Kingdom Hearts III is canon to Toy Story

[Antvasima]

Well, I suppose that scaling them to their own feats during the crossover might work for the extra key then, but additional abilities for their base keys based on the crossover are a big no-no, due to how inconsistent crossovers tend to be with the main canons.

 

[Bobsican]

Well, that they tend to be doesn't mean that we have to assume that's always the case, especially with there being no contradictions in the Toy Story series of carrying over such resistances out of their mere physiology.

 

[Antvasima]

If they haven't demonstrated anywhere near the same power levels and abilities in any Pixar-produced stories, we cannot assume that they would be the same without evidence. Crossovers do almost always play very fast-and-loose in that regard, as it is hard enough to keep a single continuity somewhat consistent without having to research and exactly accommodate another.

What do you wish to add exactly?

 

[Bobsican]

Let's see:

Woody and Buzz (Base key):
Non-Physical Interaction (Can harm Heartless), Resistance to Absorption, Death Manipulation (Unaffected by Heartless, which passively kill and absorb things around them), Data Manipulation (Ansem The Wise stated that the "heart" cannot be contained by data, and that the process itself would be incalculable), Existence Erasure (Can take hits from Heartless, which can do this with any attack)

Woody and Buzz (KH key):
Summoning, Explosion Manipulation and Flight (Via Rocket Ruckus)

Buzz (KH key):
Energy Projection (Can fire lasers)

 

[ArkhamDC06]

We should add an explanation for the whole thing I believe. Just to make it clear. Along with a key for KH.

 

[Bobsican]

Yes, perhaps it would be a good idea to move the compiled statements to a blog post to link to the respective profiles and the verse page?

 

[ArkhamDC06]

Could be good to do that, unless we manage to settle this here without too much problems. But do we make a general blog for all the changes or one for the TS stuff and the other for the other characters?

 

[Bobsican]

A blog just to list the changes isn't necessary (Beyond listing what KH being canon to Toy Story means indexing wise, I guess, which isn't much different), that's generally handled in threads like this one, also, this would also translate into all of the Toy Story profiles getting a Data Manipulation resistance out of having a Heart.

 

[Antvasima]

I am definitely not going to allow that you add any abilities from the Kingdom Hearts games to their regular statistics. Period. It is extremely unreliable and would set a terrible precedent. Extra keys may be acceptable though.

 

[ArkhamDC06]

I'm not against another key honestly.

 

[Bobsican]

Can you explain why? Them not carrying over the act of having a Heart to begin with requires the assumption that when all the events were over they suddendly no longer had a heart, which simply doesn't work given how Hearts in KH don't work like that, Young Xehanort even mentions that the ones that didn't come to Toy Box still had a Heart connection, meaning that they would have one regardless if we do take it as canon.

 

[Antvasima]

Also, we should almost never scale even canon crossovers to statistics and abilities in the main continuities. I think that I have added this as a rule previously, but if not, it is definitely our general standard.

 

[Js250476]

I personally don’t mind giving Woody and Buzz a Kingdom Hearts key or statistics (no pun intended) since it’s been stated several times to be canon and there is an in world explanation as to why the Toys are significantly stronger then they are in the films (that being Young Xehanort’s actions and the alternative world he created which is why stuff like Buzz’s laser becoming real happened.) I can get why it wouldn’t be accepted but I don’t have any issues if it does.

that said I’m not sure about giving these to the mainline Toy Story films but having them in a KH related key would be fine I would think.

 

[ArkhamDC06]

Getting another key is the idea Ant would accept, what he would refuse would be to add the KH abilities, like Resistance to Data, to the regular To Story profiles. So it's likely they would also get a tabber for their powers.

 

[Bobsican]

Also, we should almost never scale even canon crossovers to statistics and abilities in the main continuities. I think that I have added this as a rule previously, but if not, it is definitely our general standard.

Well, that's almost always the case that doesn't mean we have to assume it to be the case, please try looking more at this case instead of focusing into others, it doesn't set a bad precedent with the given context, you are essencially making up assumptions to keep them disconnected canonically when this isn't entirely the case in the end as said before to begin with.
For example, it requires the assumption that the Toy Story verse Hearts don't exist, which is automatically the case if they're bound to KH, Young Xehanort even says it

 

[Antvasima]

Because, for example, it is extremely farfetched to assume that what Pixar portray as a bunch of largely helpless tiny toys would be able to interact with non-physical entities in general, rather than that the standard crossover plot induced stupidity rules took hold to not make them entirely useless.

It would also twist these profile pages into an unreliable ridiculous joke to most of our visitors.

My apologies for being blunt, but please permanently stop trying to push through these types of very stupid changes and use your common sense Bobsican. I am getting tired of repeatedly dealing with them.

