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Kama's stats and skills/Big Fate 3-A to Low 2-C Revision

This thread isn't about Bleach, so the antics of Bleach need not apply here.

Just to preface, decisions on unrelated threads don't act as a sort of "precedent" on this wiki. The only "precedent" we have are site rules and regulations, and terminology we define in various explanation threads. If one wants to set or argue for a "precedent", consult those pages.

I would still greatly prefer we discuss general Nasuverse cosmology before applying feats. I am sadly not knowledgeable nor do I claim to be knowledgeable on the verse (Barring Kara no Kyoukai, F/Zero, F/stay night, and FGO up to Goetia), hence why I'm only loosely participating here and not making any final calls.
 
I personally feel as though this is solid enough on it's own to warrant a rating, unless "universe" ends up not meaning what it instictively does, in which case distant screaming
 
There really has been no use of the word universe in the nasuverse to refer to anything besides universe

Even the conflicts over the word world don't really make sense since there is a pretty clear separation made between "The World" and the world
 
Hl3 or bust said:
unless "universe" ends up not meaning what it instictively does, in which case distant screaming
Click to expand...
That's kind of the issue here.

Paul Frank said:
There really has been no use of the word universe in the nasuverse to refer to anything besides universe
Click to expand...
There is a sizable number of people who disagree; who I think we should hear out before making sweeping decisions.
 
The people who are disagreeing are siding with Regis' interpretation of a single scan that Gin cleared up and debunked in the thread
 
No offence but, iirc, just about the only person who thought that universe =/= universe was Regis, who kept insisting that everything done and stated was metaphorical and conceptual with no eveidence for either
 
Regis' argument wasn't contingent on a single scan if I'm not mistaken. I believe he planned on posting more although the thread started going off rails before he could do so.
 
I'm absolutely sure that it is only happened once or twice. And in Kama's universe, there is atime when she said there are humans in the universe.

I'm pretty sure that'll finish in months. I was part of a larger scale cosmology blog before, that being Blazblue and while we're just scavenging feats, we couldn't make a blog that detailed without it. And that's just 4 games that are fully translated. Imagine how much time will take to get a cosmology from a franchise with many untranslated games, LN and VN, with many people worked in it. Do we want to wait that long and do we need to wait that long? Because I think not.
 
ShiroyashaGinSan said:
Do we want to wait that long and do we need to wait that long? Because I think not.
Click to expand...
I can assure you the mess that said blog will have to clean up will be far larger if we make a poor decision now than if we collect and evaluate sources prior to making largescale revisions to a verse.

A partial truth is no truth to begin with. We would be assuredly missing something with these revisions, which is in practice the same as inserting false information into a profile out of impatience for correct information.
 
What's the poor decision about upgrading the verse now than waiting for months for it to be finished? What's missing about my revision? Enough information to be confirmed as Universal? Already done. Enough people to agree with this revision? Already done. What's the missing information? What are the partial truths?

It's more of a poor decision that we wait for long time for something we agreed upon and something that can be added for any time just because a new information is coming out. And even if it may be another clean up when we get it, it's okay because it's supposed to clean all of the mistakes up, if it's wrong, make a revision, we do that for everything, what's the difference? If it was correct, hurray, we were right and we didn't waited for nothing. Honestly speaking, waiting is a waste of time. It does nothing, it changes nothing.
 
I agree with Gin.

There is nothing I know of in the verse that would suggest this is somehow only referring to something small like the planet instead of the actual universe like it states
 
i also provided supporting evidence using a different character and a different setting.. 2 of which are potential high 3-A feats one with "Infinite distance" directly stated, and another with a room being connected to the flow of time that has "No concept of limits'

I also provided supporting evidence of potential 3-A to low 2-c feats from CCC as well. with on of which explicitly states the words as exactly quoted "Our obversvable universe."
 
I have no problem with waiting for there to be the most accurate information on the profiles. I think that it is the most honest and practical way to go about the situation. The information presented here should be noted and used to potentially help with the information blog.

Everyone should have the opportunity to have their issues addressed, including Regis.

