Jujutsu Kaisen revision - Part 1: Speed

[Dr._whiteee]

What do you think should be given? iirc someone tried it being regular rubber bullet speed and it got supersonic I think

I posted my reasoning above. Mai is ysing a magnum with apparent powder mechanism for firing the bullet, said bullet being strong enough to impact a human and send them meters away from hundreds of meters away (which no 60 m/s bullet is accomplishing). Similar rubber shells have firing speed ranging from low 200 m/s into the three hundreds which I provided. The rubber slug with a velocity of 220 m/s is a good speed to use as Mai’s are much more akin to the smaller, more aerodynamic bullets, so should be fine.

 

[Antvasima]

@Moritzva @Firestorm808 @DemonGodMitchAubin @Everything12 @Duedate8898 @Planck69 @KingTempest

Would any of you be willing to evaluate the following posts please? Nothing productive seems to happen here.

https://vsbattles.com/threads/jujutsu-kaisen-revision-part-1-speed.122259/post-4134453

https://vsbattles.com/threads/jujutsu-kaisen-revision-part-1-speed.122259/post-4134741

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

I do think High hypersonic+ is exxageratted so we agree on that point. My point is that the feat is clearly well above supersonic and into the High hypersonic range.

I doubt it since Maki is capable of beginning he reaction as soon as the bullet is fired, though wouldn't mind a calculation.

The disorientation is irrelevant. The point is that Nobara was literally sent several feet to her right by the kinetic impact of the bullet. Indicating that it is clearly not some run of the mill rubber pullet gun. Not sure what you mean by the force of impact not being directly correlated to speed? A rubber bullet is not sending a human body flying several feet unless you drastically increase it's speed or close the distance. Mai was substantially far away from Nobara which also indicates that for her to accurately hit from such a range and still conserve enough energy to knock her away, means that the bullet is carrying a heavy punch, and indicates the bullet is being propelled by power, which we clearly see is the case given the scan I linked of her barrel after firing. Also highlighted in the scan you posted showing the impact being severe enough to create a smoke cloud after Maki caught it.

Looking at a couple of subsequent panels, Nobara did get pushed back. Though this still falls back to force not being neccessarily correlated to speed, due to the existence of Cursed Energy.

The extra force can be explained with the bullets being imbued with Cursed Energy. Likewise with the extended range (though it can also be dismissed as artistic license, with the author not knowing or ignoring the range limitations of rubber bullets). There is no reason to assume enhanced speed as well.

The smoke from Maki catching the bullet is due to her hand getting burned from the bullet + friction.

The gun is of little consequence tbh and we already saw the smoke coming from the chamber that doesn't happen without power especially for that long.

Here is the speed for a rubber shell which still comes out to 220 m/s. Well outside of the 60 m/s range. Maki's bullets are also smaller and use powder so her bullets would be more akin to this product. Not to mention she is firing a magnum with a long barrel.

Yes and her bullets used powder, are clearly capped, and have feats of knocking a human several feet away from dozens of meters of range while still being able to maintain accuracy. I'm pretty sure that is all blatant evidence against this being some regular rubber bullet shooter at 60 m/s.

I am not aware of velocity being determined via. smoke. Modern gunpowder mixtures are often made to produce a lot less smoke than classical gunpowder (and are often advertised as 'smokeless'), so yes it is possible to have little potency with a lot of smoke, and lots of potency with very little smoke. The smoke just tells us that the gun has been fired.

What do you think rubber bullets use as a propellant besides powder?

I found these rubber bullets that are outfitted to Smith & Wessons, with a muzzle velocity of ~140 m/s (though with very little effective range).

X-ring rubber pistol bullets

X-ring rubber bullets have been around for more than a generation. Currently they are manufactured by the Meister Bullet & Ammunition Company. Boxes of 50 retail for around $12. These should no…

david.bookstaber.com

60 m/s is the low end; it is not clear why we should use the higher end. The bullets used were stated to be rubber bullets, and the author in the databook stated that Mai did not use rubber bullets and compared them with the squeaky hammer, so it stands to reason that they are significantly inferior in performance to normal bullets.

Doesn't it seem a bit unfair to shoot Nobara by surprise and from afar when she's holding back with her squeaky hammer? Akutami: Mai wasn't using real bullets so it wasn't really unfair. And I mean, they're all jujutsu sorcerers so the one who remains standing is the winner, no matter if they cheated or not.

If the bullets indeed looks heavy, then this implies that they are on the slower side if they are to function as less than lethal rubber bullets.

It's actually in the thread that is where I remember seeing it. Qlilopth translated it to roughly "exceed the speed of sound" regarding the blood technique. That is more what I was referring to about the speed of sound stuff, as it just means it reached speeds passing mach 1.

Piercing Blood is unrelated to Projection Sorcery though. And while Piercing Blood and Yuji's difficulty to dodge it from a distance can be used as an argument for Subsonic (though not as strong as when the less accurate translation was being used), it is an entirely separate argument that is not brought up.

Yes, because he can move at those speeds and I'm not 100% sure this is accurate based on what was posted above. But assuming your stance is correct, reaction speed and close combat speed is still not movement speed. There is a reason Dragonflies are apex bug predators, there maneuverability is ridiculous. Noaya can literally continually move at these speeds so reacting one or twice isn't enough because you constantly have to track something your body can't continuously move with. Which is why he doesn't outright blitz like Maki did with Ogi, and instead overwhelms his opponents with an onslaught.

If Maki general movements are fast enough to blitz people from a decent distance, and she is hypersonic (which is supposed to be slower than close range combat), then cutting Naoya off when he is running in circles at subsonic speed shouldn't be difficult. Projection Sorcery is relatively predictable; it prevents breaking away too much from trajectory, so the movement towards the next frame is in a straight line.

 

[Arkenis]

Still sounding like hypersonic

 

[Dr._whiteee]

I doubt it since Maki is capable of beginning he reaction as soon as the bullet is fired, though wouldn't mind a calculation.

No? Maki still had to move as the bullet was inches away from her. No matter how you slice it it's a hypersonic feat.

Looking at a couple of subsequent panels, Nobara did get pushed back. Though this still falls back to force not being neccessarily correlated to speed, due to the existence of Cursed Energy.

The extra force can be explained with the bullets being imbued with Cursed Energy. Likewise with the extended range (though it can also be dismissed as artistic license, with the author not knowing or ignoring the range limitations of rubber bullets). There is no reason to assume enhanced speed as well.

What? Nothing suggest that she is utilizing cursed energy in her bullets. That's something you would have to satisfy the burden of proof for. The only time it's mentioned is when she is creating her own bullets.

You're ignoring the feat and trying to explain it away for no sufficient reason. The gun clearly is not a low propellant type of weapon which is where the 60 m/s speed comes from.

The smoke from Maki catching the bullet is due to her hand getting burned from the bullet + friction.

Yes, something which is not happening with a 60 m/s bullet.

I am not aware of velocity being determined via. smoke. Modern gunpowder mixtures are often made to produce a lot less smoke than classical gunpowder (and are often advertised as 'smokeless'), so yes it is possible to have little potency with a lot of smoke, and lots of potency with very little smoke. The smoke just tells us that the gun has been fired.

Yes, the gun has been fired utilizing powder. A lot of low speed rubber bullets are shot out of lower qualit propellants such as Co2. The smoke here indicates she is firing the rubber bullets with powder meaning in the range of products I showed.

What do you think rubber bullets use as a propellant besides powder?

I found these rubber bullets that are outfitted to Smith & Wessons, with a muzzle velocity of ~140 m/s (though with very little effective range).

X-ring rubber pistol bullets

X-ring rubber bullets have been around for more than a generation. Currently they are manufactured by the Meister Bullet & Ammunition Company. Boxes of 50 retail for around $12. These should no…

david.bookstaber.com

60 m/s is the low end; it is not clear why we should use the higher end. The bullets used were stated to be rubber bullets, and the author in the databook stated that Mai did not use rubber bullets and compared them with the squeaky hammer, so it stands to reason that they are significantly inferior in performance to normal bullets.

This is a false equivalency. The product you are showing specifically states it's not a "less lethal" gun which is what Mai is utilizing given she is very clearly looking to incapacitate (see Nob), and is a training pistol, which is why the velocity is much lower than rubber rounds actually meant to be fired for incapacitation.

60m/s is a figure from Wikipedia which specifically states is in reference to a 1970 riot control gun that shot bullets like these
https://media.iwm.org.uk/ciim5/249/327/large_000000.jpg . That is not relevant to guns created to be "less lethal" and also benefitting from literally several decades of weapon advancement. The rubber bullets I posted earlier are less lethal rounds and well above the 60m/s figure given.

