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Kama's stats and skills/Big Fate 3-A to Low 2-C Revision

Except Goetia is stated to be Higher-D and Tiamat is 4-D pocket. That's Low 2-C supporting feat. Dumb scaling isn't dumb because Mara is incomplete Beast as opposed to the two being complete. It is logical and actually makes sense by the rules we use in the wiki.

She can burn the universe and is the universe. AP isn't always a combat skill. Gigant: Take-Mikazuchi for example.
 
Right but Gil specifies that the human race will get to do this one day, which is generally meant to be actual space exploration. So them still being stuck in the MC seems contradictory.

Nasu dimensions don't work by wiki standards, and I don't know why we should suddenly turn around and think otherwise when the descriptions don't match well. Goetia still has no showings on the 3-A level, along with Tiamat, so trying to use scaling for characters who've never faced each other before is frankly illogical. And Kama still hasn't shown anything on that level either apart from her territory.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
Yeah I have to disagree that Shiro is ignoring context. If anything their arguments are pretty reasonable once you step out of the bias and preconceived notions.
Click to expand...
Doubtful since even without bias, you still can't show any hard evidence that can't be explained as being conceptual stuff, and you can't justify scaling at all without ignoring whole stories.
 
Her being 4-D pocket shows that she's at least 3-A. Since having 4-D pocket requires an energy bigger than 3-D. Nasu saying different things about dimensions doesn't matter, DC and Marvel suffers same shit and there are High 1-B people as we use our standards. They do them, we do us.

It's pretty much the same as Hi3 said. You need to show that it's conceptual. Not us showing that it is literal. Because again remind you, we go for Vanilla.
 
ShiroyashaGinSan said:
Her being 4-D pocket shows that she's at least 3-A. Since having 4-D pocket requires an energy bigger than 3-D. Nasu saying different things about dimensions doesn't matter, DC and Marvel suffers same shit and there are High 1-B people as we use our standards. They do them, we do us.

It's pretty much the same as Hi3 said. You need to show that it's conceptual. Not us showing that it is literal. Because again remind you, we go for Vanilla.
Click to expand...
Nasu saying stuff does matter, since every verse requires us to use their words to check and see if they match with the wiki standard. This is a terrible idea to just handwave stuff just because you feel your assumptions > the actual work, which does not show 3-A Tiamat.

You haven't exactly shown why we should take things literally given that conceptual manipulation is how Kama takes over Kasuga's Great Interior and how she's ejected from it. No universal showings here.
 
No, because no matter the feat, we put it in our standards, not their authors. Cthulhu Mythos for example. Lovecraft is dumb at mathematics, his understanding of shapes and mathematics make me look like Einstein in comparison. But Cthulhu people are 1-A, it's because we put by our standards, not Lovecraft understanding filled with misconceptions.

No? She created Great Interior by conceptual manipulation but not the universe. Great Interior is the maze, universe isn't part of it. It's just in the deepest layer. Plus using conceptual hax to create something won't make that thing conceptual. Like look at Masada.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
4D isn't automatically 3-A.
We also must discuss who scales to what. Not everyone should scale to Kama and others.
Click to expand...
The other feat I brought up is BB capable of destroying the universe. Even if they won't scale to Kama, they should scale to BB. Like Hakuno's servants.
 
Most commenting here: Agreed to get togther verse experts to discuss terminology and cosmology before massive changes.

Also most commenting here: Let's upgrade them anyways

Regis isn't pushing Planetary downgrades because of this, you guys should also wait until we discuss the "Universe" and "World" terms similarly.
 
Why we wait if it's stated that it's actually an universe for tons of times? Why we wait if it's completely and absolutely straightforward? I don't really like the idea that we slow down things that we already can do now.
 
Because your "completely and absolutely straightforward" evidence is contingent on "universe" in that context meaning one thing, when we still haven't reached a conclusion on that.

It's only going slow because of a refusal from both sides of this discussion in peacefully engaging the other on the matter. I personally agree with Regis on the fact that we're leaving out important concepts and terms in the Nasuverse.
 
Why not make a separate thread for CCC characters since we have Infinite distance within the mooncell that BB had to cross/break through, and the MoonCell being capable of generating a "Sea of stars" and "Other solar systems?"

If this is to be put on hold for now..
 
