Ajimu 8-C is somewhat iffy

[Random_Bill_Cipher_tard]

That's not what that fallacy is.

No, it'd need to be almost dead-on for that. If she was even a few meters away it would drop to high-end 3-B. One light year away would be 4-A. I don't think it's implausible given the image shown that she would be that far away, assuming it's meant to be her PoV. The universe had a radius of about 10 light years after one second, I think it's pretty easy to call that sort of timeframe the "birth".

I am almost certain that it wouldn't, but I guess we can wait for Ultima for that.

Really, that's the only notable new point being brought up. Considering the Discussion Rule against changing Ajimu's tier without new arguments, this thread would be closeable without the saving grace of the tiering system changes.

@Antvasima @DontTalkDT How much leeway do you think I should be giving here?

Easy.

• Lip Service requires her to kiss someone.
• Five Focus requires her to scratch someone.
• Door to Door requires her to kiss someone.
• Unskilled only lasts for three minutes.

I disagree. There's no universal energy system underlying different abilities in Medaka Box. They can function very differently from each other.

We know that they were looking, all of them (except for maybe Hanten) were watching, and were intimidated by it.

There's nothing in the text of the GLK novels implying that they're purified. I think it's an important point that its actual use seems to have almost nothing to do with the description.

Because they occur on two subsequent pages; the first page there has Unskilled listed at the bottom. And on the next page she says that Count Up is the last skill she uses, so it has to be after the rest.

Even if she used them one after another, they sure seem like the sorts of things that would be visible.

You cannot simultaneously say "Her being Low 1-A is supported by her being above the rest of the cast" and "Some characters are above her, but they just scale". By acknowledging the latter you have to lose the former.

It isn't. They're both spelled the same way, and are just different readings of the same word. They're not related; Anshin'in is invoked to compare to the common word "anshin", use to mean like "feel at ease", "don't worry", etc.

No. We don't use MTL since it often makes relevant mistakes.

And I'd just generally be careful with this sort of thing, since the author often talks about characters in similar ways despite a total lack of meta powers. iirc there's statements about Zaregoto's characters pushing it to be more of a fighting-oriented series (here, question 26). And statements about Monogatari's characters changing the author's direction of the story (in the afterwords for Ougimono and Shinobumono iirc, in the first chapter of Shinomono 2, probably in some other places too).

It's just an evocative way of talking about the story-writing process, not a specific ability of Ajimu's, I think.

That's about her being sealed by Momo Momozono, a statement from chapter 152, a completely different case from Kumagawa sealing Ajimu.

In fact, near that statement we have this statement from Kumagawa that it took Ajimu three years to remove Bookmaker.

No, Ajimu Najimi is her real name, she just occasionally brings up Anshin'in as a nickname.

I find the statement "I would have had no choice but to kill you" way weaker than Ajimu saying that she can't beat Medaka and that she lost to Iihiko over 100,000,000 times, and had to simply avoid him.

It does seem plausible that she protected Zenkichi by sacrificing herself so that Zenkichi, with his protagonist powers, could kill Iihiko. But that doesn't support the idea that Ajimu is a Low 1-A above-author character.

No, she didn't have it. It was Zenkichi's Devil Style ability that he asked Hanten to make for him.

Ajimu probably could've had it, if she asked Hanten for it, but that never happened canonically.

No, that's a misunderstanding.

Ajimu created Hanten to act as a backup of her.

Hanten created a clan of others so they could act as backups for her, the Shiranui clan.

This Shiranui clan decided to use their skill as backups to act that way for other people. Those that they found interesting (like Iihiko), or those that could pay them a lot (like Fukurou).

Iihiko was not a backup of Ajimu. Iihiko was backed up by Ajimu's backups as a side hustle of theirs.

I have no idea where you're getting this idea from.

The first one of those was a joke, as shown on the literal next page.

The second one was the culmination of him remembering all his allies; she was just the last one in the list. This doesn't imply that all the others are telepathically speaking to him.

Oh okay. Yeah I think "realm" is a less confusing word to use there, due to the Low 1-A part of this discussion.

I don't think it's real enough for those ratings.

I find your response an all-too-common case of rating Ajimu high due to misunderstandings and not reading the series closely enough. That's a charitable reading at least, a less charitable one would be that you're deliberately taking things out of context, but I think MB's a confusing enough series for these to be accidents.

That's not what this fallacy is.

1⁰ The argument from repetition (Argumentum ad nauseum) is the argument that just repeats what has been refuted or just continues to make that statement and that is what happened. You twice stated that Ajimu was an unknown distance away but I showed that she would be near or close enough to observe the birth of the universe and that the other paintings depict her closely observing things like the formation of the Earth or the first living thing. Being a close distance that isn't that great, it could be bypassed by, I don't know, 3-C and 3-A.

No, you would need to be almost dead for that. If she were a few meters away, she would drop to high level 3-B. A light year away would be 4-A. I don't find it implausible, given the image shown, that she would be so far away, assuming that's meant to be her PoV. The universe had a radius of about 10 light years after a second, I think it's pretty easy to call that kind of time period a "birth".

2⁰ Using the PoV we have a context that she was close, and I don't think it's consistent that you want to determine the time, but any attempt to measure how far away she would be could not be considered, you would at least have to prove that she could perceive something 1 light year away on the base for example or anything that could support this narrative, since we know that it could replicate the creation of the universe and did not die in combat.

I disagree. There is no universal energy system underlying the Medaka Box's different abilities. They can function very differently from others.

3⁰ If you don't want to put her at the character's level, that's fine, if you think it's better, just put her skills at the level of the guys she fought.

