Kingdom Hearts 2-B and 2-A Upgrades Conceptual Mix

[Bobsican]

Yep, Yen Sid says as much in KHII when he talks about Nobodies, to which Goofy mentions that if no heart had darkness the Heartless wouldn't be a thing, to which Yen Sid nods.
Ansem's experiments did make the foundation of Emblem Heartless, and while they appear way before in Dark Road, we've yet to see the explanation it should be given on the matter, and I wouldn't discard some Heartless being as old considering we do know several hearts fell to darkness in the Keyblade War, and how this darkness has been around before the universe (True KH), and such darkness being how the World got separated into how the current cosmology is.
Hmmm... I guess an argument could be made, but they'd be bound to Sora's Heartless given the context here, not that it changes much for these purposes, however.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

Yep, Yen Sid says as much in KHII when he talks about Nobodies, to which Goofy mentions that if no heart had darkness the Heartless wouldn't be a thing, to which Yen Sid nods.
Ansem's experiments did make the foundation of Emblem Heartless, and while they appear way before in Dark Road, we've yet to see the explanation it should be given on the matter, and I wouldn't discard some Heartless being as old considering we do know several hearts fell to darkness in the Keyblade War, and how this darkness has been around before the universe (True KH), and such darkness being how the World got separated into how the current cosmology is.
Hmmm... I guess an argument could be made, but they'd be bound to Sora's Heartless given the context here, not that it changes much for these purposes, however.

The thing is that the Heartless from Kingdom Hearts X came from the Books of Prophecies of the Foretellers and that the Heartless in Dark Road occupied worlds without any inhabitants, so the only hearts from that time that could have fallen to the darkness would be those of Keyblade Wielders. Sora's Heartless is the origin of the bugs but given that Sora's Heartless absorbs the intentions that are released through the fallen Heartless I don't believe that they are bound to it the same way they usually are to hearts or darkness.

 

[Bobsican]

IIRC the Heartless of UX didn't drop hearts, but Lux and Guilt. Well, thing is that the Re:Coded Heartless are still remarked to be "dark data", which'd imply a relation to darkness, but beyond that I'm neutral on this regard.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out, Saman and Nehz.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

IIRC the Heartless of UX didn't drop hearts, but Lux and Guilt. Well, thing is that the Re:Coded Heartless are still remarked to be "dark data", which'd imply a relation to darkness, but beyond that I'm neutral on this regard.

I can't say that I'm familiar with the things Heartless drop in UX but if it is different, then that's fine. The relation of the Datascape Heartless to darkness would be part of the Type 8 Immortality that is already part of the regular Heartless Physiology.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

Thank you for helping out, Saman and Nehz.

You're welcome.

 

[DBZMLP12345]

I've talked to the FF folks, "At least" here comes from a misuse out of simply scaling above another 2-A, rather than there being a possibility for tier 1, at least with what's currently on the pages.

I see, then if the 2-B and 2-A KH upgrades get accepted, we might be seeing some FF Dissidia vs KH threads sometime in the future

Speaking of 2-A FF, would 2-A apply to any KH2 Final Fantasy Characters? Or would all the KH Versions of the FF characters only scale to 2-B?

 

[Scottycj256]

the battle of 2-A MFTL+ characters

1-A MFTL+ when lulw

 

[Bobsican]

I see, then if the 2-B and 2-A KH upgrades get accepted, we might be seeing some FF Dissidia vs KH threads sometime in the future

Speaking of 2-A FF, would 2-A apply to any KH2 Final Fantasy Characters? Or would all the KH Versions of the FF characters only scale to 2-B?

All scale to 2-B, simply put, no FF character does anything significant in KH3D and afterwards, or is just unquantificable (We can't scale Sephiroth to Player as he's just an event with no proper place in the timeline).

 

[DBZMLP12345]

All scale to 2-B, simply put, no FF character does anything significant in KH3D and afterwards, or is just unquantificable (We can't scale Sephiroth to Player as he's just an event with no proper place in the timeline).

