Jamesthetaker
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Yes, that was I've talking about. The Kugai guy is already 4-D via being a higher dimensional being. Then he got a golden apple to become much stronger, "transcend space-time" come after that.
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Kamen Rider Revision: No More 2-A Edition
- Thread starter Jamesthetaker
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What James mean is : there are 2 different time periods for Kugai's transcendence.
+The first one is when he died in the experiment and ascended to become a higher dimensional being. (the statement of transcending space-time havent come yet)
+The second one is when he attained the pseudo Golden Fruit, which after that the transcending space-time statement come in.
Jamesthetaker
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- His weaker self is 4-D because of higher dimension.
- He eat the fake Golden Fruit then the "transcend space-time" come after.
The page number were listed in order so everyone could get the timeline of event.
Rabbit2002
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The problem is that 4D doesn't automatically low-2C, unless you have universe size or more, it's just Unknown. And even if it's 4D, it doesn't automatically transcend spacetime (this is normal even transcend things is just flowery for something). And transcending spacetime in context is simply Acausality type 2 (or 4) and becomes one with all spacetime not exist in higher layer than multiverse itself, it doesn't have to be 5D (aka 1 more dimension than before/4D). Not to mention, as Vietthai said, what does the higher dimension mean here? If it is not Higher spatial/temporal dimension or layers of reality with fictitious and real differences between any two (or at very least qualitative superior than multiverse) then they are nothing more than flowery language/metaphor for higher beings . Like Urdak's case in Doom (heck it was even more obvious low-1C than this but it didn't)
I only see it is 2B or 2A at best, not Low-1C
I only see it is 2B or 2A at best, not Low-1C
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I am deleting all detailing messages from now on. Its an important revision, focus on that
Rabbit2002
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I also doubt Ohma Zio or decade scale to these. Both were erased from existence in the series for various reasons, with Ohma due to Hiryuu/Another ohma (in tv series and stage) and decade due to being defeated by ohma. Both have no effect on the multiverse, not only that when Kouta (Man of beginning) is erased in Zio and countless other things. All of this has no effect on the multiverse except for time paradoxes. I can agree we can scale them to AP, but not physiology (aka immersuable speed, one with multiverse/omnipresent,Non-Corporeal) unless you argue the multiverse is destroyed and recreated in a way passive almost all the time
At very best they just granted active abilities to become/fusion with Multiverse, not multiverse itself all the time
At very best they just granted active abilities to become/fusion with Multiverse, not multiverse itself all the time
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^I think answering these would lead to derailing the thread, so it's best to not do it here.
Since it would lead to arguing about Decade and Zi-O instead, this thread is for Gaim.
Since it would lead to arguing about Decade and Zi-O instead, this thread is for Gaim.
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Jamesthetaker
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Firstly, Kugai were literally said to be higher dimension in nature and this alone would grant him being 4-D at least. Not much is need to say here since it was restated few times already. We didn't known the exact strength of his, but again him seeing all creation at once + being a higher existence have already proven itself.
Secondly, i have gone through several Tier 1 thread, including the Tiering QnA page, and it was confirmed that transcending space-time can be Low 1-C with context. Seeing lower layer as fictional or smaller is a solid to Low 1-C, yes, Kugai did not have any statement like that beyond "transcend space-time". However, as i've explained in my previous post, the statement come after a tremendous power boost when he got Golden Fruit. Transcend mean go beyond or past limit which is what exactly happened to Kugai now, since he is no longer bounded by space nor time. Him integrated with the world isn't a contradiction to the statement either as it would strengthen my point that Kugai getting stronger so all existence is just a part of him now.
Thirdly, i personally do not like flowery language because of obvious reason, but i also don't want to dismiss something was written in poem style as flowery/metaphor either. Throughout of the novel, most of the statements are line up with what they have shown, like when Kugai/Mitsuzane seeing all creation at once; they're portrayed consistently without nothing to contradict them.
I'm not sure how much have you watched Kamen Rider but as someone who have been in the franchise for very long time, most your ideas here are misconception. Ohma Zi-O was never erased from existence, the only time it happened he come back less then 5 minutes. Decade being defeated by Ohma is no surprise considering that latter are borderline godlike being who has all Riders power in existence. Kouta were erased by Anotherwatch, yeah that did happening, but those watches shown power beyond normal time paradoxes can do, like its literally can affect Type 2/4 acausality but we won't discuss that here.
