Kingdom Hearts 2-B and 2-A Upgrades Conceptual Mix

[Bobsican]

Okay, fine. Because the plot doesn’t extend more than a planet. They’re worlds inside a universe, with exceptions. We know for certain that Deep Space is it’s own universe, and probably whatever Jack Skellington’s place is called, as well as many others. But Destiny Islands is just an archipelago in a planet in a universe. A universe that the Heartless didn’t consume. Neverland is literally just London. Finally, they’re presented as planets. Every time. I’ll attest that they’re not to scale, obviously. Agrabah is a prime example. Even more in the Pirates of the Caribbean world. But doesn’t change that they’re primarily planets.

Only because that's what's mostly focused on. We already accept that Worlds are pocket realities, that combined with them having their own time axis in general as stated in KH3D and KHDR, and their nature clearly making them bigger than a planet minimally (such as having their own sun, being originated from the division of a infinite space in themselves and several other implications) leads into them being way bigger than that, and so qualify as universes as the meaning of "planet" in "Sekai" doesn't fit here, compared to the "universe" (which it can also mean as explained in the blog) one.

Destiny Islands is just a part of its space (universe), and the same applies to the other cases you've brought up. We don't need everything to go into the middle of space to rate them as universes if there's connotations to claim their size is of one.

Again, we can't treat Japanese as we would with English, context matters, and simply put, the context and several other factors lead into them fitting as universes.

There's also this Universe criteria they meet perfectly, and @DarkDragonMedeus even said he's fine with that applying here.

 

[Bobsican]

I've talked off-site with Cal and it seems he had the following misunderstandings:

- He thought that every world wasn't spatially separate (with the Ocean Between as the "host" universe), which is quite inaccurate. Simply put, we already accept as of the Low 2-C CRT that they're spatially separate from each other (And the Ocean Between for that matter) from the stuff in here, and thus pocket realities. In fact the only criteria missing for them to be universes for our purposes is size, which is what this CRT is covering right now, and I already went over how the Ocean Between is a different kind of infinity from the one within a universe as much as we use different kinds of infinity across the Tiering System, in this case being infinitely larger than a 2-B structure, thus 2-A.

- Ultima being fine with Anos' situation, combined with that being already applied and all (which by extension has affected Pokémon similarly), leads into that being a standard set on the site over 2-A semantics, which in this case the same applies out of the similar premise. Going against this would require a separate site-wide CRT to readjust the standard, so until then it's valid as otherwise it'd be a blatant double standard.

Therefore 2-A still seems solid so far.

 

[Bobsican]

Uh... bump.

So far it seems that any concerns over 2-A aren't really usable per the current standards and would require a separate site-wide CRT to revise. Until then the series fits well for it.

I don't think we need more agreement over it for that matter, several staff (@DarkDragonMedeus , @Nehz_XZX , @SamanPatou ), two of which are knowledgeable on the series themselves, and regular members (@Milly_Rocking_Bandit , @Strife304 , @Scottycj256 , @ZetaMarishi ) appear to be fine with it at this point, so I'd say it's time to conclude that it's fine as of now and allow the application of the stuff on the pages.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

There's also this Universe criteria they meet perfectly, and @DarkDragonMedeus even said he's fine with that applying here.

It looks like as if that Universe criteria still needs to be applied to the Universe page, so that's something to keep in mind.

 

[Bobsican]

DarkDragonMedeus has already said it's formally a thing technically speaking, but he should apply it and all to the page to avoid future issues of course.

 

[Antvasima]

Please explain how the Kingdom Hearts verse is infinitely larger than a 2-B structure, and what that 2-B structure is exactly.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Please explain how the Kingdom Hearts verse is infinitely larger than a 2-B structure, and what that 2-B structure is exactly.

Ok fine, I'll help Bobsican here given I'm explicitly asked to do so off site.

The 2-B structure is basically the whole of the Worlds, which are implied to be universes each, with their own axis and laws on top of that, as already explained from OP (all the evidence is in the blogs, to be exact). There's a world for each star in the universe, getting thus a 2-B structure.

Then there's a "sea" which infinitely dwarfs all these worlds, and is the barrier between all of them. Said sea is literally infinite, ergo it would be 2-A in size as it's physically that much big, given that logically it would be able to contain an infinite amount of universes. A bit like a box of infinite size is able to contain rocks of finite size, may those be finite or infinite in amount. Logic applies here, don't try to pull the multipliers argument because this isn't about making a 2-C/2-B characters 2-A because they got some infinite power shit, but here there's a space infinitely bigger than a 2-B cosmology, and in these cases it was agreed that a 2-A rating is valid.