We know they were watching, all of them (except maybe Hanten) were watching and were intimidated by it.

Edit: I forgot to answer this part. From what it looks like it would be Ajinu seeing them, besides I can't even see Scan to say anything, if it's one of those who talk about her abilities, she could very well have only deactivated it after using it and leaving them alive for example

Because they occur on two subsequent pages; the first page has Unskilled listed at the bottom. And on the next page she says that Count Up is the last skill she uses, so it has to be after the rest.

4⁰ I'm not saying that she didn't use one skill and then another, the feeling I meant was using one and already using the next, which what you said doesn't prove this point. We don't see the battle so it's impossible to say that it's wrong to say that she used one after another at a fast pace.

Even though she wears them one after the other, they certainly look like the kind of thing that shows.

5⁰ This is another point, it is very weak, it would be like the False dichotomy, which, according to the words of vs battle

This is when someone claims that there are only a certain amount of options, and if all but one are false, then the other must be true. This ignores the possibility of other options.

Completely ignoring the possibility that Ajimu just decided to deactivate his ability after using it, furthermore, this ends the arguments not being valid. In the worst case scenario, these skills would not be included in combat because we don't know the situation, but it would still be good to put them as part of the Profile, since in any case Ajimu cannot even be used in serious comparisons and could still be described in the skill layer. character, perhaps even increasing consistency.

Type 3-A (survived a Big Bang and is capable of creating universes with her abilities), possibly Low 1-A (Able to transcend dimensions, although how she uses the ability is unknown and the kanji may be about travel as well )

You can't simultaneously say "The fact that she is Low 1-A is supported by her being above the rest of the cast" and "Some characters are above her, but they just climb." By recognizing the latter, you have to lose the former.

6⁰ Sorry, but when did I say that some characters are above her? And another, you're attacking a straw man here, at no point did I say that her being above the others makes her Low 1-A, I just wanted to show her superiority to the rest of the characters and that only she is Scala at the Low -A tier.

And I would generally be careful with this sort of thing, as the author often talks about characters in similar ways despite a complete lack of meta powers. If I'm not mistaken, there are statements about Zaregoto's characters forcing it to be more of a fighting-oriented series (here, question 26). And statements about Monogatari's characters changing the direction of the author's story (in the afterword to Ougimono and Shinobumono, if I'm not mistaken, in the first chapter of Shinomono 2, probably in a few other places as well).

It's just an evocative way of talking about the story-writing process, not a specific skill of Ajimu's, I think.

7⁰ It really is a good point to be raised, but it seems at least a little strange to me, but in the case of Zeragoto I would really like more context, since it seems too open to say that it refutes the elaboration of plot manipulation, since which doesn't explain exactly how they did it or it's just about them stopping fighting so the fight had to be fought because the author couldn't counter the character's evolution to continue the fights, for example. Is there any reason Ougimono and Shinobumono can't have plot manipulation? Furthermore, later you will mention that she doesn't have one because she didn't ask Hanten, but I'll answer now that it's on topic.

No, she didn't. It was Zenkichi's Devil Style skill that he asked Hanten to make for him. Ajimu probably could have had it if she asked Hanten, but that never happened canonically.

8⁰ Hanten compares her ability to create skills that yours doesn't even compare to hers and that is nothing more than a shadow, it is literally like her highlighted phrase in vs Battle and she obviously demonstrates quotes for this, something like possibly plot manipulation with a note that she can have if she wants but it is not certain whether she already has it or not, although she has sought out impossible things to do, so if even Hanten who is inferior to hers, it must be of a lower level and Ajimu's must already have it.

In fact, near that statement we have this statement from Kumagawa that it took Ajimu three years to remove Bookmaker.

9⁰ Where does this prove that Ajimu couldn't take it off whenever she wanted, I can't open the link, but the two possibilities are, she spent 2 years with him or spent two years trying to take him off. Both possibilities could be explained, the first would just be that she hadn't gotten bored yet and the fact that it took two years to take it off could just be her being fair to the script.

No, Ajimu Najimi is her real name, she only occasionally mentions Anshin'in as a nickname.

11⁰ My friend who understands the work and who asked me to be here didn't respond to me while I was doing it, so this and about Ajimu's real name I have to let her respond later.

12⁰ I will ignore this argument because you agree that Ajimu > Iihiko.

Oh, okay. Yes, I think "kingdom" is a less confusing word to use here, given the Low 1-A part of this discussion.

13⁰ Fair enough, in this case this feat would be what speed?

I don't think it's real enough for these ratings.

14⁰ But the possibility still exists here, it is not plausible to say that it would be one or the other, the possibility of discarding it would be something like Argument from ignorance which due to lack of information cannot be taken as real, as it is just one of the possibilities

and no, I didn't forget that

Easy. Lip Service requires her to kiss someone. Five Focus requires her to scratch someone. Door to Door requires her to kiss someone. Unqualified only lasts three minutes

As I mentioned, my friend still hasn't responded to me so I couldn't confirm anything. But, even if these skills couldn't be used in serious battles here at vs battle, she could still perform the feats she mentioned like creating a universe, controlling infinities or transcending dimensions, still being able to be listed on her profile and be used to level up her tier because we know she is capable. In any case, you cannot use ajimu in topics like this

 

[Agnaa]

2⁰ Using the PoV we have a context that she was close, and I don't think it's consistent that you want to determine the time, but any attempt to measure how far away she would be could not be considered, you would at least have to prove that she could perceive something 1 light year away on the base for example or anything that could support this narrative, since we know that it could replicate the creation of the universe and did not die in combat.

Wha, ordinary humans can perceive things more than 1 light year away. Every star except for our own is more than 1 light year away.