 

[Js250476]

If that’s the case then yeah I think adding another key is fine.

 

[Bobsican]

Because, for example, it is extremely farfetched to assume that what Pixar portray as a bunch of largely helpless tiny toys would be able to interact with non-physical entities in general, rather than that the standard crossover plot induced stupidity rules took hold to not make them entirely useless.

It would also twist these profile pages into an unreliable ridiculous joke to most of our visitors.

My apologies for being blunt, but please permanently stop trying to push through these types of very stupid changes and use your common sense Bobsican. I am getting tired of repeatedly dealing with them.

Well, how they are portrayed doesn't mean that they must not have a particular power they can't even use outside of such events out of a lack of particular targets to use with in the first place.
I mean, look at Barney the Dinosaur, the problem is if it's written as a joke, not if the content is simply laughable out of being too unexpected.
Sorry if this seems annoying for you, but I seek accuracy in indexing as well.

 

[ArkhamDC06]

Let's see. The whole canon thing is confirmed to be official through Nomura and Lasseter and it has been established the reason why Buzz can suddenly project real laser (I wanna see Zurg as a boss now) is because of YX wreaking havoc, wich means the toys got amped because of very special circumstances. Getting a new key seems to be a good solution to explain the edits.

 

[Bobsican]

Let's see. The whole canon thing is confirmed to be official through Nomura and Lasseter and it has been established the reason why Buzz can suddenly project real laser (I wanna see Zurg as a boss now) is because of YX wreaking havoc, wich means the toys got amped because of very special circumstances. Getting a new key seems to be a good solution to explain the edits.

The problem comes with how they always had a Heart even before the KH events, which would translate at worst at having in base a resistance to Data Manip.

 

[Antvasima]

Yes, each of them getting a new key is probably fine. Claiming that they were always capable of fighting with ghosts and nonexistent entities, for example, is definitely not.

 

[Bobsican]

Non-Physical interaction doesn't work like that, in their case it's only limited to beings that are elementally intangible, rather than ghosts or nonexistent beings as well (hint, Nobodies don't appear in Toy Box to begin with, plus they lost that ability a long while ago)

 

[ArkhamDC06]

Not wrong. Then again, it's a KH stuff and it's never described in the movies. So we could simply put it in the KH section for powers, then make a note on their profile to explain the whole thing.

 

[Ican'tthinkof1goodname]

Should other Toy Story characters get the Resistance to Data Manipulation?

 

[Bobsican]

Well, separating it essencially for organization purposes out of how the canonicity is shaky to some is something i can agree on.
And yes, they should, if we do take it as canon, as their universe would essencially be within the Realm of Light in KH.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

"Non-Physical Interaction (Can harm Heartless), Resistance to Absorption, Death Manipulation (Unaffected by Heartless, which passively kill and absorb things around them), Data Manipulation (Ansem The Wise stated that the "heart" cannot be contained by data, and that the process itself would be incalculable), Existence Erasure (Can take hits from Heartless, which can do this with any attack)"

I disagree with adding anything from the quote that I have made bold which is everything except the Data Manipulation which I'm kind of ambivalent about. Who would know if they always had those abilities from fighting Heartless in the first place? Personally, I'd lean towards them only having it in Kingdom Hearts.

 

[Bobsican]

"Non-Physical Interaction (Can harm Heartless), Resistance to Absorption, Death Manipulation (Unaffected by Heartless, which passively kill and absorb things around them), Data Manipulation (Ansem The Wise stated that the "heart" cannot be contained by data, and that the process itself would be incalculable), Existence Erasure (Can take hits from Heartless, which can do this with any attack)"

I disagree with adding anything from the quote that I have made bold which is everything except the Data Manipulation which I'm kind of ambivalent about. Who would know if they always had those abilities from figthing Heartless in the first place? Personally, I'd lean towards them only having it in Kingdom Hearts.

Mmm... out of sheer dubiousness with some I guess it's fine to keep all of those abilities bar the data manip resistance as you've said on the KH key for the profiles.
Every Toy Story profile surely will end up with a Data Manip resistance out of having a Heart.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

Mmm... out of sheer dubiousness with some I guess it's fine to keep all of those abilities bar the data manip resistance as you've said on the KH key for the profiles.
Every Toy Story profile surely will end up with a Data Manip resistance out of having a Heart.

Well, I'm kind of ambivalent about having the Data Manipulation Resistance on any character's page. It's a resistance that only the heart has out of all parts that make up a person in the verse and the heart is hardly going to be relevant in any situation that doesn't involve Kingdom Hearts characters. It isn't even a special ability since anyone with a heart has it by default.