I guess what really needs to happen is we need to see how we can most efficiently go about doing the information blog so we can move forwards on other fronts.
 
ShiroyashaGinSan said:
What's the poor decision about upgrading the verse now than waiting for months for it to be finished?
Click to expand...
Ask the tortoise and the hair. It is better to wait for a thorough review of a verse than it is to rush forward changes based on extremely new materials.

ShiroyashaGinSan said:
What's missing about my revision? Enough information to be confirmed as Universal? Already done. Enough people to agree with this revision? Already done. What's the missing information? What are the partial truths?
Click to expand...
Contextualization. "One, three, five, and seven are prime numbers, ergo every odd number is also a prime number". We are using a limited pool of information to deduce vast consequences on the verse as a whole when consistency, terminology, and anti-feats need to be taken into consideration.

ShiroyashaGinSan said:
It's more of a poor decision that we wait for long time for something we agreed upon and something that can be added for any time just because a new information is coming out. And even if it may be another clean up when we get it, it's okay because it's supposed to clean all of the mistakes up, if it's wrong, make a revision, we do that for everything, what's the difference? If it was correct, hurray, we were right and we didn't waited for nothing. Honestly speaking, waiting is a waste of time. It does nothing, it changes nothing.
Click to expand...
You're speaking as if we'd be sitting on our hands and waiting for divine intervention to provide an in-depth analysis of the verse when in actuality the hard active work of our site's members in collaboration would come to a more developed conclusion to upgrades and ability additions.

I'm not a big fan of the philosophy of "it's alright to make a mess because we'll end up cleaning it later" because all that means is that in those months of work one would also have to deal with existing assumptions and debunk them summarily, which draws out time from putting forward and supporting claims.

If there is such an urgent need to put forward such changes perhaps some of that urgency would be well-placed in gathering experts and doing a thorough analysis, as opposed to repeatedly pushing forward a limited analysis.

To speak out of this line of discussion, though, I'm not going to single-handedly stall and filibuster this revision. If no one else thinks putting forward these changes outside of myself and Regis is a terrible idea, I'll allow it to begin implementation by the end of this weekend.
 
You don't need to examine everything in the verse to upgrade it. Even with a jump this high. Consistency, terminology and anti-feats on the verse this big isn't needed to make a revision. If there is enough straightforward information even if it may be limited, exist, it can be done. Plus contextualization? Didn't I told the context of this feat for who knows what times now?

I worked hard on blog and massive revision too before. I was working on some blog, some revision that is big, big enough to make a verse unheard of before by many to become popular. And I know that it is impractical to make an existing revision to be delayed to wait for your blog, because I am going to prove them right or wrong anyways and again, waiting means nothing, adding it is even good for me because the edits I do and the explanation I give will be lowered. It's beneficial to an extent even.

You can say it to every downgrade ever. The thing people accepted for months if not years will be wiped away in an instant, and the one who downgrade it needs to put a lot of thought and effort to debunking them. Also if you made a blog that basically says no-no, hardly anyone will challenge you, it's not that hard, it's easy even if you finished it and knew what you did.

There is no urgency, I just don't get the reason. So other people who are into Fate is going to bite their nails, waiting for something while they wait the revision they did, approved, just can't add it? It's very disheartening to say the least.
 
Completely disagree with having any changes now, personally. I agree with Dargoo and have never liked, nor will ever like, hat mentality of "we can fix a mess later".

It feels just... confusing and nonsensical for a big upgrade to be made on a series where we are trying to compile an extensive and well crafted cosmology exactly because of the issues we have with terms. Is like that being a thing was shot in the head and pulled under a rug to never exist for convenience.

This is the whole "Kiara's animations are literal" argument with more knowledgeable people like Ozy describing multiple times how statements clearly make it obvious Kiara's prowess has nothing to do with the physical but the illusory and her grandiose attacks are metaphorical and not literal... and then people that, I am sorry, literally don't know much about the series going "but animations!" to justify the upgrade.

Granted, if it's actually agreed add the changes if you want. I just find this entire thread utterly useless.
 
I understand the points of both side, and i will remain neutral on adding them now or later, as either option doesn't bother me.