3⁰ If you don't want to put her at the character's level, that's fine, if you think it's better, just put her skills at the level of the guys she fought.

They're completely featless and have no scaling.

4⁰ I'm not saying that she didn't use one skill and then another, the feeling I meant was using one and already using the next, which what you said doesn't prove this point. We don't see the battle so it's impossible to say that it's wrong to say that she used one after another at a fast pace.

What, so she activates Unskilled, and then before its effect can be applied to reality, she uses Count Up? I guess we don't know enough to be certain, but I think that's unlikely given how she was announcing her use of Count Up, and how Unskilled's later use didn't seem to have a delay.

Completely ignoring the possibility that Ajimu just decided to deactivate his ability after using it, furthermore, this ends the arguments not being valid. In the worst case scenario, these skills would not be included in combat because we don't know the situation, but it would still be good to put them as part of the Profile, since in any case Ajimu cannot even be used in serious comparisons and could still be described in the skill layer. character, perhaps even increasing consistency.

I think there's so many, that needing to go "Actually she deactivated all of these skills. And for ones where deactivating wouldn't stop the visual remnants, she did something else unstated to clean that up" becomes so unlikely that we can't treat it as reasonable.

And, I think including them on the profile gives them more endorsement than they deserve. We ran onto this issue with Medaka's profile, where some of those abilities were included for completeness but not allowed in fights. This just lead to conclusion, people repeatedly creating upgrade threads since they were on the profile saying "Well since they're on the profile, they're already accepted", and people trying to use them in fights regardless.

6⁰ Sorry, but when did I say that some characters are above her? And another, you're attacking a straw man here, at no point did I say that her being above the others makes her Low 1-A, I just wanted to show her superiority to the rest of the characters and that only she is Scala at the Low -A tier.

Your wording was extremely confusing, and I thought you were saying that. If not, my bad.

7⁰ It really is a good point to be raised, but it seems at least a little strange to me, but in the case of Zeragoto I would really like more context, since it seems too open to say that it refutes the elaboration of plot manipulation, since which doesn't explain exactly how they did it or it's just about them stopping fighting so the fight had to be fought because the author couldn't counter the character's evolution to continue the fights, for example. Is there any reason Ougimono and Shinobumono can't have plot manipulation? Furthermore, later you will mention that she doesn't have one because she didn't ask Hanten, but I'll answer now that it's on topic.

The characters being talked about in that way have nothing remotely in that ballpark.

8⁰ Hanten compares her ability to create skills that yours doesn't even compare to hers and that is nothing more than a shadow, it is literally like her highlighted phrase in vs Battle and she obviously demonstrates quotes for this, something like possibly plot manipulation with a note that she can have if she wants but it is not certain whether she already has it or not, although she has sought out impossible things to do, so if even Hanten who is inferior to hers, it must be of a lower level and Ajimu's must already have it.

The way I read that, is that Hanten is being a pale imitation of Ajimu's large number of skills, which she obtained by trying to do the impossible. He developed that "skill to create skills" as a way to reflect her development of skills in the face of hardships.

That doesn't mean that Ajimu already has those skills. Hanten's inferior since he still hasn't come anywhere close to Ajimu's number of skills; iirc he contributed fewer than 1,000 skills to her.

9⁰ Where does this prove that Ajimu couldn't take it off whenever she wanted, I can't open the link, but the two possibilities are, she spent 2 years with him or spent two years trying to take him off. Both possibilities could be explained, the first would just be that she hadn't gotten bored yet and the fact that it took two years to take it off could just be her being fair to the script.

It doesn't "prove" that, nothing in fiction is proof (since you can always come up with excuses like that), it's just evidence. And I think the variety of statements about how Bookmaker/All Fiction worked on her, how her exact clone was sealed in the same way, how she needed years to escape, and was ultimately able to do so because Kumagawa's heart softened. I think all of that's way stronger than statements about her being easily able to escape other characters' sealing.

12⁰ I will ignore this argument because you agree that Ajimu > Iihiko.

No. If we're comparing them to characters in other pieces of fiction, Ajimu may be able to beat more of them than Iihiko, but Iihiko hard-counters Ajimu in multiple ways, making him able to defeat her in the text.

13⁰ Fair enough, in this case this feat would be what speed?

It wouldn't, because the distance between them is unclear. They're probably not even physical places, considering they're talked about as being in Zenkichi/Kumagawa's hearts.

14⁰ But the possibility still exists here, it is not plausible to say that it would be one or the other, the possibility of discarding it would be something like Argument from ignorance which due to lack of information cannot be taken as real, as it is just one of the possibilities

and no, I didn't forget that

Our "possibly" ratings aren't used for everything that's possible, they still need to meet quite the bar of evidence. From our Attack Potency page:

Should be used to list a statistic for a character with some basis, but inconclusive due to the justification being vague or non-definitive. The probability of the justification in question for being reliable should be notable, but mild. This term should be used sparingly.

 

[Random_Bill_Cipher_tard]

Wha, ordinary humans can perceive things more than 1 light year away. Every star except for our own is more than 1 light year away.

They're completely featless and have no scaling.

What, so she activates Unskilled, and then before its effect can be applied to reality, she uses Count Up? I guess we don't know enough to be certain, but I think that's unlikely given how she was announcing her use of Count Up, and how Unskilled's later use didn't seem to have a delay.

I think there's so many, that needing to go "Actually she deactivated all of these skills. And for ones where deactivating wouldn't stop the visual remnants, she did something else unstated to clean that up" becomes so unlikely that we can't treat it as reasonable.

