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Jujutsu Kaisen revision - Part 1: Speed

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Drop geto to subsonic/transonic since he does not any feat or lore to put him on gojo/sukuna level(except with maximum uzumaki but it is not his regular stats)
Huh? Geto scales to Gojo who scales to Toji. We also kinda see geto blitz the second years in vol 0 and gojo can’t actually beat Geto alone. He definitely scales based off lore and how his characters depicted. idk how you can rationalize Geto~Naoya.
 
Huh? Geto scales to Gojo who scales to Toji. We also kinda see geto blitz the second years in vol 0 and gojo can’t actually beat Geto alone. He definitely scales based off lore and how his characters depicted. idk how you can rationalize Geto~Naoya.
In terms of speed why not, also geto kinda of did get curbstomped by both yuta and toji so i do not think he scales to gojo
 
Until yuta unleashed rika, them geto strongest attack who takes time to be preped got defeated by rika casual power
That was not causal rika. It was literally amped rika. Reread vol 0 pls. Geto also embarrassed the entirety of kyoto minus Todo.
 
That was not causal rika. It was literally amped rika. Reread vol 0 pls. Geto also embarrassed the entirety of kyoto minus Todo.
Yeah no once yuta cursed rika he overpowered geto's uzumaki and was only gotten stronger since them, at the end of the day rika overpowered geto strongest attack and toji made a way bigger deal out of gojo
 
Yeah no once yuta cursed rika he overpowered geto's uzumaki and was only gotten stronger since them, at the end of the day rika overpowered geto strongest attack and toji made a way bigger deal out of gojo
That’s all ap. This is strictly about speed. Geto can keep up with yuuta. Geto as a character is unbeatable by Gojo, that’s why yuuta was needed and used.
 
Alright to begin

I disagree with downgrading the verse to subsonic/transonic speed for the following reasons

First Point
The first reason is feats contradict the statement. Yes, statements are usually all go to in most cases. However, statements can be disregarded if they do not match with the story. In this case we have 8 calcs that disagree with subsonic speeds. Listed below. (Sukuna’s 15 finger feat is not part of it).
This is a list of all accepted feats. For those who say statements over feats. Statement can be disregarded enough evidence from feats exists.
Accepted Feat list:
Maki blitz Ogi (Hypersonic)
Itadori (Beginning of series) blitz curse (Subsonic+)
Stone hand speed (Hypersonic, assuming 0.08 (benefit of doubt) Supersonic)
Maki catching bullet point blank as she did High Hypersonic+)
Speed of tree appearing (Supersonic)
Speed of jobber people who can't perceive Maki's movements (Subsonic+)
Geto casual speed(Supersonic)
Sukuna (3 fingers and 15 fingers) speed (Supersonic+(3) and Hypersonic+(15)) 3 fingers scales to Shibuya Toji and Megumi (who would scale to other like Itadori and Nobara) as Shibuya Toji was compared to be as fast as this Sukuna (3 fingers) and Megumi kept up with that Toji)
Yes, small number of feats don’t mean much, but 8 feats is not small. This more feats than most verses have. It quite clear that subsonic doesn’t match up with what’s happening in the verse. It very evident that statement contradicts what is happening and is out shadowed by 9 feats. These feats happen quite early in the series as well. The feats were argued against earlier in the thread; however, most arguments were about the way of calcing which are used across the entire wiki and others had no real basis towards them.

Second Point
My second reason involves three characters. These characters are the principle of Kyoto, Inumaki and Urahime. I bring these 3 up as all three of these are individuals who have sounds attacks.

Principle of Kyoto (Sound attacks from guitar)
Urahime (Cursed technique involves singing)
Inumaki cursed speech (Speaks)

In terms of the statement against anything current speeds, it suggest that no character up to that point was above subsonic speeds. However, these three individuals aren't any special characters. They haven never been regarded special for anything, most definitely their speeds or attacks speeds. Which is weird for characters who are supposedly faster than the entire cast, despite never showing anything above them. There are even characters like Yuji who is noted for his speed by hanami, despite hanami fighting inumaki early and not taking him seriously. It is also worth to mention that the principles sound attacks have also been perceived, reacted to and blocked by Juzo, a jobber character himself.



