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Kingdom Hearts: KH and Zeus are a lie plus KH (World) upgrade

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It does fall as optional equipment per how the standards for those go as far I'm aware.
On second thought maybe not, an "extended period of time" most likely isn't just a few seconds
 
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Okay, gotta just comment here to confirm that I'll go ahead and edit 121 pages for the revisions by myself...
Oh well.
Oh, and what tier should the X-Blade end up then?
 
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Thank you very much for making a sincere effort to be unbiased and help out Bobsican.
 
Thanks.
Anyways, as I've been writing the justifications for the "possibly far higher", I've noticed that it would make more sense for it to be "possibly 5-A" for them (Aka, the respective Guardians of Light and True Organization XIII members) as...
Okay, so we accept Riku and Terra scaling
Mickey has been alongside Riku ever since KHI, training alongside him on his journey, even going alongside him to the Realm of Darkness to search for Aqua
So it's clear that in the possibility that Mickey is indeed "far higher", he would just be 5-A by scaling to Riku
But that's not all
We all know Mickey gets stomped by Aqua in the RoD, Riku and Sora also struggled fighting her, this would lead into Aqua reasonably going over the "possibly 5-A" as well, especially considering it's hinted in Re:Mind that she has gone alongside Terra and Ventus to search for Sora over the RoD multiple times across a year
I don't think Ventus should directly scale as he lacks explicit feats for that as far I recall around KHIII beyond fighting the (separated at the time) thirteen Xehanort vessels alongside the other Guardians of Light
Now, there's also Donald and Goofy, I don't think those two were brought up, but as they helped Sora to be able to overpower Xehanort, I think they should downscale at worst to remain consistent
Next, there's the Limit Cut episode being stated to show the cast without holding back, and it's mentioned that Xion is pretty strong, more so than the other True Organization XIII members, this would make it quite reasonable for her to scale, especially considering she was able to noticeably support Reflega in Re:Mind in the same way Mickey and Aqua did.

I know that it's quite uncertain if they should scale or not out of some cases being simply dubious and so on, but as stated in the Attack Potency page over the "possibly" and "likely", "higher" should be kept if such potential isn't specified, which is in this case as the end if they did scale is, well, 5-A, hence why I propose letting the Guardians of Light/True Organization XIII members scale under this way, with the only exceptions being Lea and Kairi as they clearly can't scale out of being shown to be way weaker than everyone else in KHIII and Melody of Memory, Roxas and Ventus are the only ones with no anti feats nor strong supporting feats (beyond the latter going alongside Aqua and Terra to the RoD quite often) as far I'm aware, so I'm open for thoughts on those two, for example, maybe they could just be "At least High 6-A, possibly 5-A" (And this is reasonable as Roxas still fought Saix, and Ventus fought Terranort, leaving Re:Mind stuff at a side), while the rest of the Guardians of Light and True Organization XIII members get "At least High 6-A, likely 5-A"

I've also noticed something...
Lingering Will is within the scaling chain high enought to scale and all, however, this in turn would lead into Terra-Xehanort scaling as well as they fought up to an standstill in KHBbS, and we know Lingering Will has just waited for a decade in the Keyblade Graveyard for Xehanort to come back, meaning that he didn't really turn stronger since then, this also is consistent with the Terra-Xehanort the cast fights in KHIII traveled in time just like most of the other True Organization XIII members, this would lead into the base key for Terra-Xehanort also scaling to the 5-A stuff to remain consistent, however, this also leads into KHBbS Aqua, Ventus and Terra scaling as well.
Sorry if I'm bringing this topic up again, but I would like this to be properly evaluated to avoid any issues
 