And, I think including them on the profile gives them more endorsement than they deserve. We ran onto this issue with Medaka's profile, where some of those abilities were included for completeness but not allowed in fights. This just lead to conclusion, people repeatedly creating upgrade threads since they were on the profile saying "Well since they're on the profile, they're already accepted", and people trying to use them in fights regardless.

Your wording was extremely confusing, and I thought you were saying that. If not, my bad.

The characters being talked about in that way have nothing remotely in that ballpark.

The way I read that, is that Hanten is being a pale imitation of Ajimu's large number of skills, which she obtained by trying to do the impossible. He developed that "skill to create skills" as a way to reflect her development of skills in the face of hardships.

That doesn't mean that Ajimu already has those skills. Hanten's inferior since he still hasn't come anywhere close to Ajimu's number of skills; iirc he contributed fewer than 1,000 skills to her.

It doesn't "prove" that, nothing in fiction is proof (since you can always come up with excuses like that), it's just evidence. And I think the variety of statements about how Bookmaker/All Fiction worked on her, how her exact clone was sealed in the same way, how she needed years to escape, and was ultimately able to do so because Kumagawa's heart softened. I think all of that's way stronger than statements about her being easily able to escape other characters' sealing.

No. If we're comparing them to characters in other pieces of fiction, Ajimu may be able to beat more of them than Iihiko, but Iihiko hard-counters Ajimu in multiple ways, making him able to defeat her in the text.

It wouldn't, because the distance between them is unclear. They're probably not even physical places, considering they're talked about as being in Zenkichi/Kumagawa's hearts.

Our "possibly" ratings aren't used for everything that's possible, they still need to meet quite the bar of evidence. From our Attack Potency page:

Today I'm tired, tomorrow I'll answer

 

[FoxySonicMaster108]

Ajimu getting more CRT’s before the actual overhaul revision, holy

Going off of the original post. I hard disagree with giving Ajimu back her 3-A tier. Not only for the reasons of we don’t know how far away she was from the blast. But the fact Iihiko just contradicts that tiering for her (and also the fact her skills do not scale to her physical tier because Iihiko negates skills), and plus, it would be really weird to start scaling Iihiko and Medaka to 3-A at all. Iihiko doesn’t have durability negation anymore either, it wasn’t even supported in the series beyond him killing Ajimu

Low 1-A (and other higher tiers) have been discussed to death, it’s too vague to be indexed (and wouldn’t even scale to her physicals anyway imo)

Plot Manipulation I’m not entirely against. She does have a statement of being a character above the author (and I think even a skill to interfere with the narrative, but it’s part of her wall of skills so that’s out). But the entire thing of Plot Manipulation has been discussed (it got to a point where it was referenced on the ability page lol), and I've seen more blatant use of Plot Manipualtion in other verses.

EDIT: Also some of those skills that are on Ajimu’s profile were going to be removed.

 

[Random_Bill_Cipher_tard]

Ajimu getting more CRT’s before the actual overhaul revision, holy

Going off of the original post. I hard disagree with giving Ajimu back her 3-A tier. Not only for the reasons of we don’t know how far away she was from the blast. But the fact Iihiko just contradicts that tiering for her (and also the fact her skills do not scale to her physical tier because Iihiko negates skills), and plus, it would be really weird to start scaling Iihiko and Medaka to 3-A at all. Iihiko doesn’t have durability negation anymore either, it wasn’t even supported in the series beyond him killing Ajimu

Low 1-A (and other higher tiers) have been discussed to death, it’s too vague to be indexed (and wouldn’t even scale to her physicals anyway imo)

Plot Manipulation I’m not entirely against. She does have a statement of being a character above the author (and I think even a skill to interfere with the narrative, but it’s part of her wall of skills so that’s out). But the entire thing of Plot Manipulation has been discussed (it got to a point where it was referenced on the ability page lol), and I've seen more blatant use of Plot Manipualtion in other verses.

EDIT: Also some of those skills that are on Ajimu’s profile were going to be removed.

Regarding 3-A, I showed that the context in general uses it to be close to the event, it doesn't even answer my counter arguments properly. Plus she used a universe creation skill so it should be listed on her profile anyway. It also ignores the reasons why skills can be considered to increase your Tier and that skills could be listed even without specifications, as it is not known how she uses them, but Ajimu anyway is a character that cannot be used in comparisons. so this problem does not exist for Ajimu, unlike Medaka which can be used. He also says against it when he says that the reason the skills are not listed is because it is not known how they would be used but he also tries to say that they are incoherent and false, but he assumes just for the information of knowing which skill she used After having used one, We don't know how she used each skill, so much so that we don't even know the requirements, we don't know how she acted, the speed, nothing, but he still states that she used one after the other in a row, I see no reason why the skills wouldn't be considered for level her up.

I haven't done Rebunk yet and I intend to let it be Low 1-A more concrete, if you could see it later it would be good, in case you change your opinion about Low 1-A. and yes, I know it has already been discussed, but just as Debunk 3-A had already been discussed with "new evidence" and elaborations were accepted, I don't see why not do things like leveling up as well.

 

[Agnaa]

Y'know, I think we should remove the "transcend dimensions" part from her justification. The Medaka Box wiki identified that as one of many bad CXC translation mistakes nine years ago, so I think it's weird for us to propagate that.

 

[Random_Bill_Cipher_tard]

Y'know, I think we should remove the "transcend dimensions" part from her justification. The Medaka Box wiki identified that as one of many bad CXC translation mistakes nine years ago, so I think it's weird for us to propagate that.