Doesn't it seem a bit unfair to shoot Nobara by surprise and from afar when she's holding back with her squeaky hammer? Akutami: Mai wasn't using real bullets so it wasn't really unfair. And I mean, they're all jujutsu sorcerers so the one who remains standing is the winner, no matter if they cheated or not.

If the bullets indeed looks heavy, then this implies that they are on the slower side if they are to function as less than lethal rubber bullets.

What? You just made this up. All the answer says is that she didn't use real bullets. Which we already knew. The mounds of evidence support Mai using less than lethal rounds for incapacitation, and there is no comparison to the hammer. The only relevant piece of info regarding the hammer is Nobara holding back and being blindsided.

If Maki general movements are fast enough to blitz people from a decent distance, and she is hypersonic (which is supposed to be slower than close range combat), then cutting Naoya off when he is running in circles at subsonic speed shouldn't be difficult. Projection Sorcery is relatively predictable; it prevents breaking away too much from trajectory, so the movement towards the next frame is in a straight line.

I don't see how this was relevant to what I said. Blitzing is an all-or-nothing thrust and her body is not able to continuously move at that pace casually. Even if the movements are "somewhat predictable" he is still not having to utilize his stamina to do so where as Maki would have to overexert her body to even try and continuously move at those speeds.

 

[Antvasima]

@Dino_Ranger_Black @JustSomeWeirdo @LordGriffin1000 @Theglassman12 @Crabwhale @GyroNutz @DarkGrath @The_Wright_Way

Would any of you be willing to evaluate the following posts please? We seem to go around in circles here.

https://vsbattles.com/threads/jujutsu-kaisen-revision-part-1-speed.122259/post-4134453

https://vsbattles.com/threads/jujutsu-kaisen-revision-part-1-speed.122259/post-4134741

 

[LordGriffin1000]

I'll give it a look in a second.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

Ok, so looking at both posts linked, I think ShadowWhoWalks brings up valid points regarding some of the calcs having criticism by some calc members, and the point about distance and the sound based attack. However, I completely lack knowledge regarding Jujutsu Kaisen so I can't really say much regarding the verse and how they treat the characters consistently in regards to their speed.

Having multiple feats would be better than statements but if said feats are questionable than that's a problem. I also see talk about bullet speed/rubber bullets, Curse Energy and other stuff in the comments but since I lack knowledge of the verse, I can't say anything about them.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thank you for the evaluation.

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

No? Maki still had to move as the bullet was inches away from her. No matter how you slice it it's a hypersonic feat.

Can you provide the panel/shot where we can calculate the inches?

What? Nothing suggest that she is utilizing cursed energy in her bullets. That's something you would have to satisfy the burden of proof for. The only time it's mentioned is when she is creating her own bullets.

You're ignoring the feat and trying to explain it away for no sufficient reason. The gun clearly is not a low propellant type of weapon which is where the 60 m/s speed comes from.

This is actually pretty easy to prove.

1- For Mai to be able to damage and exorcise Cursed Spirits with her gun, she needs to imbue Cursed Energy into her bullets.
2- It is stated that Mai regularly imbues objects with Cursed Energy to fight, refeering to her gun.

We can't use smoke to calculate bullet speed, nor does smoke indicate the potency of the propellant.

Yes, something which is not happening with a 60 m/s bullet.

Even if we disregard Cursed Energy, are there any sources about bullet velocity compared to their temprature, or that friction burns are not possible with objects moving at 60 m/s? Sounds like standard artistic license on something that is plausible.

Yes, the gun has been fired utilizing powder. A lot of low speed rubber bullets are shot out of lower qualit propellants such as Co2. The smoke here indicates she is firing the rubber bullets with powder meaning in the range of products I showed.

I mean we can have products that utilizes powder, but send projectiles at speeds between 70-100 m/s.

If we ignore range limitations, rubber bullets being designed to rapidly slow down, and rubber bullets being meant to riochett from the ground, it stands that 60 m/s is the low-end for rubber bullets even if they are powered by gunpowder.

This is a false equivalency. The product you are showing specifically states it's not a "less lethal" gun which is what Mai is utilizing given she is very clearly looking to incapacitate (see Nob), and is a training pistol, which is why the velocity is much lower than rubber rounds actually meant to be fired for incapacitation.

60m/s is a figure from Wikipedia which specifically states is in reference to a 1970 riot control gun that shot bullets like these
https://media.iwm.org.uk/ciim5/249/327/large_000000.jpg . That is not relevant to guns created to be "less lethal" and also benefitting from literally several decades of weapon advancement. The rubber bullets I posted earlier are less lethal rounds and well above the 60m/s figure given.

You make it seem that it is a rule that rubber bullets are 'meant' to be fired at much higher velocities than 140 m/s (which would increases their lethality), even though lower speeds are coherent and proven to exist.
You can have heavier projectiles with the same or lower velocity, but so far that is the closest revolver analogy where the velocity is mentioned, since rubber bullets meant for riot control are usually designed for shotguns.

The riot control gun is specifically meant to be less lethal than conventional bullets, and if it is:

1. Low-end
2. Famous example for rubber bullets

then I don't see why it shouldn't be used.

As previously shown, modern rubber bullets still operate around that speed, so the low-end persists.

What? You just made this up. All the answer says is that she didn't use real bullets. Which we already knew. The mounds of evidence support Mai using less than lethal rounds for incapacitation, and there is no comparison to the hammer. The only relevant piece of info regarding the hammer is Nobara holding back and being blindsided.

The answer also says that it is considered a fair fight to shoot an unaware person wielding a squeaky mallet, if the bullets are not real. This is a downplay for the rubber bullets.

I don't see how this was relevant to what I said. Blitzing is an all-or-nothing thrust and her body is not able to continuously move at that pace casually. Even if the movements are "somewhat predictable" he is still not having to utilize his stamina to do so where as Maki would have to overexert her body to even try and continuously move at those speeds.

If Maki is able to blitz at hypersonic speeds, and Naoya amps his speed at subsonic (making him faster than almost everyone in the series, including 15 finger Yuji), I don't see how Naoya is not overwhelmed if not outright blitzed; we are talking about a fight, not an endurance race, not that it would take long for Maki to cut him off.

 

[Antvasima]

So what are the conclusions here so far?

 

[Theendzero13]

So what are the conclusions here so far?

No conclusions yet both sides have points and no one seens convinced by the opposition

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. LordGriffin seemed to agree with ShadowWhoWalks though.

 

[Dr._whiteee]

Can you provide the panel/shot where we can calculate the inches?

Yeah hold up I'll post it here [1] [2]

This is actually pretty easy to prove.

1- For Mai to be able to damage and exorcise Cursed Spirits with her gun, she needs to imbue Cursed Energy into her bullets.
2- It is stated that Mai regularly imbues objects with Cursed Energy to fight, refeering to her gun.

Yes, she used cursed energy to kill Curses because her rubber bullets can't interact with curses. This doesn't prove she is utilizing it vs humans especially given that she isn't supposed to kill them. Shooting a normal human (which I believe you said you believed Noba was around durability wise) from that close with a regular rubber gun is dangerous enough, let alone when adding cursed energy. We also see no visual indications of her adding it. So bringing up the possibility of her imbuing it to effect power doesn't really check or and is also no evidenced.

Even if we disregard Cursed Energy, are there any sources about bullet velocity compared to their temprature, or that friction burns are not possible with objects moving at 60 m/s? Sounds like standard artistic license on something that is plausible.

It sounds like the author wanted to emphasize the bullets being rubber not meaning that they weren't being shot extremely fast, especially since it was directly to highlight the impressiveness of Maki's physical feat, which was the thematic distinction between herself and Mai being made in the seen (and largely the whole theme for Maki in that arc).

I mean we can have products that utilizes powder, but send projectiles at speeds between 70-100 m/s.

If we ignore range limitations, rubber bullets being designed to rapidly slow down, and rubber bullets being meant to riochett from the ground, it stands that 60 m/s is the low-end for rubber bullets even if they are powered by gunpowder.


You make it seem that it is a rule that rubber bullets are 'meant' to be fired at much higher velocities than 140 m/s (which would increases their lethality), even though lower speeds are coherent and proven to exist.