So the only characters from KH2 that scale to 2-A would be Sora via his Drive Forms, Lingering Will and the Summon Characters?

 

[Bobsican]

Yeah.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I personally think the tier upgrades looks good to me.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out, Medeus.

@SamanPatou @Nehz_XZX

What do you think about this? As in, what do you accept and what do you reject?

 

[Nehz_XZX]

I think I can agree with a verse-specific page for hearts since a lot of powers are tied to them.

We know that the Realm of Light contains worlds that are equivalent to a universe like Deep Space and if you combine that with them being spatially separate with their own time axises, then I'm fine with the idea of all worlds being the size of a universe. Either way the Realm of Light and therefore all of the Realms together are bigger than a universe which would make Sora's Heartless and Data-Riku a fair bit stronger than we currently treat them as.

Keyblades being able to manipulate hearts has been shown or stated on multiple occasions, so there is no need to discuss if they have it. Existence Erasure is something that I've actually advocated for myself in a past thread of mine and I haven't actually changed my opinion since then due to some questions and points of mine having been left unanswered. The resistances that the Keyblade would get due to Kirby would be a result of canon lore being incorporated in a non-canon game appearance, so unless we can't actually be sure if it is actually applicable in canon despite being based on canon lore I would be fine with it.

Fodder Nobodies scaling to some degree does make some sense due to the threat they are capable of posing in groups though they should be downscaling since they are individually clearly much weaker.

 

[Bobsican]

Okay, I think all that's left is for @SamanPatou to comment his remaining concerns, if any.

 

[Scottycj256]

Yeesh, Hayai

 

[Bobsican]

Bump.

I may as well mention that the blog has been updated as for some reason I forgot to also include a minor change to the Power of Waking. Namely Sleep Manipulation and Immersion, as its original purpose was to wake a heart from its sleep, which Riku does by entering Sora's dream and defeating the Armored Ventus Nightmare in KH3D and all.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

Bump.

I may as well mention that the blog has been updated as for some reason I forgot to also include a minor change to the Power of Waking. Namely Sleep Manipulation and Immersion, as its original purpose was to wake a heart from its sleep, which Riku does by entering Sora's dream and defeating the Armored Ventus Nightmare in KH3D and all.

Isn't Immersion for fiction though? While dreams are similar to fiction in the sense that they aren't real they are still things that people actually experience, so I'm not sure if that can be applied to that.

 

[Bobsican]

I'm unsure myself, so I'm open to what others think on the matter.

 

[Antvasima]

@SamanPatou

We would appreciate your further input here.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

I'm unsure myself, so I'm open to what others think on the matter.

I would personally just classify it as Dream Manipulation unless there is an aspect of Immersion that I don't know.

 

[SamanPatou]

@SamanPatou

We would appreciate your further input here.

I'll check the remaining things tomorrow, I promise.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you. Your help is very appreciated.

 

[SamanPatou]

Well, thing is that it's meant to show inherent powers of darkness by itself, rather than those used when someone does more sophisticated things with it, so I'd rather if you were more specific first on which may be worthy of a "possibly" then and why.

It all depends on what you want to include in the blog, which currently says A heart is made of light and/or darkness, the capability to manipulate either of the two aspects grants the following, yet it's to be noted that these powers are only for those that can actually manipulate either aspect

Darkness itself has its own powers, that are either natural properties of the that very thing or affect people when they enter the Dark World or get corrupted or taken by the Heartless, however, people who manipulate the darkness haven't shown the ability to use most of those things.

To surmise, if the blog/page is for the powers of the Darkness itself as a whole then yes, you can throw everything in it, but if it's strictly for Darkness Manipulators then list only the powers that the likes of Maleficent, the Organization XIII etc... have shown to possess, but even then we can't really be sure they all share the same abilities.
If we go with the latter, I'd say it would be safe to not make any generalization on darkness manipulators as a whole, and we straight up list what they can do on their own profile, noting they all stem from the manipulation of the Darkness.