Can you please show if there was any discussion to change it? Just saying that they changed doesn't prove much

 

[Random_Bill_Cipher_tard]

Y'know, I think we should remove the "transcend dimensions" part from her justification. The Medaka Box wiki identified that as one of many bad CXC translation mistakes nine years ago, so I think it's weird for us to propagate that.

And what would be CXC? sorry I don't know

 

[Agnaa]

Can you please show if there was any discussion to change it? Just saying that they changed doesn't prove much

There wasn't discussion to change it, but you can see from the history that that dude was going over all the skills retranslating many of them, and providing parts of the raw text for the page. Many of these retranslations included explanations in the edit summaries, but not all of them did.

And what would be CXC? sorry I don't know

CXC Scans was the group that originally translated Medaka Box. The first ~110 chapters have been retranslated (when issues were picked up) by another group for a coloured release, but they haven't caught up to any of the relevant scans yet, and have gone on indefinite hiatus.

 

[Random_Bill_Cipher_tard]

There wasn't discussion to change it, but you can see from the history that that dude was going over all the skills retranslating many of them, and providing parts of the raw text for the page. Many of these retranslations included explanations in the edit summaries, but not all of them did.

So he just changed and that was it? What is the proof here? the page itself doesn't have one that's elaborate enough for us to know if it's about crossing dimensions or transcending them, all that could be done would be to look at the other skills to see if she has something similar and if it makes sense for her to have two skills of that type

 

[Agnaa]

So he just changed and that was it? What is the proof here? the page itself doesn't have one that's elaborate enough for us to know if it's about crossing dimensions or transcending them, all that could be done would be to look at the other skills to see if she has something similar and if it makes sense for her to have two skills of that type

I think the reason is the stuff I mentioned earlier:

EDIT: Another noteworthy issue with the "transcend dimensions" thing is that the word used for "transcend" (越える) doesn't really mean that, its two definitions are "to be more than" (i.e. "my grandmother is more than 60 years old" and "there are more than 10 humans on Earth"), and "to go over" (i.e. "a dog went over the fence", "the water ran over the river bank"). I guess I can see a similarity, but it's not "transcend" in the way we use it in English.

While it's very hard to tell because my copy of the raws is low-quality, I think it uses 越える instead of 超える, which is most often used for the second meaning. So that's probably why the wiki person put it to "cross dimensions" (as it's seemingly about physical movement), and if CXC misread it as 超える, that could help explain why they used "surpass", viewing it as more of a quantity-based thing.

 

[Random_Bill_Cipher_tard]

ile it's very hard to tell because my copy of the raws is low-quality, I think it uses 越える instead of 超える, which is most often used for the second meaning. So that's probably why the wiki person put it to "cross dimensions" (as it's seemingly about physical movement), and if CXC misread it as 超える, that could help explain why they used "surpass", viewing it as more of a quantity-based thing.

I'll see about that

 

[Ruphas_Mafahl123]

I'll see about that

̶D̶o̶ ̶n̶o̶t̶ ̶w̶o̶r̶r̶y̶,̶ ̶I̶'̶m̶ ̶p̶l̶a̶n̶n̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶r̶i̶g̶h̶t̶ ̶n̶o̶w̶ ̶a̶ ̶q̶u̶i̶c̶k̶ ̶C̶R̶T̶ ̶f̶o̶r̶ ̶A̶j̶i̶m̶u̶

 

[Demon_Lord18]

We can simply analyze the context of the scene, the scene is about Ajimu and how much she has lived, with the phrase "THE MEMORY OF ONE WHO LIVED TOO LONG...!!". Let's ignore the information that she saw the creation of the universe for now, let's move on to the following scenes. She observed the earth begin to exist, the first living being, the first humans, etc. Ok, the context is that she is there in person, as we see her see the creation of the earth in space, but from this we are shown a view of her on earth, as we can see this by the way the background with the blue sky is shown. , showing that she is no longer in space, so looking at what was shown, she demonstrates seeing such events personally and up close while the manga shows what she saw, be it the first human beings or the creation of the earth. So what is shown of her talking about seeing the creation of the universe is her seeing the beginning of the Big Bang, since if she were so far away that the energy of the big Bang could be equated to the 8-C level or similar, it would already be the expansion of the universe.. and not her creation, which would contradict the entire context that was shown of Ajimu's sentence and the context shown by the following scenes. We can say that it was at least close and tier 3-A would be guaranteed here.

From what I understand, you're assuming he saw the Big Bang up close because she saw the creation of the Earth up close. If so, I disagree with your logic.

Which honestly should be changed to "possibly Low 1-A" since we are talking about a possibility and the level of power to transcend dimensions is Low 1-A

No, you'd have to prove the existence of higher dimensions

As a general rule-of-thumb, statements of being "above dimensions" and the like, whenever validly indicating a superiority over higher dimensions, fall under this tier without further context

But continuing... Here it talks about being possibly bigger, but it's a bit strange to say that they have an unknown veracity. In the scans themselves, Ajimu shows herself using some of the skills she describes, we see her using lightning and one of the skills she mentions in the Scan is precisely the ability to use lightning, in another, she mentions an ability to transform into a monster and on the page itself she is like a monster, this happens with all the scans she describes her abilities with her demonstrating one of the skills she mentions.

Bone manipulation is in her profile because she has demonstrated it, the stronger the ability, the more evidence you must provide to prove its veracity, her using other abilities does not prove that she has the ability to transcend dimensions (It's strange that this is listed as an ability)

to use skills that are multipliers that multiply a characteristic, like magic. or sword skills, showing that the skills she cites are related to. you literally left bone manipulation via one of these scenes but want to disregard other information given on the same page just because.

