-
This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.
For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here. -
We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.
Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.
Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page. -
Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.
Some Ideas For Potential Avatar Revisions
- Thread starter PlozAlcachaz
- Start date
- Status
- 5,230
- 1,471
this is my yue revision but plz talk about it here after reading, forgot to post it before https://vsbattles.com/threads/yue-tier-and-possible-scaling.108028/#post-3350722
- 1,011
- 652
- Thread starter
- #43
Yeah, we touched on that earlier.
Raava was going to get two keys from this. A depowered key where she is just 7-B, and she would get a Full Power one where she is either At least High 6-A or 5-C. Dark Avatar Unalaq covering the planet in darkness can act as a supporting feat for either rating since it probably should be High 6-A in of itself. The only ones who'd be scaling that high would be Raava (Full Power), Vaatu, Korra (Avatar State; Post-Harmonic Convergence), and Dark Avatar Unalaq as the other thread said.
There aren't any real problems with the scaling either. Literally, all of her fights afterward have her being weakened by the poison used by the Red Lotus and her PTSD was holding her back significantly. Her feat against Colossus was practically effortless too, so I'm good with the scaling. Kuvira herself even said the Avatar State was far beyond anything she could ever hope to make.
Also, if we don't treat the Moon Spirit as having control over the moon itself (which I massively disagree with considering what happened to the moon after Zhao killed Tui), then they'd be likely High 6-A regardless for comparability to the Ocean Spirit most likely.
Korra should get two keys as well with the Avatar States. Avatar State (Pre-Harmonic Convergence) would be 7-B with all of the past abilities of Avatars. Avatar State (Post-Harmonic Convergence) would be At least High 6-A/5-C and would lose those past abilities like the Magma Manipulation because her connection to those past lives was severed.
Raava was going to get two keys from this. A depowered key where she is just 7-B, and she would get a Full Power one where she is either At least High 6-A or 5-C. Dark Avatar Unalaq covering the planet in darkness can act as a supporting feat for either rating since it probably should be High 6-A in of itself. The only ones who'd be scaling that high would be Raava (Full Power), Vaatu, Korra (Avatar State; Post-Harmonic Convergence), and Dark Avatar Unalaq as the other thread said.
There aren't any real problems with the scaling either. Literally, all of her fights afterward have her being weakened by the poison used by the Red Lotus and her PTSD was holding her back significantly. Her feat against Colossus was practically effortless too, so I'm good with the scaling. Kuvira herself even said the Avatar State was far beyond anything she could ever hope to make.
Also, if we don't treat the Moon Spirit as having control over the moon itself (which I massively disagree with considering what happened to the moon after Zhao killed Tui), then they'd be likely High 6-A regardless for comparability to the Ocean Spirit most likely.
Korra should get two keys as well with the Avatar States. Avatar State (Pre-Harmonic Convergence) would be 7-B with all of the past abilities of Avatars. Avatar State (Post-Harmonic Convergence) would be At least High 6-A/5-C and would lose those past abilities like the Magma Manipulation because her connection to those past lives was severed.
- 16,959
- 4,855
Well the thing about 5-C is that the moon spirit would only be 5-C for literally being the moon itself. It’s not as if it can fight as the moon or can use AP on that level. If we wanted to scale others to that, they’d have to have feats of effecting the moon since it’s tier is based on size.
High 6-A, to me, seems much more concrete to scale from since it’s an actual AP feat, it’s lower tier so it’s easier to get accepted, and it’s not that much lower then 5-C tier wise.
Also, as for Korra losing her past lives abilities, I’m not sure. Shouldn’t an Avatar still have their past lives stuff once they use the Avatar State? As in, Korra knows all her past lives stuff permanently? Or does the Avatar only keep their knowledge temporarily when in the AS?
High 6-A, to me, seems much more concrete to scale from since it’s an actual AP feat, it’s lower tier so it’s easier to get accepted, and it’s not that much lower then 5-C tier wise.
Also, as for Korra losing her past lives abilities, I’m not sure. Shouldn’t an Avatar still have their past lives stuff once they use the Avatar State? As in, Korra knows all her past lives stuff permanently? Or does the Avatar only keep their knowledge temporarily when in the AS?
