I know now, without a doubt, Kingdom Hearts isn't... High 1-A!

[Livinmeme]

between 2 metaphysical realms that shape and define the physical worlds in every conceivable way.

You could just had said "platonic cave", and it would have gotten the point better

 

[Vietthai96]

I know he trying to refering to platonic, but again from what i see, it is just he view the contexts in that way

 

[Theglassman12]

@Livinaa Except that nothing in that blog remotely has anything that actually qualifies for R>F stuff, especially when all it is is just constantly 11-C downscaling and somehow extrapolating it into 1-A to High 1-A.

@ThatBoiRick a lot of this stuff sounds like stuff that would pass for 1-A in CSAP wiki, not the VSBW. Also again, Megaten has actual dimensionality being transcended at a conceptual level, KH doesn't. Also worlds that comprises of concepts that define reality does not even reach 1-A, what verse unironically does that by itself without any elaboration of dimensionality being surpassed? I can name several verses on the top of my head that has concepts defining reality but that doesn't translate to 1-A by default.

@Qawsedf234 @Planck69 @Agnaa @Duedate8898 your inputs here would be appreciated.

 

[Planck69]

Not at all seeing how this is 1-A, let alone High 1-A. It seems to be the most generous and loose interpretation possible, shaded behind "context" that's just an exaggerated comparison. Not even accounting for the translation discrepancy brought up by Glass. Disagree with the upgrade, Ultima's and Theglassman12's reasonings make more sense to me.

 

[Bobsican]

Not at all seeing how this is 1-A, let alone High 1-A. It seems to be the most generous and loose interpretation possible, shaded behind "context" that's just an exaggerated comparison. Not even accounting for the translation discrepancy brought up by Glass. Disagree with the upgrade, Ultima's and Theglassman12's reasonings make more sense to me.

The translation discrepancy got already debunked and Glass never addressed that bit further or anything.

 

[Planck69]

The translation discrepancy got already debunked and Glass never addressed that bit further or anything.

I've read the thread, saying how it can mean X under certain context doesn't really change the underlying kanji translation.

And even aside from that, this upgrade would still be flawed anyways.

 

[Bobsican]

I've read the thread, saying how it can mean X under certain context doesn't really change the underlying kanji translation.

And even aside from that, this upgrade would still be flawed anyways.

That's just the kanji on a vacuum, again, gotta quote myself on this:

Okay, a better explanation, it'd be like saying that the etymology of a word stands literally for its origin over its current use, especially when taking into account the combination of terms granting possible different interpretations, a good example is how the etymology for the word "atom" would translate to something that can't be divided, even though that evidently isn't true regarding its subject strictly speaking.

Basically it'd be inappropiate to judge the kanji on its own when that's not how language works, at best you have some implication that's actively contradicted and leads to further assumptions, especially as the so-claimed "subspace" meaning in said context at best wouldn't refer to "second rate or inferior" but a later/secondary type to whatever is considered the normal spacial dimension. While i can admit it's not as explicit; I wouldn't suggest it's the opposite either. Especially to a dimension that acts as larger container to multiple universes. Which by the wiki standards would already have an extra dimensional axis being the main way of travel be said universes, given an extra axis is required for there to be parallelism (space) between universes.

 

[Hasty12345]

I've read the thread, saying how it can mean X under certain context doesn't really change the underlying kanji translation.

This seems reductive when Japanese is a highly contextual language

 

[Brogeefrong]

Off topic but why hasent this thread been put on queue?

 

[Bobsican]

In any case, regarding the "High 1-A" claims, given that the concerns mainly involve all of that just being 11-C, would it be fine to pass as being High 1-A levels of deep in 11-C in the worst case scenario? Asking as the current 1-A levels of 11-C the stuff has currently accepted would be outdated per the new tiering system standards regardless (in the sense of now being High 1-A at that scale (within 11-C, to reiterate) on paper).

 

[ThatBoiRick]

Except that nothing in that blog remotely has anything that actually qualifies for R>F stuff, especially when all it is is just constantly 11-C downscaling and somehow extrapolating it into 1-A to High 1-A.

Again, that is not the argument, at no point did I make a claim saying “existing below R>F means you are beyond it.” The claim is that one world provides the ontological basis for the world below it and thus would be higher in quality. The SoA is not a part of the descending R>F hierarchy, if that was the case Riku wouldn’t need to obtain the power of waking. Hearts are already accepted as Type 1 concepts, which are platonic concepts. This isn’t my interpretation, in fact it was established far before I became active. Me not referencing the platonic cave is me being and idiot and not thinking of it, hearts are platonic in nature as again, accepted.

