Kingdom Hearts III is canon to Toy Story

[GiverOfThePeace]

Also, the movies ignoring the events of KH isn't that big of a contradiction when it really didn't affect anyone in the Toy Story setting afterwards beyond the memories themselves, it happening after Toy Story 2 but before 3 (And 3 coming out way before KHIII) showcases that it didn't leave that much of an impact afterwards.

You just repeated an argument I specifically pointed out, it's a huge contradiction since it's a big moment of their lives, possibly the grandest adventure they had since nothing else nearly reaches that cosmic of a level yet they don't even mention it once. Arguing it didn't leave that much of an impact rather then it doesn't exist in Toy Story's canon is farfetched at best.

 

[QuasiYuri]

Tbh "they don't talk about it decade after" is a really weak argument against it.

A character not rementionning an event in their life is just because it's not relevant.

That's like saying Goblin Slayer Year One isn't canon because he never mentionned the archmage in the main one or that Good Looser parts aren't canon because Kumagawa didn't reference them in the main Medaka Box.

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

Tbh "they don't talk about it decade after" is a really weak argument against it.

A character not rementionning an event in their life is just because it's not relevant.

That's like saying Goblin Slayer Year One isn't canon because he never mentionned the archmage in the main one or that Good Looser parts aren't canon because Kumagawa didn't reference them in the main Medaka Box.

It really is not, that's a topic you talk about when it was a huge impact and how they say Sora and co. will always be with them.

There was a relevant scene where it could've been mentioned and wasn't, what does this tell us?

Awful false equivalence. Goblin Slayer Year One isn't a crossover, same with Medaka Box thing.

 

[Bobsican]

Also, I just checked the Crossovers and Canon pages, nowhere do they mention that for it to qualify as a canon crossover both involved series must reference the respective events outside the crossover itself.

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

Also, I just checked the Crossovers and Canon pages, nowhere do they mention that for it to qualify as a canon crossover both involved series must reference the respective events outside the crossover itself.

Like I said in discord, it's likely an unwritten rule.

 

[Bobsican]

It would be if all cases we take a "canon crossover" as obey it, but that seems to not be the case with cases such as Jimmy Neutron + Fairly Odd Parents, which we do accept as a canon crossover without that, respectively
It would also be a good idea to tag @Amelia_Lonelyheart as this user is knowledgeable in the TMNT "canon" crossover situation, which apparently also doesn't reference the events of this in both series afterwards too.

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

It would be if all cases we take a "canon crossover" as obey it, but that seems to not be the case with cases such as Jimmy Neutron + Fairly Odd Parents, which we do accept as a canon crossover without that, respectively

Direct quote from Jimmy's profile:
"Note: It is currently unclear if the Jimmy-Timmy Power Hour crossovers were canon to the Jimmy Neutron: Boy Genius verse, although there is evidence of this to not be the case for The Fairly OddParents! verse."

 

[Bobsican]

Yes, and Jimmy was planned to be upgraded by using certain events of that crossover
I can agree to a compromise where we just merge the profiles and leave a note over how the KH stuff is just dubiously canon to Toy Story by our standards if this is really the case.

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

Literally nothing in that thread says it was for upgrading Jimmy, it was for upgrading the character in the crossover.

 

[Bobsican]

Oops, wrong thread, it was this one, and it seems it was accepted

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

Uh no, they directly say they're going to make a separate profile based off the crossover.

 

[Bobsican]

In that case I have nothing more to add beyond asking for the Crossovers page to include as criteria for a canon crossover that both involved series must reference it afterwards, if this is a legitimate part of the criteria used, and a confirmation over this, as it really seems to be a suddendly made rule out of never being actually written.

Perhaps another thread should be done to polish the criteria first before continuing here? After all, in terms of staff, only @Antvasima is in support of this, alongside non-staff @GiverOfThePeace, @LephyrTheRevanchist and @Newendigo (Which assume that this "unwritten" standard is indeed a thing and has always been the case, or simply support it), while @DarkDragonMedeus , @SamanPatou and @YuriAkuto (A knowledgeable member in canon and crossover standards), and four regular users (@Ican'tthinkof1goodname , @MikeBro25 , @ElixirBlue , @ArkhamDC06 ) support this being applicable as canon to both series regardless, respectively.

