Jujutsu Kaisen revision - Part 1: Speed

[Muuuuh]

Very interesting that you only used the image that it was already removed, instead of putting the entire feat, where they show the bullet getting very close to the head, in the same way that occurs in the anime.
Her being off screen in the image you posted only further confirms her reaction speed, that she was able to pull all of this away from the bullet before intercepting

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

Uhm, not really sure why you are trying to convolute the feat. She literally moved her head to the side and caught the bullet by accelerating her hand. This is a basic reaction to something flying by one's hand. Not to mention you are literally harping on what could be a very slight artist error of scaling, which happens across literally all manga.

The bullet panel clearly gives us a distance to work with as that is the panel directly being shown by the author to be the distance it came from hitting her. Literally any movement she made off-panel would still be bare hypersonic given this. This argument comes off as really disingenuous.

Especially when she literally parried [2] and dodged all of the six first bullets from short range with ease, only being taken by surprise by the last one due to it being a real bullet and Maki only accounting for the six rubber in her barrel.

Your last argument makes no sense. Maki is stationary as the bullet approaches her. Anything that happens prior to that explicit zoom in we get matters not, as we have the distance between her and the bullet travelling towards her, and can plug in a speed.

This brings alot of questions:

1- What is the evidence that Maki moved her head first to the side and then caught the bullet, and are you aware of anyone before you who had the same observation?
2- If Maki moved her head to the side and [1] is a representation of reality, then why can't we see Maki's tilted head if it is less than 1 cm away from the bullet?
3- If Maki moved her head away from danger, then what is the point of catching the bullet?
4- What kind of off-screen movements are you hypothesizing Maki did? It sounds like teleportation to me if both [1] and [2] occured in reality. Did she do a backflip away from the bullet and then turn her head to the side and then catch the bullet for example, and are we going to use such hypothesized movements in the calculation?
5- From what I understand, you are saying that Panel [2] doesn't play any role in determining the timeframe and we just plug in from [1]?

Making movement to catch a bullet when it is 1 cm away is different than making movement to parry or dodge it when it is much further away.

You said you want to modify the calc, but I don't see any meaningful difference from your position and the calc itself. It seems that the calc was unaware of the inconsistency, but you are acknowledging the inconsistency and saying we should ignore it anyway.

My position is very simple:
1- Don't ignore the more recent panel where the feat is actually occurring
2- Harmonize between all relevant panels to eliminate inconsistency

None of that has literally anything to do with the context of this argument. The point is that she has to utilize cursed energy with her weapons to affect spirits. Which makes sense, given they are spirits.

That is a completely separate topic from her adding cursed energy to her bullets to hit people she isn't trying to kill. There is literally no indication she utilizes cursed energy with her rubber bullets. Once again, it was brought up to signify that Maki had no cursed energy and was still a much better fighter than her sister, who predominantly just amped her bullets with Cursed energy because that's all she could do. Context.

Your argued that Mai uses rubber bullets for both incapacitating humans and killing Cursed Spirits, implying that adding Cursed Energy to the rubber bullets makes them certified to be lethal.

Yes, she used cursed energy to kill Curses because her rubber bullets can't interact with curses. This doesn't prove she is utilizing it vs humans especially given that she isn't supposed to kill them.

But she normally just uses regular bullets against Cursed Spirits and nothing indicates she uses rubber bullets against them, and nothing implies adding her low-level Cursed Energy to rubber bullets makes them unviable for incapacitation.
So that has very much to do with the argument. If you agree that there is nothing incoherent about the rubber bullets being reinforced to incapitate humans, we can move on.

Not really this is an assumption on your part. I could easily make the case that Nobara utilized curse reinforcement when shot from close range, and didn't when caught off guard and attack thus she was impacted much more severely.

Especially when we are given a visual indication as to when cursed energy is amping a projectile such as the case with Kamo's arrows

Pointing that it is a possibility doesn't challenge my position at all; which is that it is possible the bullets were reinforced and it is possible they weren't (which is an extremely tame position), followed by the position that your conclusion is unsupported in either case.
You are the one proclaiming that the bullets were definitely not reinforced, which means that you need to demonstrate that your position is not an assumption or mere possibility.

I mean we can show panels where larger amped projectiles are not drawn with Cursed Energy

No it's not.
1.) As a matter of practice low ends are used as accurate barometers for various qualities of feats. They are used to establish a realistic feat for low-end performances for things when a more explicit number cannot be gauged. They are defaulted to specifically when no viable comparison is given. This is not at all the case here. We know what the bullets look like, we know what they are comprised of, we know what gun its being shot out of, and we know the gun is used for incapacitation. Given how bullet speed inherently works, it's absolutely ludicrous to say that we should equalize this particular gun's performance with a gun from 50 years ago that suits a completely different purpose than the one here, using completely different ammo. So I whole heartedly disagree with your first statement.