I disagree with saying this thread is useless though. our findings likely, and hopefully, caught the attention of the cosmology blog team, and they will consider them amongst their other findings.

i think it is good to still have these threads as it brings new information they might not have considered before, be brought to their attention.

But, there is so far no counterarguements aganist the findings so far, and translations.
 
I do consider them useless as that information and the context surrounding the event and Kama's use of Universe and everything else that happened could have been used as material for the crafting of the cosmology blog, not for a hurried upgrade thread for a series we are explicitly making a cosmology blog for because we don't have streamlined standards for all the events and terms that were created over the years.
 
I do understand your point of a hurried upgrade,and wanting to wait. But did the cosmology team know of Kama's feat before hand, and the scans i shown of the Mooncell having infinite distance, and many solar systems inside of it? My point was these threads bring new information for them to look at, and use in the cosmology blog, and consider other arguements for both sides.

Though i think this might be derailing the topic, or clogging up this thread so i'll stop here if it is possible... I am sorry if i am poorly explaining my overall point... please forgive me..
 
How would Kama's universe fit in anyway? You guys are making a Cosmology and Terminology blog, not feat and scaling one. You know that feats doesn't come from Terminology or cosmology, and feats makes up the tier, not the latter. Unless it's a blog entirely dedicated solely to the feats, then it's not a cosmology blog.

Kama's universe doesn't fit in to anything. It's not connected to anything other than Indra which having a part in the blog all by his own sounds weird and unnecessary. She shouldn't have her own, either, her universe doesn't fit in to any cosmology because it isn't connected to any cosmology and isn't part of the system of Nasuverse. It's just "hey I made a universe" and that's it.
 
No need to apologise upgrade, you have done nothing wrong.

And you make literally no sense Shiro, as context is what entirely places the meaning of Universe either here or there. I don't care what Matt says, and I disagree with you since context seems to be lacking, so I can't take it at face value that this actually means universe just because it's saying universe. It's the very same issue going "Anti-Planet has Planet, so what do you know immaright?", or Large Planet Level Eresh for firing the concept of Venus.

And no, that's how you interpret it. So in the most simple of words, I don't agree with you until I can find more info about what happens during the event.
 
Dude, I would've said the same thing if I only saw one or two statements. But they've been saying it a universe for 13 or so times. Plus it looks like one. No concept, no anti, no bullshit. It's just connect the dots.
 
I don't understand why this is so... contested. First we argue if it's a universe, now we argue who it scales, now we argue that we should wait for several untranslated games that GAVE us these feats to be completely so we can understand the cosmology and terminology??
 
ShiroyashaGinSan said:
How would Kama's universe fit in anyway? You guys are making a Cosmology and Terminology blog, not feat and scaling one. You know that feats doesn't come from Terminology or cosmology, and feats makes up the tier, not the latter. Unless it's a blog entirely dedicated solely to the feats, then it's not a cosmology blog.
Click to expand...
Simple.

We determine "Universe" in the context of the Nasuverse to mean one thing as opposed to the other.

If you want an example where cosmology had a direct relation with tiering, look no further than The Elder Scrolls, where what can easily be perceived as a planet is actually a space-time continuum. Sure, I'm aware that what happens with one verse need not apply to the other, but when you make the general claim "Cosmology and feats are Separate", I can use such examples to point out flaws with that perspective.

When what is being examined is of vital importance to what is being described, yes, there needs to be a thorough analysis.

Consistency, terminology, and anti-feats aren't needed for a revision? You're conflating two different ideas. Consistency, terminology, and anti-feats act against revisions, not with them. I'm asking us to research the verse for them because "I destroyed a universe" can be greatly changed due to situation at hand.

Given what Regis has provided I do not think this is 'straightforward'. I would like more opportunity for him to gather and lay out his points.

Out of curiosity, did anyone attempt to make Blazblue revisions as you made your blog? I'm interested as to what effect they had on the blog itself, and if those revisions actually went through. I'm sure you're familiar with the need for breathing space to work on sweeping revisions, and the trouble with adding them in rapidly and in an unorganized fasion.

