Kingdom Hearts 2-B and 2-A Upgrades Conceptual Mix

[Antvasima]

Thank you both for helping out. It is appreciated.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

Thank you both for helping out. It is appreciated.

You're welcome.

 

[Bobsican]

Ok, to start, I agree that the 2-B to 2-A structure makes sense, but what I disagree with is the scaling.

First, Kairi's right, True KH never unleashed its true power, because that would have meant that Xehanort won and succeded in rewriting the world (I say world, but you get what I mean).
Xehanort is definitely tapping into the KH for his powers and to amp himself, and so does the X-Blade, but there's no evidence he is using ALL of the KH's power, which is what would allow him to rewrite reality.
This is kind of a wiki rule that has been brought up before in other revisions, i.e. that just tapping into a power source doesn't make you scale to it fully unless we have evidences of it.
The fact that each time all the heroes also need to work together, combine their force and etc.. just to prevent the KH from being used in the first place kind of contradicts them scaling to the entirety of it.
And if the X-Blade, and several other characters in the series were already 2-A, why would they have had the need to summon the KH in the first place?


This wold be the ideal option, because some powers belong to or are effects of the darkness itself, and others come from the characters manipulating it


This is true, but it isn't the case here. The manipulation of darkness may allow you to achieve specific effects, but there's no reason to assume everyone who manipulates darkness has access to them automatically.


They are something inherent or basic to learn/do, but we don't know if it's the same even for all the other possible applications.


Makes sense, also because if we think of it as a striclty "in-verse indexing" there's no reason to make it limited, since Hearts are basically the source of everything.


This is different from someone actively absorbing the keyblade or its user. This is just unrelated to absorption as an ability.



With sending her away I meant allowing her to reach destiny island through fate shenanigans when she was in danger.
But my whole point is that if Aqua's spell is still working, then sure, we can consider is as "current" fate manipulation (although blessed works better) otherwise we shouldn't consider that bit as thing that still lasts (the other fate stuff is ok, however)

Thing is that a fraction of 2-A power is still 2-A power, so teamwork being required to counteract it just means that they'd downscale if anything, tier 2 works differently from lower tiers on this regard, as we're dealing with infinities and all here, rather than a finite value whose division would yield lower finite values (like how a team defeating a 5-B together may downscale to Low 5-B individually). Consider it like how being above a Low 2-C won't make someone jump another tier (say, 2-C), but in the other way around. If they were below enought to not scale at all they'd just have been quickly stomped.

As for the why they'd need it if they were 2-A themselves, well, that's just a side-effect of scaling, we don't exclusively scale based on individual "Destructive Capacity" feats, but rather up to how much X can keep up with (often to another character that did have direct feats or similar on that level).
If it just happens to consistently be someone with proper DC feats then we take them in, even if they may lack the range for direct feats at that level, think of it like how several Castlevania characters scale to tier 2 yet can't destroy universes themselves out of simply lacking the range for that.

Also, Xehanort didn't want True KH only to destroy everything, he also wanted to remake it in his own image, as he says shortly after Sora and others defeat him.

As for the rest...

1: Yeah, I went ahead and updated the blog, how does it look on this regard?

2: Thing is that it's no different from spraying someone with it, which are the most inherent aspects of darkness in themselves, and it's not like we've seen anyone restrain them on purpose so only some of them trigger on that regard.

3: You mean like how darkness may be different in regards of, say, the one in a Corridor of Darkness, and the one in the Realm of Darkness? Well, that seems quite assumptive as there's nothing to claim otherwise AFAIK, and we default to the negative, so there's no reason to consider the darkness of them as of different kinds for these purposes.

4: As for the Power Mimicry and Absorption resistance, I guess that can't be used for evidence either, but one can still claim that it can't be copied as much as one would copy a mundane object, as we do still know that Xion had to assimilate a considerable amount of Sora's memories to copy it. Yozora couldn't also keep it for long as we all may know. Given that a Keyblade is directly bound to the heart of the user I think it'd be appropiate to say that to copy a Keyblade one would have to copy aspects of a heart, which is an unconventional resistance, but still one to consider given how it's portrayed.