- 3,904
- 684
They only keep knowledge temporarily, for example, Aang in the avatar state could earth bend way before they meet Toph:
Obviously he can't earthbend again until his training with Toph and has great difficulty learning it once Toph trains him
Obviously he can't earthbend again until his training with Toph and has great difficulty learning it once Toph trains him
- 1,011
- 652
- Thread starter
- #46
I'm pretty sure it would just be temporary. The whole point of the Avatar State is that it gives you the knowledge and skills of the Avatar at that moment. The novelization of Sozin's Comet seems to support this as it describes the Avatar State as a combination of all of Aang's past lives acting with him in the fight. If her link to those lives was severed Post-Harmonic Convergence, she should not retain those abilities.
- 16,959
- 4,855
Hmm. Didn’t Korra obtain energy bending via the Avatar State?
I know Aang restored her bending with it, but Korra was able to keep the ability and use it when she goes in the Avatar State. And she still has it post-Harmonic Convergence.
I know Aang restored her bending with it, but Korra was able to keep the ability and use it when she goes in the Avatar State. And she still has it post-Harmonic Convergence.
- 1,011
- 652
- Thread starter
- #48
Aang actively gave her the ability. It's pretty much what the Lion Turtle did in that Aang gave Korra the ability to do it too. The same cannot be said about the other abilities.
- 1,011
- 652
- Thread starter
- #49
It wouldn't for really being the moon, it would be for having control over it. In the same way that La doesn't have to be the oceans themselves to control it, Tui doesn't have to be the moon itself to have influence over it. So yes, there is actual credence for them to scale to 5-C.
- 16,959
- 4,855
Okay then. I’m good with the removal.
- 5,230
- 1,471
but yue is different is she is the moon but what i REALLY wanna do is talk about the novels... cant we look at the avatar verse maps for mountains/islands to get a feat for kulaks island sinking and kyoshis mountain? cuz its no suprised kulak can do that, roku split an island , and kyoshi pushed one and split it also so it seems consistent
- 1,011
- 652
- Thread starter
- #52
Kyoshi's mountain? I know she has an island split feat but does she have another Tier 7 feat? Also, I'm not sure how we would go about Kuruk's feat. He sank a random island over an unknown timeframe, and we don't really have any frame of reference for how big the island might be. The only info on it is that Yangchen practiced there at one point IIRC.
- 16,959
- 4,855
The scale in feats in comparison between the 2 are different cases.
We never see Tui/Yue have actual dominion over the moon in the way your thinking it to be. The only way their 5-C would be scaled to others is if they can actually move the moon at all or use attacks on that level. Neither of which we never see.
For a tier as big as 5-C, I just don’t think we have enough concrete evidence for that compared to La’s High 6-A.
- 762
- 438
Are you talking about this feat -
- 1,011
- 652
- Thread starter
- #55
They really aren't all that different. Tui never gets to show full dominion over it because they don't get the chance to, nor does Yue. Tui's temporary death actually causes the moon to no longer be up in the sky entirely. You literally would not need to show such a thing if your existence is fundamentally supporting the moon. They really aren't different cases at all. Tui and La BOTH have control over their respective ties. The fact you're willing to support La's ocean feat but not Tui's moon feat is very odd.
- 1,011
- 652
- Thread starter
- #58
Korra has quite a few feats that could be calced. Ghazan bringing down part of the Ba Sing Se wall is also another one that should be done.
- 16,959
- 4,855
To be fair, im pretty sure Tui's death didnt literally remove the moon out of place. Otherwise, a lot of chaotic complications over the planet would've happened like it would IRL without the moon. The moon seems to have only darkned out completely (and this is consistent with the fact that when Tui was dying without having water, the moon became red rather than starting to vanish).
La's ocean feat is more acceptable because we know La is a waterbender that can control absurd amounts of water, so it having dominion over what its the incarnation of is concrete thinking. Having dominion over an entire celestial object and moving it? Thats a different ballpark. And I dont think its enough concrete evidence for shoot for tier 5, even if it's potentially fine.
- 1,011
- 652
- Thread starter
- #62
Avatar's intended audience is for younger kids on Nickelodeon (even with all the mature themes). I'm pretty sure they would not greenlight the number of chaotic effects it would have in an immediate situation for the show. Also, to be fair, Aang and Iroh outright try to explain to Zhao that removing the moon would do more than just depower the Waterbenders. This also doubles for evidence that it would actually rid the moon.