The gun and speed you are referencing are slugs fired out of low propellant 40mm launchers. You can't equate to any weapon that can propel rubber bullets for obvious reasons. Here is an example of what that gun looks like and the size of ammo that is fired from it.

I shouldn't have to explain to you why non low propellant, non riot, real magum, conical shaped bullets, would shoot much faster than this.

It is of note that later on you state that you are not trying to gauge an explicit number, yet you imply that you have an explicit number here.

If there is no explicit number or any sort of standardized ammunition, and 60 m/s rubber bullets exists from 50 years ago till today, then that is the low-end.

Also we don't really know what the bullets are composed of. Sometimes rubber bullets are fully made from rubber, sometimes they have a non-rubber core, and sometimes 'rubber bullets' is used as an umbrella term for less letal kinetic impact projectiles which are made from all sort of materials like plastic.

Ironically you had no issue referencing slugs when they had higher speed, but when shown slugs with lower speed you complain about their shape. If you have a database of smaller sized rubber bullet models that shows that the low-end of their velocity as a rule is at a certain speed then that is one thing, but as far as we know so far the general rule for rubber bullets is that the low-end for rubber bullet velocity is 60 m/s (and yes they can be much higher, often with limitations such as rapid loss of velocity or requirement to riochet on the ground, but that is not the low-end). This is the closest thing I could find:

As previously explained, smoke tells us absolutely nothing about the potency of the propellant; you can have a strong propellant with little to no smoke, and a weak propellant the produces lots of smoke. So you have yet to substantiate assumptions about the propellant.
The rubber bullets not having a blunt nose and with smaller surface area increases the risk of penetration, and they have less leeway to be faster.

2.) Except, it is. A bullet's force is directly related to its mass and velocity. I literally explained to you time and time again why the comparison is invalid and you have yet to actually properly address my points outside of "we just use the low end".

Literally the opposite with how we treat fiction in the site.

From the Kinetic Energy Feats page:

Do not calculate speed from kinetic energy: The kinetic energy an object was calculated to possess, in any way whatsoever, should not be considered as related through its speed. While the formula technically can be used to relate those values in both direction this is disregarded in practice. One reason for this is that fiction in general differentiates between the attack potency and the speed of a character. Another reason is that it returns unrealistic values, as even a Small City level+ punch would already have Relativistic+ speed. Out of similar reasons mass should also not be calculated from it.

Not sure why you think it is persuasive to point at high-ends as if they invalidate the existence of the low-ends (I can easily bring at least half a dozen examples of rubber bullets with velocities less than 100 m/s), and the exact same dissimilarites used in an attempt to invalidate to low-ends would invalidate the high-ends you are using as an argument.

Let's look at Mai again in light of this information.

• Shooting from a magnum. Check.
• Not low propellant rounds or firing mechanism dictated by the power of the magnum and her utilizing a powder mechanism. Bullets are not sponge padded, or spherical and look exactly like regular bullets. Check.
• Strong enough to knock Nobara off her feet from dozens of meters away. Check.

Rubber bullets are often fired from shotguns which are also capable of firing conventional ammunition.
No info regarding the power of the propellant. Being shaped like regular bullets increases penetration risk, which can be alleviated by reducing the bullet's speed.
There are verses with regular guns with Tier 8 feats, but we can't assume that they fire bullets faster than regular guns.

Good thing I never argued that.

Me: We shouldn't use extra force as evidence for more speed. You: Except, it is. A bullet's force is directly related to its mass and velocity.

Saying that you are just using rough guestimation to figure out that the bullet is faster than such and such m/s, instead of using more detailed calculations. makes it worse.

You're strawmanning me. I utilized the Nobara scene to display why 60m/s figure was dumb. Not to derive an explicit KE, or try and directly compare it to a specific speed. That is why I offered the plethora of examples placing the speed well above 200m/s.

It is only dumb if you assume that we can guess the speed from kinetic energy in fiction.
There are also examples of rubber bullets well below 200 m/s. Should we ignore them?

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

Some are interpreting this as Naoya is only transonic or he had just became transonic when reaching his max speed, others say that it is just saying he's surpassed subsonic prior to his max speed. The most consistent interpretation is that Naoya already surpassed subsonic given the huge amount of calcs in favor of characters being above subsonic or being subsonic early in the series.

Another argument in regards to this is that Maki is having trouble with him but the problem is, she's wounded and the scan states this to be a reason why she shouldn't be continuing the fight. This means a healthy Maki (no blood loss and injuries) would be able to keep up with Naoya's regular speeds and max speed. So Maki having trouble is not a reason to hold the verse to subsonic at all.