Decade Complete 21 is him having all power of Heisei Riders at their strongest, including Grand Zi-O who pretty much has the same thing. Ohma Zi-O being composite Riders in-verse mean he should has everything Gaim has.
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Rabbit2002
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4D or even infinite-D has no meaning in tiering system, what matters is "size". And if the "higher dimension" thing is not inherently associated with "transcend space-time" but by something else and before. This is not even enough for Low-1C than Gow's Yggdrasil , it was downgraded to 2B/2A because transcend spacetime is no longer sufficient for low-1C.
And if I'm not mistaken, the only thing that supports low-1C is transcend space-time, so it's definitely not low-1C because they don't meet anymore, as the GOW link I gave said. Only "transcend" thing in context is Higher level/layer of reality exist above multiverse, but in context you prove, it just become one with all of existence which is 4D and acasality (limited type 2). "Become one" and "Part of" are wildly different, the former implies they are all the same thing, the latter clearly not. Has anyone said your hair is one with you. Unless the context implies otherwise, this one doesn't.
Vietthai96
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Wait....what, how transcend spacetime is not Low 1-C but transcend space-time supporting Low 1-C. I'm confused
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I think i have addressed above that Saver's transcendence and him become one with the world is 2 different thing.
Saver transcendence is because he died in the experiment and him attained the artificial golden fruit.
The become one with the world is done throught the Saver System, a machine that convert peoples on global scale (or was it just Zawame city ? ) into higher dimensional energy and merge them with Kugai
Rabbit2002
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sorry for confusion, the latter is about the only argument the KR supporter has for Low-1C upgrade
Rabbit2002
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I'm confused but anyway, this isn't enough for Low-1C
Rabbit2002
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Vietthai96
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Actually, you can "transcended" into a "higher dimension" many time you want, but without an established a higher order of hierarchical dimension, you still stay the same in the same tier
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I just want to pointed out the misconception.
Regarding the Low 1-C tier, well, there is no statement about hierarchial dimensions that i can find. So i will leave the arguing part for James.
That said, what do you think about the abilities? Are they fine to add?
Vietthai96
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1. Oke, it is fine, i also just explain regarding the whole shit about transcended.
2. Well aside from Higher Dimensional Existence which i don't know the context behind, the rest seem fine
Jamesthetaker
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I have read that thread before and my reason for Low 1-C is different from GoW.
“That’s wrong, the experiment was not a failure. When I was the test subject of the experiment, my flesh was extinguished, but my existence has evolved to a higher dimensional one. Sengoku Ryouma shouldn’t have threw away his original theory !!”
“In the experiment of activating the Sengoku Driver, the thing you uses to harness the power of Helheim… Is called Lockseed right ? So that is Sengoku Ryouma’s approach to recreates a pseudo Gold Fruit. As the result, you have died as a human, but your existence
Has ascended to a higher dimension, like the Woman of Beginning. Interesting, so after all you are just Kougane to the humans.”
“In the experiment of activating the Sengoku Driver, the thing you uses to harness the power of Helheim… Is called Lockseed right ? So that is Sengoku Ryouma’s approach to recreates a pseudo Gold Fruit. As the result, you have died as a human, but your existence
Has ascended to a higher dimension, like the Woman of Beginning. Interesting, so after all you are just Kougane to the humans.”
These statement claim that he is a higher dimensional being and are above human/3-D creature, so by default, he is 4-D without doubt. At his weakest, Kugai is possibly Low 2-C but we will leave it here.
Once again, Saver merging will all existence won't discard the transcendence. First of all, his intention to fused with the world is because he want to make everyone going through same process as him, in order to do that he need Saver System which he actually done it in page 115-120. At this point, he still doesn't have the Golden Fruit yet btw. There are still Armored Riders who keep resisting him, until eventually he gained the Fruit then rest is history.