Yes, they typically are. Today's rubber bullet guns being sold are meant to be capable of incapacitating people from solid ranges which is why their velocities are so high. The figure from 1970's riot police is completely and utterly arbitrary a number to equalize all instances of "rubber bullets" being used. That's like picking 9mm pistol and saying all usages of "bullets" will be calced at it's muzzle velocity. Police obviously have more onus on them to not kill civilians and the guns are tailored to cause pain and thwart aggression/disperse. Personal rubber bullet guns are for self defense as "less than lethal" weapons. But makers of these guns do not have to worry about selling to organizations with regulations and thus rubber bullets in this sector are actually quite borderline lethal.

Mai sniped Noba from dozens of meters away and the hit physically moved her several feet away as she was racing towards someone with her momentum pushing forward. Mai utilizing a magnum and it is clearly her weapon of choice akin to others who use lethal weapons to fight curses, so it stands to reason her gun is for, at bare minimum, incapacitation.

If we have better comparisons and direct bullet speeds for them there is no reason not to use them.

You can have heavier projectiles with the same or lower velocity, but so far that is the closest revolver analogy where the velocity is mentioned, since rubber bullets meant for riot control are usually designed for shotguns.

I have already posted examples of rubber bullets far exceeding the riot control guns, and have explained why the "less than lethal" weaponry of today is far different than ones used by police and military. To top that off we have feats of it clearly packing much more velocity than 60m/s given Mai's shot and the bullets effect on Noba. Not sure what else is really need tbh.

The riot control gun is specifically meant to be less lethal than conventional bullets, and if it is:

1. Low-end
2. Famous example for rubber bullets

then I don't see why it shouldn't be used.

Because those are terrible metrics to use when talking about guns and bullets given the wide variety of factors that determine the speed of the projectile being launched. See my above analogy. It being famous from literally 50 years ago also has no viable bearing on it being used as the representative example for rubber bullet speeds, especially when we literally can see the bullet, the gun it's being fired from, and its feats of clearly packing much more punch than a small bullet going 60m/s.

You'd have a point if the feat in question was a statement along the lines of "Maki can react to rubber bullets!" with no explicit showing, but we literally see everything we need to determine that the rubber bullets being fired by Maki are clearly not comparable to the "famous, low end example".

As previously shown, modern rubber bullets still operate around that speed, so the low-end persists.

No. I already explained to you that using that example is a false equivalency for your last example as it was specifically a training gun you cited and explicitly mentioned it being much less impactful in the description, not to mention the speed from that alone was still 2x the speed of the 60m/s figure, even furthering downing your argument.

This example proves to me that you don't really understand the bullet physics. Not only is this example also nearly 2x the speed of the cited figure (lending even more credence to my arguments regarding self-defense vs riot control, and 50 years gap in technology) being proposed, but these are rubber ball bullets. The aerodynamics of the shot heavily affect the ball's ability to slice through air, as once again, riot police (the site sells riot control weaponry) have an onus to not actually kill people. Self defense guns do not have this problem, which is why the bullets are cylindrical like regular bullets allowing the cut more fastly through the air. We saw Maki's bullets and they were cylindrical, in addition to being shot out of the barrel of a mangum which helps the bullet gain much more speed and stay even when shooting.

The answer also says that it is considered a fair fight to shoot an unaware person wielding a squeaky mallet, if the bullets are not real. This is a downplay for the rubber bullets.

No it's not? It's literally just saying that Mai didn't mean to kill her, and that essentially all was fair in love and war. These, once again, being things we already knew. He is in no way making a comparison to Mai's rubber bullets to other rubber bullets. He is saying they aren't real bullets. So no really understand what you mean by "downplay for the rubber bullets" we already know they aren't real bullets.

If Maki is able to blitz at hypersonic speeds, and Naoya amps his speed at subsonic (making him faster than almost everyone in the series, including 15 finger Yuji), I don't see how Naoya is not overwhelmed if not outright blitzed; we are talking about a fight, not an endurance race, not that it would take long for Maki to cut him off.

He surpassed subsonic speeds. The same thing was already gone over for the blood-piercing feats. It just means he passed a benchmark. So you're a making a cap that doesn't exist, especially given Maki's causal feat discussed above, and other feats in the series such as a high tier dodging the attack when in the midst of Jogo vs Sukuna.

And none of this really addressed my point about mobility.

 

[Cyberblader90]

bump

 

[Antvasima]

If somebody writes proper explanations of each side of the argument here, I can send a notification that asks more staff members to help out with evaluating them.

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

If somebody writes proper explanations of each side of the argument here, I can send a notification that asks more staff members to help out with evaluating them.

MHS+ scaling didn't get much support. At most we can get occasional MHS+ perception speed in high-stress moments that can't get accessed at will, but not reaction or combat speed.

All but two speed calcs at Transonic and above are disputed, so the discussion is mainly on a speed amp ability that allows movement within a specified timeframe, and this timeframe implies that decently high-tier characters got blitzed by Subsonic speed when the ability was used (moving a few meters within 1/24 s). After the speedster (his father with the same ability is stated to be the second fastest character in the entire verse) declared that he will go all-out with the speed amp, the narrator afterwards states that he has "already surpassed subsonic speed", and his speed even early in the fight was a problem for a high-tier character.
Based on this:
Argument that this is not enough to cap the speed at Transonic
Argument that this caps the speed at Transonic

Finally, the cornerstone for Hypersonic scaling was a calculation about catching a rubber bullet from point-blank range, but it was pointed out in the first page that the calc was unreliable as both the manga and anime shows that in actuality the bullet was caught at a much further distance.
Dr._whiteee is suggesting that it is possible to modify the calc to circumvent the issues while still yielding similar speed. Furthermore, he is arguing that we should assume a speed much higher for the rubber bullets than the low-end (60 m/s), because the rubber bullets used appears to have higher kinetic force than real-life rubber bullets (knocking someone out and sending them back a meter or two with a headshot from a relatively long distance). I disagree with both propositions.

So that is the summary.

---

Yeah hold up I'll post it here [1] [2]

It was already discussed that the panels contradict each other if both of them occured (short of us granting either Mai or Maki teleportation power). [1] was calculated to be 1 cm away from Maki, but in [2] we see that the bullet was caught when it was much further away; though it is possible to reconcile them if [1] was a prediction Mai made when she was doing exposition about her technique. If we use [2] Maki could've moved as soon as the bullet was fired, so the panel doesn't allow us to calculate the timeframe except as a high-end.

Yes, she used cursed energy to kill Curses because her rubber bullets can't interact with curses. This doesn't prove she is utilizing it vs humans especially given that she isn't supposed to kill them. Shooting a normal human (which I believe you said you believed Noba was around durability wise) from that close with a regular rubber gun is dangerous enough, let alone when adding cursed energy. We also see no visual indications of her adding it. So bringing up the possibility of her imbuing it to effect power doesn't really check or and is also no evidenced.

It is implied that she uses normal bullets against Cursed Spirits, hence she assured Momo that she only used rubber bullets. You would have a point if Mai said "Don't worry, I didn't reinforce my rubber bullet".

She already shot Nobara a few times in her arms and torso from very short range during their first meeting. If the rubber bullet was unusually strong in the forest, then it follows that it is reinforced.
The default is to go for the low-end. If having a bit more force is not evidence for extra speed, then we need not go beyond the low-end speed.

Yes, they typically are. Today's rubber bullet guns being sold are meant to be capable of incapacitating people from solid ranges which is why their velocities are so high. The figure from 1970's riot police is completely and utterly arbitrary a number to equalize all instances of "rubber bullets" being used. That's like picking 9mm pistol and saying all usages of "bullets" will be calced at it's muzzle velocity. Police obviously have more onus on them to not kill civilians and the guns are tailored to cause pain and thwart aggression/disperse. Personal rubber bullet guns are for self defense as "less than lethal" weapons. But makers of these guns do not have to worry about selling to organizations with regulations and thus rubber bullets in this sector are actually quite borderline lethal.

Mai sniped Noba from dozens of meters away and the hit physically moved her several feet away as she was racing towards someone with her momentum pushing forward. Mai utilizing a magnum and it is clearly her weapon of choice akin to others who use lethal weapons to fight curses, so it stands to reason her gun is for, at bare minimum, incapacitation.

If we have better comparisons and direct bullet speeds for them there is no reason not to use them.

So was Mai using rubber bullets meant to incapacitate, or rubber bullets that are a bit less lethal than conventional ammo for stronger self-defense argument in court?
If it is the former, the low-end (what we should use) is still 60 m/s. Shotguns used to fire rubber bullets are often more commonly used to fire lethal ammunition.

I have already posted examples of rubber bullets far exceeding the riot control guns, and have explained why the "less than lethal" weaponry of today is far different than ones used by police and military. To top that off we have feats of it clearly packing much more velocity than 60m/s given Mai's shot and the bullets effect on Noba. Not sure what else is really need tbh.