Third Point
This is the statement that is being referred:



My third point is the statement itself misunderstood by many, but first, Naoya's technique. First Naoya's technique. Naoya's (same as Naobito's) technique allows him to set a predetermined path of movement for one second, however his movements in that path for one second are broken down into 24 frames. However, once a path is set it can be broken otherwise result in one second of being frozen. However, it is revealed by Naoya that having the technique constantly on, it increases your speed continuously.



The statement in question is that Naoya “had already surpassed subsonic speeds”, past tense. Naoya prior to fighting Maki at top speeds had already surpassed subsonic speeds in his fight with her earlier. Throughout the fight he was already above subsonic speeds and was continuously growing his speed as it went on. Not that he just surpassed subsonic speeds. When it states that Maki is at a disadvantage, it is because of her extremes loss of blood and injuries are affecting her and due to Naoya's continuous growth in speed Maki isn't able to win a projected fight. this is backed up by the fast these statements (Naoya growing continuously and Maki disadvantage).

To make is easier to understand:

Naoya does not surpass Subsonic speeds in the moment of that statement, it is referring to his speed prior in the fight, having directly saying “had already surpassed subsonic speeds”. past tense, which Maki is able to keep up with in the fight. This is because of his continuous growth in speed with his technique. which comes directly before the statement about Maki. This refers to her condition as giving her a disadvantage in along fight because she isn't able to hold out much longer, and is in trouble of Naoya's growth in speed. The statement refers to his surpassing subsonic speeds as benchmark in how fast he is growing, Naoya merely activating his technique is already surpassing subsonic speeds.

That's what it means. This itself doesn't refer to everyone being below subsonic speeds.

Conclusion
To summaries up what is being said

-There are many feats in the series that contradict the notion of current characters being subsonic speeds. While statements are usually the go to, they can be dismissed when it doesn't match. There are 8 feats that contradict it ranging from the beginning to the current times of the series.

-There are established sound attack users in the series. These characters are never regard forthere speed or attack speeds. With such being Inumaki, who fought Hanami, hanami not taking him seriously, however taking Yuji seriously and noting him for his speed after fight inumaki. There are also jobber characters perceiving, reacting and blocking the principles attacks which are sound.

-The statement is misunderstood by many, it is referring to Maki at a disadvantage due to injuries affecting her. She isn't able to win and long fight with Naoya due to him continuously growing in speed, which the "had already surpassed subsonic speeds" refers to him doing so prior in the fight as benchmark for him growing in speed. Which inherently doesn't make other characters in subsonic either.
 
PowerToScale seems to make sense to me.
 
PowerToScale seems to make sense to me.
Sorry but it actually makes no sense as most of what he says is just blatantly wrong he said there are people who used sounds to attack, ask him when the said attacks was dodged or blocked.
reacted to and blocked by Juzo, a jobber character himself
The feat itself when calced will be at most subsonic given the distance as he barely reacts to it
 
To address another point that will probably be brought up and has already; Naoya showing a vapor cone does not necessarily mean that that is when he reached the sos or past it, it’s an artistic choice from Gege to show us the speed of Naoya. It’s very popular for artists to draw their characters creating sonic booms as they go faster and faster and not that that is when they reach sos.
 
Sorry but it actually makes no sense as most of what he says is just blatantly wrong he said there are people who used sounds to attack, ask him when the said attacks was dodged or blocked.

The feat itself when calced will be at most subsonic given the distance as he barely reacts to it
Dude if we go with Juzo being subsonic, that still supports the large amount of evidence that early on in the series characters are already subsonic. And as Power noted, juzo is a fodder character, so cool you just admitted a fodder character is subsonic. How can top tiers scale anywhere near him given the significant portrayal of the characters being above others that are above him in speed?
 