To be fair, you have the benefit of hindsight. Most upgrades and downgrades happen without any awareness of complicating factors that are later brought up, while we begin this change aware (See: Regis' posts) that there are some complications.

I personally doubt that any blog that is formulated will have no pushback, but I think this is a matter of opinion.

Additionally I am not participating in the thread, I'm clarifying this because I hear stuff like "your group" and "your changes" when I'm actually arguing on behalf of others. I'm not pretending that I have any knowledge of the recent developments in the Nasuverse.

ShiroyashaGinSan said:
There is no urgency, I just don't get the reason. So other people who are into Fate is going to bite their nails, waiting for something while they wait the revision they did, approved, just can't add it? It's very disheartening to say the least.
Click to expand...
I'm simply sharing my perspective, not stonewalling the revision.

I don't see significant pushback against this beyond Regis, who has stopped responding to me off-site, and like I said if the silence continues you can drop these changes on the site.

I just don't like throwing big stuff onto big verses without hearing out all sides of the equation.
 
Shiro, I don't think you realize what I am saying. Number of times a statement is made is literally irrelevant, as far as I am concerned, if the context behind the line isn't understood. Kama could say universe 30 times, but as far as I am aware the way in which she is using that word across those 13-14 cases isn't any different. So if in any of those cases there's anything that points to the fact that Universe is not literal, then boom goes the scaling. Said context which is the very same thing that doesn't make Surtr burn a bunch of different realms but the Norse layer off the world, and makes Eresh fire not a planet but it's concept, and makes Attila not summon an orbital laser but taunt God Mars into attacking her and redirecting the attack.

Again, if it's accepted, I don't care and go ahead with the changes. But I don't feel satisfied at all with the hurried nature of this and feel it entirely problematic.

And no Milly, just from past precedents I am not too happy just using the words at face value. As far as we can see Shirou's Reality Marble stretches on and on and there's likely even a Sun due to the lighting of the sky, but he isn't anything beyond Tier 7, nor is Sherlock and Semiramis for having an Anti-World NP. I mean, we are taking burning the universe at Face Value when the term used is "flames of corruption"... by an entity that's more or less the other side of the mind haxing, mind CORRUPTING Beast Kiara, and who wants to "fill" humanity with love. How's flame taken as in a literal flame or literal burning here? How even?

Anyway, I don't think my comments are gonna change much, so I am out of here. Or I'll try to be, knowing myself I'll reply again for whatever reason...
 
@Dargoo

I'm not saying that the cosmology and feats are separate. It's just that it's not always connected. Yes, many times, cosmology gives us feats and sometimes vice versa. But that isn't always the case. We have feats that isn't connected to any cosmology. Hell, most of the profiles in this wiki is like that. Also I think this part is derailing so we should stop this part.

Consistency and possible anti-feat might be a problem in this revision, though I didn't see that much. But I guess we should give Regis a chance more. Though he isn't replying now.

There are many smaller scale revisions before we made one. Though again, this didn't bothered me. Since many of the stuff they have is already there. We could just copy and paste many of their abilities, with few tweaks to the explanation. Not to mention we missed some things that the profiles had.
 
My rebuttals are as below

Timat existing all across space-time https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/3135626#164

Translations 1
https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/3135626#185

Translations 2
https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/3135626#194

CCC BB being 3-A to Low-2c
https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/3135626#249

BB's caine space being connected to time, and is without limit. possibly another high-3 A realm possibly higher.
https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/3135626#251


Rebuttals to Regis counter arguments.

Regis says says "Whereas she states that she has become identified to the Universe itself, she subsequently pronounces Universe as Õà¿õ║║Úí× (zenjinrui, "all of humanity")."

Õà¿õ║║Úí× this is misinformation. Those symbols don't mean Universe, and have nothing to do with it. In the reddit link he used. It does this Õ«çÕ«ÖÒü«Õà¿õ║║Úí×. The Symbols Õ«çÕ«Ö mean a literal universe. If you read my translations as i linked above. This phrase is say something similar too "The universe/space-time of the humans/The world of the Humans." Using the symbols Õ«çÕ«Ö means its a separate space-time. When put into a full sentence.

https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/3135626#4

Regis in this comment he used a reddit link https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/3135626#6

He glossed over some missing points. within that link he provided there is a line that says.