Like that humanity argument again because I already have counterargument above. And does the universe she created look like humanity to you? Because it's not.

It's not like I absolutely refuse to back down, it's just that I don't get a good argument. I'm not backing up either because with discussion we can conclude as fast as possible. There's no peaceful engagement in something like this, arguments will go on again and again even if we make a massive blog about cosmology.
 
At most they're saying what Kama made is just a reality marble, but none of the characters on the event even said that it was reality marble.
 
"Like that humanity argument again because I already have counterargument above. And does the universe she created look like humanity to you? Because it's not."

Your counterargument consistent of "that's completely from you" despite the comment you quoted immediately proceeding their evidence. Unless you're talking about a different point on this thread, in which case please correct me.

"Does the universe she created look like humanity to you?"

That point assumes that she created a universe to begin with. This is called circular reasoning.

I'm also not fond of "X looks like Y so X is Y" as logic; a milk snake looks like a coral snake therefore it is a coral snake.

Additionally, this assumes that something needs to look like something to be something (This needs to look like humanity to be humanity), when obviously in the Nasuverse appearances can be deceiving. I hope I don't need to list specific examples of this since it's very prevelent.

When I mean "peaceful engagement" I'm not talking about disagreeing over stats, I'm talking about personal insults thrown in both directions as seen on previous threads.

ShiroyashaGinSan said:
I'll be gone for few hours, don't close this thread, at least give me a chance to fight back.
Click to expand...
I'm not planning on closing this thread, I just want for us to discuss a specific point first before discussing much more general points.
 
I may not be the best translator as the guy whom origianlly made the post whom is a native speaker of the language, but perhaps this will help. These are only a couple of scans that i have time for as they are provided above.

1st scans = "Õ«çÕ«ÖÒü¿ÒüäÒü嵪éÕ┐ÁÒü«ÕèøÒéƵëïÒü½ÒüùÒüƒµäøÒü«Ú¡öþÄï…"ote Õ«çÕ«Ö means an actual universe. English = "Demon King of Love with the power of the concept of the universe."

2nd sca = "õ╗èÒéäÒüôÒü«Õ¥│ÕÀØÒü«ÕñºÕÑÑÒü«ÕÑÑÒü»ÒÇü þºüÒü¿ÒüäÒüåÕ«çÕ«ÖÒü½þ¡ëÒüùÒüäÒÇé" Note Õ«çÕ«Ö is used again.

English = 1.) "Now the back of the Tokugawa of the inner palace is equal to the universe that I."

2.) "Now all the way to the back of the Tokugawa, a universe equal to me."

3rd sca = "ÒüºÒüìÒü¥ÒüÖÒü¿ÒééÒÇéþºüÒü»Õ«çÕ«ÖÒü¬ÒéôÒüºÒüÖÒüïÒéëÒÇé Õ«çÕ«ÖÒü«Õà¿ÒüªÒéÆÕáòÞÉ¢Òü«þéÄÒüºþä╝ÒüìÕ░¢ÒüÅÒüÖÒü«ÒüîþºüÒÇé" Note Õ«çÕ«Ö is used yet again.

English = "I can. Because I am The/A universe. It is me who burns down everything in the universe with the flame of corruption."

4th sca = "Õ«çÕ«ÖÒüÖÒéëÞªåÒüåµäøµ¼▓Òü«þéÄÒüºÒÇüÒü┐ÒéôÒü¬ÒÇüÒü┐ÒéôÒü¬ÒÇü µÂêÕîûÒüùÒüªÒüéÒüÆÒü¥ÒüÖÒüïÒéë Òü¿Òüï" Note Õ«çÕ«Ö is used again. Another important symbol is here.

English = 1st.) " Everyone, everyone, in the flame of lust to cover even the universe I'll digest it And"

2nd.) In the flame of lust that covers even the universe, everyone, everyone, because I'll digest.
 
I'm currently nuteral to the Upgrade though I have doubts about it, currently we don't have anyone else that has feats that is comparable to Mara with the closes one being Saver true form.

If this does go through then I propose having Mara a True Form Tab with "X" "Possibly 3-A"(X being what ever we decide), the fact that there is two interpertation of the Statment is obvious and currently the discussion isn't able to truely disproove either one.