] a lot of this stuff sounds like stuff that would pass for 1-A in CSAP wiki, not the VSBW. Also again, Megaten has actual dimensionality being transcended at a conceptual level, KH doesn't. Also worlds that comprises of concepts that define reality does not even reach 1-A, what verse unironically does that by itself without any elaboration of dimensionality being surpassed? I can name several verses on the top of my head that has concepts defining reality but that doesn't translate to 1-A by default.

I don’t have a single shred of knowledge on CSAP so I can’t argue on what would get accepted there. I can, however, state that being beyond the concept of dimensionality is not required to gain 1-A. Especially when the point of the argument is that again, one world provides the platonic basis for the baseline reality.

 

[ThatBoiRick]

Further more, glass so far has failed to articulate how exactly a platonic world wouldn’t view the baseline as qualitatively lesser. He keeps using the point of “no statements regarding being beyond dimensionality.” When these are no longer required to get 1-A. He’s also not debunked the context behind hyperspace’s in KH being used for warp driving.

To reiterate my argument:

The Chasm of Dreams and Quadratum are 11-C

The baseline world is 4D (already accepted)

The ocean between is 6D (Hyperspace that allows for warp driving while simultaneously having a higher timeline, that latter was accepted)

The Final world/World of Heart are 1-A (platonically defines all aspects of reality, because hearts are accepted as type 1 platonic concepts)

Light and Darkness are High 1-A (beyond the distinction between the concepts of dream and reality because they existed before and transcend both to a level far beyond “conceptual.”)

Most of the arguments against me are “it’s just interpretation” when it’s all already been accepted, like hearts being UES or them being Type 1 concepts.

 

[Qawsedf234]

your inputs here would be appreciated

I'm not seeing any valid arguments for 1-A or High 1-A that isn't doing some serious bending. The fact Ultima already rejected it after making the tiering system changes also doesn't give me any indication that LH gets to 1-A.

So count me as against.

 

[ThatBoiRick]

I'm not seeing any valid arguments for 1-A or High 1-A that isn't doing some serious bending.

So count me as against.

Could you elaborate on the “serious bending?”

 

[Qawsedf234]

Could you elaborate on the “serious bending?”

As one example, Type 1 Conceptual Manipulation being called platonic concept on the site just means it's an independent function the things that participates in that idea. But that doesn't translate to qualitative superiority on its own.

For the 1-A scaling you're arguing that since one is a qualitative lesser that the other should be a qualitative greater, but that isn't a valid argument for either tier. Since both arguments involve layers going up or down in comparison to the baseline cosmology. 1-A and up require a complete disconnection.

The fact the Darkness can spawn things that can spawn lesser things that can then tap into greater fundamental forces is just an anti-feat in my view. So I'm against this upgrade for those reasons and the stuff previously mentioned by Ultima. So list me as disagree.

 

[ThatBoiRick]

As one example, Type 1 Conceptual Manipulation being called platonic concept on the site just means it's an independent function the things that participates in that idea. But that doesn't translate to qualitative superiority on its own.

Alrighty then

For the 1-A scaling you're arguing that since one is a qualitative lesser that the other should be a qualitative greater, but that isn't a valid argument for either tier. Since both arguments involve layers going up or down in comparison to the baseline cosmology. 1-A and up require a complete disconnection.

So statements saying the Final world (proposed 1-A in question) being unreasonable by the physical world wouldn’t help here huh.

The fact the Darkness can spawn things that can spawn lesser things that can then tap into greater fundamental forces is just an anti-feat in my view. So I'm against this upgrade for those reasons and the stuff previously mentioned by Ultima. So list me as disagree.

Everything in the verse is comprised of darkness, someone tapping into higher forces would be something like achieving Brahman. As it was already existent within you.

If 1-A and High 1-A are in disagree what about 6D ocean between based on the arguments proposed

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Doesn't all of that shit comes from a noncanonical novel?

No, it doesn’t.

 

[Pepsimanslover_69]

As one example, Type 1 Conceptual Manipulation being called platonic concept on the site just means it's an independent function the things that participates in that idea. But that doesn't translate to qualitative superiority on its own.

Hasn't that term been discarded?

 

[Qawsedf234]

Hasn't that term been discarded?

The image for the page is Plato's concepts and the ideas of the tier are based on them. The terminology just isn't present anymore.

If 1-A and High 1-A are in disagree what about 6D ocean between based on the arguments proposed

I'm not really seeing where you're getting the second temporal axis from. Can you explain it in more detail here?