How do you deal with the 1/24 s per movement canonical timeframe, which implies that high-tier characters were being blitzed by subsonic speed? If we use the canonical timeframe to make a bunch of subsonic calculations, wouldn't they be more reliable than other calculations?
Also, doesn't the context and drawn mach cone imply that Naoya did something impressive he previously didn't do thanks to the speed amp provided by his ability?

Also, as I mentioned all but two (Maki vs Ogi, Geto vs 2nd year students) of the calculations above subsonic+ have very questionable assumptions. So we need to examine the quality before we look at the quantity.

Maki and Naoya are faster than almost every character in the verse; at the top of the speed hierarchy. Even if Maki roughly scales to Naoya, she still acts as a ceiling.

---

Very interesting that you only used the image that it was already removed, instead of putting the entire feat, where they show the bullet getting very close to the head, in the same way that occurs in the anime.
Her being off screen in the image you posted only further confirms her reaction speed, that she was able to pull all of this away from the bullet before intercepting

I already described it (supposedly 1 cm away from Maki's head), and people are much more familiar with it than the later part I highlighted, and it is shown in the anime scan anyway.

She is leaning forward though, not pulling away. Assuming we use the 1 cm distance as a timeframe, did she teleport?

---

The discussion is about speed ok, but we cannot have different measures. If what the author says is taken more seriously than feats and calcs, we would have to elevate some characters to solar system level by the author's statements as well, which would leave the verse a mess

Out of topic, but I think you are talking about the ^2.5 Black Flash exponent misconception.
The unit is "Cursed Energy"; unlike with simple multpliers we can't just plug in an exponent used for a particular unit with a different unit.

If we use ^2.5 with 100 Joules, we get 100000 Joules, which is a big increase. But if we covert 100 joules to a unit of Gigatons of TNT (2.3901E-17), and apply ^2.5 we will get something massive smaller/weaker instead (2.7928022E-42).
So ^2.5 is only to be used with the unit of "Cursed Energy", but we don't know how that translates to conventional real life units. Though it can be argued that a x5 multplier is reasonable since the author decided that Sorcerers start with a "Cursed Energy" value of 2 (since 1^2.5 = 1), and 2^2.5 = 5.657.

 

[Antvasima]

So is it enough if I ask our staff members to evaluate the following post, or should I link to another one as well?

https://vsbattles.com/threads/jujutsu-kaisen-revision-part-1-speed.122259/post-4195283

 

[PrinceofPein]

So is it enough if I ask our staff members to evaluate the following post, or should I link to another one as well?

https://vsbattles.com/threads/jujutsu-kaisen-revision-part-1-speed.122259/post-4195283

That should be enough, the other one is for the calc group member that would recalc the feat

 

[PowerToScale]

I'm a bit late since I've been a bit busy, but I already made my points about the speed for jjk (Below) and notes about the feats issues.

Alright to begin

I disagree with downgrading the verse to subsonic/transonic speed for the following reasons

First Point
The first reason is feats contradict the statement. Yes, statements are usually all go to in most cases. However, statements can be disregarded if they do not match with the story. In this case we have 8 calcs that disagree with subsonic speeds. Listed below. (Sukuna’s 15 finger feat is not part of it).

Yes, small number of feats don’t mean much, but 8 feats is not small. This more feats than most verses have. It quite clear that subsonic doesn’t match up with what’s happening in the verse. It very evident that statement contradicts what is happening and is out shadowed by 9 feats. These feats happen quite early in the series as well. The feats were argued against earlier in the thread; however, most arguments were about the way of calcing which are used across the entire wiki and others had no real basis towards them.

Second Point
My second reason involves three characters. These characters are the principle of Kyoto, Inumaki and Urahime. I bring these 3 up as all three of these are individuals who have sounds attacks.

Principle of Kyoto (Sound attacks from guitar)
Urahime (Cursed technique involves singing)
Inumaki cursed speech (Speaks)

In terms of the statement against anything current speeds, it suggest that no character up to that point was above subsonic speeds. However, these three individuals aren't any special characters. They haven never been regarded special for anything, most definitely their speeds or attacks speeds. Which is weird for characters who are supposedly faster than the entire cast, despite never showing anything above them. There are even characters like Yuji who is noted for his speed by hanami, despite hanami fighting inumaki early and not taking him seriously. It is also worth to mention that the principles sound attacks have also been perceived, reacted to and blocked by Juzo, a jobber character himself.



Third Point
This is the statement that is being referred:



My third point is the statement itself misunderstood by many, but first, Naoya's technique. First Naoya's technique. Naoya's (same as Naobito's) technique allows him to set a predetermined path of movement for one second, however his movements in that path for one second are broken down into 24 frames. However, once a path is set it can be broken otherwise result in one second of being frozen. However, it is revealed by Naoya that having the technique constantly on, it increases your speed continuously.