I also want to make a comment on a statment made, I want to state that I'm not trying to be mean or rude I just want to make a commen. If we are to ignore the original intent of a fictional series and just use our own interpertation then how can we be sure if the interpertation is the correct one?

If you want to anaylse something then you need a fix center other wise we will be constatnly changing the narative because the interpertation will change, normal human beings will suddenly become Higher-Dimensional beings due to an obscure comment in some part of the series.

Interpertation are good since they add to discussion but if all you do is say that your interpertaion is the correct one while blatently saying "what is intentedfrom the arthur shouldn't mean anything" then all you are doing is saying that we shouldn't trust the source material at all.

We are trying to understand what has been given to us by the creators not rewrite it cause "we don't like it", because that's all I'm hearing.

Now like i said I just wanted to make a comment, I'm still nuteral on it and honestly I'm not really interested in makeing Nasueverse 3-A, I have my interpertation and I'm happy with it, I won't try and explain it since I'm not trying to defend it.

That's all I wanted to say on the subject, I've casted my vote any currently Idon't see it changing that's all and have a good night my only request is that this ends properly and not sloppy, Nasuverse is complex and leave a lot of room for interpertaion so lets hope the one that ends up is a proper one.
 
ShiroyashaGinSan said:
Thanks Upgrade. You saved me a lot.
Click to expand...
Your welcome ^~^ i did the quick and easy ones because at the moment those are what i have time for that got straight to the immediate point of the upgrade. The others ones i will have to come back to later, unless someone does it for me.

I may need help translating Mara/Kama's profiles later.
 
Also just remembered. Kiara was the only who was able to resist Kama's Rayshift due to having Independent Manifestation skill. I think this scales to every Beast who had them like Goetia and Tiamat.

Basically Resistance to BFR for all people who has IM except Mara who doesn't have Independent Manifestation for some reason.
 
I got this from her profile so far with one of the 2 screenshots provided above.

"µòàÒü½Õ¢╝ÕÑ│Òü»Þç¬ÒéëÒü«þäíÚÖÉÒü«µäøÒüºÕà¿ÒüªÒéƵ║ÇÒüƒÒüØÒüåÒü¿ÒüÖÒéïÒÇé Õ«çÕ«Ö(õ║║Úí×)ÒüîÞç¬ÒéëÒü«µäøÒüºµ║ÇÒüƒÒüòÒéîÒéîÒü░ÒÇüÒüØÒüôÒü½Òü»õ©ìÕ┐½ Òüºþà®ÒéÅÒüùÒüäõ╗ûõ║║Òü«µäøÒü¬Òü®Õ¡ÿÕ£¿ÒüùÒü¬ÒüäÒü«ÒüáÒüïÒéëÒÇé ÒüôÒüôÒü½Õ£¿ÒéïÒü»ÒÇüÕ«çÕ«ÖÒéÆþçâÒéäÒüÖÒü╗Òü®Òü«µäøµ¼▓(Òü«þƒó)ÒéÆõ║║Úí× Òü½µî»ÒéèÒü¥ÒüÅþìúÒÇé" [ Link to original scan is here.[http:// https://i.imgur.com/rtkhpOl.png https://i.imgur.com/rtkhpOl.png] ] Take note that Õ«çÕ«Ö means an actual universe while õ║║Úí× Humanity . I believe this indicates that they are the same in short. Think of it as "The Human Universe."

English = "So she tries to fill everything with her infinite love. If the universe (humanity) is filled with one's own love, then there is no such thing as the love of another offending/or/bothersome person. Here is a beast that shakes the humanity with the lust of burning the universe."

Edit: I managed to get this off the screenshot of the other profile picture. This one was a bit more tricky.


"『Õà¿ ÕîàÕø▓Òü½þäíÕÀ«ÕêÑÒü½Òé½Òâ╝Òâ×ÒüîÞç¬Õêå(ÕêåÞ║½)ÒéÆÚÇüÒéèÞ¥╝Òü┐ÒÇüõ©Çµû╣ þÜäÒü¬µäøÒüºÕ«çÕ«ÖÒéÆþçâÒéäÒüùµ¢ñÒéëÒüÖ 』 " Take note Õ«çÕ«Ö was used again here.

English = "Kama sends Herself/himself (alter-ego) without discrimination in a seige to brun the universe with one-sided love."
 