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Bobsican said:
Thanks.
Anyways, as I've been writing the justifications for the "possibly far higher", I've noticed that it would make more sense for it to be "possibly 5-A" for them (Aka, the respective Guardians of Light and True Organization XIII members) as...
Okay, so we accept Riku and Terra scaling
Mickey has been alongside Riku ever since KHI, training alongside him on his journey, even going alongside him to the Realm of Darkness to search for Aqua
So it's clear that in the possibility that Mickey is indeed "far higher", he would just be 5-A by scaling to Riku
But that's not all
We all know Mickey gets stomped by Aqua in the RoD, Riku and Sora also struggled fighting her, this would lead into Aqua reasonably going over the "possibly 5-A" as well, especially considering it's hinted in Re:Mind that she has gone alongside Terra and Ventus to search for Sora over the RoD multiple times across a year
I don't think Ventus should directly scale as he lacks explicit feats for that as far I recall around KHIII beyond fighting the (separated at the time) thirteen Xehanort vessels alongside the other Guardians of Light
Now, there's also Donald and Goofy, I don't think those two were brought up, but as they helped Sora to be able to overpower Xehanort, I think they should downscale at worst to remain consistent
Next, there's the Limit Cut episode being stated to show the cast without holding back, and it's mentioned that Xion is pretty strong, more so than the other True Organization XIII members, this would make it quite reasonable for her to scale, especially considering she was able to noticeably support Reflega in Re:Mind in the same way Mickey and Aqua did.

I know that it's quite uncertain if they should scale or not out of some cases being simply dubious and so on, but as stated in the Attack Potency page over the "possibly" and "likely", "higher" should be kept if such potential isn't specified, which is in this case as the end if they did scale is, well, 5-A, hence why I propose letting the Guardians of Light/True Organization XIII members scale under this way, with the only exceptions being Lea and Kairi as they clearly can't scale out of being shown to be way weaker than everyone else in KHIII and Melody of Memory, Roxas and Ventus are the only ones with no anti feats nor strong supporting feats (beyond the latter going alongside Aqua and Terra to the RoD quite often) as far I'm aware, so I'm open for thoughts on those two, for example, maybe they could just be "At least High 6-A, possibly 5-A" (And this is reasonable as Roxas still fought Saix, and Ventus fought Terranort, leaving Re:Mind stuff at a side), while the rest of the Guardians of Light and True Organization XIII members get "At least High 6-A, likely 5-A"

I've also noticed something...
Lingering Will is within the scaling chain high enought to scale and all, however, this in turn would lead into Terra-Xehanort scaling as well as they fought up to an standstill in KHBbS, and we know Lingering Will has just waited for a decade in the Keyblade Graveyard for Xehanort to come back, meaning that he didn't really turn stronger since then, this also is consistent with the Terra-Xehanort the cast fights in KHIII traveled in time just like most of the other True Organization XIII members, this would lead into the base key for Terra-Xehanort also scaling to the 5-A stuff to remain consistent, however, this also leads into KHBbS Aqua, Ventus and Terra scaling as well.
Sorry if I'm bringing this topic up again, but I would like this to be properly evaluated to avoid any issues
Click to expand...
This is unnecessarily long. I've already explained the entire issue with why everyone that's not amped Mickey, Kairi, or Sora being possibly 5-A and this seems to just be an overly verbose repeat of the previous argument I established. None of these arguments prove they get possibly 5-A since they didn't push back a fused Xehanort but parts of him, this is the entire reason they're getting possibly far higher for.
 
GiverOfThePeace said:
This is unnecessarily long. I've already explained the entire issue with why everyone that's not amped Mickey, Kairi, or Sora being possibly 5-A and this seems to just be an overly verbose repeat of the previous argument I established. None of these arguments prove they get possibly 5-A since they didn't push back a fused Xehanort but parts of him, this is the entire reason they're getting possibly far higher for.
Click to expand...
Parts of him? Would they downscale to up to a 1/13 or so then? @Theglassman12 asked over this and no reply was given from what I've seen.

As for the latter, well, as I was doing the editing, I've noticed that Lingering Will fought Terranort, and he had, well, Terra's body, meaning that it already scales to way back to the events in KHBbS, as we all know that Lingering Will really didn't became stronger between the events of KHBbS to KHIII, and the same applies to Terranort as he traveled in time.
While we are on that, the 5-A rating could also scale back to KHI with Ansem and Xemnas being around out of also doing time travel.
 