 

[Dino_Ranger_Black]

Perhaps.....we should ask KH experts to see how valid it is. I do remember that the reason the toys could fight to begin with is because Young Xehanort invaded their world, which seems to have effects such as Buzz's laser actually being a laser. Maybe we should note this incase?

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

Hi, KH expert here, been talking this entire thread.

 

[Ican'tthinkof1goodname]

Bob is a KH expert as well

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

Bob is a KH expert as well

No one's denying that.

 

[ArkhamDC06]

No one's denying that.

Considering Bob's the one who made the thread and often brings the KH series up to debate, I think we can say we agree on that.

 

[Bobsican]

Assuming that the crossover being referenced afterwards by both of the involved verses is really necessary to normally qualify as a canon crossover by our standards...

I'll propose doing a compromise and merge the profiles as I've said in the OP, however, at the end of the respective profiles a note will be made that mentions that KH being canon to Toy Story by our standards was never explicitly referenced in the series of the latter, but that it's still a likely possibility per the other statements that show the intent behind all involved developers for both series to be the case, think of it like a "Likely" prefix as a justification for a key, except it's for a side of stuff being canon.

 

[Newendigo]

Amelia retired from the wiki, don't bother with bringing her here.

I will make that TMNT downgrade myself, since there is more than just scaling issues.

As for the proposal for a more explicit canon requirements, I agree.

 

[TheShieldToronto76]

Amelia retired from the wiki, don't bother with bringing her here.

I will make that TMNT downgrade myself, since there is more than just scaling issues.

As for the proposal for a more explicit canon requirements, I agree.

Hate to say but there is another TMNT thread active I did so might as wait for that to be over

 

[Newendigo]

The rule of "one CRT per verse" is long gone.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Oh yeah, the one-sided canonicity connection thing also makes sense.

 

[Bobsican]

Assuming that the crossover being referenced afterwards by both of the involved verses is really necessary to normally qualify as a canon crossover by our standards...

I'll propose doing a compromise and merge the profiles as I've said in the OP, however, at the end of the respective profiles a note will be made that mentions that KH being canon to Toy Story by our standards was never explicitly referenced in the series of the latter, but that it's still a likely possibility per the other statements that show the intent behind all involved developers for both series to be the case, think of it like a "Likely" prefix as a justification for a key, except it's for a side of stuff being canon.

Thoughts on this?

 

[QuasiYuri]

It really is not, that's a topic you talk about when it was a huge impact and how they say Sora and co. will always be with them.

There was a relevant scene where it could've been mentioned and wasn't, what does this tell us?

Classic "goodbye I'll remember you forever", just to not be mentionned again.

I watched Toy Story 3/4 and them mentionning KH at any moment would just have felt out of place to me. It's as relevant as them talking about Sid's dog, despite litteraly being one of the most "threatening" thing that happened to them.

Also throwing "Death of the author" at everything just doesn't work.
Pixar flat out says "it canonically happened here and they remember", it's highlighted as the difference with other worlds and Pixar directly involved themselves in.

If we had a direct contradiction like them being in a box all the time between 2 and 3 then yeah it would not be canon.

But here there is none, so we have no reason to say that severals confirmation are wrong because we somehow decides that our opinion is better.

 

[Antvasima]

Like I said in discord, it's likely an unwritten rule.

That is correct, yes, but we should preferably add it as a written rule in the Crossovers page as well. I will gladly do so if other staff members are fine with it.

Anyway, thank you for being a voice of reason in this discussion. I obviously strongly agree with your viewpoints, and think that we should close this thread.

 

[Antvasima]

I will make that TMNT downgrade myself, since there is more than just scaling issues.

As for the proposal for a more explicit canon requirements, I agree.

Thank you very much for helping out.

I think that the Crossovers page is likely better suited for improvements than the Canon page in this case, but may be mistaken.

 

[QuasiYuri]

Obligating the involved series to reference a crossover for no reason, when authors clearly said word for word that said crossover was canon and even explain how it is, is basically shutting down pretty much all crossovers based on "my opinion is better".
Needless to say, I see this rule as nothing good

They're said to be canon, meant to fit in each others timeline, and both sides especially worked on it together so that they stay the same characters and all.