And yes, you're ignoring what Ultima said in that Anos thread.

I'm fine with 2-A range based off of that, but I'm a bit confused as to why that wouldn't count as 2-A AP, too. Sure, a layer of the Silver Sea may not contain infinite universes on its own, but from what I'm reading, it seems like it's an actual, physical space that could encompass infinitely-many of those worlds, and not just an empty void with nothing to destroy in the first place, like it is in most verses, so whether or not universes fill it entirely shouldn't be relevant.

It not containing infinite universes is not a factor if it's shown to be big as such, as the sea in this case is literally infinitely bigger than both the amount of universes and the space between them, given that said space is enclosed from said sea.

I buy 2-C to 2-B, as Xehanort was indeed gonna wipe the entire cosmology, but no higher than that. Infinite space between is uni+ at best.

This is honestly bullshit. A box of infinite size which contain rocks can't be big as just a rock. Besides, Pokémon literally got upgraded basing on it having infinite space as well, with said space being the whole of parallel universes (and outside that proofs for 2-A Pokémon are nonexistent here). It's a pretty big double standard from you don't you think?

So either downgrade both Maou Gakuin and Pokémon with a CRT against infinite space containing universes being 2-A, or accept KH being 2-A. Because is literally the same shit.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. That seems to make sense. I suppose that 2-A seems fine to apply then. However, you need to link to a cosmology page that properly explains the reasons for this in the Kingdom Hearts verse page.

 

[Bobsican]

The OP already has that, so that isn't a concern thankfully.

Anyways, I guess all that's left now is to apply what has been accepted.

 

[Antvasima]

Yes.

Tell us here when you are done and I should close this thread.

 

[Dereck03]

The OP already has that, so that isn't a concern thankfully.

Anyways, I guess all that's left now is to apply what has been accepted.

Good work, since i were involved in a similar case (Anos Case), it would be strange for me not to see this case accepted as well... Anos vs KH when?

 

[Bobsican]

Actually, there's a pseudo-smurf with a 2-B that's practically 2-A, but I doubt it could work


Anyways, I've started with the Heart verse-specific power page for now.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

“This is honestly bullshit. A box of infinite size which contain rocks can't be big as just a rock. Besides, Pokémon literally got upgraded basing on it having infinite space as well, with said space being the whole of parallel universes (and outside that proofs for 2-A Pokémon are nonexistent here). It's a pretty big double standard from you don't you think?”
Jesus Christ, I told you in person that I haven’t been here for months. How could it be a double standard from me when I had nothing to do with that whatsoever?

 

[Bobsican]

It may have been accidental and all, but it'd set a bad precedent as a double standard either way. In any case I'm thankful you tried to word your thoughts on the matter Cal.

On another note, @Ultima_Reality has told me he has some concerns on 2-A, so I'll postpone tiering revisions until he has the time to post here and his issues are addressed and all.

 

[Antvasima]

We do not subscribe to using bad practices for one verse to justify bad standards for another via "double-standards" arguments though. Several wrongs do not make a right and case-by-case evaluations are much more our standard praxises.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

I am obviously a bit late to this whole discussion, so, apologies if I'm being disruptive, but I thought I might as well give my two cents here.

Either way, in regards to the whole deal with the Ocean Between, I should note that, currently, we go and have always went with the basic assumption that different universes are separated by a 5-dimensional space, which is something clearly expressed in our Tiering System page: That's why multipliers are not accepted as valid ways to skip through Tier 2, after all. Under those standards, the Ocean Between would have to be 5-D, likewise. And the fact it's infinite and apparently not really an empty space with nothing in it (That's the crux of the argument for 2-A, it seems), which is what the FAQ says is a large factor on what makes a higher-dimensional place not qualify for Tier 2 or up, would make it Low 1-C.

Of course, the standards for Tier 2 were not set by me, and I personally haven't ever seen a case of a gap between universes being rated at Low 1-C, despite the aforementioned standards, so there is a possibility I'm missing some important detail here, which means you shouldn't take my word as gospel here. But, regardless, the written rules are certainly there, already.