Bobsican said:
Parts of him? Would they downscale to up to a 1/13 or so then? @Theglassman12 asked over this and no reply was given from what I've seen.

As for the latter, well, as I was doing the editing, I've noticed that Lingering Will fought Terranort, and he had, well, Terra's body, meaning that it already scales to way back to the events in KHBbS, as we all know that Lingering Will really didn't became stronger between the events of KHBbS to KHIII, and the same applies to Terranort as he traveled in time.
While we are on that, the 5-A rating could also scale back to KHI with Ansem and Xemnas being around out of also doing time travel.
Click to expand...
I gave him a reply, so idk where you're getting "no reply was given" from.

Bob no, you do not make edits not agreed upon across an entire thread just because you personally believe something should be a tier. No one gets 5-A except for the people agreed upon.
 
I haven't played Kingdom Hearts 3 at all (or any game released after 358/2 Days, really), but I'm currently inclined to agree with Giver regarding the scaling. Although, is there any reason that 5-A is only a likely/possibly as opposed to a solid rating? Given that the feat is pretty explicit and the calc was accepted, I see no reason for anyone who scales to Armored Xehanort not to just be straight-up 5-A. I also recall the reasoning behind "Possibly 3-A" before these downgrades being that we weren't sure if it was okay to completely scale these people to the 3-A feat, while Xehanort with the χ-blade was solidly 3-A since he was the one who had the feat in the first place.
 
GiverOfThePeace said:
That was never agreed on, you even acknowledge right after the last comment the changes accepted.
Click to expand...
Not really, what I acknoledged on that post was just me stating when I would start editing, I never said I fully understood the way the changes would be applied, not that it changes much either way.
As for the linked posts...
1: The cast greatly scales above her as the plot goes, respectively, otherwise I guess just "High 6-A" could work for those without any remote upscaling (Aka, those without far higher/5-A)
2: Can you explain how it's an exponential amp, rather than a linear one? From what I'm aware we default to the latter, which would let those in "far higher" just scale to 5-A
As for Terra, I checked, yeah, that slipped on my part, my copy paste accidentally got into his AP section (And only that section), which I already fixed.
 
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KingPin0422 said:
I haven't played Kingdom Hearts 3 at all (or any game released after 358/2 Days, really), but I'm currently inclined to agree with Giver regarding the scaling. Although, is there any reason that 5-A is only a likely/possibly as opposed to a solid rating? Given that the feat is pretty explicit and the calc was accepted, I see no reason for anyone who scales to Armored Xehanort not to just be straight-up 5-A. I also recall the reasoning behind "Possibly 3-A" before these downgrades being that we weren't sure if it was okay to completely scale these people to the 3-A feat, while Xehanort with the χ-blade was solidly 3-A since he was the one who had the feat in the first place.
Click to expand...
Because the feat is a telekinesis feat which has a similar problem to Zeus, the reason we give it a possibly is cause Xehanort has used telekinetic attack himself before but we don't directly know it's the same scale.

Xehanort was solidly 3-A cause it was assumed he directly scales to True KH with the X-blade, which in this thread got denied because the only proof to that was that it was called a counter-part to true KH and nothing else, so it doesn't scale.
 
Bobsican said:
Not really, what I acknoledged on that post was just me stating when I would start editing, I never said I fully understood the way the changes would be applied, not that it changes much either way.
As for the linked posts...
1: The cast greatly scales above her as the plot goes, respectively, otherwise I guess just "High 6-A" could work for those without any remote upscaling (Aka, those without far higher/5-A)
2: Can you explain how it's an exponential amp, rather than a linear one? From what I'm aware we default to the latter, which would let those in "far higher" just scale to 5-A
As for Terra, I checked, yeah, that slipped on my part, my copy paste accidentally got into his AP section (And only that section), which I already fixed.
Click to expand...
I directly replied to you and you said "Ok, I'll apply the changes".

The cast greatly scaling above Kairi is irrelevant since that isn't the reason for them not being possibly 5-A, Kairi's feat against Xehanort was the reason she doesn't get possibly 5-A.