Can't do much more canonicity at that point.

 

[Antvasima]

Unless Pixar makes an official statement that the Kingdom Hearts events are canon, and preferably reference them in-universe, it is very unreliable, and sets a bad precedent.

In addition, even if it was canon, crossover characters from different settings are almost always significantly rescaled to roughly fit with the power levels of each other, which would explain outlier feats in this case as well.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

Unless Pixar makes an official statement that the Kingdom Hearts events are canon, and preferably reference them in-universe, it is very unreliable, and sets a bad precedent.

In addition, even if it was canon, crossover characters from different settings are almost always significantly rescaled to roughly fit with the power levels of each other, which would explain outlier feats in this case as well.

Wasn't it noted though that they underwent some changes like Buzz's laser becoming real? They aren't necessarily constrained to the exact same limits as they were in the movies, so I'm not sure if one can really argue outliers in this case.

 

[QuasiYuri]

Unless Pixar makes an official statement that the Kingdom Hearts events are canon.

In addition, even if it was canon, crossover characters from different settings are almost always significantly rescaled to roughly fit with the power levels of each other, which would explain outlier feats in this case as well.

The OP has two interviews talking about how Pixar said that it is canon.

Also yeah they're usually rescaled, but not in this specific case.
Here they are the same dudes, but shenanigans amped them (like, giving Buzz a real laser) and it's even mentionned that they can't do it normally.
So they would just get a key for where they got amps in KH and no change to the normal one.

 

[ArkhamDC06]

Maybe we could simply keep their KH profile and explain that they got amped due to circumstances (namely YX splitting their world). I'm fine with a second key though.

 

[Antvasima]

Even if it is canon, which is uncertain, standard crossover rules apply. Meaning, the characters get automatically rescaled by the writers to fit with the power levels of the other setting and make the story less unbalanced.

 

[ArkhamDC06]

Well that's kind of the idea anyway. The thing in KH is that Sora and co have to abide to the laws of the worlds they visit, at least partially, so they are kind of weakened. Still, Nomura's interview tend to confirm it as canon, especially since he talked about it with Lasseter, and it's more balanced in that case since the TS characters have been empowered by the events of the game (though it should be important to precise this).

 

[Ican'tthinkof1goodname]

So in what power key would the Resistance to Data Manipulation be placed?

 

[QuasiYuri]

Even if it is canon, which is uncertain, standard crossover rules apply. Meaning, the characters get automatically rescaled by the writers to fit with the power levels of the other setting and make the story less unbalanced.

It's confirmed in several interviews. Nothing uncertain.

Also I explained how they got a boost during the events of KH3 (said during the game) and weren't changed in base.

Some Superman fought together in crossovers and they're scaled to their true level too.

 

[Bobsican]

So in what power key would the Resistance to Data Manipulation be placed?

Depends on if we assume that the main Toy Story verse is within the KH cosmology or not, although it's stated that they have a Heart regardless, so the first key.

 

[ArkhamDC06]

Probably the first I think. Since the whole thing is canon.

 

[Zencha9]

yeah i agree with this it's pretty blatant

 

[Antvasima]

It's confirmed in several interviews. Nothing uncertain.

Also I explained how they got a boost during the events of KH3 (said during the game) and weren't changed in base.

Some Superman fought together in crossovers and they're scaled to their true level too.

Just to clarify, did Pixar, rather than Square-Enix, say in interviews that the Kingdom Hearts scenes are canon?

Also, what exactly do you all want to do here, scale the Toy Story characters to Sora and company, or give them extra keys for the crossover only?

 

[Bobsican]

Just to clarify, did Pixar, rather than Square-Enix, say in interviews that the Kingdom Hearts scenes are canon?

Also, what exactly do you all want to do here, scale the Toy Story characters to Sora and company, or give them extra keys for the crossover only?

Yes, look at the last quote in the OP, for example.
The latter, although some resistances out of KH stuff would carry over to the base key as well, and for the record, they won't scale to the KH cast anymore, I originally had planned to downgrade them either way as they really have no feats to scale to the KH cast, hence why I'm proposing in the OP to just scale to their own feats while in those events.