OH, I USED 600 SKILLS
She's clearly talking about how many skills she used

We can also mention that Hanten Shiranui, who is Ajimu's partner, can grant plot manipulation to Zenkichi

This is listed as a resistance, not an ability

Resistance to Plot Manipulation (Can negate narrative causality and plot armor via Devil Style)

Edit: I got it wrong, he granted the resistance

Ajimu is shown as superior to the verse several times, first she is clearly shown to be holding back for the good of the work, such as turning off her omniscience to be fair to the work, Ajimu also lets herself be affected by other characters, such as Kamugawa saying who only managed to seal Ajimu because she let him seal him, yes he may have even managed to seal an exact copy of her, but Ajimu is fair to the script and if he were to actually manage to seal her, Ajimu wouldn't need to let him seal her in the first place, since he would hypothetically have the capacity to do so. Ajimu is tough that she would survive Hanten in all probability. Hanten also states that Ajimu is unique and that his ability to create ability is nothing but a shadow to hers and the possibility is said that he was apparently sealed but came out on his own, so him being inferior to Ajimu would also prove her to be above the seal and be left sealed of its own accord.

Ajimu is also called Omnipotent, all-powerful or even the Transcendental character, being very consistent with her having the greatest feats and quotes in the work, having a huge gap between the other characters and her, with her doing whatever she wants in the plot and limiting herself on purpose for the good of the work, even on the character's page in this Wiki she is accepted as the strongest in the verse.

This seems to me more like a Circular reasoning fallacy, nothing there really proves that all the abilities cited by Ajimu are true, to assume this with little evidence is crazy and, even if it were, Low 1-A would still be out of the question for reasons I pointed out above

As I have already shown to Scan, Ajimu is said to be the type of character who is above the author, making his statements super valid, with everything that has been elaborated it is safe to say that there is no reason to doubt the veracity of Ajimu's abilities or his superiority. insane above the other characters, we have no reason to limit her to the same level as the others, so her description of her abilities are 100% valid, due to her ability to Transcend Dimensions, she could be placed with the Low 1-A tier since quotes like that even without much context would put it in this tier.

I couldn't find this scan anywhere, maybe I searched poorly. However, this doesn't make sense, since everything she says or does is controlled by the writers. Does the manga at least reference this by showing her doing something against the creator? If not, this citation should be ignored.

I disagree with everything proposed in the OP

 

[Random_Bill_Cipher_tard]

From what I understand, you're assuming he saw the Big Bang up close because she saw the creation of the Earth up close. If so, I disagree with your logic.

No, you'd have to prove the existence of higher dimensions



Bone manipulation is in her profile because she has demonstrated it, the stronger the ability, the more evidence you must provide to prove its veracity, her using other abilities does not prove that she has the ability to transcend dimensions (It's strange that this is listed as an ability)


OH, I USED 600 SKILLS
She's clearly talking about how many skills she used


This is listed as a resistance, not an ability



This seems to me more like a Circular reasoning fallacy, nothing there really proves that all the abilities cited by Ajimu are true, to assume this with little evidence is crazy and, even if it were, Low 1-A would still be out of the question for reasons I pointed out above


I couldn't find this scan anywhere, maybe I searched poorly. However, this doesn't make sense, since everything she says or does is controlled by the writers. Does the manga at least reference this by showing her doing something against the creator? If not, this citation should be ignored.

I disagree with everything proposed in the OP

Ok, tenho duas coisas para responder. Sinceramente tá bem fraquinho isso aí

 

[Demon_Lord18]

While it's very hard to tell because my copy of the raws is low-quality, I think it uses 越える instead of 超える, which is most often used for the second meaning. So that's probably why the wiki person put it to "cross dimensions" (as it's seemingly about physical movement), and if CXC misread it as 超える, that could help explain why they used "surpass", viewing it as more of a quantity-based thing.

This site can improve the quality of the image, but since it's AI, it may end up altering some kanji, so you have to be careful.

 

[Random_Bill_Cipher_tard]

This site can improve the quality of the image, but since it's AI, it may end up altering some kanji, so you have to be careful.

 

[Antvasima]

@Agnaa

What do we currently need to do here?

 

[Random_Bill_Cipher_tard]

[USUÁRIO=7964]@Agnaa[/USUÁRIO]

O que precisamos fazer aqui atualmente?

Can I do a Rebunk first?

 

[Agnaa]

@Agnaa

What do we currently need to do here?

Wait for Ultima's evaluation on whether this amount of evidence for Low 1-A is sufficient (I'm almost certain that it isn't), and then probably close it since the arguments aren't meaningfully distinct from the other times we've seen them in the last 10 years.

EDIT: Oh, also, I think we should remove/rename the "transcend dimensions" part of her AP rating, since that seems to have been a mistranslation.

 

[Random_Bill_Cipher_tard]

Wait for Ultima's evaluation on whether this amount of evidence for Low 1-A is sufficient (I'm almost certain that it isn't), and then probably close it since the arguments aren't meaningfully distinct from the other times we've seen them in the last 10 years.

Can I at least counter your argument, please???

 

[Agnaa]

You've already done so many times, so an opportunity has been given.

If you get it in before Ultima response, sure.

 

[Wankbreaker]

Definitely think low 1-A is out of the question, but why was her 3-A rating removed? She's implied to have tanked the big bang, no?

 

[Huesito88]

Definitely think low 1-A is out of the question, but why was her 3-A rating removed? She's implied to have tanked the big bang, no?

Distance from the explosion is a problem, in which even 10 meters will reduce such a rating by several orders

 

[Agnaa]

As the profile says, since her distance from it is unclear, it's hard to chuck a precise rating like "3-A" or any other particular tier on it..