But the low-end still remains unraised, an we should still use low-ends. It is against wiki rules to calculate speed from kinetic energy. If you find it a priority to solve inconsistency between velocity and kinetic energy (which is very common in fiction. For example we can have Tier 8 pistols, but this is no excuse to assume the performance of this fictional pistol's bullet velocity is faster than in real life) in this one instance, then this can easily be done with Cursed Energy.

 

[Cyberblader90]

Jujutsu Kaisen: Sukuna Speed Feats

vsbattles.fandom.com

was this calc accepted

 

[Antvasima]

MHS+ scaling didn't get much support. At most we can get occasional MHS+ perception speed in high-stress moments that can't get accessed at will, but not reaction or combat speed.

All but two speed calcs at Transonic and above are disputed, so the discussion is mainly on a speed amp ability that allows movement within a specified timeframe, and this timeframe implies that decently high-tier characters got blitzed by Subsonic speed when the ability was used (moving a few meters within 1/24 s). After the speedster (his father with the same ability is stated to be the second fastest character in the entire verse) declared that he will go all-out with the speed amp, the narrator afterwards states that he has "already surpassed subsonic speed", and his speed even early in the fight was a problem for a high-tier character.
Based on this:
Argument that this is not enough to cap the speed at Transonic
Argument that this caps the speed at Transonic

Finally, the cornerstone for Hypersonic scaling was a calculation about catching a rubber bullet from point-blank range, but it was pointed out in the first page that the calc was unreliable as both the manga and anime shows that in actuality the bullet was caught at a much further distance.
Dr._whiteee is suggesting that it is possible to modify the calc to circumvent the issues while still yielding similar speed. Furthermore, he is arguing that we should assume a speed much higher for the rubber bullets than the low-end (60 m/s), because the rubber bullets used appears to have higher kinetic force than real-life rubber bullets (knocking someone out and sending them back a meter or two with a headshot from a relatively long distance). I disagree with both propositions.

So that is the summary.

I don't think that our staff will understand the full context of this discussion from what is written above.

 

[PrinceofPein]

I don't think that our staff will understand the full context of this discussion from what is written above.

He linked two arguments from.the both sides

 

[Arkenis]

Jujutsu Kaisen: Sukuna Speed Feats

vsbattles.fandom.com

was this calc accepted

Which one? The first I believe was more acceptable from what i remember and the second had one had one disagreement and nothing else. Was just accepted but only human perception was so hhs.

 

[Antvasima]

MHS+ scaling didn't get much support. At most we can get occasional MHS+ perception speed in high-stress moments that can't get accessed at will, but not reaction or combat speed.

All but two speed calcs at Transonic and above are disputed, so the discussion is mainly on a speed amp ability that allows movement within a specified timeframe, and this timeframe implies that decently high-tier characters got blitzed by Subsonic speed when the ability was used (moving a few meters within 1/24 s). After the speedster (his father with the same ability is stated to be the second fastest character in the entire verse) declared that he will go all-out with the speed amp, the narrator afterwards states that he has "already surpassed subsonic speed", and his speed even early in the fight was a problem for a high-tier character.
Based on this:
Argument that this is not enough to cap the speed at Transonic
Argument that this caps the speed at Transonic

Finally, the cornerstone for Hypersonic scaling was a calculation about catching a rubber bullet from point-blank range, but it was pointed out in the first page that the calc was unreliable as both the manga and anime shows that in actuality the bullet was caught at a much further distance.
Dr._whiteee is suggesting that it is possible to modify the calc to circumvent the issues while still yielding similar speed. Furthermore, he is arguing that we should assume a speed much higher for the rubber bullets than the low-end (60 m/s), because the rubber bullets used appears to have higher kinetic force than real-life rubber bullets (knocking someone out and sending them back a meter or two with a headshot from a relatively long distance). I disagree with both propositions.

So that is the summary.

Okay. I will make an attempt.

@DarkGrath @The_Wright_Way @Moritzva @Everything12 @Duedate8898 @Planck69 @KingTempest

What do you think about this? Please take note that there are two linked comments above that you need to read through as well to get a better understanding of what is going on here.

 

[Cyberblader90]

Which one? The first I believe was more acceptable from what i remember and the second had one had one disagreement and nothing else. Was just accepted but only human perception was so hhs.

second

 

[Arkenis]

second

Both are accepted just for human perception iirc

 

[Dr._whiteee]

It was already discussed that the panels contradict each other if both of them occured (short of us granting either Mai or Maki teleportation power). [1] was calculated to be 1 cm away from Maki, but in [2] we see that the bullet was caught when it was much further away; though it is possible to reconcile them if [1] was a prediction Mai made when she was doing exposition about her technique. If we use [2] Maki could've moved as soon as the bullet was fired, so the panel doesn't allow us to calculate the timeframe except as a high-end.

Uhm, not really sure why you are trying to convolute the feat. She literally moved her head to the side and caught the bullet by accelerating her hand. This is a basic reaction to something flying by one's hand. Not to mention you are literally harping on what could be a very slight artist error of scaling, which happens across literally all manga.

The bullet panel clearly gives us a distance to work with as that is the panel directly being shown by the author to be the distance it came from hitting her. Literally any movement she made off-panel would still be bare hypersonic given this. This argument comes off as really disingenuous.

Especially when she literally parried [2] and dodged all of the six first bullets from short range with ease, only being taken by surprise by the last one due to it being a real bullet and Maki only accounting for the six rubber in her barrel.

Your last argument makes no sense. Maki is stationary as the bullet approaches her. Anything that happens prior to that explicit zoom in we get matters not, as we have the distance between her and the bullet travelling towards her, and can plug in a speed.

It is implied that she uses normal bullets against Cursed Spirits, hence she assured Momo that she only used rubber bullets. You would have a point if Mai said "Don't worry, I didn't reinforce my rubber bullet".

None of that has literally anything to do with the context of this argument. The point is that she has to utilize cursed energy with her weapons to affect spirits. Which makes sense, given they are spirits.

That is a completely separate topic from her adding cursed energy to her bullets to hit people she isn't trying to kill. There is literally no indication she utilizes cursed energy with her rubber bullets. Once again, it was brought up to signify that Maki had no cursed energy and was still a much better fighter than her sister, who predominantly just amped her bullets with Cursed energy because that's all she could do. Context.

She already shot Nobara a few times in her arms and torso from very short range during their first meeting. If the rubber bullet was unusually strong in the forest, then it follows that it is reinforced.

Not really this is an assumption on your part. I could easily make the case that Nobara utilized curse reinforcement when shot from close range, and didn't when caught off guard and attack thus she was impacted much more severely.

Especially when we are given a visual indication as to when cursed energy is amping a projectile such as the case with Kamo's arrows

The default is to go for the low-end. If having a bit more force is not evidence for extra speed, then we need not go beyond the low-end speed.

No it's not.
1.) As a matter of practice low ends are used as accurate barometers for various qualities of feats. They are used to establish a realistic feat for low-end performances for things when a more explicit number cannot be gauged. They are defaulted to specifically when no viable comparison is given. This is not at all the case here. We know what the bullets look like, we know what they are comprised of, we know what gun its being shot out of, and we know the gun is used for incapacitation. Given how bullet speed inherently works, it's absolutely ludicrous to say that we should equalize this particular gun's performance with a gun from 50 years ago that suits a completely different purpose than the one here, using completely different ammo. So I whole heartedly disagree with your first statement.

The gun and speed you are referencing are slugs fired out of low propellant 40mm launchers. You can't equate to any weapon that can propel rubber bullets for obvious reasons. Here is an example of what that gun looks like and the size of ammo that is fired from it.

I shouldn't have to explain to you why non low propellant, non riot, real magum, conical shaped bullets, would shoot much faster than this.

2.) Except, it is. A bullet's force is directly related to its mass and velocity. I literally explained to you time and time again why the comparison is invalid and you have yet to actually properly address my points outside of "we just use the low end".

So was Mai using rubber bullets meant to incapacitate, or rubber bullets that are a bit less lethal than conventional ammo for stronger self-defense argument in court?
If it is the former, the low-end (what we should use) is still 60 m/s. Shotguns used to fire rubber bullets are often more commonly used to fire lethal ammunition.

1.) What?
2.) I already explained why less than lethal lines up more with the evidence presented, ESPECIALLY given the bullet being used.
3.) Why do you keep ignoring arguments? Those shotguns fire rubber ball bullets, which are not as lethal (or fast) as smaller, conical bullets.