The statement in question is that Naoya “had already surpassed subsonic speeds”, past tense. Naoya prior to fighting Maki at top speeds had already surpassed subsonic speeds in his fight with her earlier. Throughout the fight he was already above subsonic speeds and was continuously growing his speed as it went on. Not that he just surpassed subsonic speeds. When it states that Maki is at a disadvantage, it is because of her extremes loss of blood and injuries are affecting her and due to Naoya's continuous growth in speed Maki isn't able to win a projected fight. this is backed up by the fast these statements (Naoya growing continuously and Maki disadvantage).

To make is easier to understand:

Naoya does not surpass Subsonic speeds in the moment of that statement, it is referring to his speed prior in the fight, having directly saying “had already surpassed subsonic speeds”. past tense, which Maki is able to keep up with in the fight. This is because of his continuous growth in speed with his technique. which comes directly before the statement about Maki. This refers to her condition as giving her a disadvantage in along fight because she isn't able to hold out much longer, and is in trouble of Naoya's growth in speed. The statement refers to his surpassing subsonic speeds as benchmark in how fast he is growing, Naoya merely activating his technique is already surpassing subsonic speeds.

That's what it means. This itself doesn't refer to everyone being below subsonic speeds.

Conclusion
To summaries up what is being said

-There are many feats in the series that contradict the notion of current characters being subsonic speeds. While statements are usually the go to, they can be dismissed when it doesn't match. There are 8 feats that contradict it ranging from the beginning to the current times of the series.

-There are established sound attack users in the series. These characters are never regard forthere speed or attack speeds. With such being Inumaki, who fought Hanami, hanami not taking him seriously, however taking Yuji seriously and noting him for his speed after fight inumaki. There are also jobber characters perceiving, reacting and blocking the principles attacks which are sound.

-The statement is misunderstood by many, it is referring to Maki at a disadvantage due to injuries affecting her. She isn't able to win and long fight with Naoya due to him continuously growing in speed, which the "had already surpassed subsonic speeds" refers to him doing so prior in the fight as benchmark for him growing in speed. Which inherently doesn't make other characters in subsonic either.

---

Bullet Speed argument​

I have no real opinion on the speed of the bullets, so you can put me down as neutral for that one.

---

I already described it (supposedly 1 cm away from Maki's head), and people are much more familiar with it than the later part I highlighted, and it is shown in the anime scan anyway.

She is leaning forward though, not pulling away. Assuming we use the 1 cm distance as a timeframe, did she teleport?

I know that your argument for the scene be "imagination" , however, this argument is heavily unsupported besides personal interpretations, while there are many more realistic interpretations than it being "imagination".

Firstly, the feat is an adaptation of the feat in the manga were she catches the bullet within centimeters of it being close to her face, which has no indication of it being imagination. Additionally we also see the bullet travel to her face too. You're argue because it seems that her hand is further away from her face than the bullet lead to believe it is not real. This is can be argued due to angle and position of the scene too, making it look like how it is. This wouldn't devalue the feat but an issue with the animation staff deciding to use poor angles and position. Although, that isn't the case.

Instead of automatically saying the most ridiculous interpretation, such as she magical teleported, look at what happened. A bullet was shot that was going to hurt if not kill Maki, it was inches form her face and she caught the bullet in her hand. What happens when something comes at you? You grab it and mover it out of the way. When someone try's to to slap you, you don't just grab the hand, you also move it away from yourself to keep your self out of harm like any normal human reaction.

That's what Maki did here, she grabs the bullet and moves it away from herself, which is why the hand is further out that when the bullet was grabbed, it also makes absolute sense as her hands momentum and force would also push the bullet back as she grabbed. Maki isn't magically teleporting or the scene is all in someone's mind, but Maki grabs the bullet t hat was in her face and in doing so pushes the bullet away from her face even further as a natural reaction that any human would have when faced with something hitting them.

---

A new thread that may change/alter speeds or the current arguments in the work​

Upon researching, I have something that is going to change JJK scaling, not just for speed, but for other areas too, hence a new thread. This more than likely will affect some arguments a little but not majorly. So I wouldn't really say to halt discussion or anything. idk when I will make it but if lucky I could get it done by tomorrow maybe.

---

The feats​

I also have scans stuffy ready to recalc and calc new feats, but waiting on the conclusion of the bullet speed debate that is happening.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

My stance on this hasn't changed, and honestly this thread seems to have gone on for a while with constant back and forth. Since there is talk about re doing some calcs I suggest those be done and like before, I have no opinion on the bullet speed arguments.

If the new calcs are solid/consistent, and place the verse at higher speed than I'd agree but as of right now, I still agree with ShadowWhoWalks.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out LordGriffin.