5: Yeah, it appears that it's still being shown as still in effect, as Sora's still protecting Kairi regardless of what goes on.

 

[AKM sama]

Thing is that a fraction of 2-A power is still 2-A power

This isn't true.
An unquantifiable part of infinity is not infinite.
I can scoop out a teaspoon of ice-cream from an infinitely big pool of it.

Which is why tapping into a 2-A power source doesn't mean you are using 2-A power. You could be using 9-A power too.

 

[Bobsican]

It depends on context. Technically just borrowing power from a 2-A isn't inherently 2-A in itself as you've said, but there's still the matter that there's no reason to claim that Xehanort was holding back with it, especially when True KH was still threatening to erase the cosmology, and in the context of stopping that, doing that as a team can't be in a lower tier than 2-A, given that everyone's portrayed as significantly helping on stopping it, and it even works.

Also, Keyblades are based on the X-Blade and draw their tier 2 power from the user's heart. As the X-Blade is bound to True KH and is its guardian (it has coexisted with it since the start of the series' timeline), it stands to reason that it can draw use its full power in general and it's on its level.

I'll also remind that 2-A isn't only based on stuff relating to True KH, but also the recontextualization of Re:Coded feats relating to Data-Riku and Sora's Heartless out of simply being on that level now per the updated cosmology.

 

[Antvasima]

Bobsican seems to make some good points in his last post.

 

[Bobsican]

Bump.

I may as well mention another minor power to evaluate...

Currently we accept the Nil element as Void Manip, which is quite self-explanatory as it's Xemnas' main element, which is nothingness (and fits with what the term "nil" means), and has the effect of ignoring defenses when dealing damage.

Given that Xion's Ragnarok is a nil-type move, and it's inherited from Sora, I think they should get this out of the above. Xion even has this already, albeit with no justification right now.

 

[Antvasima]

@SamanPatou @Nehz_XZX @AKM sama

What do you think?

 

[Bobsican]

Uh... bump.

 

[Antvasima]

If the other staff members do not apply after a few days, you can ask me to send a notification to them again.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

Bump.

I may as well mention another minor power to evaluate...

Currently we accept the Nil element as Void Manip, which is quite self-explanatory as it's Xemnas' main element, which is nothingness (and fits with what the term "nil" means), and has the effect of ignoring defenses when dealing damage.

Given that Xion's Ragnarok is a nil-type move, and it's inherited from Sora, I think they should get this out of the above. Xion even has this already, albeit with no justification right now.

@SamanPatou @Nehz_XZX @AKM sama

What do you think?

If the game treats it that way way, then it should be fine. Xion's profile already mentions that the Durability Negation is done with the Nil Element and it also says that Ragnarok deals nil-elemental damage under Notable Attacks and Techniques.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thank you for the evaluation.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

Okay. Thank you for the evaluation.

You're welcome.

 

[Bobsican]

It seems that only the validity of the 2-A scaling is left to discuss now.

 

[Moritzva]

Can someone sum up the arguments and ideas relating to 2-A scaling?

 

[Nehz_XZX]

Can someone sum up the arguments and ideas relating to 2-A scaling?

True Kingdom Hearts has power over all hearts which means that it has power over all worlds and the infinite space between them known as the Ocean Between and Xehanort has visibly been making use of its power in his fight against Sora, Donald and Goofy with it being stated at the end that Kingdom Hearts could erase and restart the entire cosmology of the verse. It is also argued that the X-Blade would derive its power from True Kingdom Hearts due to being tied to it as its guardian and being as old as it and Keyblades which have been created based on the X-Blade deriving their power from their wielders' hearts.

The Datascape which is made up of the data of all worlds and everything pertaining KHI would contain the Ocean Between and the Realm of Darkness due to them having played a relevant role in KHI and has in fact been shown to contain things that the writer of the journal that it is based on didn't know about. Sora's Heartless was going to destroy that and then go into the real world to do the same thing there which has already been accepted in a previous CRT and would therefore be 2-A with the cosmology update.