That said, this specific tidbit in the verse's cosmology blog caught my attention:

5: Back in the age of fairy tales (Aka, quite early in the timeline of the series), there was no space between "worlds" (aka, the Ocean Between), as it was just a singular bigger "world"[26]. After a certain event, this larger "world" was divided into how it's currently, with a large number of "worlds" floating in the Ocean Between.

This seems to imply that, previously, the whole space that would make the Ocean Between was occupied entirely by a single universe, which would put a dent both on what I've said above and on an upgrade to 2-A. Unless the Ocean Between already existed outside of the original world and the latter's fragments were just scattered through it, then that means its size is just the sum of all the worlds, which would make it Low 2-C. Infinite 4-D space falls under that tier, and we already rate singular universes made out of multiple ones as Low 2-C, too.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out, Ultima.

Please explain how this qualifies for Low 1-C according to our current tiering system? Is this something that you agree with, or should it be adjusted? Also, do you want input from DontTalkDT and KingPin0422 here?

 

[StrymULTRA]

This seems to imply that, previously, the whole space that would make the Ocean Between was occupied entirely by a single universe, which would put a dent both on what I've said above and on an upgrade to 2-A. Unless the Ocean Between already existed outside of the original world and the latter's fragments were just scattered through it, then that means its size is just the sum of all the worlds, which would make it Low 2-C. Infinite 4-D space falls under that tier, and we already rate singular universes made out of multiple ones as Low 2-C, too.

In the reference is said this, with the links to say that too:

"But thought the war extinguished all light from the World, the darkness could not reach the brightness inside every child's heart. With that light, the World was made as we know it today, with countless smaller worlds shining like stars in the sky."

---

"Long, long ago, all the worlds were still one. One day this would be called the age of fairy tales."

It seems more that is the Ocean which is an universe bigger than 2-C (DBS timelines are treated as 2-C for containing other universes, and there were cases of people wanting to make those Low 2-C), heck, is called a BIGGER world for a reason. And worlds are definitely Low 2-C in size. Devil May Cry has also a similar case, where the original universe was split in two, and the overall cosmology is considered 2-C for this.

Even if 2-A isn't legit, 2-B should at absolute least be a thing.

 

[Bobsican]

I probably should also mention as I've talked with Ultima on DMs over that, that on retrospective the original World of the age of fairytales having the Ocean Between as its space is quite assumptive (we have like, no statement really confirming that), and there's the following implying otherwise as well:

We can see that Donald and Goofy could get to such original World using the Gummi Ship, and as anyone with basic KH lore knowledge and all may know, a Gummi Ship travels in the Ocean Between to reach one. Mickey could also use a Star Shard (a Gummi variant) that allows travel across worlds, then managed to end up there.

To avoid misconceptions, I'm not saying that the original World wasn't the only one at the time (beyond Datascapes (Realms made of data) made by the Book of Prophecies and Game Central Station), Mickey and others appear to have time traveled, which makes sense considering this was way before even Timeless River (aka, before Disney Castle was built), yet they clearly act and appear as around the time of early KHI.

Therefore, this could avoid Ultima's concern in exchange of removing one of the arguments of Worlds being 2-B in general as they no longer come from a infinite space out of the original World not having the Ocean Between within itself, but the Low 2-C or Low 1-C idea over 2-A (even if not for this verse) could still linger up to debate, I'd normally say that 2-B would also require a bit of re-evaluation out of this, but Worlds already fit Universe criteria very well as is and aren't really affected given the above, so I wouldn't be concerned about that aspect.

I may as well mention that whatever's decided here will also affect Anos accordingly.

 

[Dereck03]

I may as well mention that whatever's decided here will also affect Anos accordingly.

Could you elaborate why this would affect Anos? It seems to be a problem of the KH verse itself to not qualify, which is the opposite of MG which does qualify.

 

[Bobsican]

Could you elaborate why this would affect Anos? It seems to be a problem of the KH verse itself to not qualify, which is the opposite of MG which does qualify.

Ultima appears to think so currently, at least for cases like this, if anything it applying to KH is up to debate as i've mentioned here.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Could you elaborate why this would affect Anos? It seems to be a problem of the KH verse itself to not qualify, which is the opposite of MG which does qualify.

I think Ultima means more that in this context the Ocean In Between is Infinite for 3D standards but nor for 4D ones. I thought about this for a while. But I need direct confirmation from him.