@GyroNutz @DarkGrath @The_Wright_Way @Moritzva @Everything12 @Duedate8898 @Planck69 @KingTempest

Would any of you be willing to evaluate the following post please?

https://vsbattles.com/threads/jujutsu-kaisen-revision-part-1-speed.122259/post-4195283

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

I know that your argument for the scene be "imagination" , however, this argument is heavily unsupported besides personal interpretations, while there are many more realistic interpretations than it being "imagination".

Firstly, the feat is an adaptation of the feat in the manga were she catches the bullet within centimeters of it being close to her face, which has no indication of it being imagination. Additionally we also see the bullet travel to her face too. You're argue because it seems that her hand is further away from her face than the bullet lead to believe it is not real. This is can be argued due to angle and position of the scene too, making it look like how it is. This wouldn't devalue the feat but an issue with the animation staff deciding to use poor angles and position. Although, that isn't the case.

Instead of automatically saying the most ridiculous interpretation, such as she magical teleported, look at what happened. A bullet was shot that was going to hurt if not kill Maki, it was inches form her face and she caught the bullet in her hand. What happens when something comes at you? You grab it and mover it out of the way. When someone try's to to slap you, you don't just grab the hand, you also move it away from yourself to keep your self out of harm like any normal human reaction.

That's what Maki did here, she grabs the bullet and moves it away from herself, which is why the hand is further out that when the bullet was grabbed, it also makes absolute sense as her hands momentum and force would also push the bullet back as she grabbed. Maki isn't magically teleporting or the scene is all in someone's mind, but Maki grabs the bullet t hat was in her face and in doing so pushes the bullet away from her face even further as a natural reaction that any human would have when faced with something hitting them.

First of all, don't lump the whole thing onto the anime.
The inconsistency exists in BOTH the manga and the anime. The scene in the anime adaption is inconsistent because the scene in the manga is inconsistent.
And the manga gives us two inconsistent panels from the same angle facing the side of the bullet, so it is not a matter of what seems to be, nor can we blame it on visual illusions.

At minimum the distance between Maki and the bullet is transposed by a factor of 15.

Mai making a prediction is simply the most straight-forward way to harmonize the two panels. The second most straight-forward way is that the author had a change of heart regarding how the feat happens, in which case the more recent panel where the feat is occuring takes priority. If you have better 'personal interpretations', let's see them.

That's what Maki did here, she grabs the bullet and moves it away from herself, which is why the hand is further out that when the bullet was grabbed, it also makes absolute sense as her hands momentum and force would also push the bullet back as she grabbed. Maki isn't magically teleporting or the scene is all in someone's mind, but Maki grabs the bullet t hat was in her face and in doing so pushes the bullet away from her face even further as a natural reaction that any human would have when faced with something hitting them.

That's what Maki did here, she grabs the bullet and moves it away from herself, which is why the hand is further out that when the bullet was grabbed, it also makes absolute sense as her hands momentum and force would also push the bullet back as she grabbed. Maki isn't magically teleporting or the scene is all in someone's mind, but Maki grabs the bullet t hat was in her face and in doing so pushes the bullet away from her face even further as a natural reaction that any human would have when faced with something hitting them.

I mean you made a whole headcanon based on the anime footage, but as we see from the manga, the bullet was already significantly further away from Maki before she touched or grabbed it.
And Maki was leaning forward while catching the bullet, so saying that the two panels are consistent requires gymnastics in more ways than one.

Even in the anime, it is shown that Maki caught the bullet in one swift movement and had her arm extended forward afterwards, which is not possible if the bullet was a couple of cms away from her face.

 

[Theendzero13]

First of all, don't lump the whole thing onto the anime.
The inconsistency exists in BOTH the manga and the anime. The scene in the anime adaption is inconsistent because the scene in the manga is inconsistent.
And the manga gives us two inconsistent panels from the same angle facing the side of the bullet, so it is not a matter of what seems to be, nor can we blame it on visual illusions.

At minimum the distance between Maki and the bullet is transposed by a factor of 15.

Mai making a prediction is simply the most straight-forward way to harmonize the two panels. The second most straight-forward way is that the author had a change of heart regarding how the feat happens, in which case the more recent panel where the feat is occuring takes priority. If you have better 'personal interpretations', let's see them.


I mean you made a whole headcanon based on the anime footage, but as we see from the manga, the bullet was already significantly further away from Maki before she touched or grabbed it.
And Maki was leaning forward while catching the bullet, so saying that the two panels are consistent requires gymnastics in more ways than one.

Even in the anime, it is shown that Maki caught the bullet in one swift movement and had her arm extended forward afterwards, which is not possible if the bullet was a couple of cms away from her face.