The scaling to 2-A would apply to the vast majority characters in KH3D and KHIII, to the characters at the end of BbS and the end of Re:Coded and to some of the elements featured in KHII.

It has been argued that True Kingdom Hearts might not have unleashed its full power and that Xehanort might not have used all of True Kingdom Hearts' power, that multiple Keyblade Wielders were needed to prevent it from unleashing its power which would contradict them scaling to it on an individual basis and that characters scaling to it would contradict Xehanort needing it for his plans. The arguments against it are that it was still going to erase and restart the cosmology and that Xehanort doesn't have a reason to hold back, that the Keyblade Wielders would downscale due to their efforts actually working and that Kingdom Hearts is more than just a pure boost in Attack Potency and that Xehanort specifically wanted to remake the cosmology instead of just destroying everything.

 

[Bobsican]

Oh yeah, there's also the matter on if the current version of the heart verse specific power page is fine now, but that'd be up to @SamanPatou to answer.

 

[AKM sama]

but there's still the matter that there's no reason to claim that Xehanort was holding back with it, especially when True KH was still threatening to erase the cosmology, and in the context of stopping that, doing that as a team can't be in a lower tier than 2-A, given that everyone's portrayed as significantly helping on stopping it, and it even works.

I don't have any knowledge on the context of the verse, I was just pointing out a faulty argument relating to the tiering system.

 

[Bobsican]

Yeah, that's fair, thanks for clarifying to avoid misunderstandings and all.

 

[Antvasima]

Nehz last post above seems to make sense to me, but can somebody provide a better explanation why all worlds means infinite universes please?

 

[Bobsican]

Nehz last post above seems to make sense to me, but can somebody provide a better explanation why all worlds means infinite universes please?

Basically that a infinite space that could hold infinite universes (Even if there aren't that many universes within it) render it no different from a 2-A structure.
This already has precedent with Anos and Ultima's fine with it as the blog cites.

 

[Antvasima]

That doesn't seem reliable to me. We consider the 5-D distance between universes in a multiverse to be unquantifiable as a praxis, which is why many of the Dragon Ball characters are not 2-B for being thousands of times stronger than characters that can destroy universes.

 

[Bobsican]

Thing is that it's an actual physical space that could encompass infinitely-many of those worlds, and not just an empty void with nothing to destroy in the first place, like it is in most verses, so whether or not universes fill it entirely shouldn't be relevant, as Ultima said here on a fairly similar case.
If in doubt feel free to ping him here.

 

[Antvasima]

Nehz last post above seems to make sense to me, but can somebody provide a better explanation why all worlds means infinite universes please?

Basically that a infinite space that could hold infinite universes (Even if there aren't that many universes within it) render it no different from a 2-A structure.
This already has precedent with Anos and Ultima's fine with it as the blog cites.

That doesn't seem reliable to me. We consider the 5-D distance between universes in a multiverse to be unquantifiable as a praxis, which is why many of the Dragon Ball characters are not 2-B for being thousands of times stronger than characters that can destroy universes.

Thing is that it's an actual physical space that could encompass infinitely-many of those worlds, and not just an empty void with nothing to destroy in the first place, like it is in most verses, so whether or not universes fill it entirely shouldn't be relevant, as Ultima said here on a fairly similar case.
If in doubt feel free to ping him here.

@Ultima_Reality

Can you help us out here please?

 

[SamanPatou]

But how do we know Xehanort was able to harness such levels of power on his own?
To say he or the X-Blade could draw 2-A levels of power is quite the extraordinary claim that needs to be backed up by some evidences, especially when Xehanort couldn't immediately initialize his world rewriting plan and Kairi states the power of True KH was never released.

Also, having even the most fodder creatures and weaker characters at 2-A just because "infinity scales to infinity" is quite a weird thing, because it implies everyone is basically able to pull True KH levels of power but to a lesser degree of infinity.

 

[Bobsican]

First of all, Kairi didn't state that True KH never unleashed its power, but rather that Sora tried to prevent that (in the JP version, that is, I'm still working on a proper translation), which wasn't really the case when they had to counteract it directly before it wiped the cosmology.