Zhao: I was a young Lieutenant serving under General Shu in the Earth Kingdom... I discovered a hidden library, underground in fact. I tore through scroll after scroll. One of them contained a detailed illustration and the words "moon" and "ocean." I knew then that these spirits could be found - and killed. And that it was my destiny to do so.
Later...
Zhao: It's my destiny to destroy the moon and the Water Tribe.
Aang: Destroying the moon won't hurt just the Water Tribe. It will hurt everyone, including you. Without the moon, everything would fall out of balance.
The dialogue seems to suggest that they are actually making the moon vanish if they kill Tui. Aang doesn't correct Zhao about the moon being destroyed at all. He starts listing off the consequences of the actions. Also, the moon turning red was to show the Moon Spirit's life was in jeopardy. The focus at the moment was not it dying from being out of the oasis.
Tui/Yue would have those feats too. The Water Tribes talk about how the moon is a Waterbender. In our real world, that would be reflected in how it influences the tides across the entire PLANET. It really isn't all that different. It's literally just one tier up. I think either you're thinking the moon feat is either more impressive than it is, or you are taking manipulating the oceans lightly in comparison. Remember that over 7/10 of the entire planet's surface is water. That's over twice the amount of land area between all seven continents. That makes La's feat incredibly impressive in perspective. It's not really a stretch at all to say Vaatu and Raava could scale to 5-C.
- 1,011
- 652
- Thread starter
- #63
Bump.
- 1,011
- 652
- Thread starter
- #65
No but it's part of the current propositions atm.
- 1,011
- 652
- Thread starter
- #67
I think it was speed.
- 1,011
- 652
- Thread starter
- #68
Bump.
- 3,109
- 870
I have moved this thread here, that can be added to this threads revisions
From the thread above, the following has been accepted:
Non-physical Interaction (Can interact with spirits)
Possession (past avatars can take over the current avatars body)
Resistance to Willpower Manipulation and Fear Manipulation
Heat Manipulation for the Avatars and Airbenders like Tenzin (Air benders can manipulate their body tempretures)
Possible Sound Manipulation: Air manipulation amplifies sound waves, but if this is sound manipulatin or not is up to the staff I guess.
Things to talk about
Healing. I was told it is accepted if I can get the scan, but right now I'm too lazy to go through an entire novel again. Basically in a recent Kyoshi Novel, Kyoshi mastered healing and could use it in the AS. So in the AS Avatars should have healing.
In the Avatar guide, it was stated the reason Aang resisted bloodbending was because of the AS. Bloodbending is literally another form of Waterbending, so it should also count as resistance to water manipulation. I also believe it should scale to resistance to the other elements, as the resistance to Blood manipulation came from the AS, but I guess it's up to debate
Soul and power null resistance: Wokistan brought this up so he should probably comment here
I should also add, there is a Large Mountain level feat for Yangchen in the AS thats been calced, I can post it here if needed
From the thread above, the following has been accepted:
Non-physical Interaction (Can interact with spirits)
Possession (past avatars can take over the current avatars body)
Resistance to Willpower Manipulation and Fear Manipulation
Heat Manipulation for the Avatars and Airbenders like Tenzin (Air benders can manipulate their body tempretures)
Possible Sound Manipulation: Air manipulation amplifies sound waves, but if this is sound manipulatin or not is up to the staff I guess.
Things to talk about
Healing. I was told it is accepted if I can get the scan, but right now I'm too lazy to go through an entire novel again. Basically in a recent Kyoshi Novel, Kyoshi mastered healing and could use it in the AS. So in the AS Avatars should have healing.
In the Avatar guide, it was stated the reason Aang resisted bloodbending was because of the AS. Bloodbending is literally another form of Waterbending, so it should also count as resistance to water manipulation. I also believe it should scale to resistance to the other elements, as the resistance to Blood manipulation came from the AS, but I guess it's up to debate
Soul and power null resistance: Wokistan brought this up so he should probably comment here
I should also add, there is a Large Mountain level feat for Yangchen in the AS thats been calced, I can post it here if needed
- 1,011
- 652
- Thread starter
- #70
As far as I can tell, the Sound Manipulation is fine as is. There hasn't been anyone who opposed it in this thread. But yes, all of this was generally accepted.