For me the diference in maki positioning is just her moving her body together with her arm to catch the bullet, some people do that is a muscular reaction depending on factors like positioning and yada yeda

That being said if you wanna use the anime as evidence for a low-end were maki arm started moving when the bullet got fired that is okay i guess , but the anime version of the bullet looks way more like a stell bullet than a rubber one

 

[Arkenis]

How do you deal with the 1/24 s per movement canonical timeframe, which implies that high-tier characters were being blitzed by subsonic speed? If we use the canonical timeframe to make a bunch of subsonic calculations, wouldn't they be more reliable than other calculations?
Also, doesn't the context and drawn mach cone imply that Naoya did something impressive he previously didn't do thanks to the speed amp provided by his ability?

Also, as I mentioned all but two (Maki vs Ogi, Geto vs 2nd year students) of the calculations above subsonic+ have very questionable assumptions. So we need to examine the quality before we look at the quantity.

Maki and Naoya are faster than almost every character in the verse; at the top of the speed hierarchy. Even if Maki roughly scales to Naoya, she still acts as a ceiling.

---

I already described it (supposedly 1 cm away from Maki's head), and people are much more familiar with it than the later part I highlighted, and it is shown in the anime scan anyway.

She is leaning forward though, not pulling away. Assuming we use the 1 cm distance as a timeframe, did she teleport?

---

Out of topic, but I think you are talking about the ^2.5 Black Flash exponent misconception.
The unit is "Cursed Energy"; unlike with simple multpliers we can't just plug in an exponent used for a particular unit with a different unit.

If we use ^2.5 with 100 Joules, we get 100000 Joules, which is a big increase. But if we covert 100 joules to a unit of Gigatons of TNT (2.3901E-17), and apply ^2.5 we will get something massive smaller/weaker instead (2.7928022E-42).
So ^2.5 is only to be used with the unit of "Cursed Energy", but we don't know how that translates to conventional real life units. Though it can be argued that a x5 multplier is reasonable since the author decided that Sorcerers start with a "Cursed Energy" value of 2 (since 1^2.5 = 1), and 2^2.5 = 5.657.

the 1/24 is just a timeframe in which they can move with a predetermined set of movements, it doesn’t mean they are capped at that speed. Others have addressed this before, it’s not a reason to cap the speed.

 

[Arkenis]

Anyway, can we stop restarting old arguments? Can we just wait for mods to decide on what they believe to be the most reasonable? I just want the verse to have more characters on the site rn so this speed thing is just getting in the way.

 

[Theendzero13]

I guess let everything for the mods is the best , every side already repetead the same arguments so many and there is clearly not an normal user agreement happening

 

[PowerToScale]

First of all, don't lump the whole thing onto the anime.
The inconsistency exists in BOTH the manga and the anime. The scene in the anime adaption is inconsistent because the scene in the manga is inconsistent.
And the manga gives us two inconsistent panels from the same angle facing the side of the bullet, so it is not a matter of what seems to be, nor can we blame it on visual illusions.

At minimum the distance between Maki and the bullet is transposed by a factor of 15.

Mai making a prediction is simply the most straight-forward way to harmonize the two panels. The second most straight-forward way is that the author had a change of heart regarding how the feat happens, in which case the more recent panel where the feat is occuring takes priority. If you have better 'personal interpretations', let's see them.

Incorrect Maki's body is leaning to the side. In the manga Maki's body is leaning to the side in which she moved to catch the bullet and move it out of the way. You're trying to argue that her moving along with her body to the side in which when she catches the bullet her head is no present is it being inconsistent, while purposely misconstruing events and purposely ignore basic human motion and movement to force the agenda of baseless assumption that everything happened in someone's head. Of courses her head isn't present as we she moved to along with her body, it's literally.

Bullet in front of Maki -> Maki's hand catching Bullet -> Maki's body leaning in motion with the way she moved to catch the bullet and move it out of the way.

There was no change of heart from the author or Mai's prediction, none are present, because the whole feat happens as above. Bullet i front of Maki -> Maki catches bullet (Maki no present in panel) -> Maki leaning in motion with her with her body movement to catch and move the bullet.

I mean you made a whole headcanon based on the anime footage, but as we see from the manga, the bullet was already significantly further away from Maki before she touched or grabbed it.
And Maki was leaning forward while catching the bullet, so saying that the two panels are consistent requires gymnastics in more ways than one.

Even in the anime, it is shown that Maki caught the bullet in one swift movement and had her arm extended forward afterwards, which is not possible if the bullet was a couple of cms away from her face.

