume that Sora was amped during all of his fights against Xehanort. Of course, even with such a boost at play, Xehanort with the χ-blade no-sold his full power and then proceeded to one-shot him with his own full power.
 
I can't say I think it's weird he is able to fight Xehanort after he absorbed all his vessels. But again, he had help from other people and like you said, he derived power from the hearts of others. We can still say he can damage him of course.

The point I was trying to make is that Sora scaling to Armored Xehanort on his own makes no sense, but it looks like you agree with me on that part, so I guess it's a moot point.

I don't believe it's explicitly stated, but IIRC, Sora canonically derives power from his friendship with other characters, so I suppose it is safe to assume that Sora was amped during all of his fights against Xehanort. Of course, even with such a boost at play, Xehanort with the χ-blade no-sold his full power and then proceeded to one-shot him with his own full power.
That's what I understood. And tbf, that's the only way he could defeat Xehanort with the X-Blade.
 
Yeah, so, I don't know how the complete scaling chain should go, but here's what I have figured out so far:

Sora (Trinity Limit) > Sora (Limitcut Episode) > Real Organization XIII's Recreated Data > χ-blade Xehanort >> Sora (Friendship Amp) > Armored Xehanort >>>> Base Xehanort > Terra-Xehanort >= Lingering Will > Sora (Peak w/o Amps) > Yozora.
 
Anyway, we should probably figure out a tier for Hercules' feat, since High 6-A doesn't seem to work anymore. Assuming the calc for said feat posted earlier is valid, I'm inclined to go with the low end of High 6-C, but if the calc group doesn't like the assumption that the titans reached outer space in one second, then we'll probably have to settle for 6-C based on Ursula's feat.
 
Okay, so, the above calc yielded a result of 1.10809E+20 J, while Ursula's thing, based on a quick conversion of the lower end of her feat from TWh to J, gets a result of 7.596E+19 J. So yes, 6-C is most consistent for pretty much everyone that doesn't scale to the 5-A feat. It's also consistent from a narrative perspective, too, because this means that Sora, in-between KH1 and KH3, accumulated enough power for the titans to be demoted from end game to early game progression-wise, even if he lost a lot of it after DDD.
 
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