Sorry but it actually makes no sense as most of what he says is just blatantly wrong he said there are people who used sounds to attack, ask him when the said attacks was dodged or blocked.

The feat itself when calced will be at most subsonic given the distance as he barely reacts to it
I believe Powers point in bringing up inumaki, the principal, and utahime, is to show that sos is not a speed that’s considered impossible for most sorcerers.
 
I believe Powers point in bringing up inumaki, the principal, and utahime, is to show that sos is not a speed that’s considered impossible for most sorcerers.
Two of the point he brought up was speech, in fiction speech is a free action is it not?
The speech is normal and can't even.be blocked or dodged so what's the point?
 
Two of the point he brought up was speech, in fiction speech is a free action is it not?
The speech is normal and can't even.be blocked or dodged so what's the point?
The point is that you guys are trying to put projection sorcery and a ton of other curse techniques below Cursed speech, and the random guitar curse technique above them. The series does not portray either curse technique above others. You’re essentially trying to imply Inumaki could tag Jogo with his cursed speech before Jogo could reach him. We know Jogo would blitz him before the sound wave could reach him. Just simple scaling and implications for the characters.
 
Have any staff members replied to this thread previously?
 
The point is that you guys are trying to put projection sorcery and a ton of other curse techniques below Cursed speech, and the random guitar curse technique above them. The series does not portray either curse technique above others. You’re essentially trying to imply Inumaki could tag Jogo with his cursed speech before Jogo could reach him. We know Jogo would blitz him before the sound wave could reach him. Just simple scaling and implications for the characters.
No one is trying to put one above the other, inumaki cursed speech while.good is not that effective against stronger opponent like special grade we see him coughing out blood from using it a few times against it.

You rarely dodge speech, only if you block out your hearing, of blitz before he speaks,
The principal attack on the other hand is specific and not wide range like speech.

At most he would get sos attack speed.
 
The thing about juuzo reacting to sound is not the speed it would take, the point is that sound was not enough to blitz him, but stronger characters do get blitzed by people like toji,maki,gojo,jogo etc
 
The thing about juuzo reacting to sound is not the speed it would take, the point is that sound was not enough to blitz him, but stronger characters do get blitzed by people like toji,maki,gojo,jogo etc
Distance plays a very important factor, from.that distance it is not impressive
 
Alright to begin

I disagree with downgrading the verse to subsonic/transonic speed for the following reasons

First Point
The first reason is feats contradict the statement. Yes, statements are usually all go to in most cases. However, statements can be disregarded if they do not match with the story. In this case we have 8 calcs that disagree with subsonic speeds. Listed below. (Sukuna’s 15 finger feat is not part of it).

Yes, small number of feats don’t mean much, but 8 feats is not small. This more feats than most verses have. It quite clear that subsonic doesn’t match up with what’s happening in the verse. It very evident that statement contradicts what is happening and is out shadowed by 9 feats. These feats happen quite early in the series as well. The feats were argued against earlier in the thread; however, most arguments were about the way of calcing which are used across the entire wiki and others had no real basis towards them.

Second Point
My second reason involves three characters. These characters are the principle of Kyoto, Inumaki and Urahime. I bring these 3 up as all three of these are individuals who have sounds attacks.

Principle of Kyoto (Sound attacks from guitar)
Urahime (Cursed technique involves singing)
Inumaki cursed speech (Speaks)

In terms of the statement against anything current speeds, it suggest that no character up to that point was above subsonic speeds. However, these three individuals aren't any special characters. They haven never been regarded special for anything, most definitely their speeds or attacks speeds. Which is weird for characters who are supposedly faster than the entire cast, despite never showing anything above them. There are even characters like Yuji who is noted for his speed by hanami, despite hanami fighting inumaki early and not taking him seriously. It is also worth to mention that the principles sound attacks have also been perceived, reacted to and blocked by Juzo, a jobber character himself.