 

[Vietthai96]

Platonic being independent concept doesn't mean all kind of independent concepts that exist in fiction is Platonic

 

[Bobsican]

I'm not really seeing where you're getting the second temporal axis from. Can you explain it in more detail here?

That's already accepted here

 

[Qawsedf234]

That's already accepted here

Well none of that implies a secondary time axis to me. Ignoring that I guess 6D in terms of 4D+2 would work.

Though in reality I'm only seeing 4D+1 because everything you listed in that blog has nothing to do with different temporal directions in my view.

 

[Bobsican]

Well none of that implies a secondary time axis to me. Ignoring that I guess 6D in terms of 4D+2 would work.

Though in reality I'm only seeing 4D+1 because everything you listed in that blog has nothing to do with different temporal directions in my view.

It's more so some semantics in the series involving time travel to states of the cosmology before some erasure requiring an hypertimeline to work, more specifically, the cosmology once all had a single universe, then that universe was erased, then a ton of universes were born a while after that, meaning that for characters to be able to travel from the original universe and to the future (and vice-versa) that'd be outside of such timeline as it doesn't exist anymore to begin with, thus would require an hypertimeline, it's kinda like the hypertimeline thing in Sonic involving Crysis City in Generations but explored more in depth.

Of particular consideration are instances in which timelines as a whole are changed, such that there is a timeline (or multiple timelines) before they were changed and after they were changed or created / destroyed. As the timelines as a whole are changed, the before and after in this context can't be the past and future the timelines usually use, but should be a separate direction.

 

[Delta333]

I also made a thread about High 1-A cosmology regarding the realm of concepts that’s beyond any extension of the R-F layers, so I think the idea here is that since these concepts create and govern R-F layers, one could say that any possible amount of R-F layers will still be bound to these concepts, like how one cup or infinite cups are still subjective to the concept of cup, thus being High 1-A in nature.

Not that I agree or disagree with this thread since this one is not completely same as mine, there are way more than just whatever above, but I just want to explain what OP means for others to have a better understanding for evaluation, assuming if my interpretation is correct.

 

[Bobsican]

Bump.

 

[CloverDragon03]

I mean idk about 6-D but High 1-A seems solidly rejected

 

[Bobsican]

I'm mainly bumping for the 6-D stuff, yeah.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Alright then I'll call some staff

@SamanPatou @Maverick_Zero_X @DarkDragonMedeus My starting lineup

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I disagree FRA.

 

[Bobsican]

Uh... the reasons for the stuff not qualifying as 6-D were seemingly debunked, can you be more specific? Unless you mean the outerversal claims, lol.

 

[Theglassman12]

I share the same view as Qawsed, not exactly seeing anything beyond 5-D at best.

 

[Bobsican]

...That'd be regarding the hypertimeline stuff, which'd require its own CRT (and I'm not sure how much more blatant it could be as it follows to the letter stuff in the Tiering System FAQ), the hyperspace stuff is something Qawsed is fine with in the first place.

 

[Theglassman12]

the hyperspace stuff is something Qawsed is fine with in the first place.

Though in reality I'm only seeing 4D+1 because everything you listed in that blog has nothing to do with different temporal directions in my view.

He still said he only sees 5-D at best from your blog, even if he's fine with hyperspace, he didn't say he agrees with 6-D.

 

[Bobsican]

The premise of this thread focused on the yet-to-be-reaccepted hyperspace stuff, the hypertime stuff is already accepted and even he has conceded as much already.

Well none of that implies a secondary time axis to me. Ignoring that I guess 6D in terms of 4D+2 would work.

 

[Qawsedf234]

He still said he only sees 5-D at best from your blog, even if he's fine with hyperspace, he didn't say he agrees with 6-D.

I think it's just 5-D for being 4D+1. However, the current accepted scaling for the realm is 3D+2 and the OP is saying it should be 4D+2.

I disagree with the +2 part, but its the accepted cosmology and the 4D part makes sense to me. I would agree with getting rid of the +2 part but that would require a seperate CRT since it's unrelated to these revisions.

 

[ShionAH]

Yeah I disagree FRA

 

[Bobsican]

TBH I'm starting to feel that users are focusing on the High 1-A stuff evaluation-wise when that's no longer the focus, would it be better to just make a separate thread for the hyperspace stuff?

 

[Eseseso]

TBH I'm starting to feel that users are focusing on the High 1-A stuff evaluation-wise when that's no longer the focus, would it be better to just make a separate thread for the hyperspace stuff?

I think so.

 

[VoidGoji]

Considering that High 1-A was debunked/rejected, yeah. Close this thread then make another one