Firstly, the feat in anime also cuts, we literally see Maki's hand in motion coming forward and then is cuts to the bullet caught in her hand. We never see the full motion of the handing catching the bullet.

secondly, I did make one, and I presented an interpretation that is more valid than everyone making everything up in their head. This isn't a special gymnastic move that you claim, its a basic movement that every person does when confronted with something hitting them. That was that:

Maki caught the bullet and due to the motion and force of her hand she pushed the bullet back like, hence leaning forward and the hand extending further out.

As above, we see Maki's hand come forward to grab the bullet with it cutting to her holding the bullet while leaning forward with the bullet and her hand extended out further to push the bullet away

Jujutsu Kaisen is a series that explains everything that is happening, if the feat was imagination, the author would have stated so just like other times. The author has numerous times explained situations weather it was in series and guidebooks and not once said anything of it events being fake.

---

It is fine and okay to argue for your point of view. However, what you are doing is arguing for a notion by purposely misconstruing events and scene by present misinformation and inserting baseless ideas. This is both disrespectful and dishonest. Its fine to argue the bullet feat being inconsistent with speed scaling, but what you're doing is arguing that the events did no take place by claiming wrong information purposely and trying to alter their events by saying such and such is inconsistent without analyzing the complete feat.

The bullet feat is real. Stop purposely misconstruing the events. You can argue the results from the feat are inconsistent but the feta itself is real.

 

[Antvasima]

It seems like this discussion will keep going in circles and no staff members are willing to help out so far. Does anybody have any ideas to help us reach conclusions here?

 

[PrinceofPein]

It seems like this discussion will keep going in circles and no staff members are willing to help out so far. Does anybody have any ideas to help us reach conclusions here?

Simple maki feat should be recalculated with the right info this time
It is a rubber bullet catching feat

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. If you assemble all of the visual evidence for the feat, I can probably ask a few calc group members to help us out, if there are no objections.

 

[PrinceofPein]

Okay. If you assemble all of the visual evidence for the feat, I can probably ask a few calc group members to help us out, if there are no objections.

Would do soon

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thanks.

 

[Theendzero13]

Bump

 

[PrinceofPein]

Totally forgot about this, let me post it here

 

[PrinceofPein]

So is it enough if I ask our staff members to evaluate the following post, or should I link to another one as well?

https://vsbattles.com/threads/jujutsu-kaisen-revision-part-1-speed.122259/post-4195283

Here is the feat if you can get a cgm to calc it, it would be of great help
1. I will like to say to make it consistent with things in the series and the statements. It should be lowballed as much as possible
2. The bullet used is a rubber bullet, so maybe the low end for rubber bullet
3. Here is the scan from the manga

https://cdn.readkakegurui.com/file/mangaifenzi22/jujutsu-kaisen/chapter-42-kyoto-sister-school-goodwill-event-team-battle-part-9/13.jpg

Second page

https://official-ongoing-2.gamindustri.us/manga/Jujutsu-Kaisen/0042-014.png

4. Then the anime version,

https://64.media.tumblr.com/20f8c8c6dea3a2d0211e9e5e65642bc9/0b497b9c4362f360-19/s1280x1920/34bb7dab3ad9e40caa5692daa7776c9bdd9b1a2b.gifv

Anyway I will.like to say the best interpretation of the feat would be that she moved her head backwards as she was moving her hand forwards to catch the bullet. It is better than any other interpretation so if this can be calculated that should be noted

 

[Antvasima]

Here is the feat if you can get a cgm to calc it, it would be of great help
1. I will like to say to make it consistent with things in the series and the statements. It should be lowballed as much as possible
2. The bullet used is a rubber bullet, so maybe the low end for rubber bullet
3. Here is the scan from the manga

https://cdn.readkakegurui.com/file/mangaifenzi22/jujutsu-kaisen/chapter-42-kyoto-sister-school-goodwill-event-team-battle-part-9/13.jpg

Second page

https://official-ongoing-2.gamindustri.us/manga/Jujutsu-Kaisen/0042-014.png

4. Then the anime version,

https://64.media.tumblr.com/20f8c8c6dea3a2d0211e9e5e65642bc9/0b497b9c4362f360-19/s1280x1920/34bb7dab3ad9e40caa5692daa7776c9bdd9b1a2b.gifv

Anyway I will.like to say the best interpretation of the feat would be that she moved her head backwards as she was moving her hand forwards to catch the bullet. It is better than any other interpretation so if this can be calculated that should be noted

@DemonGodMitchAubin @Jasonsith @Therefir

Would any of you be willing to calculate this, and then tell us here, please?