 

[FoxySonicMaster108]

Regarding 3-A, I showed that the context in general uses it to be close to the event, it doesn't even answer my counter arguments properly. Plus she used a universe creation skill so it should be listed on her profile anyway. It also ignores the reasons why skills can be considered to increase your Tier and that skills could be listed even without specifications, as it is not known how she uses them,

I’ll admit I kinda tldr’d the op. Anyhow, I’m not even against skills being listed in their own tier, I mentioned that in the previous thread (within reason, so something like “Bang” might be fine, but it’s not up to me.). I guess I can somewhat understand the arguments for 3-A. But distance is a problem for one as mentioned, and I feel it would be an outlier anyway once again, considering Iihiko (unless we wanna say Iihiko and Medaka are 3-A which just doesn’t work given how the highest end feats for them are destroying a hospital and the moon respectively).

but Ajimu anyway is a character that cannot be used in comparisons. so this problem does not exist for Ajimu, unlike Medaka which can be used.

Except we can? We know that she’s at the very least much stronger than everyone else (even Medaka for a time). Iihiko one shots Ajimu, he is just blatantly stronger than her, she makes it very clear. And Medaka gets more powerful after learning styles and actually defeats Iihiko.

 

[Random_Bill_Cipher_tard]

Exceto que podemos? Sabemos que ela é, no mínimo, muito mais forte do que todos os outros (até mesmo Medaka por um tempo). Iihiko dá um tiro em Ajimu, ele é simplesmente descaradamente mais forte do que ela, ela deixa isso bem claro. E Medaka fica mais poderosa depois de aprender estilos e realmente derrota Iihiko.

Medaka is not above Ajimu, this will be explained in the elaboration that I will send in a moment, but I meant it in the sense of using Ajimu in a cross discussion

 

[Random_Bill_Cipher_tard]

Wha, ordinary humans can perceive things more than 1 light year away. Every star except for our own is more than 1 light year away.

Fair enough, I forgot that part, in fact, I don't know if it was on purpose or not, but you ended up skipping the first point, which is me explaining why it's the repetition argument. And you are still avoiding the context that is about her being close to the Big Bang because she had this pattern throughout the page and that you would have to prove that only the Big Bang scene is a case that does not follow the pattern.

They're completely featless and have no scaling.

Wouldn't it be possible to use something like "possibly 8-C" on them?

What, so she activates Unskilled, and then before its effect can be applied to reality, she uses Count Up? I guess we don't know enough to be certain, but I think that's unlikely given how she was announcing her use of Count Up, and how Unskilled's later use didn't seem to have delay.

Sorry, but you're just commenting on the same flaw, you're just arguing the same thing, repeating the argument without attacking mine, the page itself is kind of without any context of how the fight is going, we only see what skills she used and her using one of the skills, for example, the page talks about her using lightning, but it doesn't say how she used it, we only see how she used it because that's what is shown in the drawn page, this happens in all of them, she uses weapons but it is not said that she shot him, we only know because it is what the art shows us, there is no description, an explanation, how she is using it or the time, just because we know which skill she is using does not indicate that she is using one and then the other, nor does it make sense for her to do this in combat, it is ridiculous in a narrative sense or to think about a fight like that.

I think there's so many, that needing to go "Actually she deactivated all of these skills. And for ones where deactivating wouldn't stop the visual remnants, she did something else unstated to clean that up" becomes so unlikely that we can' t treat it as reasonable.

Actually, what I wanted to say is that she could very well have used and deactivated (skills like making her hair turn into a hand) and that would be the reason why she isn't showing up with her hand hair, we don't know how the fight occurred, if we see her without this we can say that it has deactivated, for example, a character to assume that he managed to save him and destroyed the castle or that it would be incoherent because he didn't show him entering, then we must assume it as inconsistency because he didn't enter and catch fire alone. We must assume what would be logical for it to end that way and not assume that it is an inconsistency as it does not make sense in terms of the script. Furthermore, Ajimu none of the skills would need to cause environmental destruction, she could have created a pocket dimension or something like that, summoning heaven or hell would not necessarily destroy the environment either, the means by which she did this are unknown but it still happened so are valid feats as they are Ajimu's skill.

And, I think including them on the profile gives them more endorsement than they deserve. We ran into this issue with Medaka's profile, where some of those abilities were included for completeness but not allowed in fights. This just leads to conclusion, people repeatedly creating upgrade threads since they were on the profile saying "Well since they're on the profile, they're already accepted", and people trying to use them in fights regardless.

I would even think it would be fair if Ajimu wasn't already banned from being used in Cross topics, you can't use that excuse because without or with these skills she can't be used in topics of this style, there's nothing that prevents them from being added.

Your wording was extremely confusing, and I thought you were saying that. If not, my bad.

Must have been Google translate

The characters being talked about in that way have nothing remotely in that ballpark.

I know, as much as I used it as an example, I wanted a valid explanation of how they're doing it in the first place, it might not be literal.

The way I read that, is that Hanten is being a pale imitation of Ajimu's large number of skills, which she obtained by trying to do the impossible. He developed that "skill to create skills" as a way to reflect her development of skills in the face of hardships.

It doesn't make sense, so the difference would be that she used more than him, the skills would be comparable so his skill would not be something like Ajimu's, since the difference would be using more, which would be meaningless. Furthermore, this would imply Ajimu already has plot manipulation.

It wouldn't, because the distance between them is unclear. They're probably not even physical places, considering they're talked about as being in Zenkichi/Kumagawa's hearts.

You are contradicting what was said, Ajimu was said to move between realities in Hanten's profile, not that he went to those places mentioned.