My point here is that him becoming with all existence hardly contribute to most of his power, mainly just for the ideal of freed humanity from suffering. The real point here is when gaining Golden Fruit, he transcending his previous self who is still bound by space-time and reality, therefore Low 1-C.
Jamesthetaker
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To further concrete one of my arguments that: "Kugai become higher dimension is 4-D", here is the statement from page 115-120.
This is when Saver System make everyone into higher dimensional, and Kugai still don't have the Golden Fruit yet. The statement claimed that those people become one with the world so Low 2-C at minimum. I could argue for higher tier but that isn't the point, what matter is that imperfect Kugai is blatantly 4-D.
“
The Zakuro lockseeds in the hand of the cultists that gathered in the surge tank are noticeably shine red and letting out an intense light.
Right at this moment, their minds are merged into one throught the Zakuro Lockseeds.
They are sharing the world that Kudo Kugai sees.
They become Kudo Kugai, and then they become the world itself.
They has stepped into the territory of omniscient and omnipotent
”
The Zakuro lockseeds in the hand of the cultists that gathered in the surge tank are noticeably shine red and letting out an intense light.
Right at this moment, their minds are merged into one throught the Zakuro Lockseeds.
They are sharing the world that Kudo Kugai sees.
They become Kudo Kugai, and then they become the world itself.
They has stepped into the territory of omniscient and omnipotent
”
This is when Saver System make everyone into higher dimensional, and Kugai still don't have the Golden Fruit yet. The statement claimed that those people become one with the world so Low 2-C at minimum. I could argue for higher tier but that isn't the point, what matter is that imperfect Kugai is blatantly 4-D.
Jamesthetaker
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To sum up my all previous points:
- Kugai Kudo (Saver), while is still weakened and incomplete, was able to see entire creation at once and become one with the world. He aim to freed humanity from suffering by making them go through same process as him, and to do that he has created Saver System. Various statements also claimed that he has become a higher dimensional being, so he is 4-D (Low 2-C) at this point.
- In the first activation, Saver System successfully make everyone in Zawame city become higher dimensional but Armored Riders can resist it thank to their Sengoku Driver. After that, he eventually created the fake Golden Fruit then gained immense power as a result. He is said to transcended space-time, reaching a level beyond that his previous self couldn't. In other word, he has transcended 4-D reality, so therefore 5-D (Low 1-C).
The statement here doesn't contradicting the transcendence of Kugai, because as earlier statement point out, it already happened to his weaker self (4-D being). This could be interpreted as he has taken all existence inside his own realm hence why the final battle happened there.
This is all of my argument for the tier upgrade, abilities seem to accepted by most people so i won't repeat it here. Admittedly, this was mostly my fault to blame for because i don't explicitly explain it so people ended up being confused about Low 1-C part. I want the mod to understand this clearly so it wouldn't result in a misunderstand.
- Kugai Kudo (Saver), while is still weakened and incomplete, was able to see entire creation at once and become one with the world. He aim to freed humanity from suffering by making them go through same process as him, and to do that he has created Saver System. Various statements also claimed that he has become a higher dimensional being, so he is 4-D (Low 2-C) at this point.
“That’s wrong, the experiment was not a failure. When I was the test subject of the experiment, my flesh was extinguished, but my existence has evolved to a higher dimensional one. Sengoku Ryouma shouldn’t have threw away his original theory !!”
“In the experiment of activating the Sengoku Driver, the thing you uses to harness the power of Helheim… Is called Lockseed right ? So that is Sengoku Ryouma’s approach to recreates a pseudo Gold Fruit. As the result, you have died as a human, but your existence
Has ascended to a higher dimension, like the Woman of Beginning. Interesting, so after all you are just Kougane to the humans.”
“In the experiment of activating the Sengoku Driver, the thing you uses to harness the power of Helheim… Is called Lockseed right ? So that is Sengoku Ryouma’s approach to recreates a pseudo Gold Fruit. As the result, you have died as a human, but your existence
Has ascended to a higher dimension, like the Woman of Beginning. Interesting, so after all you are just Kougane to the humans.”
“
The Zakuro lockseeds in the hand of the cultists that gathered in the surge tank are noticeably shine red and letting out an intense light.
Right at this moment, their minds are merged into one throught the Zakuro Lockseeds.