Yeah, Mid-Godly negation being limited is fine, although it'd still be relevant to characters that can recover from their concept, mind or information, given how we currently rate hearts and allow them for verse equalization out of anyone existing having one by default.

This works only for vs matches purposes, which shouldn't be reflected on how we index stuff on official files.

Well, canonicity isn't as much of a concern when it's clear that the original lore was taken into account for these purposes, and so this displays what would happen theoretically for these purposes, plus it was still official content licensed by Disney, so it should be considerable at least. For that matter, we did have given on the site resistances to that sort of powers out of the semantics behind them being too complicated to cover (Without going NLFish) with a single power, so I'd also be open to just rewriting the reasoning accordingly.

I heavily disagree with this, because you can say the same of most of other licensed crossovers where lore and stuff has been taken into account, and then we'd set a bad precedent in terms. I mean, we don't even list martial arts techniques if they don't come from canon games, listing an entirely new power that is unsupported by canon material is way out of discussion (strangers being unable to wield keyblades is way different from someone absorbing it or Sora entirely)

While the fate of her finding someone to keep her safe was already done and all, the part of "someone to keep you safe" implies it'd be long term, which makes sense when Aqua denotes Kairi being next to her in KHIII and the spell she did over this working, so it's reasonable to claim that Kairi's still bound to the fate of having someone to keep her safe, more specifically Sora, there's also the Paopu fruit binding their destinies, BTW.

All that stuff is already covered by the rest of the explanation, but wasn't Aqua's spell limited to sending Kairi away when she needed it? I'm not sure all the other fate shenanigans specifically stem from Aqua's spell, but if that's the case then fine with it.

Mysterious Figure (aka, Young Xehanort) is cited as something in Xehanort's timeline in the KHIII Ultimania and the Memorial Ultimania, specifically in the Land of Departure and all to confront Aqua, Terra and Ventus. And Vanitas Remnant has to be defeated before unlocking MF. For that matter, the Memorial Ultimania calls Vanitas Remnant the "materialization of Vanitas's strong will", so it'd be no different from Lingering Will in terms of identity in relation to Vanitas.

Ok then with listing it, but I still disagree with it being actual regeneration, since Vanitas didn't really return to life.
It's more akin to a combination of Supernatural Willpower and Immortality type 7 (taking into account the recent additions), since Vanita's will kept lingering around as a ghost/husk-like entity with limited agency, and not as the real being.

I guess one could say that the clothes just make up their own magic to refill when it runs out? Fine by me.

I'd still call it possibly, because it isn't that clear how they gather said energy.

In the Mirage Arena, in the multiplayer mode of the original PSP version (it got removed in the HD ReMix version in place of a "reworked" single player mode), D-Linking to either of the two players allows to inherit their entire Deck Command set, even if they'd be uncompatible (For example, Ventus can use Zantetsuken by inheriting from Terra's D-Link while in this mode), we already accept that D-Links allow to inherit powers from other characters, so this is more of a sort of supportive evidence than the main argument TBH.

Damn, that's a cool thing.
Anyway, I would list only what they have access to after performing a D-Link, instead of every single ability of the linked character.

Well, one thing is that they're omitted for narrative purposes, another is that there's no way to claim they ate at all without making considerable assumptions, especially when there's the direct implication they didn't (At least in Pride Lands). At worst it'd be a notable stamina feat in some way.

In Pride Lands they might have eaten bugs and stuff like Simba does in the actual movie, but at that point you might very well say that Mufasa and other good characters have self-sustenance because it would be ooc for them to kill and devour innocent animals.
I don't think we have enough arguments to say they really don't need to eat, especially because there is the possibility that they did, and the thing isn't really supported by anything in particular.

Both, they can prevent it from triggering and can heal it as well. Megalixirs also do the same (As they're just Elixirs but with usage for the whole party), while we're on that. I'd also say that the Kupo Coin can also ignore the status effect given how there's the whole mechanic of Yozora reviving with it if he manages to steal it, implying that it was a part of the fight.

Makes sense.