More specifically, we're aware at this point that True KH was threatening to erase the cosmology so Xehanort could remake it afterwards in his own image, True KH was still threatening to do that after the whole fight (Goofy even wonders if they're too late), and Sora and others counteracted this directly, so even if the X-Blade didn't scale, they'd still scale as they could counteract a cosmological 2-A wipe.

Either way, it seems you ignored the part of the argument of that given that Keyblades are inferior versions of the X-Blade, and that they're bound to the user's heart as a source of power, thus given that the X-Blade coexists with True KH and is stated to be its protector and equal, it'd lead into it similarly drawing power from it in the same manner, and this is acceptable for scaling as much as we currently accept KHI Sora's strength of heart significantly affecting the KH of Worlds as a tier 2 feat out of this scaling to his Keyblade by extension.
Unless you'd want to argue that it simply drew power from Xehanort's heart, which seems rather assumptive given the Keyblade War before Union X was done to get it, implying its power isn't bound to the user, but rather to True KH given that was the goal after all, and either way that would support scaling by counteracting it as then it'd be by Sora's own power as a consequence, and so we end up with usable 2-A feats regardless overall.

And "most fodder creatures" wouldn't scale to 2-A, in fact not even Dusks would scale, as the arguments for them are for 2-B even if the 2-A stuff is accepted, so that isn't a concern. If Dream Eaters are your concern, I'll remind that they're the fusion of the Keyblade Wielders that got erradicated at the end of UX with their respective Chirithy (Which also helped Sora defeat the Demon Tide), which makes their scaling less questionable.

I'll also remind that the KHIII stuff isn't the only basis for 2-A, the Re:Coded and Birth by Sleep stuff further back up its consistency as the blog mentions.

 

[Bobsican]

"Sora tried to stop the liberation of Kingdom Hearts"

Yep, Kairi just states that he tried to do that, not that he managed to do that to begin with.

 

[Bobsican]

Bump.
I've heard that Ultima is pretty busy, so perhaps we could contact somebody else of trust in terms of 2-A semantics?

On that note, I think it'd be a double standard to decline 2-A here when it's accepted for other verses like Pokémon and Maou Gakuin no Futekigousha for similar reasons, and we all know very well the scrutinization they had to go for it.
So I think that to decline 2-A here would require a site-wide CRT on 2-A standards, so until then I think it's fine given the precedent, even Ultima is fine with it as said before. Unlike with either case there's also no potential vagueness (former) or WoG trustworthiness concerns (latter), so we don't even need a compromise with a "possibly" or "likely" rating either.

 

[Dereck03]

Hmmm, I must say that you shouldn't use too much the case of Maou Gakuin as shied, although at first glance it seems a similar case, in context and background the're very different, so I do not see why if this was not accepted as 2-A would affect the 2-A scaling of Pokemon, Maou Gakuin or even the standards themselves.

I feel bad to come here just to comment that, so I will give my grain of sand despite not being interested in the verse, due to my participation in a similar case before and seeing above the scans and information, I think a 2-A rating atm seems fine, tho i do not have time to read the whole blog, when I have time I will read it, and if I want I could elaborate more.

 

[Bobsican]

Maou Gakuin and Pokémon have as their bases for 2-A that there's a infinite space surrounding the universes within it, and because of that even if there aren't infinite universes around, the durability of such space as a whole is simply 2-A out of being a proper tangible space for the purposes of tiering that could also hold that many universes either way, rather than a void with nothing to affect in the first place, which is what we assume by default otherwise.

In this case the same argument is also being done, and so it'd be a double standard to rate it differently, and if it wasn't clear, what's being argued in this regard is the cosmology in itself for these purposes, of course feats will require separate discussion and context.

 

[Bobsican]

Uh... bump.

 

[Antvasima]

I just asked Ultima to comment here.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I buy 2-C to 2-B, as Xehanort was indeed gonna wipe the entire cosmology, but no higher than that. Infinite space between is uni+ at best.

 

[Antvasima]

Yes, I am strongly leaning towards agreeing with that.

