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Kingdom Hearts III is canon to Toy Story

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Bobsican said:
Ehh, you're ignoring an important part that the page says as well:
he solution became to place the plotline between Toy Story movies (specifically 2 and 3), satisfying Nomura’s vision, Pixar’s restrictions and creating a strange extra consequence: “I said, ‘Okay, so is it fair to assume that Woody and Buzz, and friends, remember Sora and everybody coming? Is it part of the story now?’ and they were like, ‘yeah,’ and I was kind of like, ‘Oh! Okay.’”

Here’s hoping for a Sora cameo in Toy Story 4.

The characters remembering the events that occured has always happened since KHII, Nomura asking the Pixar devs over this contextually refers to this being a canon crossover.
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I'm not ignoring the important part, I elaborated on that, the "solution" was a compromise with how Nomura does his vision for KH worlds, Pixar didn't want a garbagely done abridged world that KH Disney worlds are infamous for, the compromise was this, but the canonicity is still from Nomura's vision of having Sora be canon in all disney worlds.

Nomura asks them cause of his vision that Sora canonically visits every world, this is not new.
 
I skimmed through alot of comments cus I'm not reading those bibles about hax toys.

IMO the Heart thing, like many other things, is an in-universe concept only of KH, crossover characters having those traits is akin more to an in-verse equalization in which everyone must have ki or a soul for certain mechanics to work, should they lack anything similar in their original franchises.

Basically, either treat those keys as different entities, not mishmashing powers.

Or just create different profiles.
 
"Basically, either treat those keys as different entities, not mishmashing powers."

That's something I can agree with.
 
Newendigo said:
I skimmed through alot of comments cus I'm not reading those bibles about hax toys.

IMO the Heart thing, like many other things, is an in-universe concept only of KH, crossover characters having those traits is akin more to an in-verse equalization in which everyone must have ki or a soul for certain mechanics to work, should they lack anything similar in their original franchises.

Basically, either treat those keys as different entities, not mishmashing powers.

Or just create different profiles.
Click to expand...
This.
 
GiverOfThePeace said:
Where does this come from?
Click to expand...

Nomura discusses work on KINGDOM HEARTS, including Pixar properties, dealing with leaks and rumors - News - Kingdom Hearts Insider

Kingdom Hearts Insider - the largest kingdom hearts community and news resource on the web!
www.khinsider.com www.khinsider.com
Toy Story has finally arrived in Kingdom Hearts 3, but materials related to the Pixar movie were found in the first Kingdom Hearts design documents and in the Kingdom Hearts 2 code. Can you tell us why it wasn't included back then?

Nomura: I have always wanted Toy Story in Kingdom Hearts, and even as we were making the first game, I was hoping to include a world based on a Pixar film. So I asked our staff to prepare something in the event that we managed to get approval from Disney. Unfortunately, we were not given the opportunity and these ideas never went into production.

Was it because of the relationship between Disney and Pixar at the time?

Nomura: Since they were found in the code, people believe Toy Story was originally included but got cut during development, but that's actually not the case. We just prepared those assets so that we could present them to Disney and see if it was possible to create something with them. However, we were immediately told that we couldn't use those properties, without being provided with any specific reasons.

Anyways, if this really is a site standard, I'm fine with just keeping totally everything KH related (Even the data manip resistance) within a separate key
 
Newendigo said:
I skimmed through alot of comments cus I'm not reading those bibles about hax toys.

IMO the Heart thing, like many other things, is an in-universe concept only of KH, crossover characters having those traits is akin more to an in-verse equalization in which everyone must have ki or a soul for certain mechanics to work, should they lack anything similar in their original franchises.

Basically, either treat those keys as different entities, not mishmashing powers.

Or just create different profiles.
Click to expand...
Strongly agreed. I thought something similar after reading Bobsican's response to me. Even if Kingdom Hearts treats having a heart as resistance to data manipulation, other fictions do not, so we cannot apply it to the regular Toy Story world.

Also, I think that GiverOfThePeace makes very good sense in his evaluations about canonicity. Thank you to him for helping out.
 
Bobsican said:
Anyways, if this really is a site standard, I'm fine with just keeping totally everything KH related (Even the data manip resistance) within a separate key
Click to expand...
Thank you for being reasonable, and my apologies for getting heavily irritated earlier.

Being mentally pulled in different directions by lots of work, and being forced to argue about an area that acts as a trigger for me in the first place, is not a good combination.
 
It depends. GiverOfThePeace gave some good arguments against this being canon to Toy Story in the first place.
 
Also removing the Woody (Kingdom Hearts) and Buzz Lightyear (Kingdom Hearts) profiles, but keeping a redirect to the regular profiles once the merging is done.
Let's just wait for others to give their thoughts in that case.
 