Because in KH merged feats are exponential rather then linear, for example, the trinity amp that Sora and co. do and trinity limit attack one-shotting all enemies when that wouldn't be logical with a linear amp.
 
GiverOfThePeace said:
Because the feat is a telekinesis feat which has a similar problem to Zeus, the reason we give it a possibly is cause Xehanort has used telekinetic attack himself before but we don't directly know it's the same scale.

Xehanort was solidly 3-A cause it was assumed he directly scales to True KH with the X-blade, which in this thread got denied because the only proof to that was that it was called a counter-part to true KH and nothing else, so it doesn't scale.
Click to expand...
Okay then. I actually have another question: how do we know that this feat is viable? I watched the scene where Xehanort summons the moon, and it's literally shown coming out of a Keyhole glowing. That seems to suggest that he created it himself. More importantly, the moon doesn't seem to still be there after the fight. It's on the other side of the arena to Kingdom Hearts in the fight itself, but in the cutscene that follows, it's gone. You might dismiss this as an oversight on the developers' part, but I think it should be noted.

In the first place, I'm fairly sure that telekinesis shouldn't be used for scaling attack potency - I believe this would just be a special instance of lifting strength, as per the page itself: "Telekinesis or other similar abilities must be specifically referred to as separate from physical strength, when used in a lifting feat." You yourself admit that we lack explicit evidence of Xehanort's telekinetic attacks being comparable to what he can move with telekinesis, so now I'm becoming very skeptical of anyone scaling to 5-A.
 
KingPin0422 said:
Okay then. I actually have another question: how do we know that this feat is viable? I watched the scene where Xehanort summons the moon, and it's literally shown coming out of a Keyhole glowing. That seems to suggest that he created it himself. More importantly, the moon doesn't seem to still be there after the fight. It's on the other side of the arena to Kingdom Hearts in the fight itself, but in the cutscene that follows, it's gone. You might dismiss this as an oversight on the developers' part, but I think it should be noted.

In the first place, I'm fairly sure that telekinesis shouldn't be used for scaling attack potency - I believe this would just be a special instance of lifting strength, as per the page itself: "Telekinesis or other similar abilities must be specifically referred to as separate from physical strength, when used in a lifting feat." You yourself admit that we lack explicit evidence of Xehanort's telekinetic attacks being comparable to what he can move with telekinesis, so now I'm becoming very skeptical of anyone scaling to 5-A.
Click to expand...
That's moreso why I'm for possibly tbh, I don't even really agree with the feat myself but majority of the experts do.
 
GiverOfThePeace said:
I directly replied to you and you said "Ok, I'll apply the changes".

The cast greatly scaling above Kairi is irrelevant since that isn't the reason for them not being possibly 5-A, Kairi's feat against Xehanort was the reason she doesn't get possibly 5-A.

Because in KH merged feats are exponential rather then linear, for example, the trinity amp that Sora and co. do and trinity limit attack one-shotting all enemies when that wouldn't be logical with a linear amp.
Click to expand...
Oh well, as said before I'm sorry and it doens't change much either way.

Huh? I was talking about Ursula as the basis, not Kairi

There's verses where a x2 amp is taken as being able to one shoot comparable opponents, more explicit proof would be needed to take such amps as exponential over linear.

Also, @Antvasima , could you please contact some members knowledgeable into Nonexistent Physiology here to evaluate some stuff? It's another KH CRT on the way related to some abilities for the cast.
 
Bobsican said:
Oh well, as said before I'm sorry and it doens't change much either way.

Huh? I was talking about Ursula as the basis, not Kairi

There's verses where a x2 amp is taken as being able to one shoot comparable opponents, more explicit proof would be needed to take such amps as exponential over linear.

Also, @Antvasima , could you please contact some members knowledgeable into Nonexistent Physiology here to evaluate some stuff? It's another KH CRT on the way related to some abilities for the cast.
Click to expand...
Bob you can't brush it aside when you were trying to make the defense that you didn't know.

The cast "greatly scaling above" Trident Ursula wouldn't suddenly prove 5-A either, so it's still irrelevant.