Here you can find the types of bullets utilized by cops. Here is a self-defense replica. Notice all of those bullets are either round, or fired out of completely different firing mechanisms than regular guns/have shells that are extremely large.

To make matters worse for your argument, remember my piece about the 60m/s figure being for the low propellant 40mm launcher? Well you literally just proved yourself wrong, as buckshot rubber bullets being shot from a shotgun, are actually traveling around 240m/s

Even Rubber Ball shooting hand guns powered by CO2 reach up to 134 m/s.

And the source you quoted, which specifically beings with the following warning "These should not be confused with “less lethal” or riot-control projectiles. Rather, these are reusable primer-powered training bullets. I tested both .38 and .44 caliber versions." Was listed as 137m/s within 5 feet.

This huge rubber slug (which is the slowest thing on the page for rubber ammunition) is 220 m/s and if you notice when looking at their catalog, they don't even put the velocities for the realistic rubber bullet rounds, likely because it would be borderline illegal to sell these faster rounds with a specific velocity stated.

Let's look at Mai again in light of this information.

• Shooting from a magnum. Check.
• Not low propellant rounds or firing mechanism dictated by the power of the magnum and her utilizing a powder mechanism. Bullets are not sponge padded, or spherical and look exactly like regular bullets. Check.
• Strong enough to knock Nobara off her feet from dozens of meters away. Check.

Quite frankly, the argument for 60m/s is ridiculous, and nowhere near next to accurate based on literally all factors we can derive information from given the scene.

But the low-end still remains unraised, an we should still use low-ends.

When we lack information or the subject of the low end or it is something relatively uniform in nature. Not equalizing all fire mechanisms, launchers, and bullets to a figure given from 50 years based on outdated technology and being completely incomparable to the gun being discussed in this thread.

It is against wiki rules to calculate speed from kinetic energy.

Good thing I never argued that.

If you find it a priority to solve inconsistency between velocity and kinetic energy (which is very common in fiction. For example we can have Tier 8 pistols, but this is no excuse to assume the performance of this fictional pistol's bullet velocity is faster than in real life) in this one instance, then this can easily be done with Cursed Energy.

You're strawmanning me. I utilized the Nobara scene to display why 60m/s figure was dumb. Not to derive an explicit KE, or try and directly compare it to a specific speed. That is why I offered the plethora of examples placing the speed well above 200m/s.

 

[Antvasima]

It seems like no staff members have been willing to help out here so far. That is unfortunate.

Perhaps a better single post easily understood explanation would help in that regard?

 

[KingTempest]

Sorry, this thread has just had too many topics being argued and too many arguments to form a good valid unbiased thought.

Every page something new is being argued

 

[Antvasima]

Hmm. I would greatly appreciate if somebody can write a proper organised explanations post, to help KingTempest and other staff members evaluate this.

 

[Arkenis]

I mean the main thing here is the Naoya statement; it essentially is an argument about the speed scaling of the verse.

One side is in favor of having the verse be majority subsonic to transonic with only Naoya and very few others being transonic up to the Shibuya Incident and later.

The other side is arguing that, due to the amount of calcs that have characters early on in the series being already supersonic and hypersonic (maki bullet catching feat), the statement from Naoya should not be used to limit the verse's speed early on.

The issues with the Naoya statement are: For starters the statement is "So she was already at a disadvantage in a protracted fight againt Naoya, who had already surpassed subsonic speed" in reference this

Some are interpreting this as Naoya is only transonic or he had just became transonic when reaching his max speed, others say that it is just saying he's surpassed subsonic prior to his max speed. The most consistent interpretation is that Naoya already surpassed subsonic given the huge amount of calcs in favor of characters being above subsonic or being subsonic early in the series.

Another argument in regards to this is that Maki is having trouble with him but the problem is, she's wounded and the scan states this to be a reason why she shouldn't be continuing the fight. This means a healthy Maki (no blood loss and injuries) would be able to keep up with Naoya's regular speeds and max speed. So Maki having trouble is not a reason to hold the verse to subsonic at all.

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Next is the issue with Maki's bullet catch. From what I gathered the main issue is merely that an artistic error or artistic choice from Gege seems to imply her arm was not at a certain distance as the scan implies. The reason this isn't an issue, is because even if we give this interpretation the feat still comes out to Hypersonic

I do think High hypersonic+ is exxageratted so we agree on that point. My point is that the feat is clearly well above supersonic and into the High hypersonic range.

The disorientation is irrelevant. The point is that Nobara was literally sent several feet to her right by the kinetic impact of the bullet. Indicating that it is clearly not some run of the mill rubber pullet gun. Not sure what you mean by the force of impact not being directly correlated to speed? A rubber bullet is not sending a human body flying several feet unless you drastically increase it's speed or close the distance. Mai was substantially far away from Nobara which also indicates that for her to accurately hit from such a range and still conserve enough energy to knock her away, means that the bullet is carrying a heavy punch, and indicates the bullet is being propelled by power, which we clearly see is the case given the scan I linked of her barrel after firing. Also highlighted in the scan you posted showing the impact being severe enough to create a smoke cloud after Maki caught it.

The gun is of little consequence tbh and we already saw the smoke coming from the chamber that doesn't happen without power especially for that long.

Here is the speed for a rubber shell which still comes out to 220 m/s. Well outside of the 60 m/s range. Maki's bullets are also smaller and use powder so her bullets would be more akin to this product. Not to mention she is firing a magnum with a long barrel.



Yes and her bullets used powder, are clearly capped, and have feats of knocking a human several feet away from dozens of meters of range while still being able to maintain accuracy. I'm pretty sure that is all blatant evidence against this being some regular rubber bullet shooter at 60 m/s.

It's actually in the thread that is where I remember seeing it. Qlilopth translated it to roughly "exceed the speed of sound" regarding the blood technique. That is more what I was referring to about the speed of sound stuff, as it just means it reached speeds passing mach 1.

Yes, because he can move at those speeds and I'm not 100% sure this is accurate based on what was posted above. But assuming your stance is correct, reaction speed and close combat speed is still not movement speed. There is a reason Dragonflies are apex bug predators, there maneuverability is ridiculous. Noaya can literally continually move at these speeds so reacting one or twice isn't enough because you constantly have to track something your body can't continuously move with. Which is why he doesn't outright blitz like Maki did with Ogi, and instead overwhelms his opponents with an onslaught.

^ Here you can read more about this.

 

[Guardian_Doge]

I think Dr.White makes a lot of sense to me, everything they're proposing is logical and even use many scans from the source material as primary evidence for their claims. I'd be fine with what they are proposing.

 

[Antvasima]

@LordGriffin1000 @KingTempest

Would you be willing to evaluate the following post please?

https://vsbattles.com/threads/jujutsu-kaisen-revision-part-1-speed.122259/post-4192988

 

[Muuuuh]

The discussion is about speed ok, but we cannot have different measures. If what the author says is taken more seriously than feats and calcs, we would have to elevate some characters to solar system level by the author's statements as well, which would leave the verse a mess

 

[KingTempest]

Dr. White and Nelliels make sense to me

 

[PrinceofPein]

@LordGriffin1000 @KingTempest

Would you be willing to evaluate the following post please?

https://vsbattles.com/threads/jujutsu-kaisen-revision-part-1-speed.122259/post-4192988

This post is biased and only took a side of the argument

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Can somebody provide a summary of the other side as well then please?

 

[PrinceofPein]

Okay. Can somebody provide a summary of the other side as well then, please?

Yes I will do that in a few hours
I will give the most detailed explanation of the arguments to the best of my ability

 

[LordGriffin1000]

I'll wait till Pain to12 replies.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out.

 

[PrinceofPein]

Thank you for helping out.

So here are the messages that I think summarised out both sides arguments,
For a short summary : this is it

MHS+ scaling didn't get much support. At most we can get occasional MHS+ perception speed in high-stress moments that can't get accessed at will, but not reaction or combat speed.

All but two speed calcs at Transonic and above are disputed, so the discussion is mainly on a speed amp ability that allows movement within a specified timeframe, and this timeframe implies that decently high-tier characters got blitzed by Subsonic speed when the ability was used (moving a few meters within 1/24 s). After the speedster (his father with the same ability is stated to be the second fastest character in the entire verse) declared that he will go all-out with the speed amp, the narrator afterwards states that he has "already surpassed subsonic speed", and his speed even early in the fight was a problem for a high-tier character.
Based on this:
Argument that this is not enough to cap the speed at Transonic
Argument that this caps the speed at Transonic

Finally, the cornerstone for Hypersonic scaling was a calculation about catching a rubber bullet from point-blank range, but it was pointed out in the first page that the calc was unreliable as both the manga and anime shows that in actuality the bullet was caught at a much further distance.
Dr._whiteee is suggesting that it is possible to modify the calc to circumvent the issues while still yielding similar speed. Furthermore, he is arguing that we should assume a speed much higher for the rubber bullets than the low-end (60 m/s), because the rubber bullets used appears to have higher kinetic force than real-life rubber bullets (knocking someone out and sending them back a meter or two with a headshot from a relatively long distance). I disagree with both propositions.