Okay. We seems to have reached an agreement then.
 
I haven't updated the Crossovers page yet, but I would like to do so by including that crossovers have to be referenced within the separate story continuities themselves afterwards in order to count as official on each side.

If it isn't stated already, I would also like to mention that characters from different fictions should usually not scale from each other even if the crossovers are official, given that they are almost always fit to the power levels of the other setting, for such stories to work more easily.
 
Antvasima said:
I haven't updated the Crossovers page yet, but I would like to do so by including that crossovers have to be referenced within the separate story continuities themselves afterwards in order to count as official on each side.

If it isn't stated already, I would also like to mention that characters from different fictions should usually not scale from each other even if the crossovers are official, given that they are almost always fit to the power levels of the other setting, for such stories to work more easily.
Click to expand...
Well, the page already has this:

"Additionally, the feats seen or taken from the crossover may be consistent to one verse and not the other. There could be impressive feats seen as consistent with the established scale of one franchise, but that lack consistency with the otherwise featless franchise. We should only use scaling that does not contradict the statistics of the franchises, and need to use common sense for case-by-case analysis in addition to this."

And this:

"Take note that crossovers will often rescale the power levels of the different characters for the sake of writing a more entertaining story. This can happen in both in-canon crossovers such as Dissidia Final Fantasy, in which tier 6 and tier 2 characters fought on equal grounds, and in non-canon versions, such as between Luffy, Goku and Toriko. As such the character appearing in the crossover should only be considered to be as powerful as the original if that isn't beyond the degree of power reasonable for the events in the story or other participants in the crossover."
 
Newendigo said:
I skimmed through alot of comments cus I'm not reading those bibles about hax toys.

IMO the Heart thing, like many other things, is an in-universe concept only of KH, crossover characters having those traits is akin more to an in-verse equalization in which everyone must have ki or a soul for certain mechanics to work, should they lack anything similar in their original franchises.

Basically, either treat those keys as different entities, not mishmashing powers.

Or just create different profiles.
Click to expand...
Eh, not really, all crossovers in KH happen within the same reality that everyone shares, each "world" is simply a pocket reality that's bound to Kingdom Hearts (The thing, not the series), in fact, all of the featured "worlds" in the series come derivated from the separation of a far greater one at around the start of the timeline in the series, which would thus include this one.
In other words, to ignore KH lore and assume that the Toy Story world was never bound to it when it's clearly not the case is fallacious, and requires unreliable assumptions to keep it "separate", however, I'll let this go as it is out of the "main" Toy Story universe not actually appearing within the Realm of Light (Aka, where the main cast goes to explore "worlds"), as the one they do visit was an splitted one Young Xehanort did while also taking only a portion of the cast (This is why no regular humans nor most toys appear), so an argument could be made to just assume that it's outside, I'm mainly saying this part to avoid misconceptions, rather than to change stuff.

Anyways, I guess I can apply the changes, while also keeping a note over how it's simply dubiously canon the KH events to the Toy Story series, but not the other way around, correct?
 
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I think that GiverOfThePeace seemed to show that the crossover was canon to Kingdom Hearts but not to the Toy Story movies themselves, so I am not sure about such a note.

Antvasima said:
I haven't updated the Crossovers page yet, but I would like to do so by including that crossovers have to be referenced within the separate story continuities themselves afterwards in order to count as official on each side.

If it isn't stated already, I would also like to mention that characters from different fictions should usually not scale from each other even if the crossovers are official, given that they are almost always fit to the power levels of the other setting, for such stories to work more easily.
Click to expand...
Anyway, is it fine if I try to add a few minor clarifications to the Crossovers page, if necessary?
 
Okay. Thank you. I will check through it then.
 
You're welcome. Adding some stuff about it will be useful (even if it consumes my hopes of seeing Dissidia profiles being made even more lol #sadness).
 
I have done so:

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Crossovers?type=revision&diff=7046597&oldid=6473048

I personally think that Dissidia profile pages should be fine, as long as they strictly scale from the feats within the crossover itself.

I think that @SamanPatou and @Starter_Pack plan to start a staff discussion thread to either remove the "Profiles for crossover versions of characters from crossover games, and plot-irrelevant guest characters should NOT be allowed." sentence, or change it to "Profiles for plot-irrelevant guest characters should NOT be allowed.", but I may remember wrong.
 
I didn't follow this thead that much, so I don't know if this has something to do with the matter, but:

Our idea is basically that non-canon crossover/guest characters should be allowed, as long as they are unique in some way and follow the canon rules on not use them for scaling to their original counterparts or other canon characters.