They are sharing the world that Kudo Kugai sees.
They become Kudo Kugai, and then they become the world itself.
They has stepped into the territory of omniscient and omnipotent
”
The Zakuro lockseeds in the hand of the cultists that gathered in the surge tank are noticeably shine red and letting out an intense light.
Right at this moment, their minds are merged into one throught the Zakuro Lockseeds.
They are sharing the world that Kudo Kugai sees.
They become Kudo Kugai, and then they become the world itself.
They has stepped into the territory of omniscient and omnipotent
”
- In the first activation, Saver System successfully make everyone in Zawame city become higher dimensional but Armored Riders can resist it thank to their Sengoku Driver. After that, he eventually created the fake Golden Fruit then gained immense power as a result. He is said to transcended space-time, reaching a level beyond that his previous self couldn't. In other word, he has transcended 4-D reality, so therefore 5-D (Low 1-C).
“
That man surely has transcended life and death.
He has been released from the shackles of fleshes, and intergrated with the three thousand realms.
He has transcended time, and transcended space----But that is also mean the man has no future at all.
”
That man surely has transcended life and death.
He has been released from the shackles of fleshes, and intergrated with the three thousand realms.
He has transcended time, and transcended space----But that is also mean the man has no future at all.
”
“
But now, the driver doesn’t has any uses to him. Because this very world is created by Kugai. How are they going to defeat an incorporal evil spirit who just became one with the world ?
”
But now, the driver doesn’t has any uses to him. Because this very world is created by Kugai. How are they going to defeat an incorporal evil spirit who just became one with the world ?
”
The statement here doesn't contradicting the transcendence of Kugai, because as earlier statement point out, it already happened to his weaker self (4-D being). This could be interpreted as he has taken all existence inside his own realm hence why the final battle happened there.
This is all of my argument for the tier upgrade, abilities seem to accepted by most people so i won't repeat it here. Admittedly, this was mostly my fault to blame for because i don't explicitly explain it so people ended up being confused about Low 1-C part. I want the mod to understand this clearly so it wouldn't result in a misunderstand.
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Even if this got accepted, it’s Possibly at best. The main problem is that the verse doesn’t any statement or showing that the higher dimension sees lower ones as infinitely inferior. I do get that “transcended times and space” here was used in context of a power boost and it showed that Saver was no longer bound by time-space itself. But since we don’t know if being higher than that means infinitely powerful than before, he can just simply be a higher 2-B than the multiverse. I really want the verse to move to 1-C so we don’t need to see the image of Ohma followed by a wall of text trying to prove that the multiverse is 2-A, but I can see why the mods would reject it.
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祝え！時空を超え、過去と未来をしめす究極の時の王者、その名もオーマジオウ！歴史の最終章へたどり着いた瞬間である！
祝え！全ライダーの力を受け継ぎ、時空を超え、過去と未来をしろしめす時の王者。その名も仮面ライダージオウ、まさに生誕の瞬間である
“Celebrate! The ultimate king of time, who transcends time and space, who shows the past and the future, his name is Omajiou! This is the moment when we reach the final chapter of history!”
“Celebrate! The king of time, who inherits the power of all Riders, transcends time and space, and shows the past and future. His name is Kamen Rider Jio, and this is the moment of his birth!”
I’ve seen the line of Woz about Ohma being translated as “the king of time, who rules time and space…” in fansub but it seems to be “trandscends time and space (時空を超え)” instead. The line from episode guide says the same thing so the whole transcends time-space thing is consistent.
祝え！全ライダーの力を受け継ぎ、時空を超え、過去と未来をしろしめす時の王者。その名も仮面ライダージオウ、まさに生誕の瞬間である
“Celebrate! The ultimate king of time, who transcends time and space, who shows the past and the future, his name is Omajiou! This is the moment when we reach the final chapter of history!”
“Celebrate! The king of time, who inherits the power of all Riders, transcends time and space, and shows the past and future. His name is Kamen Rider Jio, and this is the moment of his birth!”
I’ve seen the line of Woz about Ohma being translated as “the king of time, who rules time and space…” in fansub but it seems to be “trandscends time and space (時空を超え)” instead. The line from episode guide says the same thing so the whole transcends time-space thing is consistent.