For a long summary
here they are:

Making the argument for Subsonic scaling from Projection Sorcery.

Let's look at the statement with context:

Some observations:

• Naoya states that he is going to attack Maki at his maximum speed; this is prior to the statement about surpassing subsonic speed.
• It is previously stated that there is a limit to the acceleration allowed by Projection Sorcery, but speed can build up. So Naoya can't instantly move at top speed after a single frame, but he can increase his speed gradually. The timeframe to complete a movement is constant: 1/24 fps, so he would have to gradually increase the distance he is moving per frame to move faster.
• Maki is overwhelmed by Naoya moving a few meters in 1/24 s, and he runs circles around her. This is Maki getting overwhelmed by what is objectively subsonic speed.
• The narrator lists multiple reasons Maki is at a disadvantage... and this includes Naoya surpassing subsonic speed. Just in the previous panel Naoya said that he is going to move at top speed; he is one of the fastest characters and he used a speed amp. It is absurd to claim that every mid-tier casually surpasses subsonic speed.
• We are shown Naoya doing a mach cone while charging in. This is associated with Naoya using Projection Sorcery at top speed, rather than something every mid-tier character can casually do.

Maki is still top-tier even while wounded as she was able to blitz Ohgi, etc. So almost every character downscales from her. She is at a disadvantage in a protracted fight, which means that she is able to perform well in a non-protracted fight even while fatigued.


Earlier we've seen Naoya demonstrating the ability to blitz both Choso and 15 Fingers Yuji, by moving a few meters within 1/24 s... which is objectively subsonic.

Yuta failed to blitz Yuji despite stating that he attempted to do so. So this anti-feat applies to the top-tiers.

It is mentioned that Dagon is far superior to Juzo. Let's see how he performed:

He got blitzed by objectively subsonic speed (movement of a few meters within 1/24 s).

---

We don't have to assume timeframes and such. The Projection Sorcery technique literally gives us a canonical timeframe which we should use over headcanons and guesstimates... and this canonical timeframe suggests that top-tiers are subsonic to transonic when they are attempting to move very fast.

Uh pretty sure that the subsonic stuff has been debunked. Stopping a rubber bullet from inches in front of your face is still well out of that range, especially since she is using a realistic magnum and small bullet-like pellets, not balls or large nerf gun-like bullets used in the really slow pellet guns. The bullets had enough power to completely floor Nobara and move her several feet as she was running towards witch girl. Also notice the smoke coming from the chamber indicating it was powder.

For reference, she is likely using a traumatic gun, or gun that fires at high speeds utilizing rubber bullets. These can be found online and have muzzles speed. This one for a mini magnum 38 has a muzzle velocity of 380 m/s. This is pre-kaio ken Maki.

The "superseding sound" thing was already addressed with the databook IIRC. JJK is pretty well out of that territory this seems pretty obvious. As for the frame dude there is a difference between movement speed and reaction speed in addition to his technique being a hax. Just cause characters can react at top end to hypersonic speeds doesn't mean they won't struggle mightily with someone casually moving at that speed. Batters can hit a 90mph baseball, doesn't mean they wouldn't struggle to defend against it blitzing around them at that speed constantly.

Don't agree with the blackflash stuff and think Maki feat should be recalced.

Bullet catch, in both anime and manga, was debunked here early in the thread (High Hypersonic+ scale) as severly exagerated.

Being disorientated by a rubber bullet to the head does not indicated being sent flying several feet (don't think this is shown or implied in the panel); and even if the kinetic force of the bullet was enchanced, this does not mean that its speed was. It is also of note that Nobara does not know passive full-body reinforcement, and according to the author her ability to kick away a 80 kg guy was an error due to his weight.

So we can't assume that Nobara is superhuman in durability, especially when she is caught by surprise.

It is the standard for guns to be powered by gas pressure, especially via. gunpowder cartiges.

The weapon you are citing is labeled to fire lead bullets, not rubber ones, and doesn't resemble the gun Mai is using.

Pellet Type	Lead
Velocity	380 m/s

She is using one of the generic magnum revolvers you see in media, which can be outfitted with both normal and rubber bullets. This is also indicated by her reassuring her classmate Momo that she was using rubber bullets.
Rubber bullets, by design in order to reduce lethality, are relatively slow or made to rapidly lose velocity.


Most of the databook is translated here and here

Jujutsu Kaisen Official Fanbook ENG

FOREWORD: The World Trigger and Kimetsu no Yaiba fan books brilliantly reflect their creators’ dedication to the core of their stories (in my subjective opinion). So what is the point of a Jujutsu Kaisen fan book that doesn’t have the densely elaborate foundations of World Trigger, or the intim...

docs.google.com

JUJUTSU KAISEN OFFICIAL FANBOOK

TABLE OF CONTENTS Akutami-sensei Preface................................................................................................................................1 Table of Contents.................................................................................................................

docs.google.com

If the relevant statement that provides relavant information about supersonic speed exists in the databook but is untranslated, can you highlight which section the statement is in?

The thing is that when Naoya was blitzing around Maki, he was objectively moving at subsonic speed if we use the canonical timeframe and measure the distance of his movements (which falls far short than the distance required for supersonic speed).

I do think High hypersonic+ is exxageratted so we agree on that point. My point is that the feat is clearly well above supersonic and into the High hypersonic range.

The disorientation is irrelevant. The point is that Nobara was literally sent several feet to her right by the kinetic impact of the bullet. Indicating that it is clearly not some run of the mill rubber pullet gun. Not sure what you mean by the force of impact not being directly correlated to speed? A rubber bullet is not sending a human body flying several feet unless you drastically increase it's speed or close the distance. Mai was substantially far away from Nobara which also indicates that for her to accurately hit from such a range and still conserve enough energy to knock her away, means that the bullet is carrying a heavy punch, and indicates the bullet is being propelled by power, which we clearly see is the case given the scan I linked of her barrel after firing. Also highlighted in the scan you posted showing the impact being severe enough to create a smoke cloud after Maki caught it.

The gun is of little consequence tbh and we already saw the smoke coming from the chamber that doesn't happen without power especially for that long.

Here is the speed for a rubber shell which still comes out to 220 m/s. Well outside of the 60 m/s range. Maki's bullets are also smaller and use powder so her bullets would be more akin to this product. Not to mention she is firing a magnum with a long barrel.



Yes and her bullets used powder, are clearly capped, and have feats of knocking a human several feet away from dozens of meters of range while still being able to maintain accuracy. I'm pretty sure that is all blatant evidence against this being some regular rubber bullet shooter at 60 m/s.

It's actually in the thread that is where I remember seeing it. Qlilopth translated it to roughly "exceed the speed of sound" regarding the blood technique. That is more what I was referring to about the speed of sound stuff, as it just means it reached speeds passing mach 1.

Yes, because he can move at those speeds and I'm not 100% sure this is accurate based on what was posted above. But assuming your stance is correct, reaction speed and close combat speed is still not movement speed. There is a reason Dragonflies are apex bug predators, there maneuverability is ridiculous. Noaya can literally continually move at these speeds so reacting one or twice isn't enough because you constantly have to track something your body can't continuously move with. Which is why he doesn't outright blitz like Maki did with Ogi, and instead overwhelms his opponents with an onslaught.

I doubt it since Maki is capable of beginning he reaction as soon as the bullet is fired, though wouldn't mind a calculation.


Looking at a couple of subsequent panels, Nobara did get pushed back. Though this still falls back to force not being neccessarily correlated to speed, due to the existence of Cursed Energy.

The extra force can be explained with the bullets being imbued with Cursed Energy. Likewise with the extended range (though it can also be dismissed as artistic license, with the author not knowing or ignoring the range limitations of rubber bullets). There is no reason to assume enhanced speed as well.

The smoke from Maki catching the bullet is due to her hand getting burned from the bullet + friction.