 

[Bobsican]

I recall Ultima said something among the lines that as the Ocean Between came from a 4D space, the result would thus be an infinite 4D space when it got divided, and so it'd be Low 2-C, even if it may have multiple universes within itself, although that sounds like it'd be something for a site-wide CRT first, but I'd appreciate confirmation from him as I'm unsure myself.

However, as I've said before, this may not apply to KH after all as it appears the Ocean Between wasn't bound to the original World to begin with, and so it'd qualify for 2-A, now if it's Low 1-C it's beyond me.

 

[StrymULTRA]

He did tell me that in DMs, Strym.

However, as I've said before, this may not apply to KH as it appears the Ocean Between wasn't bound to the original World to begin with, and so it'd qualify for 2-A, now if it's Low 1-C it's beyond me.

I don't think is Low 1-C to begin with, as you need some quite explicit statements of it being objectively higher than 4D (like the higher plane stuff in the Archie thread). The Sea in between lacks those, it's simply something infinitely bigger than those worlds put toghether, not something transcendent.

 

[Bobsican]

(BTW, I edited my post, I was quite unsure so I made sure to expand on that as well)

But yeah, I'm also unsure on Low 1-C myself.

 

[Bobsican]

I've contacted DontTalkDT over the matter, and the talk so far is here

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Please keep us updated regarding what he says.

 

[Bobsican]

I'm going to summarize the talk with DT:

- The space between universes indeed is assumed to be 5-D, however, significant proof over all of its axises being of significant size would be required for Low 1-C by significantly affecting it or similar as we'd do for other spaces. In any case it seems that's up to debate and he seems to lack the time to evaluate that, but Ultima does find it weird that a statement over such space being "infinite" not being enought, out of how we don't assume that a statement over a space being infinite isn't defaulted to only one of its axises, but rather just all of them.

- 2-A appears to be fine by the same proposed reasons as before and he agrees with that.

- He's yet to reply on whether universes with no 5-D space between them would fall as just Low 2-C regardless of the number, but he did mention they'd be "Tier 2".

Therefore, may I ask that @Ultima_Reality shares his thoughts on the remaining points in lack of better options? I'd ask @KingPin0422 as well, but I'm aware he's recovering from IRL stuff.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. If DontTalkDT agrees with 2-A, I have no complaints about it.

 

[Kingofwolves999]

KH4 announcement, I’m jigging

 

[Antvasima]

KH4 announcement, I’m jigging

Please provide a link to the information. Has a release date been announced already?

 

[Kingofwolves999]

Please provide a link to the information. Has a release date been announced already?

No release date but the trailer is on the official Square Enix YouTube channel.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thank you for the information.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

KH4 announcement, I’m jigging

No release date but the trailer is on the official Square Enix YouTube channel.

It's off-topic but I do like the news though I have already seen them. It might contain new relevant information though we should preferably not just wait for it since this is presumably still going to be a while.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Wow. 2-A, and KH4. You all won.

 

[Antvasima]

It should not be about "winning" here. It should be about accuracy/reliability.

 

[Bobsican]

Just saw the new stuff, and I'm very hyped and all, but we should focus on this CRT as that's quite off-topic, but I should mention I ended up predicting way more than expected (Like Quadratum being indeed the afterlife), and a heart being bound to the respective soul may have several indexing implications in here if that's indeed the case.

Anyways, I need more thoughts on Low 1-C, as it seems that's the only thing left to corroborate for accuracy funnily enought.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

It should not be about "winning" here. It should be about accuracy/reliability.

It’s slang, Ant.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. No problem then.

 

[Bobsican]

Bump.

I'm going to summarize the talk with DT:

- The space between universes indeed is assumed to be 5-D, however, significant proof over all of its axises being of significant size would be required for Low 1-C by significantly affecting it or similar as we'd do for other spaces. In any case it seems that's up to debate and he seems to lack the time to evaluate that, but Ultima does find it weird that a statement over such space being "infinite" not being enought, out of how we don't assume that a statement over a space being infinite isn't defaulted to only one of its axises, but rather just all of them.

- 2-A appears to be fine by the same proposed reasons as before and he agrees with that.

- He's yet to reply on whether universes with no 5-D space between them would fall as just Low 2-C regardless of the number, but he did mention they'd be "Tier 2".

Therefore, may I ask that @Ultima_Reality shares his thoughts on the remaining points in lack of better options? I'd ask @KingPin0422 as well, but I'm aware he's recovering from IRL stuff.

Still waiting for Ultima and KingPin to address the remaining stuff given that DT appears to lack the time for it or something.