"Here stands a beast that lavishes mankind with (arrows of) passion that could burn the universe."

"『The World of Love, The Burning Universe』
Rank: EX
Classification: Anti-World Noble Phantasm
Range: 100~99999
Max. number of targets: 1"

^ This is reinforced by the scans i translated.

Regis says here "Profile 6 is what equates universe to humanity."

reference my first paragraph for this rebuttal. It actually means "The Universe/Space time of the humans/of humanity." They aren't being equated at all.

https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/3135626#8

Regis says here "Which is contextualized by the preceding line. As well as unsupported by any actual feats so it's difficult to take this seriously."

Which was debunked by translated scans, supporting feats. She has actual feats, statements, and her profile also says reiterates the same thing.

https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/3135626#10
----

Regis says "Add on the fact that there is no explicit 3-A feats by anyone else, let alone Kama, whose statements have alternate meanings, makes this upgrade very unlikely. Add on the proposed upgrades to characters with zero other universal feats and this very much feels like some people willingly taking things out of context."

There is no alternate meaning. As i shown with the first paragraph above. The meaning of universe is literal. As i shown with BB in CCC there is supporiting evidence with scaling, or using another character with Universe level feats to scale off of.

https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/3135626#32


Regis says here. "The several all feed off that one line, and the actual feats don't support it as well as you think, given that there's no stars, or planetary bodies in Kama's "Universe", just infinite copies that can get beaten by the likes of Yagyuu"

I don't think he releaizes that stars, and planets aren't necessary for universal feat.

https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/3135626#58

Regis says here. "When they all ignore the context and the exact details of what Kama's "Universe" is, it's pretty clearly hyperbole"

we have supporting feats from scaling by other characters, and translations. There is no context ignored, but even the link he provided above. it says she can burn the universe.

https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/3135626#65
----

Regis says here "The space itself hasn't been stated to be anything like the actual full universe, and it being so is directly contradicted by the various oddities like ground and oxygen manifested for us or the fact that it disappears to reveal a room in a palace. Unless you have anything that isn't already rejected by the ratings for Reality Marbles, this part is pointless."

Gameplay mechanics, and plot convience can explain a good chunk of this. The main character was able to survive in the same realm Goetia was in for longer than a few minues, while in camelot arc he needed a special scary made by Da Vanci. Even though later on the mana density in the age of Gods in babylon arc was much worse.

https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/3135626#75
----

Regis - "It doesn't specify if it's real or conceptual. BB can't do what you're saying either and having stuff from Tiamat doesn't equate to having the same power level. The fights with BB, Kiara, and Kama are all conceptual stuff fighting against each other and us needing something specific to even have a small chance of doing something. In none of those fights were we shown universal firepower.

They lived in a different Texture for a while, before AoG ended. Which is strange given that we don't see any signs of this supposedly universal destruction anywhere."

I provided scans that BB swallowed the MoonCell, and is infused with the MoonCell which has spaces of infinite distance, and can generate entire solar systems. Even has its own Observable Universe, and beyond that.

https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/3135626#140

Regis has several comments about the types that is apart of the nasuverse that i don't know much about so i won't say anything there.

These are my rebuttals to regis. If others want to elaborate more on them and help me/us improve upon them, please do thank you.
 
Why would you wait months for a blog which might not even get written? Why would you leave the profiles with bad information and wrong tiers if revision has already been established as correct? This is not a massive Fate revision. It concerns a few characters, not everyone. Regis has shown that he blatantly ignores evidence that disprove his theory, so I don't know why we have to go through it again.
 
I don't even see why this is still being argued, even. And by the slim margin it IS wrong, it's not like someone won't go out of their way to downgrade it.
 
Take JoJo for example. People have upgraded it to 2-A with some very questionable evidence. Now it's getting downgraded. Don't see why Fate is treated like someone is going to die if it gets upgraded.
 
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