Kingdom Hearts 2-B and 2-A Upgrades Conceptual Mix

[Bobsican]

Okay, we're close to the end, and consider this my gift to the 20th anniversary of KH.
What? You thought Low 2-C was a legitimate thing on the part of the KH group at the start? Not at all, it was all a ruse to keep the more controversial stuff (this) more acceptable socially speaking.

(rubs hands)

Now, for real, here's a summary of what's being proposed:

- First of all, a Heart (Kingdom Hearts) verse-specific power page, this way the nature of everyone in the verse is defined far better within a single place, while also reducing the bloat of text in pages and ensuring proper indexing, this also leads into considerable ability additions to anyone that can manipulate a heart, darkness or light, but that's to be expected.

- Everything else is covered in this separate blog post for organization purposes, but in a nutshell...

- KH of Worlds is 2-B, True KH, Sora's Heartless threatening to erase the Datascape and Data-Riku sustaining it become 2-A feats. 2-B scales to anyone currently in Low 2-C, 2-A scales to more "pronounced" top tiers (read this part of the blog for more information)

- Keyblades get Heart Manip, Existence Erasure based on targeting the existencial concept that makes the existence of someone else (their heart), and a resistance to Power Mimicry and Absorption out of how they work and their portrayal.

- "Fodder" Nobodies (Dusks and above) become 2-B out of scaling to KHII characters.

- Sora gets his current Type 8 Immortality upgraded on not requiring Kairi to be aware of his death and is extended up to High-Godly, Sora and Kairi also get Fate Manip that prevents permanent death in normal circumstances, but not incap or knock out.

- KHIII Sora and others that'd scale get Stellar Lifting Strength out of being capable of briefly lifting the collapse of Skoll's pocket reality, which had a sun.

- Anything else is quite minor and is covered here

 

[Dalesean027]

Oh shit WAIT when did they get back upgrades to Universe+ I'm not complaining but daaamn it's good to see

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Oh shit WAIT when did they get back upgrades to Universe+ I'm not complaining but daaamn it's good to see

Yeah my pfp is low 2-C now. LMFAOAOAO

 

[Bobsican]

*2-A
Stitch unironically scales to 2-A, but don't blame me, blame Nomura : V

 

[Kingofwolves999]

And thus the truth behind the smaller CRT’s is revealed. The plan for 2-A KH has been long but worthwhile.

 

[Bobsican]

Some started to call me Aizen off-site, but shhh

 

[Coolboy6]

Okay…..that just came out of nowhere.

 

[Dalesean027]

Okay…..that just came out of nowhere.

Right

And thus the truth behind the smaller CRT’s is revealed. The plan for 2-A KH has been long but worthwhile.

Literally I got no notifications of any KH crts for months and then this came out of no where and apparently in that time we got low 2-C and now we're getting 2-A

Man's blessed the verse with the Aizen tactics apparently

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Sora finally at his rightful place. I agree.

 

[Scottycj256]

man, I was bamboozled by him in the Low 2-C thread, but i agree anyways

 

[Strife304]

I'm in agreement with this. Great work

 

[SamanPatou]

First of all, a Heart (Kingdom Hearts) verse-specific power page, this way the nature of everyone in the verse is defined far better within a single place, while also reducing the bloat of text in pages and ensuring proper indexing, this also leads into considerable ability additions to anyone that can manipulate a heart, darkness or light, but that's to be expected.

This seems fine, but it should be noted that some powers are highly situational and don't always apply.
For example, Sora doesn't go around erasing people, possession happened once to a victim of "general darkness", Corruption and related powers are effects of the World of Darkness, but no one has actually manipulated them, and the same goes for EE.

Inorganic Physiology is unnecessary, since the Heart is already incorporeal.

About conceptual stuff, it depends on how the other thread went, which I admittedly have yet to check deeply (although I don't want to anchor it down)

KHIII Sora and others that'd scale get Stellar Lifting Strength out of being capable of briefly lifting the collapse of Skoll's pocket reality, which had a sun.