It started from Darth Vader from Soul Calibur. He isn't canon nor to Star Wars nor to Soul Calibur, as such he can't be used to scale characters from both series to him. However, he is relevant and has his own story and powers different from the original, so he should be allowed to exist and himself can scale to the Soul Calibur characters he fought, it's the opposite thing that can't be done.

It's like secluding those unique and relevant characters in their own bubble, giving them ratings only using their own accomplishments in terms of feats and fights.

At the moment, non canon crossover characters aren't allowed, regardless of either they respect the canon rules and/or are unique.
 
Problem with Dissidia is that the game is apparently canon with every other game in the series wich, unless we say the characters in Dissidia are weakened or amped so they power can correspond to each other, means you have characters like Noctis (who is tier 6) who fight against characters like Sephiroth (who is tier 4/3). So unless we make profiles that strictly stick to what the characters show in those games, make a specific tier for the Dissidia's games universe and put them on that specific level, it's kind of difficult. But I would love to have that. Maybe we can do the same thing that has been for Calibur Vader though.
 
SamanPatou:

I think that you can probably create a staff only discussion about that, as long as you keep the intended revision to that alone, and do not overreach into other areas.
 
Don't worry, our aim has always been that specific issue, I wouldn't even know how to reach other areas.

I will talk with Starter Pack and open a staff thread later in time, since I still have to write a draft or something about the foreign fiction blogs, whenever I have the time and mood to do it properly.
 
Okay. No problem then. Thank you for helping out.
 
SamanPatou said:
I didn't follow this thead that much, so I don't know if this has something to do with the matter, but:

Our idea is basically that non-canon crossover/guest characters should be allowed, as long as they are unique in some way and follow the canon rules on not use them for scaling to their original counterparts or other canon characters.

It started from Darth Vader from Soul Calibur. He isn't canon nor to Star Wars nor to Soul Calibur, as such he can't be used to scale characters from both series to him. However, he is relevant and has his own story and powers different from the original, so he should be allowed to exist and himself can scale to the Soul Calibur characters he fought, it's the opposite thing that can't be done.

It's like secluding those unique and relevant characters in their own bubble, giving them ratings only using their own accomplishments in terms of feats and fights.

At the moment, non canon crossover characters aren't allowed, regardless of either they respect the canon rules and/or are unique.
Click to expand...
Another good example of characters that fall under this umbrella that I personally want to see be allowed to have profiles made are the various fighters from Super Smash Bros, a series which has been shafted time and again due to our crossover rules.

It mostly falls to the fact that despite these characters looking extremely similar to their Canon counterparts, they split off from them in terms of abilities, or even lack thereof, as well as story significance. The current Crossover rules, however, fails to understand that the fighters of Smash Bros live in their own world, performing activities completely separate from their supposed canon counterparts, and we should be taking their capabilities based on what they are able to do here, rather than restrict them based on what they already are elsewhere.
 
That seems fine to me. My problem is with scaling to canon from crossovers. I do not mind if separate notable/significant crossover pages themselves exist.
 
Our intent is exactly to not scale canon characters to non-canon ones, only the opposite.

Bringing again Soul Calibur Vader as an example, he got his tier because he fought Algol, a canon characters.
But, for example, if Vader had a 3-A feat Algol couldn't scale to him.

Scaling for non-canon crossover characters would be unidirectional, with them scaling to their own feats and to canon characters (if there's a reason) but not the opposite.
 
Well, the crossovers characters should only scale from the feats within the crossovers themselves, if that is what you mean.
 
Yes, with feats I mean their own demonstration of strength, such as destroying things, making explosions etc. and fighting against other characters.
Them defeating a canon character is a valid reason to get a tier, but the same can't be said in the opposite way.

I mean, if a non-canon character has a 4-B feat, and fights against a canon character that is 9-B, the canon character remains at 9-B, because that kind of upgrade isn't allowed.

Shortly, Non canon scales to canon, but canon doesn't scale to not canon.
 
Just to clarify what I mean, in Marvel vs. Capcom, none of the Street Fighter characters should scale to 2-A from canon Galactus in either their crossover or canon incarnations, to use a rather extreme example.

The Marvel vs. Capcom versions of the characters can be scaled from feats within this particular game itself though, but not from the feats of the regular canon incarnations, and the canon incarnations should not scale from the non-canon versions either.
 
Sure, Marvel vs Capcom also fails to have relevant and unique characters in the first place, since they are all their normal counterparts in a different setting without anything special.

The two main rules would still be that a non-canon crossover character shall be 1) Relevant and different enough from the original 2) Scaling only to himself, either by feats or fights.
 
Scaling only to their own feats within the crossovers, not to their canon counterparts, yes.
 
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