@UpgradeMan There were a lot of CCC upgrade threads with feats that were deemed fine, but outliers. But, since we have this stuff about Kama, CCC feats should be usable now.

I think that a few people here translated and explained the meaning of "universe" to provide enough proof of 3-A to low 2-C rating. This is more of Regis not wanting to accept the feats no matter what, whatever his reasons might be. Although, I dislike his argument "you're not a fate expert". I think that people here have the ability to read and interpret feats that are provided and state their own opinion. For example, I don't remember you being a Fate expert, and yet you are free to comment here and state your opinion.
 
I mean several fate experts agree too, just tossing that out there. Extra and CCC may not be my specialty but I am pretty knowledgeable on fate otherwise. (Just don't ask me anything about Tsukuhime kek)
 
ThisIsMySwagPack said:
I am unsure about several characters being scaled.
Karna, Types and characters scaling from Types. Because it seems to me that the whole "they are the strongest" is really being streched here. But, if people are ok with it, then so be it.
Click to expand...
I do agree with this, that's why I said on my first post to not include the Types. The people who I know sclae to Kiara are Amaterasu, Sefar, ArcheType Earth and Saver. Not really sure on Karna, but one of the Ending in Extella is him beating Sefar, but that was incomplete form. Still not sure about Crimson Moon too, because Arcuied is the next Crimsoon Moon and ArcheType Earth.
 
Karna and kama are both have same origin, Vasavi shakti is stated to be able to kill God themselves, kama is not even one of the strongest Indian God, im pretty sure Vasavi shakti can kill kama
 
Yeah I know they have the same origin, but Im talking feats. Or just put it likely 3-A or something via Vasavi Shakti.
 
Kiara: Universe level to Universe level+ (Able to damage those who can hurt her. Shouldn't be far too below Beast III/L who is the universe itself and has power to burn away the universe) | Universe level to Universe level+ (Comparable to if not superior than before. Is on the level of Saver who is a God at universal scale)

Saver: Universe level to Universe level+ (Is a God at universal scale. Comparable to Kiara Sessyoi as a Bhudda who is more than enough to be comparable to Beast III/L who is the universe itself and has enough power to burn the universe)

Gilgamesh: In his first key nothing is changed except for full-powered Enuma Elish which should be At least Planet level, possibly far higher (Ea is an Anti-World Noble Phantasm, likely capable of overpowering Akhilleus Kosmos, which embodies the World. When used in Fate/strange fake, it would have destroyed the World without Enkidu's intervention, and when used by his younger self, it destroyed the Mirror World, a Reality Marble the size of Earth, and Gilgamesh's is stronger. Furthermore, as EX Anti-World Noble Phantasm, it may be comparable to Kama Avarhudda, which has exact same stat, and has power to burn away the universe) | Universe level to Universe level+ (Capable of damaging Kiara who can take Kama's flames which can burn away the universe)

MMC Emiya: Universe level toUniverse level+ (Capable of damaging Kiara who can take Kama's flames which can burn away the universe)

Nero: Universe level to Universe level+ (Capable of damaging Kiara who can take Kama's flames which can burn away the universe) | Universe level to Universe level+ ((Capable of barely damaging Sefar, draws power from the Moon Cell) | Universe level to Universe level+ (Stronger than before, comparable to Sefar, and destroyed the Velber Ark's defenses with Charitas Domus Aurora, which not even the Moon Cell could damage).

Sefar: Universe level to Universe level+ (Superior to the Moon Cell, which powered BB and Kiara Sessyoi, who could take a flame that can burn the universe, and could stop the Velber Ark when weakened), higher by absorbing energy | Universe level to Universe level+ (Her power is almost on the same level as Amaterasu herself)

Fluffy Tail: Universe level to Universe level+ (Defeated Kiara Sessyoi, who can take flames from bloodlusted Beast III/L which can burn the universe) | Universe level to Universe level+ (Capable of barely damaging Sefar, draws power from the Moon Cell) | Universe level to Universe level+ (As a Sun God and a high-class Divine Spirit, she is far above the likes of Kiara Sessyoin. In the world of Fate/Extra, only Arcueid Brunestud has a chance of bringing her down to circumstances where she could possibly be defeated, however little the chances may be)