I don't understand this, the feat is already unquantifiable because they were pushing against just a fraction of the energy/wind caused by the collapse of the place, and even then they needed to be shielded, but the whole thing itself wasn't pushing them with the whole weight of the pocket reality itself, which was still in the process to collapse.


I will check everything else, this time for sure since it doesn't give me headaches like the conceptual/nep stuff, but rather slowly due to time constraints and the length of the things to read, and most likely I will tackle one point at a time.

 

[Bobsican]

Well, as it's stated in the KHX novel, EE only happens after significant damage is done per-say, so it isn't like "EE gg" or whatever. Plus we also have Xion being stated to have been erased from existence upon her defeat by Roxas (KH3D journal entry), which gives more consistency to EE for Keyblade wielders based on that.

Also, corruption and the like are inherent darkness powers, after all, Sora did also get possessed by darkness in KH3D (As the Armored Ventus Nightmare).
If anything it'd be nice if you listed what you think isn't inherent for someone that manipulates darkness to sort it out better, and yes, the conceptual stuff was accepted on the previous thread. This thread in fact is for handling how it affects pages for proper editing.

Yeah, I could remove Inorganic Physiology from that if it's redundant.

Well, it wasn't just "collapsing", Skoll did an attack on them that also destroyed itself and the pocket reality in the process, in which the argument lingers to, now if it's unquantificable even then, then fine by me.

Also, thanks for giving some input : V

 

[It_is_i_wyatt]

based

 

[Bobsican]

Bump.

 

[SamanPatou]

Well, as it's stated in the KHX novel, EE only happens after significant damage is done per-say, so it isn't like "EE gg" or whatever. Plus we also have Xion being stated to have been erased from existence upon her defeat by Roxas (KH3D journal entry), which gives more consistency to EE for Keyblade wielders based on that.

Makes sense, just be sure to specifiy the details properly when/if it gets added.

Well, it wasn't just "collapsing", Skoll did an attack on them that also destroyed itself and the pocket reality in the process, in which the argument lingers to, now if it's unquantificable even then, then fine by me.

It's unquantifiable because the collapse took some time, so it wasn't a single 4-C blast, and Sora's team was already getting overpowered by a small fraction of an omnidirectional wind and ultimately got carried away.
Also, to consider the pocket-dimension that big we need proof and such about the light source being an actual sun.


I will check everything else (including the inherent darkness manip powers) soon (not today, though, sorry).

 

[Bobsican]

The blog already cites an interview that confirms that Skoll could manipulate the sun, which'd heavily imply that its pocket reality holds a sun out of this, but outside of that, fine by me.

 

[Cyberblader90]

bump

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out so much Saman. It is very appreciated.

 

[Antvasima]

@The_real_cal_howard @Dragonmasterxyz @Nehz_XZX @Matthew_Schroeder @CrimsonStarFallen @Js250476

Would any of you be willing to help out with evaluating this please?

 

[DBZMLP12345]

Ooooooh, KH becoming 2-B to 2-A Rubs hands this is going to be interesting

Anyway, Bob just to inform you, Larxene is still High 6-A

 

[Bobsican]

Odd, I thought I already updated the page, but I'll do that once I get home.

 

[DBZMLP12345]

Odd, I thought I already updated the page, but I'll do that once I get home.

Alright, also, was Nobody fodder like Dusks supposed to be upgraded to Low 2-C? (At least for right now if the 2-B and 2-A stuff actually gets accepted later on) cause the Average Nobodies are still At Least 9-B

 

[Bobsican]

Not really, that's just being recently proposed in this thread, so I'd have to wait on whether that's accepted to begin with to edit accordingly.

 

[XXKINGXX69]

How does having something incorporeal inside of you incorporeality? I have it too

Sora lost most of his powers and strength.