Healing seems fine to add. However, it really would only matter for Roku's page. Aang and Korra both have Healing already without the Avatar State on their pages. Unless her healing is more potent in the Avatar State than normal, then it might not matter to really add it for Aang and Korra.
It'd be nice to know which guide this is in. I've heard the mention before, but I don't think I've personally seen the scan. Also, it'd probably be fine to give him resistance to the elements. The likely answer will probably be something like "Possibly/Likely Resistance".
I'm pretty uncertain about the Soul Manipulation and Power Nullification resistance. The Lion Turtle's dialogue was more on the lines that if Aang didn't properly do Energybending, his own soul would be corrupted and destroyed by it. The archived Energybending entry from Nickelodeon's now defunct site seems to suggest this too.
It'd be nice to see that Yangchen calculation. We should get that evaluated considering everything higher than 7-B has been a bust thus far.
Something we should note as well is some sort of Cosmic Energy Manipulation that the Avatar State should have too. It's noted that the last chakra revolves around opening yourself to it, and the Kyoshi Novels describe it as summoning this energy to assist the Avatar in unimaginable levels of bending.
- 16,959
- 4,855
I don’t remember Aang having known the healing aspect of waterbending, rather that being Kataras thing.
Korra is a different story since she learned healing from Katara as part of her waterbending training.
Korra is a different story since she learned healing from Katara as part of her waterbending training.
- 1,011
- 652
- Thread starter
- #72
We might have to remove it then because I don't remember Aang using it, nor does the Avatar Wiki note him as a notable user of it. I assumed I was just forgetting something the page had.
- 16,959
- 4,855
Agreed. I have no recollection of Aang ever learning it. Not to mention Katara was never shown to teach Aang how to in Book 2.
Being honest, until now I thought Korra was the only Avatar with healing since she was actually confirmed to be taught it.
Being honest, until now I thought Korra was the only Avatar with healing since she was actually confirmed to be taught it.
- 1,011
- 652
- Thread starter
- #74
That's something we should remove then.
Inb4 Kyoshi learned Energybending in a later part of her life, but she just didn't want to tell Aang because she thought death for Ozai was better.
- 16,959
- 4,855
Also if it wasn’t already removed/suggested yet, we also need to remove metal manipulation from Aang.
Like, it was outright said Korra was the first metal bending Avatar, so there shouldn’t be any reason why Aang has it.
Like, it was outright said Korra was the first metal bending Avatar, so there shouldn’t be any reason why Aang has it.
- 11,134
- 14,116
You don't get light manipulation just because you can make your eyes glow.
- 3,109
- 870
- 1,011
- 652
- Thread starter
- #78
Can you name any actual reason for that or not?
I've found a profile with a pretty simple google search that has it for the exact same reason. I know I've seen that reason on other profiles too, so I'd like an actual explanation on why there are accepted profiles that say otherwise.
It's worth noting that he'd get it either way. He makes a beacon of light come from himself when Energybending Ozai as well. Something you should consider for your explanation is the fact that humans cannot just spontaneously decide to make their bodies glow with light either, so I'd like to see your justification on it not being an ability.
Thank you for ignoring the other part too btw, defo isn't like there was another reason for it.
Last edited:
- 1,011
- 652
- Thread starter
- #79
Figures the underrated Bending feat of the sequence was the one that might actually be the most impressive. Anyway, this should be formatted into a blog and submitted into the Calculation Evaluations Thread.
- 11,134
- 14,116
Because that is dumb? Unless you can use the light you create in any productive way, it isn't worth mentioning. Saying that it is light manipulation just because someone can make their eyes glow is misleading and stupid. At best, you can mention on his profile something like "Can make his eyes glow", but again, mentioning something as insignificant and useless thing as that will just make the profile look dumb.
If that is the sole reason for such additions, they should be removed. Two wrongs don't make a right. Anri Sonohara can also make her eyes glow red. She does not get "light manipulation" lol.
That will only apply when he is energy bending. And even then, that was a one time thing for visual and dramatic purposes. We later see Aang do the same to Yakone and Korra do the same to Lin. Nothing of that sort happens ever again, only their eyes and pressure points glow.
- Status
Similar threads