 

[Bobsican]

Given that Ultima is still in hiatus out of IRL stuff (Which is understandable and all), perhaps @DontTalkDT could be pinged by an staff member to comment on the 2-A cosmology? It doesn't seem there's concerns over the scaling in itself at this point, other staff knowledgeable on 2-A semantics are also welcome, of course.

I may as well summarize its arguments, especially when the 2-B stuff is accepted at this point:

Every "World" is a universe, with the space between them being regarded as an hyperspace of infinite size, and so it's a different kind of infinity than the one within a universe.
Thus, the argument for 2-A relies on that its durability as a whole would be no different from a theoretical infinite number of Worlds (universes) if the 2-B stuff is accepted as well (Which is at this point), out of being an actual, physical space that could encompass infinitely-many of those worlds, and not just an empty void with nothing to destroy in the first place, like it is by default, so whether or not universes fill it entirely shouldn't be relevant.

This fits well to 2-A in the same manner Maou Gakoin and Pokémon rely on similar semantics for 2-A (partially for the latter), and even Ultima appears to be fine with this standard so far.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Every world is not a universe. Some are and some aren’t. There’s many that are universes, but then you have stuff like Monstro or Destiny Islands.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

Every world is not a universe. Some are and some aren’t. There’s many that are universes, but then you have stuff like Monstro or Destiny Islands.

Monstro is one thing since it is a living being in the Ocean Between with an admittedly weird inner layout but Destiny Islands? I'm pretty sure that we would consider that world to have a sun. Is there anything in particular that would contradict it being a universe?

 

[Bobsican]

Every world is not a universe. Some are and some aren’t. There’s many that are universes, but then you have stuff like Monstro or Destiny Islands.

Nehz already covered it, plus the blog already explains semantics that heavily imply that they're universes. Japanese is a language that relies on context, and to just take it to mean "planet" when plenty of lore goes against that is quite counterproductive to say the least. If you're going to refute that go point by point why you disagree with what's presented than to just claim so.

Monstro also isn't even a World technically, why do you think it has no Keyhole in KHI to lock to begin with? It's just a being that escaped its own World as it collapsed to darkness in KHI (Prankster's Paradise) and remained around the space between worlds.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Okay, fine. Because the plot doesn’t extend more than a planet. They’re worlds inside a universe, with exceptions. We know for certain that Deep Space is it’s own universe, and probably whatever Jack Skellington’s place is called, as well as many others. But Destiny Islands is just an archipelago in a planet in a universe. A universe that the Heartless didn’t consume. Neverland is literally just London. Finally, they’re presented as planets. Every time. I’ll attest that they’re not to scale, obviously. Agrabah is a prime example. Even more in the Pirates of the Caribbean world. But doesn’t change that they’re primarily planets.

 

[Antvasima]

I buy 2-C to 2-B, as Xehanort was indeed gonna wipe the entire cosmology, but no higher than that. Infinite space between is uni+ at best.

Given that Ultima is still in hiatus out of IRL stuff (Which is understandable and all), perhaps @DontTalkDT could be pinged by an staff member to comment on the 2-A cosmology? It doesn't seem there's concerns over the scaling in itself at this point, other staff knowledgeable on 2-A semantics are also welcome, of course.

I may as well summarize its arguments, especially when the 2-B stuff is accepted at this point:

Every "World" is a universe, with the space between them being regarded as an hyperspace of infinite size, and so it's a different kind of infinity than the one within a universe.
Thus, the argument for 2-A relies on that its durability as a whole would be no different from a theoretical infinite number of Worlds (universes) if the 2-B stuff is accepted as well (Which is at this point), out of being an actual, physical space that could encompass infinitely-many of those worlds, and not just an empty void with nothing to destroy in the first place, like it is by default, so whether or not universes fill it entirely shouldn't be relevant.

This fits well to 2-A in the same manner Maou Gakoin and Pokémon rely on similar semantics for 2-A (partially for the latter), and even Ultima appears to be fine with this standard so far.

@DontTalkDT

Would you be willing to help us out here please?