Kamen Rider Revision: No More 2-A Edition

[Jamesthetaker]

Actually, i don't see any different about it, all you want to proof is a fuse with multiverse and transcend it without anything relate to uncountable infinitely superior

My argument is that he become one with all of existence at first then he transcend spacetime, which going by usage of the word previously, would be a higher level of reality. He isn't bound by the world like before, but rather integrate it inside his own realm.

That thread was about the supposedly Low 1-C statement actually exist or not, which many people claim there isn't. If you were to disagree with my point then try to debunk it instead, bringing another verse in won't do because of different cosmology.

 

[Jamesthetaker]

Bump.

 

[Jamesthetaker]

To sum up my all previous points:

- Kugai Kudo (Saver), while is still weakened and incomplete, was able to see entire creation at once and become one with the world. He aim to freed humanity from suffering by making them go through same process as him, and to do that he has created Saver System. Various statements also claimed that he has become a higher dimensional being, so he is 4-D (Low 2-C) at this point.

Spoiler: Statements

“That’s wrong, the experiment was not a failure. When I was the test subject of the experiment, my flesh was extinguished, but my existence has evolved to a higher dimensional one. Sengoku Ryouma shouldn’t have threw away his original theory !!”

“In the experiment of activating the Sengoku Driver, the thing you uses to harness the power of Helheim… Is called Lockseed right ? So that is Sengoku Ryouma’s approach to recreates a pseudo Gold Fruit. As the result, you have died as a human, but your existence
Has ascended to a higher dimension, like the Woman of Beginning. Interesting, so after all you are just Kougane to the humans.”

Spoiler: Become one with the world

“
The Zakuro lockseeds in the hand of the cultists that gathered in the surge tank are noticeably shine red and letting out an intense light.
Right at this moment, their minds are merged into one throught the Zakuro Lockseeds.
They are sharing the world that Kudo Kugai sees.
They become Kudo Kugai, and then they become the world itself.
They has stepped into the territory of omniscient and omnipotent
”

- In the first activation, Saver System successfully make everyone in Zawame city become higher dimensional but Armored Riders can resist it thank to their Sengoku Driver. After that, he eventually created the fake Golden Fruit then gained immense power as a result. He is said to transcended space-time, reaching a level beyond that his previous self couldn't. In other word, he has transcended 4-D reality, so therefore 5-D (Low 1-C).

Spoiler: Transcendence

“
That man surely has transcended life and death.
He has been released from the shackles of fleshes, and intergrated with the three thousand realms.
He has transcended time, and transcended space----But that is also mean the man has no future at all.
”

Spoiler: Kugai Kudo World

“
But now, the driver doesn’t has any uses to him. Because this very world is created by Kugai. How are they going to defeat an incorporal evil spirit who just became one with the world ?
”

The statement here doesn't contradicting the transcendence of Kugai because as earlier statement point out, it already happened to his weaker self (4-D being). This could be interpreted as he has taken all of existence inside his own realm hence why the final battle happened there.

If that isn't sufficient enough, throughout the novel, the term "transcend" is being used in conjunction with "higher dimension" consistantly point out that it usually mean reaching a higher level of existence, or being dimensionality superior than before.

Some statement for pre-Golden Fruit Kugai:

Spoiler: Spoiler

Although there is no way to tell whether that is correct or not. This man’s true form is something that transcended the human’s intelligence. Perhaps, humanity cant even comprehend him at all. Even Kugai, who have transcended humanity.
”

Spoiler: Spoiler

But I, we, the humanity has conquered it. We are releashed from the prison of flesh, our spirits are transcended, and become one with the 3 thousand worlds
”

Both quotes claim he has transcended human/3-D being, and become one with existence (4-D). Therefore, when it come to "transcend space-time" after Kugai got the Golden Fruit, the usage of these word aren't change and would mean that he now exist on a higher level of reality than before (5-D).

Once again, compiling my arguments so everyone could keep up with my idea:

- Pre-Golden Fruit is 4-D because of transcending humanity, entering higher dimension, and become one with all existence.

- Post-Golden Fruit is 5-D because of transcending spacetime, using the same wording as previously to indicate his transcendence to higher level of existence.

And yes, i'm pushing these further because i won't let it go out without an proper conclusion. I could settle with a Possibly but i want to hear others opinion on this first.

 

[Jamesthetaker]

Bump.