That looks like statistics reduction too since it nullifies his strength

Darkness can also erode a heart.

That also sounds like mind and soul manipulation and conceptual manipulation since you said they are abstract

I agree with everything else

 

[Bobsican]

In the same manner Abstract Existence type 2 works, sure, the being in question isn't incorporeal, but the heart itself is.

Hmmm... yeah, stat reduction for darkness seems fine, I'll go ahead and add that.

Not soul manipulation, hearts and souls are separate things as discussed in the CRT that accepted the conceptual stuff for them, but yeah, that part doesn't support EE for them in particular but heart manip in itself. "Mind Manip" is already covered in the section with Corruption and everything else more properly, which is an inherent ability of darkness than of manipulating hearts.

TBH I'm considering to remove mind manip (Which currently is listed separately for different reasons) as it doesn't appear to be an inherent ability unlike the rest, but I'm waiting for @SamanPatou on that regard.

 

[Bobsican]

Bump.

 

[Antvasima]

@JustSomeWeirdo @Theglassman12 @Crabwhale @GyroNutz @DarkGrath @Moritzva

Would any of you be willing to help out with evaluating this please?

 

[ZetaMarishi]

Seems fine to me, in all honesty. Our boy Sora getting his due finally.

 

[DBZMLP12345]

I'd be surprised if 2-B and 2-A KH gets accepted, but I'd welcome it, love KH lol

 

[Bobsican]

@DarkDragonMedeus did mention an accepted standard that's yet to be properly indexed in the Universe standards in another CRT, which I think applies here as well:

• If there is shown to be a collection of multiple alternate worlds/dimensions that are either stated to be parallel or existing next to each other and/or there are visual depictions resembling each of those worlds/dimensions in bubbles, and most importantly, at least one of those individual worlds/dimension has the other requirements to consider them universal in nature, then the conclusion is to consider all of those individual worlds/dimensions universes and that the entire collection is a multiverse.

Worlds fit the criteria of being inside bubbles in the sense that we already accept them as pocket realities with their own time axis, with them just appearing like a simplification of the "main" content within it based on where the heart of it is, and of course that's far from the only criteria to meet here, for the second (And most relevant) part we already have Toy Box and Deep Space as Worlds that are explicitly universal given their size, statements and lore, this combined with these two Worlds not being remarked as special on this regard leads into all Worlds being considerable as universes and that this collection is a multiverse for our purposes, leaving at a side several other implications that lean that way as well as detailed in the cosmology blog.

 

[SamanPatou]

Also, corruption and the like are inherent darkness powers, after all, Sora did also get possessed by darkness in KH3D (As the Armored Ventus Nightmare).
If anything it'd be nice if you listed what you think isn't inherent for someone that manipulates darkness to sort it out better, and yes, the conceptual stuff was accepted on the previous thread. This thread in fact is for handling how it affects pages for proper editing.

To be safe I think you can just list as inherent powers of darkness manipulators just what they have been shown using, maybe calling them "possible inherent powers" because we don't really know if they can all harness its effects in the same way

Keyblades get Heart Manip, Existence Erasure based on targeting the existencial concept that makes the existence of someone else (their heart), and a resistance to Power Mimicry and Absorption out of how they work and their portrayal.

Heart Manip, EE and Regen negation look fine, but the latter should be limited, as it only works on Heartless because of their regen being based on the hearts they have, meaning that the Keyblade wouldn't stop the regen of a character who's restores themselves in a different way.
I completlely disagree with the resistances because of Kirby, Smash shouldn't be considered at all (until Nomura confirms that's canon too). If we had a "Stealing" power page then you could give the Keyblade resistance to it for the other reasons, but with what we have at the moment I think you can just write it as simple text.

Sora gets his current Type 8 Immortality upgraded on not requiring Kairi to be aware of his death and is extended up to High-Godly, Sora and Kairi also get Fate Manip that prevents permanent death in normal circumstances, but not incap or knock out.