Arcueid: Universe level to Universe level+ (As a Spirit with the status of Planet, Arcueid is above most Divine Spirits. Stronger than Kiara Sessyoi who can take flames from Kama which can burn the entire universe), likely higher (Even when weakened in the digital world and having her status reduced to god, Arcueid is still the only one in the Extra world capable of bringing Amaterasu to circumstances where its possible to defeat her, no matter how small that chance might be) | Universe level to Universe level+ (As the Earth's equivalent of an Ultimate One, Arcueid is considered above Divine Spirits and should be comparable to the likes of Amaterasu and Saver as the most powerful being native to Earth)

BB: Universe level to Universe level+ (Stated to be able to destroy the universe with confirmation that it is no hyperbole by the further narration. Has data of Earth Mother Goddess, which includes the likes of Tiamat. Can fight Gilgamesh at full power, albeit she was ultimately defeated)

Melti: Universe level to Universe level+ (Is completely untouchable to any of the Servants at the outset of the story. Is "Level 999" and is considered a threat to the likes of BB)

Passionlip: At least Mountain level (Blah blah reasoning), possibly Universe level to Universe level+ (Is stated to have higher destructive power than BB and was absorbed by Kiara Sessyoi to facilitate the latter's ascension)

Quetzalcoatl: Universe level to Universe level+ (Was considered the strongest of the Three Goddess Alliance, making her superior to Gorgon and Ereshkigal. Was able to fight Kingu who possessed the body of Enkidu, without any problems even though he possessed a Holy Grail and was stated to be stronger than Enkidu normally would be. Claims to be able to headlock any monster or divinity if she put her mind to it), higher with Piedra del Sol (Is her strongest attack and utilizes a portion of her Sun God Authority) | Universe level to Universe level+ (As an Avatar of the Sun and a Divine Spirit of great class, Quetzalcoatl is potentially as powerful as other major Divine Spirits like Amaterasu and her authority is on par with Ishtar's)

Prime Enkidu: Universe level to Universe level+ (Possesses combat power roughly equal to Gilgamesh in his prime, and its might is described as being "far beyond human comprehension". According to Shamhat, their battle was so grand that it felt as if the world was "destroyed and created seven times"), higher with Enuma Elish

Prime Solomon: Universe level to Universe level+ (Equal to Goetia, and created him, stated by the latter that only the living version of him could stop him)

Beast Goetia: Universe level to Universe level+ (Should be stronger than Mara, who is the universe itself and has power to burn the universe, due to him being a complete Beast, and her being incomplete, which even Mara herself, despite her arrogance, admitted. Easily overwhelmed the party that killed Tiamat. Stated to be "higher-dimensional". Kiara admitted that Goetia is stronger than her)

Tiamat: Universe level to Universe level+ (Should be stronger than Mara, who is the universe itself and has power to burn the universe, due to her being a complete Beast, and her being incomplete, which even Mara herself, despite her arrogance, admitted. Her monsters can harm Enkidu and managed to easily fight Quetzalcoatl)

Parvati's NP: Possibly Universe level to Universe level+ (Managed to harm Mara, who is able to burn the universe, causing her pain so much that she cries)

Vasavi Shakti: Universe level to Universe level+ (Capable of damaging Sefar who is stronger than Kiara, who can take Mara's flames, which can burn away the universe)

ORT: Universe level to Universe level+ (Considered an attack type life-form that boasts power far beyond virtually anything and is stated to be one of the strongest Types, and is even above Archetype: Earth)

Type Venus/Jupiter/Saturn: At least Multi-Continent level, possibly Universe level to Universe level+ (As a Type, it is one of the strongest beings in the solar system, making her comparable to characters like Archetype: Earth and Saver)

Slash Emperor: At least Multi-Continent level, possibly Universe level to Universe level+ (Can kill types with its slash)

Type Moon: Universe level to Universe level+ (Far stronger than the True Ancestors and is above Divine Spirits and beings as strong as them as a result. His Moon Drop should be superior to Arcueid's. His power is said to be the same as that of Archetype: Earth).

Zelretch: Universe level to Universe level+ (Defeated Crimson Moon in single combat, though it weakened him considerably and he only won because Crimson Moon did not understand Magic)

Here is the justification for all characters that are scaled if we tried to scale to all of them. All we need to do now is to pick the ones whose justifications are weak and downgrade them instead.
 
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