 

[Dr._whiteee]

Here is the feat if you can get a cgm to calc it, it would be of great help
1. I will like to say to make it consistent with things in the series and the statements. It should be lowballed as much as possible
2. The bullet used is a rubber bullet, so maybe the low end for rubber bullet
3. Here is the scan from the manga

https://cdn.readkakegurui.com/file/mangaifenzi22/jujutsu-kaisen/chapter-42-kyoto-sister-school-goodwill-event-team-battle-part-9/13.jpg

Second page

https://official-ongoing-2.gamindustri.us/manga/Jujutsu-Kaisen/0042-014.png

4. Then the anime version,

https://64.media.tumblr.com/20f8c8c6dea3a2d0211e9e5e65642bc9/0b497b9c4362f360-19/s1280x1920/34bb7dab3ad9e40caa5692daa7776c9bdd9b1a2b.gifv

Anyway I will.like to say the best interpretation of the feat would be that she moved her head backwards as she was moving her hand forwards to catch the bullet. It is better than any other interpretation so if this can be calculated that should be noted

No, the calcer should use the speed I just spent several pages arguing for. We can argue the correct usage of speed then but I blatantly outlined why “low end rubber bullet speed” is preposterous .

 

[Antvasima]

Dr._whiteee:

Please explain further in an easy to understand manner.

 

[Dr._whiteee]

Dr._whiteee:

Please explain further in an easy to understand manner.

Tl:dr the “low end” rubber bullet speed is specific to low end propellant riot guns that aren’t equatable to the gun/bullets being used in the feat. I provided several sources of real life rubber bullets that were much more comparable to the feat, and would give more accurate numbers.

 

[Antvasima]

Tl:dr the “low end” rubber bullet speed is specific to low end propellant riot guns that aren’t equatable to the gun/bullets being used in the feat. I provided several sources of real life rubber bullets that were much more comparable to the feat, and would give more accurate numbers.

Okay. I hope that our calc group members will take that into account then.

 

[Cyberblader90]

bump

 

[Theendzero13]

bump

we waiting for CGM to recalc maki feat i guess

 

[Antvasima]

Can somebody post a link to the visual evidence for the feat please?

 

[PrinceofPein]

Can somebody post a link to the visual evidence for the feat, please?

Everything is here
Post in thread 'Jujutsu Kaisen revision - Part 1: Speed' https://vsbattles.com/threads/jujutsu-kaisen-revision-part-1-speed.122259/post-4204887

 

[Antvasima]

we waiting for CGM to recalc maki feat i guess

Can somebody post a link to the visual evidence for the feat please?

Everything is here
Post in thread 'Jujutsu Kaisen revision - Part 1: Speed' https://vsbattles.com/threads/jujutsu-kaisen-revision-part-1-speed.122259/post-4204887

@Mr._Bambu @DMUA @Damage3245

Would any of you be willing to calculate this feat and then tell us here please?

 

[Otosaka]

Bump

 

[Antvasima]

@Therefir @DMUA @DemonGodMitchAubin @KieranH10 @Psychomaster35

Would any of you be willing to calculate the feat linked in the post below please?

https://vsbattles.com/threads/jujutsu-kaisen-revision-part-1-speed.122259/post-4227617

 

[Therefir]

The feat doesn't make much sense at all, the bullet was about to hit her, but when she catches it, the bullet is suddenly a meter away from her, how can we calculate something like this if we don't know how far the bullet moved compared to her arm?

 

[Insert_creative_name_here_12]

Um bump?

 

[Dr._whiteee]

The feat doesn't make much sense at all, the bullet was about to hit her, but when she catches it, the bullet is suddenly a meter away from her, how can we calculate something like this if we don't know how far the bullet moved compared to her arm?

She reflexively moved her head and caught the bullet.

We have the distance the bullet reached prior to her making a move. Calculating the distance moved should be easy since we have her height and can use arc for her motion. So just calculating how fast she had to move her hand from waist level to face level would give you the number for the feat.

We also have her cutting a bullet in half from this distance.

And dodging one from this feat.

And utilizing a proper speed for the bullet with a bare bones minimum 136m/s based on Co2 revolver bullet speed, or the more accurate (IMO) speed of rubber slugs meant to be fired as projectiles reaching 220m/s, as cited above.

 

[PrinceofPein]

We also have her cutting a bullet in half from this distance.

And dodging one from this feat.

This two are not speed feats she was looking directly at the gun it can be passed for aim dodging

 

[PrinceofPein]

The feat doesn't make much sense at all, the bullet was about to hit her, but when she catches it, the bullet is suddenly a meter away from her, how can we calculate something like this if we don't know how far the bullet moved compared to her arm?

I actually agree, but you can use the scenario where she moved her head back as the bullet was approaching and her hand forward. Or just scratch the damn feat all together tbh since it's a feat that is suppose to support whatever rating the verse is about to get

 

[Dr._whiteee]

This two are not speed feats she was looking directly at the gun it can be passed for aim dodging

Not really given that she cut the bullet in half mid flight, and the second instance that bullet is already mid flight as well as Maki blitzes several meters forward to dodge it and parry several successive shots.