This looks fine, but everything that stems from Aqua's spell shouldn't be applied to Kairi, as I think the spell "expired" once she reached Destiny Island. It still works as Fate Manip for Aqua, though.

Anything else is quite minor and is covered here

I'd swap Maleficent's light manip with illusion, as that's what we currently use to label Holographic Projections and such.

I wouldn't call the Vanitas Remnant a proper regeneration, more like a sort of limited resurrection, as that's more of a husk with limited agency instead of the actual Vanitas (also, is it even canon? I don't know how do we treat post-game superbosses).

Merlin doesn't say Sora's clothes gather energy from the surroundings, just that they gather it. Unless I'm missing something, we can't really tell if the clothes actually absorb energy.

I don't quite remember how the Mirage Arena works in BbS, could you give me more stuff to look at?

Yen Sid should have Extrasensory Perception instead of Enhanced Senses, he states that he feels Riku but doesn't mention any of the conventional senses.

I disagree with self-sustenance for the main trio, those are just things that get omitted for narrative purposes, just like them never sleeping, going to the bathroom and stuff. It should be fine for those without a heart, as they are basically living corpses and stand completely unconscious and isolated for much longer periods of time.

Remind me if these Formchanges, Panaceas and Elixirs actually allow you to resist, instead of just removing the status effect, because otherwise it would be Purification and not Resistance.

Everything else in that list looks fine.



I will tackle the remaining (and bigger, I think) stuff about 2-B to 2-A soon.

 

[Bobsican]

Well, thing is that it's meant to show inherent powers of darkness by itself, rather than those used when someone does more sophisticated things with it, so I'd rather if you were more specific first on which may be worthy of a "possibly" then and why.

Yeah, Mid-Godly negation being limited is fine, although it'd still be relevant to characters that can recover from their concept, mind or information, given how we currently rate hearts and allow them for verse equalization out of anyone existing having one by default.

Well, canonicity isn't as much of a concern when it's clear that the original lore was taken into account for these purposes, and so this displays what would happen theoretically for these purposes, plus it was still official content licensed by Disney, so it should be considerable at least. For that matter, we did have given on the site resistances to that sort of powers out of the semantics behind them being too complicated to cover (Without going NLFish) with a single power, so I'd also be open to just rewriting the reasoning accordingly.

While the fate of her finding someone to keep her safe was already done and all, the part of "someone to keep you safe" implies it'd be long term, which makes sense when Aqua denotes Kairi being next to her in KHIII and the spell she did over this working, so it's reasonable to claim that Kairi's still bound to the fate of having someone to keep her safe, more specifically Sora, there's also the Paopu fruit binding their destinies, BTW.

Fine by me over the Maleficent stuff.

Mysterious Figure (aka, Young Xehanort) is cited as something in Xehanort's timeline in the KHIII Ultimania and the Memorial Ultimania, specifically in the Land of Departure and all to confront Aqua, Terra and Ventus. And Vanitas Remnant has to be defeated before unlocking MF. For that matter, the Memorial Ultimania calls Vanitas Remnant the "materialization of Vanitas's strong will", so it'd be no different from Lingering Will in terms of identity in relation to Vanitas.

I guess one could say that the clothes just make up their own magic to refill when it runs out? Fine by me.

In the Mirage Arena, in the multiplayer mode of the original PSP version (it got removed in the HD ReMix version in place of a "reworked" single player mode), D-Linking to either of the two players allows to inherit their entire Deck Command set, even if they'd be uncompatible (For example, Ventus can use Zantetsuken by inheriting from Terra's D-Link while in this mode), we already accept that D-Links allow to inherit powers from other characters, so this is more of a sort of supportive evidence than the main argument TBH.

Yeah, Extrasensory Perception may be better then.

Well, one thing is that they're omitted for narrative purposes, another is that there's no way to claim they ate at all without making considerable assumptions, especially when there's the direct implication they didn't (At least in Pride Lands). At worst it'd be a notable stamina feat in some way.