 

[Bobsican]

Young Xehanort makes it quite clear that the toys have a Heart in general, he even references the bonds they have with the ones that didn't come (Such as Jessie, and of course Andy, as Sora and Woody point out later on)

 

[AKM sama]

I personally don’t mind giving Woody and Buzz a Kingdom Hearts key or statistics (no pun intended) since it’s been stated several times to be canon and there is an in world explanation as to why the Toys are significantly stronger then they are in the films (that being Young Xehanort’s actions and the alternative world he created which is why stuff like Buzz’s laser becoming real happened.) I can get why it wouldn’t be accepted but I don’t have any issues if it does.

that said I’m not sure about giving these to the mainline Toy Story films but having them in a KH related key would be fine I would think.

I think this solution will be the best course of action here.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

Young Xehanort makes it quite clear that they toys have a Heart in general, he even references the bonds they have with the ones that didn't come (Such as Jessie, and of course Andy, as Sora and Woody point out later on)

Well, everyone having hearts is the default assumption in Kingdom Hearts and a general rule. This much is clear but I'm wondering if the Data Manipulation Resistance that every heart has is something that is even worth mentioning on a profile page. Hearts are something that everyone has and the resistance itself is hardly ever going to be relevant in just about any situation.

 

[Bobsican]

Well, everyone having hearts is the default assumption in Kingdom Hearts and a general rule. This much is clear but I'm wondering if the Data Manipulation Resistance that every heart has is something that is even worth mentioning on a profile page. Hearts are something that everyone has and the resistance itself is hardly ever going to be relevant in just about any situation.

For indexing accuracy it's relevant, otherwise it could just be listed as something everyone holds in the Toy Story verse page, if editing all the pages over copying and pasting that is too much work (Which I can gladly do).

 

[Nehz_XZX]

For indexing accuracy it's relevant, otherwise it could just be listed as something everyone holds in the Toy Story verse page, if editing all the pages over copying and pasting that is too much work (Which I can gladly do).

I'm not sure about that. For everyone in the verse it's a detail that is simply a matter of fact and nothing special. It would be like the fictional equivalent of indexing the fact that people have limbs and organs or that they can speak English.

 

[Bobsican]

I'm not sure about that. For everyone in the verse it's a detail that is simply a matter of fact and nothing special. It would be like indexing the fact that people have limbs and organs or that they can speak English.

Yes, but not every character resists Data Manipulation, that it's just that common in KH doesn't make it irrelevant in general.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

Yes, but not every character resists Data Manipulation, that it's just that common in KH doesn't make it irrelevant in general.

Well, I did say that I'm ambivalent about this. If everyone is alright with having that sort of Resistance on the page, then I'm not going to complain about that. That being said, I find applying that sort of Resistance for Toy Story's original canon instead of just every Kingdom Hearts character to be even more ambivalent, even if that is a logical consequence out of the two franchises being canon to each other and I'm sure that other people will agree with me on that regard. Hearts as a concept aren't anything relevant or referenced for Toy Story as far as I know and the idea of having that on their profiles feels wrong as a result.

 

[ArkhamDC06]

That's the "problem" I think. Hearts are relevant for KH but the concept doesn't appear in TS and other Disney franchises so it's understandable people will raise an eyebrow at seeing regular TS profiles getting Resistance to Data.

 

[Bobsican]

Let's see what other think in that case, as it would be a blatant contradiction to just assume that Hearts aren't a thing in Toy Story when they are clearly implied to be the case within the events of the crossover (As it obviously would naturally be something to extend cosmologically and contextually)

 

[Nehz_XZX]

Let's see what other think in that case, as it would be a blatant contradiction to just assume that Hearts aren't a thing in Toy Story when they are clearly implied to be the case within the events of the crossover.

Well, I don't think that it is really a matter of assuming that hearts are not a thing in Toy Story and more putting things on the profiles or rather the main keys that are never mentioned or referenced in the main canon. Having hearts doesn't contradict anything and is the default assumption for anything that is related to Kingdom Hearts but the Data Manipulation Resistance for hearts is sort of redundant and irrelevant for the most part and on top of that kind of dubious since it is indirectly derived from statements about canon.

 

[ArkhamDC06]

Either we add the resistance to regular stuff or we make another key. In any case, the profiles should get a note to explain the whole stuff.

 

[Bobsican]

Well, I don't think that it is really a matter of assuming that hearts are not a thing in Toy Story and more putting things on the profiles or rather the main keys that are never mentioned or referenced in the main canon. Having hearts doesn't contradict anything and is the default assumption for anything that is related to Kingdom Hearts but the Data Manipulation Resistance for hearts is sort of redundant and irrelevant for the most part and on top of that kind of dubious since it is indirectly derived from statements about canon.

In that case it can just be listed on the Toy Story verse page, but I would rather wait to see what others think.