I am not aware of velocity being determined via. smoke. Modern gunpowder mixtures are often made to produce a lot less smoke than classical gunpowder (and are often advertised as 'smokeless'), so yes it is possible to have little potency with a lot of smoke, and lots of potency with very little smoke. The smoke just tells us that the gun has been fired.

What do you think rubber bullets use as a propellant besides powder?

I found these rubber bullets that are outfitted to Smith & Wessons, with a muzzle velocity of ~140 m/s (though with very little effective range).

X-ring rubber pistol bullets

X-ring rubber bullets have been around for more than a generation. Currently they are manufactured by the Meister Bullet & Ammunition Company. Boxes of 50 retail for around $12. These should no…

david.bookstaber.com

60 m/s is the low end; it is not clear why we should use the higher end. The bullets used were stated to be rubber bullets, and the author in the databook stated that Mai did not use rubber bullets and compared them with the squeaky hammer, so it stands to reason that they are significantly inferior in performance to normal bullets.

Doesn't it seem a bit unfair to shoot Nobara by surprise and from afar when she's holding back with her squeaky hammer? Akutami: Mai wasn't using real bullets so it wasn't really unfair. And I mean, they're all jujutsu sorcerers so the one who remains standing is the winner, no matter if they cheated or not.

If the bullets indeed looks heavy, then this implies that they are on the slower side if they are to function as less than lethal rubber bullets.


Piercing Blood is unrelated to Projection Sorcery though. And while Piercing Blood and Yuji's difficulty to dodge it from a distance can be used as an argument for Subsonic (though not as strong as when the less accurate translation was being used), it is an entirely separate argument that is not brought up.


If Maki general movements are fast enough to blitz people from a decent distance, and she is hypersonic (which is supposed to be slower than close range combat), then cutting Naoya off when he is running in circles at subsonic speed shouldn't be difficult. Projection Sorcery is relatively predictable; it prevents breaking away too much from trajectory, so the movement towards the next frame is in a straight line.

No? Maki still had to move as the bullet was inches away from her. No matter how you slice it it's a hypersonic feat.

What? Nothing suggest that she is utilizing cursed energy in her bullets. That's something you would have to satisfy the burden of proof for. The only time it's mentioned is when she is creating her own bullets.

You're ignoring the feat and trying to explain it away for no sufficient reason. The gun clearly is not a low propellant type of weapon which is where the 60 m/s speed comes from.

Yes, something which is not happening with a 60 m/s bullet.

Yes, the gun has been fired utilizing powder. A lot of low speed rubber bullets are shot out of lower qualit propellants such as Co2. The smoke here indicates she is firing the rubber bullets with powder meaning in the range of products I showed.

This is a false equivalency. The product you are showing specifically states it's not a "less lethal" gun which is what Mai is utilizing given she is very clearly looking to incapacitate (see Nob), and is a training pistol, which is why the velocity is much lower than rubber rounds actually meant to be fired for incapacitation.

60m/s is a figure from Wikipedia which specifically states is in reference to a 1970 riot control gun that shot bullets like these
https://media.iwm.org.uk/ciim5/249/327/large_000000.jpg . That is not relevant to guns created to be "less lethal" and also benefitting from literally several decades of weapon advancement. The rubber bullets I posted earlier are less lethal rounds and well above the 60m/s figure given.

What? You just made this up. All the answer says is that she didn't use real bullets. Which we already knew. The mounds of evidence support Mai using less than lethal rounds for incapacitation, and there is no comparison to the hammer. The only relevant piece of info regarding the hammer is Nobara holding back and being blindsided.

I don't see how this was relevant to what I said. Blitzing is an all-or-nothing thrust and her body is not able to continuously move at that pace casually. Even if the movements are "somewhat predictable" he is still not having to utilize his stamina to do so where as Maki would have to overexert her body to even try and continuously move at those speeds.

Can you provide the panel/shot where we can calculate the inches?


This is actually pretty easy to prove.

1- For Mai to be able to damage and exorcise Cursed Spirits with her gun, she needs to imbue Cursed Energy into her bullets.
2- It is stated that Mai regularly imbues objects with Cursed Energy to fight, refeering to her gun.

We can't use smoke to calculate bullet speed, nor does smoke indicate the potency of the propellant.


Even if we disregard Cursed Energy, are there any sources about bullet velocity compared to their temprature, or that friction burns are not possible with objects moving at 60 m/s? Sounds like standard artistic license on something that is plausible.


I mean we can have products that utilizes powder, but send projectiles at speeds between 70-100 m/s.

If we ignore range limitations, rubber bullets being designed to rapidly slow down, and rubber bullets being meant to riochett from the ground, it stands that 60 m/s is the low-end for rubber bullets even if they are powered by gunpowder.


You make it seem that it is a rule that rubber bullets are 'meant' to be fired at much higher velocities than 140 m/s (which would increases their lethality), even though lower speeds are coherent and proven to exist.
You can have heavier projectiles with the same or lower velocity, but so far that is the closest revolver analogy where the velocity is mentioned, since rubber bullets meant for riot control are usually designed for shotguns.

The riot control gun is specifically meant to be less lethal than conventional bullets, and if it is:

1. Low-end
2. Famous example for rubber bullets

then I don't see why it shouldn't be used.

As previously shown, modern rubber bullets still operate around that speed, so the low-end persists.


The answer also says that it is considered a fair fight to shoot an unaware person wielding a squeaky mallet, if the bullets are not real. This is a downplay for the rubber bullets.


If Maki is able to blitz at hypersonic speeds, and Naoya amps his speed at subsonic (making him faster than almost everyone in the series, including 15 finger Yuji), I don't see how Naoya is not overwhelmed if not outright blitzed; we are talking about a fight, not an endurance race, not that it would take long for Maki to cut him off.

Yeah hold up I'll post it here [1] [2]

Yes, she used cursed energy to kill Curses because her rubber bullets can't interact with curses. This doesn't prove she is utilizing it vs humans especially given that she isn't supposed to kill them. Shooting a normal human (which I believe you said you believed Noba was around durability wise) from that close with a regular rubber gun is dangerous enough, let alone when adding cursed energy. We also see no visual indications of her adding it. So bringing up the possibility of her imbuing it to effect power doesn't really check or and is also no evidenced.

It sounds like the author wanted to emphasize the bullets being rubber not meaning that they weren't being shot extremely fast, especially since it was directly to highlight the impressiveness of Maki's physical feat, which was the thematic distinction between herself and Mai being made in the seen (and largely the whole theme for Maki in that arc).

Yes, they typically are. Today's rubber bullet guns being sold are meant to be capable of incapacitating people from solid ranges which is why their velocities are so high. The figure from 1970's riot police is completely and utterly arbitrary a number to equalize all instances of "rubber bullets" being used. That's like picking 9mm pistol and saying all usages of "bullets" will be calced at it's muzzle velocity. Police obviously have more onus on them to not kill civilians and the guns are tailored to cause pain and thwart aggression/disperse. Personal rubber bullet guns are for self defense as "less than lethal" weapons. But makers of these guns do not have to worry about selling to organizations with regulations and thus rubber bullets in this sector are actually quite borderline lethal.

Mai sniped Noba from dozens of meters away and the hit physically moved her several feet away as she was racing towards someone with her momentum pushing forward. Mai utilizing a magnum and it is clearly her weapon of choice akin to others who use lethal weapons to fight curses, so it stands to reason her gun is for, at bare minimum, incapacitation.

If we have better comparisons and direct bullet speeds for them there is no reason not to use them.

I have already posted examples of rubber bullets far exceeding the riot control guns, and have explained why the "less than lethal" weaponry of today is far different than ones used by police and military. To top that off we have feats of it clearly packing much more velocity than 60m/s given Mai's shot and the bullets effect on Noba. Not sure what else is really need tbh.

Because those are terrible metrics to use when talking about guns and bullets given the wide variety of factors that determine the speed of the projectile being launched. See my above analogy. It being famous from literally 50 years ago also has no viable bearing on it being used as the representative example for rubber bullet speeds, especially when we literally can see the bullet, the gun it's being fired from, and its feats of clearly packing much more punch than a small bullet going 60m/s.

You'd have a point if the feat in question was a statement along the lines of "Maki can react to rubber bullets!" with no explicit showing, but we literally see everything we need to determine that the rubber bullets being fired by Maki are clearly not comparable to the "famous, low end example".

No. I already explained to you that using that example is a false equivalency for your last example as it was specifically a training gun you cited and explicitly mentioned it being much less impactful in the description, not to mention the speed from that alone was still 2x the speed of the 60m/s figure, even furthering downing your argument.