Both, they can prevent it from triggering and can heal it as well. Megalixirs also do the same (As they're just Elixirs but with usage for the whole party), while we're on that. I'd also say that the Kupo Coin can also ignore the status effect given how there's the whole mechanic of Yozora reviving with it if he manages to steal it, implying that it was a part of the fight.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

How would we treat the limited Regeneration Negation in regards to Dream Eaters whose physiology page also lists Regeneration?

 

[Arceus0x]

every damn JRPG is 2-C/2-B/2-A at this point

 

[DBZMLP12345]

If KH Top Tiers get upgraded to 2-A, they’d be on the same tier as the Dissidia Versions of the Final Fantasy Characters, although probably still way weaker then them in terms of AP since the Dissidia key’s are all At Least 2-A

 

[Bobsican]

If KH Top Tiers get upgraded to 2-A, they’d be on the same tier as the Dissidia Versions of the Final Fantasy Characters, although probably still way weaker then them in terms of AP since the Dissidia key’s are all At Least 2-A

I've talked to the FF folks, "At least" here comes from a misuse out of simply scaling above another 2-A, rather than there being a possibility for tier 1, at least with what's currently on the pages.

Anyways, for the Dream Eater part, given the lore revelations in UX over them, perhaps that should be removed (something something Chirithy and Strelitzia being obliterated by Darkness).

 

[Nehz_XZX]

Anyways, for the Dream Eater part, given the lore revelations in UX over them, perhaps that should be removed (something something Chirithy and Strelitzia being obliterated by Darkness).

If I recall correctly, Chirithy are bound to their respective Keyblade Wielder, so just Strelitzia would need to be obliterated for her Chirithy to be obliterated as well. Heartless also come back due to the existence of darkness and I believe that this was extended to Dream Eaters due to them being the manifestation of darkness in the Realm of Sleep. We also need to consider the differences between Pureblood Heartless and Emblem Heartless since the former occur naturally in the Realm of Darkness even before they were unleashed in the Realm of Light and only the latter release visible hearts after being defeated. There is also how the Heartless in the Datascape from Re:Coded didn't actually release hearts but instead released their intentions as dark data which nobody noticed until Sora's Heartless showed up.

 

[Bobsican]

In that case it could be said that the regen negation isn't limited to just stuff bound to a heart, but to also beings of darkness too.

Thing is that Pureblood Heartless are bound to the heart of someone, while Emblem Heartless have the respective heart within them. So I think the former would have regeneration not unlike Unversed on that regard.

The Datascape Heartless in themselves are quite special as hearts aren't exactly a thing in a Datascape normally and all, but considering they aren't bound to any heart to begin with, yeah, they wouldn't have that. Perhaps we could add a note over this detail.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

In that case it could be said that the regen negation isn't limited to just stuff bound to a heart, but to also beings of darkness too.

Thing is that Pureblood Heartless are bound to the heart of someone, while Emblem Heartless have the respective heart within them. So I think the former would have regeneration not unlike Unversed on that regard.

The Datascape Heartless in themselves are quite special as hearts aren't exactly a thing in a Datascape normally and all, but considering they aren't bound to any heart to begin with, yeah, they wouldn't have that. Perhaps we could add a note over this detail.

I guess you can view it like that.

Wasn't there the implication that Heartless will exist as long as darkness exists in the hearts of people? I'd also like to reiterate my previous point that Pureblood Heartless existed before the experiments of Ansem's disciples and their invasion of the Realm of Light, so if they are exclusively hearts that fell into darkness, then they would have all needed to come from the times of Kingdom Hearts X and Dark Road.

Wouldn't it still be part of Jiminy's journal that Heartless can regenerate? You also have to consider that absolutely nobody noticed the difference even though there is Data-Riku who should know about these things and would easily be able to see if the Heartless in the Datascape lack Regeneration for some reason.