I'd like to see this verse for one and for two Sora has objects that give x2 amps that don't one-shot opponents, only deal more damage, hell, the entire Lexeaus fight shows this. So no, exponential amp is most definitely more useable here.
 
KingPin0422 said:
Okay then. I actually have another question: how do we know that this feat is viable? I watched the scene where Xehanort summons the moon, and it's literally shown coming out of a Keyhole glowing. That seems to suggest that he created it himself. More importantly, the moon doesn't seem to still be there after the fight. It's on the other side of the arena to Kingdom Hearts in the fight itself, but in the cutscene that follows, it's gone. You might dismiss this as an oversight on the developers' part, but I think it should be noted.

In the first place, I'm fairly sure that telekinesis shouldn't be used for scaling attack potency - I believe this would just be a special instance of lifting strength, as per the page itself: "Telekinesis or other similar abilities must be specifically referred to as separate from physical strength, when used in a lifting feat." You yourself admit that we lack explicit evidence of Xehanort's telekinetic attacks being comparable to what he can move with telekinesis, so now I'm becoming very skeptical of anyone scaling to 5-A.
Click to expand...
I think this is a misread of that page. TK here isnt being argued as lifting strength in the first place, just as ap.

The moon didnt come out of the keyhole, if you go frame by frame.
 
GiverOfThePeace said:
Bob you can't brush it aside when you were trying to make the defense that you didn't know.

The cast "greatly scaling above" Trident Ursula wouldn't suddenly prove 5-A either, so it's still irrelevant.

I'd like to see this verse for one and for two Sora has objects that give x2 amps that don't one-shot opponents, only deal more damage, hell, the entire Lexeaus fight shows this. So no, exponential amp is most definitely more useable here.
Click to expand...
Because I didn't remember well if I did add it or not, and in any case I wanted to defend my point, let's just move on as this part goes nowhere.

It is relevant to have the "At least" next to the High 6-A rating for the cast

Basic Multipliers standards, just look at the invalid examples like Dragon Ball, if you want a lead.
 
Bobsican said:
Because I didn't remember well if I did add it or not, and in any case I wanted to defend my point, let's just move on as this part goes nowhere.

It is relevant to have the "At least" next to the High 6-A rating for the cast

Basic Multipliers standards, just look at the invalid examples like Dragon Ball, if you want a lead.
Click to expand...
We're talking about the 5-A part, not the High 6-A part.

Dragon Ball never has a x2 thing be able to one-shot people, it's that if you double in PL you can start easily beating your opponent. Also this comment does not address my Lexeaus example.
 
Well, then I'm neutral on it just being "High 6-A" for everyone with no "At least"

I mean, Lexaeus can amp to nearly 1000 times above Sora's "power level" and he can still harm him without copying his power level, so I don't think it's a good example.
 
Bobsican said:
Well, then I'm neutral on it just being "High 6-A" for everyone with no "At least"

I mean, Lexaeus can amp to nearly 1000 times above Sora's "power level" and he can still harm him without copying his power level, so I don't think it's a good example.
Click to expand...
? Did you read my reply? Nothing was in regards to the at least:
"We're talking about the 5-A part, not the High 6-A part."

You just said in your own comment why the Xehanorts can't be a linear amp.
 
Well, then what should be done over it in that case?
Can you explain what's a "linear" amp then? I'm lost in that case, from what I'm looking it's not a multiplier really usable to determine a large gap when it's not treated as such, respectively.
 
I don't care what's done with the High 6-A portion regarding at least or regular, the only part I'm commenting on is that specifically the 5-A ratings for characters agreed upon and the ones that were not at all.

A linear amp is an amplification that can be linearly measured under statistics, an exponential amp is an unqutanfiable one that can't simple use the "just divide the amp by X bro" thought process. Since characters like Lexaeaus have directly shown high level linear amps do virtually nothing in verse and 13 fused together Xehanort is an unquntifiable amp that is above the entire cast sans for Sora, Kairi, and an amped Mickey, we literally cannot argue they downscale because of that. possibly far higher is the safer and more logical option.
 