I'm catching up with the blog, and I have reached the 2-A section, but I have to stop due to time contraints, mental energy and the fact I can't check YT videos where I'm in this moment.
I'll try to finish before tomorrow, but I can't make promises.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

This works only for vs matches purposes, which shouldn't be reflected on how we index stuff on official files.

Details that would be relevant for how we index it on official files would be the fact that Heartless will exist as long as darkness exists, that the Regeneration Negation works on Dream Eaters which aren't reliant on hearts and are also manifestations of darkness which take the place of Heartless in the Realm of Sleep and that it also works with Heartless in the Datascape where they release their intentions instead of hearts with even knowledgeable characters not noticing the difference until Sora's Heartless shows up.

 

[Bobsican]

1: Thing is that the stuff that happens in the Realm of Darkness isn't exactly a trait that just only happens to be in it, it comes out of the darkness within it, Aqua constantly remarks this in 0.2, and that's why she could go back to it to search for Sora without much concern in Re Mind as she got her Keyblade Armor to protect her from the darkness.

Now if your concern is that some characters may simply be unaware of some of its capabilities and thus be out of character (mind manip, summoning and probably a few others), then I could just make a separate section for powers that'd require some awareness for the respective techniques for the most part (we generally index powers a character technically has access to even if they may never use them in character, after all), I say this because stuff like Corridors of Darkness are generalized as a capability to anyone affiliated with it, for instance, and several effects of darkness are clearly portrayed as inherent to it, rather than a special variant or the like.

2: Nehz covered this well, and while we wouldn't go as direct as to mention verse equalization in the pages, we'd still mention something among the lines of "This prevents hearts from reforming them, which are bound to someone's mind, information and concept", which is more than enought information for our purposes.

3: Hmmm... I can see what you mean, but the argument for it wasn't only based on Kirby. A Keyblade is picky of its owner, and it desires someone with a strong heart for it to allow itself to be wielded, that's how Sora stole Riku's at the start of KHI, after all, his heart was simply better at the time. If anything it's just an unconventional resistance and could be clarified then.

4: Sending her away? Uh... not really, her wording also mentions that the one she goes for would also be someone to keep her safe. This part was already accepted in the original CRT, so there shouldn't be much of a concern here. As for your other concern, as mentioned in the blog, it's referred to as fate-changing stuff by WoG, so that's covered too.

5: Supernatural Willpower and Type 7 immortality that happens to work on an High-Godly level seems fine to me.

6: Sure, we do know that Sora can absorb Magic and Drive Orbs after all.

7: Yeah, for the sake of low-ends we can't claim they inherit Shotlocks or Command Styles.

8: Hmmm... yeah, the "lack of eating" is too vague to use seriously then.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out, Saman and Nehz.

 

[Bobsican]

Bump.

On another note I'm wondering if it'd be a good idea to do a template for the verse-specific powers, namely to keep consistency of the categories they'd inherit. For example, a {{Keyblade}} template would not only link to the page, it'd also grant the inherent categories. Stuff exclusive to Keyblade Masters or simply more special (Power of Waking) would still be manually added, but it'd still be a good step forward.

 

[Antvasima]

No. We only use category templates for tiers. That is sufficiently messy already, and you suggestion does not seem to have any useful benefits.

 

[Bobsican]

How so? It'd be no different from verse-specific power pages, they compress and simplify indexing (And in fact complement them), while also retaining consistency in the process, and so would be a very positive addition overall. They even reduce the amount of maintenance on the pages as we no longer have to concern over adding or removing a category from every page everytime the verse-specific power page gets changed, but just edit the template accordingly.

I'd even argue that it'd be good to do this on all verse-specific power pages in terms of indexing, but that'd deserve its own thread.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

How so? It'd be no different from verse-specific power pages, they compress and simplify indexing (And in fact complement them), while also retaining consistency in the process, and so would be a very positive addition overall. They even reduce the amount of maintenance on the pages as we no longer have to concern over adding or removing a category from every page everytime the verse-specific power page gets changed, but just edit the template accordingly.