Nishio Inshin is a name with a masculine gender and Anshin'in san or ishin, is a feminine gender that in Portuguese and English is translated as Ajimu Najimi:

Male name: Nishio Inshin.
Female name: Anshin'in Inshin

English translation:
1. Male: Nishio Inshin
2. Femin: Anshin'in Najimi

Nominal prefixes:
Inshin = Ajimu
Anshin'in = Najimi
Ishin Anshin'in = Ajimu Najimi in femi*

Portuguese translation:
1. 安心院なじみ | Anshinin Najimi
2. 西尾維新 | Nishio Inshin

In fact, the name is correlated to a feminine translation of the masculine and original. That is, 西尾維新 (Nishio inshin means that it is a masculine gender, attributed to a man), and 安心院なじみ (Anshin'in san or ishin, means a feminine gender that in the English and Portuguese translation, means "Ajimu Najimi") .

Meaning of Terms

1. Inshin (隠心) the term can be interpreted as "hidden heart" or "secret heart", with 隠 ("in") representing "hide" and 心 ("shin") meaning "heart" or "mind".


2. Anshin'in (安心院), here we have the term 安心 ("anshin"), which means "tranquility" or "peace of mind", and 院 ("in"), which means "institute" or "temple ". When we talk about an "Anshin'in", we may be referring to a "person of inner peace" or a "place of tranquility", it depends on the context, but in this case it refers to a feminine essence


3. San (さん) this is an honorific suffix that confers respect and is generally neutral, used for both men and women (that is, it is bisexual, further reinforcing the idea that Nishio Inshin is Anshin'in san in the female translation) . The feminine or masculine form of a title does not depend on "san", but rather on elements in the name or the context in which the names are inserted. Nishio Inshin may be related to a male figure or someone associated with the concept of "hidden heart". In Japanese, for example, the name and words associated with the heart or mind usually have philosophical or spiritual tones (essence and masculine nature)

Anshin'in San in a feminine context would give an idea of a feminine person associated with inner peace or balance. The use of "san" gives a tone of respect, but is neutral, without directly indicatig gender.

Conclusion

Therefore, if "Nishio Inshin" represents a figure or concept more associated with the masculine, "Anshin'in San" could be a way of translating this into a feminine context, while maintaining the essence of "peace of mind" or "peace of mind".

She didn't escape when she wanted, because she didn't want to, she was busy with the book maker so she didn't care at all about leaving the label, especially because she knew that her goal would be completed in 3 years, so in the meantime she had nothing to do with it. important to do in the verse so she just stayed there resting, about ihiiko's thing, ajimu losing to ihiiko it was always shown that it was due to limitation and plot armor of ihiiko being the hero of the story, and mainly due to the fact that ajimu is limited by obviously represent the author and be fair, she herself already said if Medaka was one of the protagonist types who is the protagonist who wants to change the world for her life in the world Ajimu would kill her. besides that thing about her "losing to ihiiko in the past" thousands of times was just a quote from hanten shiranui who said "ihiiko is the only man who ajimu najimi cannot defeat" Something that could be equated with the "shonem junp hero)nishio in his elaboration, even in the guide book, explains that every ihiiko metaphor is to be a representation of the reader of shonem jump, while ajimu represents the author and the author cannot defeat the reader if he does not approach and create affection for his story, so much so that at the end of the work after ihiiko creates affection he loses his power of protagonism and is surpassed by other characters in the verse ,like medaka, zenkichi and kumagawa who are all superior to him at the end of the manga and all of these are inferior to ajimu both by feats and quotes. Like, Ajimu wanted to kill herself because she was bored and so above the others, she even claims that all the times she was in trouble were nothing more than mere occurrences.

(And also remembering that ihiiko doesn't even have feats to survive the destruction of a planet while ajimu has feats of durability above, speed, haxs, skills, battle IQ intelligence and experience which only proves once again that it was plot armor)

With this we can conclude Ajimu > The verse

Our "possibly" ratings aren't used for everything that's possible, they still need to meet the bar of evidence quite. From our Attack Potency page:

Fair enough, anyway I'll do a more detailed elaboration on

Well, let's talk about Ajimu transcend dimensions

Starting with the kanjis, I didn't find any Scan readable, so I looked for a Japanese website to see the kanjis and bingo!

[次元を超えるスキル 『次元喉果』 ハスキーボ イスディメンション]

超える is a Japanese word that means "to surpass" or "to exceed". The word is composed of the characters 超 (chou), which means "to surpass" or "transcend", and える (eru), which is a verbal suffix that indicates the ability to perform the action described by the verb.

The Definition being to exceed a certain standard.

It wouldn't make sense to be an ability to cross Dimensions, Ajimu already has an ability for this which is governing speed which was specified as controlling his own speed, it wouldn't make sense to be an ability to cross a dimension as it would be Governing speed, and to read kanji you have to see the context, so generally speaking transcending dimensions seems better here and I elaborated on it above.

It may have even been changed on the Medaka Box Wiki, but there wasn't even an explanation as to why.

It is much easier to argue and reason for an ability to Transcend Dimensions than to cross them.

Ajimu came from nothing, even without matter it would still not be the void in fact, so it comes from complete nothing, the void in fact could only be the literal nothing , being accepted even in Brazilian Wikipedia that nothing would be the absence of everything and even space and time because space and time is still something so she has to come from complete nothingness, furthermore, Ajimu is said to not be limited by time and she is listed as the ability to control time strengthening the narrative that she is not limited to being affected by time, all without using her ability.

So her ability would not take her to type 2 beyond-dimensional existence because her base already has that, so it would take her to type 1 being Low 1-A.