This example proves to me that you don't really understand the bullet physics. Not only is this example also nearly 2x the speed of the cited figure (lending even more credence to my arguments regarding self-defense vs riot control, and 50 years gap in technology) being proposed, but these are rubber ball bullets. The aerodynamics of the shot heavily affect the ball's ability to slice through air, as once again, riot police (the site sells riot control weaponry) have an onus to not actually kill people. Self defense guns do not have this problem, which is why the bullets are cylindrical like regular bullets allowing the cut more fastly through the air. We saw Maki's bullets and they were cylindrical, in addition to being shot out of the barrel of a mangum which helps the bullet gain much more speed and stay even when shooting.

No it's not? It's literally just saying that Mai didn't mean to kill her, and that essentially all was fair in love and war. These, once again, being things we already knew. He is in no way making a comparison to Mai's rubber bullets to other rubber bullets. He is saying they aren't real bullets. So no really understand what you mean by "downplay for the rubber bullets" we already know they aren't real bullets.

He surpassed subsonic speeds. The same thing was already gone over for the blood-piercing feats. It just means he passed a benchmark. So you're a making a cap that doesn't exist, especially given Maki's causal feat discussed above, and other feats in the series such as a high tier dodging the attack when in the midst of Jogo vs Sukuna.

And none of this really addressed my point about mobility.

It was already discussed that the panels contradict each other if both of them occured (short of us granting either Mai or Maki teleportation power). [1] was calculated to be 1 cm away from Maki, but in [2] we see that the bullet was caught when it was much further away; though it is possible to reconcile them if [1] was a prediction Mai made when she was doing exposition about her technique. If we use [2] Maki could've moved as soon as the bullet was fired, so the panel doesn't allow us to calculate the timeframe except as a high-end.

It is implied that she uses normal bullets against Cursed Spirits, hence she assured Momo that she only used rubber bullets. You would have a point if Mai said "Don't worry, I didn't reinforce my rubber bullet".

She already shot Nobara a few times in her arms and torso from very short range during their first meeting. If the rubber bullet was unusually strong in the forest, then it follows that it is reinforced.
The default is to go for the low-end. If having a bit more force is not evidence for extra speed, then we need not go beyond the low-end speed.

So was Mai using rubber bullets meant to incapacitate, or rubber bullets that are a bit less lethal than conventional ammo for stronger self-defense argument in court?
If it is the former, the low-end (what we should use) is still 60 m/s. Shotguns used to fire rubber bullets are often more commonly used to fire lethal ammunition.

But the low-end still remains unraised, an we should still use low-ends. It is against wiki rules to calculate speed from kinetic energy. If you find it a priority to solve inconsistency between velocity and kinetic energy (which is very common in fiction. For example we can have Tier 8 pistols, but this is no excuse to assume the performance of this fictional pistol's bullet velocity is faster than in real life) in this one instance, then this can easily be done with Cursed Energy.

Uhm, not really sure why you are trying to convolute the feat. She literally moved her head to the side and caught the bullet by accelerating her hand. This is a basic reaction to something flying by one's hand. Not to mention you are literally harping on what could be a very slight artist error of scaling, which happens across literally all manga.

The bullet panel clearly gives us a distance to work with as that is the panel directly being shown by the author to be the distance it came from hitting her. Literally any movement she made off-panel would still be bare hypersonic given this. This argument comes off as really disingenuous.

Especially when she literally parried [2] and dodged all of the six first bullets from short range with ease, only being taken by surprise by the last one due to it being a real bullet and Maki only accounting for the six rubber in her barrel.

Your last argument makes no sense. Maki is stationary as the bullet approaches her. Anything that happens prior to that explicit zoom in we get matters not, as we have the distance between her and the bullet travelling towards her, and can plug in a speed.

None of that has literally anything to do with the context of this argument. The point is that she has to utilize cursed energy with her weapons to affect spirits. Which makes sense, given they are spirits.

That is a completely separate topic from her adding cursed energy to her bullets to hit people she isn't trying to kill. There is literally no indication she utilizes cursed energy with her rubber bullets. Once again, it was brought up to signify that Maki had no cursed energy and was still a much better fighter than her sister, who predominantly just amped her bullets with Cursed energy because that's all she could do. Context.

Not really this is an assumption on your part. I could easily make the case that Nobara utilized curse reinforcement when shot from close range, and didn't when caught off guard and attack thus she was impacted much more severely.

Especially when we are given a visual indication as to when cursed energy is amping a projectile such as the case with Kamo's arrows

No it's not.
1.) As a matter of practice low ends are used as accurate barometers for various qualities of feats. They are used to establish a realistic feat for low-end performances for things when a more explicit number cannot be gauged. They are defaulted to specifically when no viable comparison is given. This is not at all the case here. We know what the bullets look like, we know what they are comprised of, we know what gun its being shot out of, and we know the gun is used for incapacitation. Given how bullet speed inherently works, it's absolutely ludicrous to say that we should equalize this particular gun's performance with a gun from 50 years ago that suits a completely different purpose than the one here, using completely different ammo. So I whole heartedly disagree with your first statement.

The gun and speed you are referencing are slugs fired out of low propellant 40mm launchers. You can't equate to any weapon that can propel rubber bullets for obvious reasons. Here is an example of what that gun looks like and the size of ammo that is fired from it.

I shouldn't have to explain to you why non low propellant, non riot, real magum, conical shaped bullets, would shoot much faster than this.

2.) Except, it is. A bullet's force is directly related to its mass and velocity. I literally explained to you time and time again why the comparison is invalid and you have yet to actually properly address my points outside of "we just use the low end".

1.) What?
2.) I already explained why less than lethal lines up more with the evidence presented, ESPECIALLY given the bullet being used.
3.) Why do you keep ignoring arguments? Those shotguns fire rubber ball bullets, which are not as lethal (or fast) as smaller, conical bullets.

Here you can find the types of bullets utilized by cops. Here is a self-defense replica. Notice all of those bullets are either round, or fired out of completely different firing mechanisms than regular guns/have shells that are extremely large.

To make matters worse for your argument, remember my piece about the 60m/s figure being for the low propellant 40mm launcher? Well you literally just proved yourself wrong, as buckshot rubber bullets being shot from a shotgun, are actually traveling around 240m/s

Even Rubber Ball shooting hand guns powered by CO2 reach up to 134 m/s.

And the source you quoted, which specifically beings with the following warning "These should not be confused with “less lethal” or riot-control projectiles. Rather, these are reusable primer-powered training bullets. I tested both .38 and .44 caliber versions." Was listed as 137m/s within 5 feet.

This huge rubber slug (which is the slowest thing on the page for rubber ammunition) is 220 m/s and if you notice when looking at their catalog, they don't even put the velocities for the realistic rubber bullet rounds, likely because it would be borderline illegal to sell these faster rounds with a specific velocity stated.

Let's look at Mai again in light of this information.

• Shooting from a magnum. Check.
• Not low propellant rounds or firing mechanism dictated by the power of the magnum and her utilizing a powder mechanism. Bullets are not sponge padded, or spherical and look exactly like regular bullets. Check.
• Strong enough to knock Nobara off her feet from dozens of meters away. Check.

Quite frankly, the argument for 60m/s is ridiculous, and nowhere near next to accurate based on literally all factors we can derive information from given the scene.

When we lack information or the subject of the low end or it is something relatively uniform in nature. Not equalizing all fire mechanisms, launchers, and bullets to a figure given from 50 years based on outdated technology and being completely incomparable to the gun being discussed in this thread.

Good thing I never argued that.

You're strawmanning me. I utilized the Nobara scene to display why 60m/s figure was dumb. Not to derive an explicit KE, or try and directly compare it to a specific speed. That is why I offered the plethora of examples placing the speed well above 200m/s.

Anyway that is the last of the arguments,
Both of them agreed the maki feat should be recalculated so it all boils down to what speed the rubber bullets are, to get a pretty good look at maki feat, you can read this two messages.
So afterwards we can now decide if we should use the author definitive statement or a calculated feat
From my own point of view author's statements must always take precedence

I actually argue that both Maki's bullet catch calculations for the manga and anime versions are invalid, which would collapse the entire scale.

While there is a shot of the bullet being very close to Maki's forehead, this appears to be Mai's imagination while the ability is being explained. This is apparent in the actual bullet-catch scene where Maki's arm is stretched forward significantly further than the supposed distance between the bullet and Maki's forehead:

In the manga Maki's head is off-screen even though it is supposedly one (1) cm away from the bullet.

So the scale is unreliable.

Also, Hanami was absolutely trying to kill people. Though hiding his killing intent was important for stealth.

Well that's that