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Yeah, I don't really see Low 1-C here. Given the context is that they are becoming one with all of existence, it seems fairly clear that "transcended time, transcended space" refers to the fact they now exist throughout all of past, present and future, and so are not bound to any specific location or era. So, this would fall under the following note of the FAQ page:
Likewise, it's not exactly uncommon for time travel (Or any action / process that affects something through different points in time) to be described as "transcending time and space."
Likewise, it's not exactly uncommon for time travel (Or any action / process that affects something through different points in time) to be described as "transcending time and space."
Vietthai96
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What the hell, no 4D is Low 2-C to 2-A already (except some situation when it com to HDE only). But transcended space-time can't be the main evidences for Low 1-C
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How the hell is 4-D High 3-A? There's a reason why Low 2-C is where the 4-D hax happened and not High 3-A
Rabbit2002
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Being 4D only unknown lol, without any further context about its dimensionality and size
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World in this context is likely the same concept as other Kamen Rider universe who used World and universe interchangeably.
Jamesthetaker
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I thought i have explain this part above.
Kugai become one with all existence happened pre-Golden Fruit, which in conjunction with higher dimension statement in early novel would be Low 2-C at minimum.
After he got Golden Fruit, transcend space-time happened which indicated his superior over 4-D space compared to his previous self. Along with that, later claimed that he has taken all of existence inside his own realm rather becoming one with it. It is why i give Omnipresence inside his own realm but not outside of it.
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Jamesthetaker
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For real though, my summaries is right above there which explain the whole idea of entire thread, please do read it again because i don't want to repeat same thing once more.
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Oh, I didn't follow the revision, my bad.
Jamesthetaker
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If that isn't sufficient enough, throughout the novel, the term "transcend" is being used in conjunction with "higher dimension" consistantly point out that it usually mean reaching a higher level of existence, or being dimensionally superior than before.
Some statement for pre-Golden Fruit Kugai:
Although there is no way to tell whether that is correct or not. This man’s true form is something that transcended the human’s intelligence. Perhaps, humanity cant even comprehend him at all. Even Kugai, who have transcended humanity.
”
”
But I, we, the humanity has conquered it. We are releashed from the prison of flesh, our spirits are transcended, and become one with the 3 thousand worlds
”
”
Both quotes claim he has transcended human/3-D being, and become one with existence (4-D). Therefore, when it come to "transcend space-time" after Kugai got the Golden Fruit, the usage of these word aren't change and would mean that he now exist on a higher level of reality than before (5-D).
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Vietthai96
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let be clear, if there is no dimensional hierarchy, and the actual different between dimension, etc...you can transcended all you want, still can't get Low 1-C or higher
Jamesthetaker
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There isn't an established hierarchy for Kamen Rider, but there is a clear different between dimensionality here.
The term transcend here isn't a mundane word or metaphor, it is consistently used by character to indicate their level of existence.
When Kugai stated he transcended humanity and is a higher dimensional being, he clearly shown to be a 4-D existence. So when he's said to transcended space-time after become stronger, it mean he has ascended to higher level of reality than previous self couldn't.
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Rabbit2002
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Literally there are at least three characters who encompasses/contain the multiverse/All of space-time/all of existence while existing outside and transcending it and Space-time as a whole. All three are downgraded from low1c to 2A
Example:
Multiverse level+ (Transcends Space-Time itself, as well as the Olympians and the Titans, much like they transcend humans. Encompasses and transcends all Past and all Future of the Macrocosmos, i.e, exists beyond the entirety of the Multiverse
Example:
Multiverse level+ (Transcends Space-Time itself, as well as the Olympians and the Titans, much like they transcend humans. Encompasses and transcends all Past and all Future of the Macrocosmos, i.e, exists beyond the entirety of the Multiverse
Jamesthetaker
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I have read that thread once, the reason for it was because the information on his page are old/outdated and there is few supporters on SS who defend for it.
My reason for Low 1-C here is different, again.
Rabbit2002
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Actually, i don't see any difference about it, all you want to proof is to merge with the multiverse and transcend it without anything relate to uncountable infinitely superior
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