 

[Tripleaccel555]

Did any legend rider such like Agito , Ryuki and the others scaled to this ?

 

[Jamesthetaker]

Did any legend rider such like Agito , Ryuki and the others scaled to this ?

Possibly, but i will figure the scaling chain for another revision because i don't want to derail the thread now.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

I thought i have explain this part above.

Kugai become one with all existence happened pre-Golden Fruit, which in conjunction with higher dimension statement in early novel would be Low 2-C at minimum.

After he got Golden Fruit, transcend space-time happened which indicated his superior over 4-D space compared to his previous self. Along with that, later claimed that he has taken all of existence inside his own realm rather becoming one with it. It is why i give Omnipresence

The statement that is being pushed as evidence for Low 1-C also places emphasis on how he became one with the three-thousand worlds, which, going by the other excerpts you posted, is something he had already accomplished before the Golden Fruit. "He has transcended time, and transcended space" seems to be a description of what happened to his existence as a consequence of that, much like "That man surely has transcended life and death.." It doesn't seem to be stating that it's something he didn't attain before and only achieved with the Golden Fruit, just a general description of what his apotheosis granted him.

Nevermind the fact "transcend" just means "to surpass," or "to go beyond," which is a definition that still accomodates both for what I said above and for how the novel seems to use the word. More evidence is needed to show it indeed refers to a dimensional and/or qualitative superiority over spacetime.

 

[Elizhaa]

The transcendence statements seem more like Omnipresence in those worlds as mentioned by other like Ultima ealier. So, I think Low 1-C is not valid, from the points above.

 

[MagiSinbad]

The transcendence statements seem more like Omnipresence in those worlds as mentioned by other like Ultima ealier. So, I think Low 1-C is not valid, from the points above.

You got it wrong. The transcendence came from when Kugai died in the experience (the first transcendence) and when he attained a pseudo Golden Fruit (the second transcendence).

Kugai's "omniprescene" came from him using the Saver System (a machine) to intergrates all creations into himself.

 

[Delta333]

Disagree because even if transcendence here is not omnipresence, there is still nothing to truly prove that transcendence here means qualitative superiority

 

[Maskofthedragon]

Doubling down isn't going to do anything.

 

[Jamesthetaker]

The statement that is being pushed as evidence for Low 1-C also places emphasis on how he became one with the three-thousand worlds, which, going by the other excerpts you posted, is something he had already accomplished before the Golden Fruit. "He has transcended time, and transcended space" seems to be a description of what happened to his existence as a consequence of that, much like "That man surely has transcended life and death.." It doesn't seem to be stating that it's something he didn't attain before and only achieved with the Golden Fruit, just a general description of what his apotheosis granted him.

Nevermind the fact "transcend" just means "to surpass," or "to go beyond," which is a definition that still accomodates both for what I said above and for how the novel seems to use the word. More evidence is needed to show it indeed refers to a dimensional and/or qualitative superiority over spacetime.

The transcendence statements seem more like Omnipresence in those worlds as mentioned by other like Ultima ealier. So, I think Low 1-C is not valid, from the points above.

Well, it is seem like Low 1-C have been rejected so i'm not gonna push it further because this is all i have for now. Instead, i will promote a more reasonable option:

Spoiler: 142-144

“
Endlessly expanding countless worlds. Each of them shine with their own histories. Countless stories, countless worlds, and countless malice, hostilities.
”

Low 1-C would get changed to 2-B via these statement as they mentioned countless worlds expanding endlessly. Also, here is the abilities they would get:

• Immortality (Type 4 and 5; Scaling to Kamen Rider Saver, who are said to transcended life and death. Saver keep resurrecting even after killed by Armored Riders for an uncountable number of times)
• Fusionism: (Scaling to Kamen Rider Saver, who integrated all of existence into himself)
• Omnipresence: (He has become one with all of existence)
• Higher-Dimensional Existence and Non-Corporeal: (Saver System brought one's spirit into higher dimension while their body got extinguished)
• Non-Physical Interaction: (Can interacted with incorporeal beings)
• Cosmic Awareness: (Through enlightenment by Saver System, one would able to perceive all existence of three thousand worlds at once)
• Nigh-Omniscience: (The people of Zawame city, after being enlightened by Saver System, are said to achieved omniscience)
• Possible Acausality (Type 2: It was stated that he possessed no future due to transcending space-time)