I'd even argue that it'd be good to do this on all verse-specific power pages in terms of indexing, but that'd deserve its own thread.

That sounds like something for the thread for suggestions for improvement to me.

 

[Bobsican]

Hmmm... yeah, I may as well suggest it over there, it's kinda derailing a bit and all.

 

[Antvasima]

You need to explain exactly what you have in mind much better there in that case. I don't want to turn the wiki even more messy and complicated to manage.

 

[Bobsican]

Let's continue in the Suggestions for Improvement thread, this is considerably derailing as is.

 

[Antvasima]

Yes. Agreed.

 

[Bobsican]

Uh... bump.

 

[SamanPatou]

I'm getting back at it, I swear I couldn't do it yesterday, when I had energy I didn't have time, and when I had time I didn't have energe, and this stuff requires me to be focused.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

I'm getting back at it, I swear I couldn't do it yesterday, when I had energy I didn't have time, and when I had time I didn't have energe, and this stuff requires me to be focused.

Okay.

 

[SamanPatou]

Ok, to start, I agree that the 2-B to 2-A structure makes sense, but what I disagree with is the scaling.

First, Kairi's right, True KH never unleashed its true power, because that would have meant that Xehanort won and succeded in rewriting the world (I say world, but you get what I mean).
Xehanort is definitely tapping into the KH for his powers and to amp himself, and so does the X-Blade, but there's no evidence he is using ALL of the KH's power, which is what would allow him to rewrite reality.
This is kind of a wiki rule that has been brought up before in other revisions, i.e. that just tapping into a power source doesn't make you scale to it fully unless we have evidences of it.
The fact that each time all the heroes also need to work together, combine their force and etc.. just to prevent the KH from being used in the first place kind of contradicts them scaling to the entirety of it.
And if the X-Blade, and several other characters in the series were already 2-A, why would they have had the need to summon the KH in the first place?

then I could just make a separate section for powers that'd require some awareness for the respective techniques for the most part

This wold be the ideal option, because some powers belong to or are effects of the darkness itself, and others come from the characters manipulating it

(we generally index powers a character technically has access to even if they may never use them in character, after all),

This is true, but it isn't the case here. The manipulation of darkness may allow you to achieve specific effects, but there's no reason to assume everyone who manipulates darkness has access to them automatically.

I say this because stuff like Corridors of Darkness are generalized as a capability to anyone affiliated with it, for instance, and several effects of darkness are clearly portrayed as inherent to it, rather than a special variant or the like.

They are something inherent or basic to learn/do, but we don't know if it's the same even for all the other possible applications.

Nehz covered this well, and while we wouldn't go as direct as to mention verse equalization in the pages, we'd still mention something among the lines of "This prevents hearts from reforming them, which are bound to someone's mind, information and concept", which is more than enought information for our purposes.

Makes sense, also because if we think of it as a striclty "in-verse indexing" there's no reason to make it limited, since Hearts are basically the source of everything.

Hmmm... I can see what you mean, but the argument for it wasn't only based on Kirby. A Keyblade is picky of its owner, and it desires someone with a strong heart for it to allow itself to be wielded, that's how Sora stole Riku's at the start of KHI,

This is different from someone actively absorbing the keyblade or its user. This is just unrelated to absorption as an ability.

Sending her away? Uh... not really, her wording also mentions that the one she goes for would also be someone to keep her safe. This part was already accepted in the original CRT, so there shouldn't be much of a concern here. As for your other concern, as mentioned in the blog, it's referred to as fate-changing stuff by WoG, so that's covered too.

With sending her away I meant allowing her to reach destiny island through fate shenanigans when she was in danger.
But my whole point is that if Aqua's spell is still working, then sure, we can consider is as "current" fate manipulation (although blessed works better) otherwise we shouldn't consider that bit as thing that still lasts (the other fate stuff is ok, however)

 

[Nehz_XZX]

The Regeneration Negation also works on Dream Eaters and Datascape Heartless which do not have Regeneration that is tied to hearts as far as I'm aware, so that's something to keep in mind as well.