Well, for Lexaeus it may be a game mechanic, we don't really hear much about it on cutscenes, and...
https://www.khinsider.com/forums/index.php?threads/characters-report-vol-2-translations.197305/
Xaldin
He has the image of a medieval Chinese military commander. He is excellent at strategizing, and a powerful soldier. I'm sure the players all know that he is a contender for the first or second strongest in the Organisation. I'm satisfied that I was able to depict that strength in his personality, too. I personally really like this character.
--Nomura
Lexaeus
He's a character with strength to rival Xaldin. While Xaldin has power plus technique, I'd say to Lexaeus is more of a samurai, or that he has bushido-style strength. If you listen to his very last line in Re:COM, I think you'll be able to see his spirit. I wanted to do more with this character.
--Nomura
 
Bobsican said:
Well, for Lexaeus it may be a game mechanic, we don't really hear much about it on cutscenes, and...
https://www.khinsider.com/forums/index.php?threads/characters-report-vol-2-translations.197305/
Xaldin
He has the image of a medieval Chinese military commander. He is excellent at strategizing, and a powerful soldier. I'm sure the players all know that he is a contender for the first or second strongest in the Organisation. I'm satisfied that I was able to depict that strength in his personality, too. I personally really like this character.
--Nomura
Lexaeus
He's a character with strength to rival Xaldin. While Xaldin has power plus technique, I'd say to Lexaeus is more of a samurai, or that he has bushido-style strength. If you listen to his very last line in Re:COM, I think you'll be able to see his spirit. I wanted to do more with this character.
--Nomura
Click to expand...
So if you're going to argue his stat amp is a game mechanic, you must by extension argue that any ability seen by the organization in gameplay is a game mechanic.

Those interviews prove nothing, it just associates each person's strength.
 
I have applied some editings to the KH profiles with the "likely 5-A" feat but I'm ok with replacing "likely" with "possibly". Also, I don't see why Telekinesis can't be used for AP or tiers. Telekinesis isn't simply a lifting power, it has been shown countless times in countless settings that it can be used to overpower, wound or kill people (for example, Darth Vader in Star Wars who is infamous for choking people to death with Telekinesis, witches in Vampire Diaries who can overpower vampires and werewolves and wound them in various ways, etc). So I'm down for using this ability to count feats.

However, I'm not sure Xehanort really used Telekinesis on the moon. The moon wasn't there before so it's possible he actually created it.
 
So what are the conclusions here so far?
 
ArkhamDC06 said:
I have applied some editings to the KH profiles with the "likely 5-A" feat but I'm ok with replacing "likely" with "possibly". Also, I don't see why Telekinesis can't be used for AP or tiers. Telekinesis isn't simply a lifting power, it has been shown countless times in countless settings that it can be used to overpower, wound or kill people (for example, Darth Vader in Star Wars who is infamous for choking people to death with Telekinesis, witches in Vampire Diaries who can overpower vampires and werewolves and wound them in various ways, etc). So I'm down for using this ability to count feats.

However, I'm not sure Xehanort really used Telekinesis on the moon. The moon wasn't there before so it's possible he actually created it.
Click to expand...
And wouldn't make any sense in the context of the scene for him creating since if that's the case why would he need keyholes to bring meteorites into the area
 
GiverOfThePeace said:
So if you're going to argue his stat amp is a game mechanic, you must by extension argue that any ability seen by the organization in gameplay is a game mechanic.

Those interviews prove nothing, it just associates each person's strength.
Click to expand...
I'm not arguing that the amp is a game mechanic, what I'm arguing is that how it's portrayed in game is a game mechanic.
 
Cyberblader90 said:
And wouldn't make any sense in the context of the scene for him creating since if that's the case why would he need keyholes to bring meteorites into the area
Click to expand...
Like I said, I'm not sure about it. The moon wasn't there before so he could have either created it or simply opened a portal to teleport it to the battlefield. But again, it's also possible he simply a portal and moved it, though the scene isn't really clear since the moon appeared behind the big portal and not from it. Hence why I'm ok with a "possibly 5-A" (aside from the fact that Telekinesis can be used to give an AP and justify a tier).
 
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