According to Magi, the word 精神 could be both "spirit" and "mind" so i think it's safe to uses both:

• Resistance to Soul Manipulation & Mind Manipulation (Sengoku Driver offer protection against Saver System which brought entire Zawame's citizens spirit/mind to higher dimension while leaving behind their body. Even after Saver successfully bypass their resistance, Armored Riders were still able to maintain their ego to not melted with rest of the world)

The characters who would scales to this are:

• Kouta Kazuraba's last key got upgrade to 2-B, Zangetsu and Ryugen get a 2-B key.
• Megahex scales above 2-B due to being shown stronger than Kouta then absorbed the Golden Fruit for himself later.
• Kamen Rider Decade Complete 21 Form: He will get an straight 2-B rating rather than 2-C, possibly 2-B.

Everyone who has previously agreed with Low 1-C please give your opinion again as it have been rejected.

 

[Vietthai96]

About acausality, i think it is type 2 not type 4. Type 4 require you to be operated under different causality system, not because you have no future

 

[Delta333]

Should be limited type 2 if he still has the past

 

[Jamesthetaker]

Should be limited type 2 if he still has the past

The context is kinda vague tbh. It also coincide with transcending spacetime stuff which mean past/future mean little for him. That's why i listed as Possibly.

 

[MagiSinbad]

I have change Resistance to Mind Manipulation to Soul Manipulation because the novel used the word "spirit" rather than "mind".

well, the novel actually used the word 精神 (mind; spirit; soul; heart; ethos) which could mean both Spirit and Mind.

 

[Jamesthetaker]

well, the novel actually used the word 精神 (mind; spirit; soul; heart; ethos) which could mean both Spirit and Mind.

I see, how about Resistance to Soul Manipulation/Mind Manipulation (Sengoku Driver offer protection against Saver System which brought entire Zawame's citizens spirit/mind to higher dimension while leaving behind their body. Even after Saver successfully bypass their resistance, Armored Riders were still able to maintain their ego to not melted with rest of the world)

 

[Vietthai96]

I see, how about Resistance to Soul Manipulation/Mind Manipulation (Sengoku Driver offer protection against Saver System which brought entire Zawame's citizens spirit/mind to higher dimension while leaving behind their body. Even after Saver successfully bypass their resistance, Armored Riders were still able to maintain their ego to not melted with rest of the world)

Resistance to Soul Manipulation & Mind Manipulation, but i think you should link the scan when this thing get into the profile

 

[Jamesthetaker]

Wait, i've completely forgot this but Gaim was able to kill Kugai who is immortal for reason above:

Spoiler

The skeleton dinosaur jumps up, trying to trample and crush the silver warrior with its overwhelmingly humongous body, shatters the ground into crater with it's landing shockwave.
However, there is no presence of the silver warrior under him.
Saver, who is buried under skeletons, looking up at above of his head. He found in the sky of this sunless world, there’s appears a mass of energy shining in orange color. It’s shine brilliant like the morning’s light that illuminates the darkness.

[Kiwami Squash !]

The kick of the white silver warrior donning in orange aura pierces through the skeleton dinosaur.
The golden shining explosion envelopes the skeleton dinosaur, Saver. Return the dead back to ashes and dusts.

Therefore, he should get Immortality Negation (Type 4 and 5; Killed Kamen Rider Saver who is said to transcended life and death and revived for countless times)

 

[Vietthai96]

Wait, i've completely forgot this but Gaim was able to kill Kugai who is immortal for reason above:

Spoiler

The skeleton dinosaur jumps up, trying to trample and crush the silver warrior with its overwhelmingly humongous body, shatters the ground into crater with it's landing shockwave.
However, there is no presence of the silver warrior under him.
Saver, who is buried under skeletons, looking up at above of his head. He found in the sky of this sunless world, there’s appears a mass of energy shining in orange color. It’s shine brilliant like the morning’s light that illuminates the darkness.

[Kiwami Squash !]

The kick of the white silver warrior donning in orange aura pierces through the skeleton dinosaur.
The golden shining explosion envelopes the skeleton dinosaur, Saver. Return the dead back to ashes and dusts.

Therefore, he should get Immortality Negation (Type 4 and 5; Killed Kamen Rider Saver who is said to transcended life and death and revived for countless times)

Sound oke to me

 

[Rabbit2002]

• Megahex scales above 2-B due to being shown stronger than Kouta then absorbed the Golden Fruit for himself later.

How about Megahex vs Golden Meta Cooler (SDBH)? I mean they share so many similarities like living technological Planets, Planet-devourers, bunch of clones, stomp main character,... With that CRT and dbh downgrade, AP isn't issue lol

 

[Vietthai96]

2-B Kamen Rider Ryuki seem more interesting

 

[Rabbit2002]

2-B Kamen Rider Ryuki seem more interesting

it should be 2A because there are infinite^infinite mirror worlds, each its own universe

 

[Vietthai96]

it should be 2A because there are infinite^infinite mirror worlds, each its own universe

Well, infinite^infinite mean you not 2-A anymore, but Low 1-C

 

[Jamesthetaker]

Bump.

 

[Rabbit2002]

Sorry for derailing but anyone wanna Join?

 

[Jamesthetaker]

Updated the OP so everyone won't have to read through entire thread.

 

[Nicetoderp]

Agree with the op

 

[MagiSinbad]

Argreed with the OP, although i think we should describes the AP as "destroyed Kamen Rider Saver countless times, who has became one with all creation/three thousand realm" for Gaim riders that fought Saver endlessly in his realm.

 

[Jamesthetaker]

Argreed with the OP, although i think we should describes the AP as "destroyed Kamen Rider Saver countless times, who has became one with all creation/three thousand realm" for Gaim riders that fought Saver endlessly in his realm.

I will take note of it.

 

[Vietthai96]

Disagree because James is my best buddy

 

[Jamesthetaker]

Bump.

 

[Lonkitt]

I don’t agree with Low 1-C for Kamen Rider, but if somebody can update me on what’s being proposed now and how, I can comment on it

 

[Maskofthedragon]

I'm neutral, since I can't read the novel itself front to back

 

[MagiSinbad]

I don’t agree with Low 1-C for Kamen Rider, but if somebody can update me on what’s being proposed now and how, I can comment on it

Low 1-C tier is rejected, now the thread tis aiming to upgrade Gaim cast to 2-B due to Saver intergrated 3 thousand realms (Buddhism for "All Creation" ) which refer to countless universes.

Gaim cast (Ryugen Zangetsu, ect) fought Saver in his world (the worlds that he intergrated into) and has destroyed Saver for countless times (they were unable to destroyed him permanently), while Gaim one shotted (rider kick) Saver's final form (skeleton dinosaur).

 

[Lonkitt]

Wait, I don't understand, what's the Buddhism term being used here?

 

[MagiSinbad]

Wait, I don't understand, what's the Buddhism term being used here?

3 thousand realms.
Which refer to "all creation" in Buddhism cosmology. But nevermind that, whenever the "3 thousand realms" was brought up, it's alway refer to countless universes. When Saver experiences the entire countless multiverse in a single moment, the narrator refer him as "flowing throught 3 thousand realms"

 

[Lonkitt]

I'm a little unclear as to why we're considering Buddhism Cosmology for the revision. Unless the novel makes a clear connection to that, I don't see why its being brought up

 

[MagiSinbad]

I'm a little unclear as to why we're considering Buddhism Cosmology for the revision. Unless the novel makes a clear connection to that, I don't see why its being brought up

Just in case people misunderstood that 3 thousand realms here are actually just 3 thousand universes.

The narrator (and sometime, characters like Saver as well) repeatedly mentions three thousand realms whenever refer to all creations. And "all creations" here include the "countless worlds"

Spoiler: Mitsuzane's vision

He is being flowed throughs three thousand worlds, while desperately trying to hold on his individuality
Endlessly expanding countless worlds. Each of them shine with their own histories.
Countless stories, countless worlds, and countless malice, hostilitie s.

 

[Jamesthetaker]

I'm a little unclear as to why we're considering Buddhism Cosmology for the revision. Unless the novel makes a clear connection to that, I don't see why its being brought up

Pretty much what Magi said above, i would like add-on the reason why buddhism is brought into this. Throughout the series, Gaim have made countless reference to philosophy stuff from both Western and East sides, such as the Golden Fruit and the snake who manipulated Adam & Eva to eat it, Helheim, etc.

All of this was due to Gen Urobuchi who wrote for pretty much entire Gaim series. While the novel were written by someone else, Gen did supervised it. More so, the goal of the villain was to brought salvation to humanity which coincide with the main theme of Gaim.