Third Point
This is the statement that is being referred:



My third point is the statement itself misunderstood by many, but first, Naoya's technique. First Naoya's technique. Naoya's (same as Naobito's) technique allows him to set a predetermined path of movement for one second, however his movements in that path for one second are broken down into 24 frames. However, once a path is set it can be broken otherwise result in one second of being frozen. However, it is revealed by Naoya that having the technique constantly on, it increases your speed continuously.



The statement in question is that Naoya “had already surpassed subsonic speeds”, past tense. Naoya prior to fighting Maki at top speeds had already surpassed subsonic speeds in his fight with her earlier. Throughout the fight he was already above subsonic speeds and was continuously growing his speed as it went on. Not that he just surpassed subsonic speeds. When it states that Maki is at a disadvantage, it is because of her extremes loss of blood and injuries are affecting her and due to Naoya's continuous growth in speed Maki isn't able to win a projected fight. this is backed up by the fast these statements (Naoya growing continuously and Maki disadvantage).

To make is easier to understand:

Naoya does not surpass Subsonic speeds in the moment of that statement, it is referring to his speed prior in the fight, having directly saying “had already surpassed subsonic speeds”. past tense, which Maki is able to keep up with in the fight. This is because of his continuous growth in speed with his technique. which comes directly before the statement about Maki. This refers to her condition as giving her a disadvantage in along fight because she isn't able to hold out much longer, and is in trouble of Naoya's growth in speed. The statement refers to his surpassing subsonic speeds as benchmark in how fast he is growing, Naoya merely activating his technique is already surpassing subsonic speeds.

That's what it means. This itself doesn't refer to everyone being below subsonic speeds.

Conclusion
To summaries up what is being said

-There are many feats in the series that contradict the notion of current characters being subsonic speeds. While statements are usually the go to, they can be dismissed when it doesn't match. There are 8 feats that contradict it ranging from the beginning to the current times of the series.

-There are established sound attack users in the series. These characters are never regard forthere speed or attack speeds. With such being Inumaki, who fought Hanami, hanami not taking him seriously, however taking Yuji seriously and noting him for his speed after fight inumaki. There are also jobber characters perceiving, reacting and blocking the principles attacks which are sound.

-The statement is misunderstood by many, it is referring to Maki at a disadvantage due to injuries affecting her. She isn't able to win and long fight with Naoya due to him continuously growing in speed, which the "had already surpassed subsonic speeds" refers to him doing so prior in the fight as benchmark for him growing in speed. Which inherently doesn't make other characters in subsonic either.

@KingTempest @Damage3245 @DemonGodMitchAubin

What do you think about this?
 
Also this one
Making the argument for Subsonic scaling from Projection Sorcery.

Let's look at the statement with context:

0151-012.png

0151-013.png

0151-014.png


Some observations:
  • Naoya states that he is going to attack Maki at his maximum speed; this is prior to the statement about surpassing subsonic speed.
  • It is previously stated that there is a limit to the acceleration allowed by Projection Sorcery, but speed can build up. So Naoya can't instantly move at top speed after a single frame, but he can increase his speed gradually. The timeframe to complete a movement is constant: 1/24 fps, so he would have to gradually increase the distance he is moving per frame to move faster.
  • Maki is overwhelmed by Naoya moving a few meters in 1/24 s, and he runs circles around her. This is Maki getting overwhelmed by what is objectively subsonic speed.
  • The narrator lists multiple reasons Maki is at a disadvantage... and this includes Naoya surpassing subsonic speed. Just in the previous panel Naoya said that he is going to move at top speed; he is one of the fastest characters and he used a speed amp. It is absurd to claim that every mid-tier casually surpasses subsonic speed.
  • We are shown Naoya doing a mach cone while charging in. This is associated with Naoya using Projection Sorcery at top speed, rather than something every mid-tier character can casually do.
Maki is still top-tier even while wounded as she was able to blitz Ohgi, etc. So almost every character downscales from her. She is at a disadvantage in a protracted fight, which means that she is able to perform well in a non-protracted fight even while fatigued.


Earlier we've seen Naoya demonstrating the ability to blitz both Choso and 15 Fingers Yuji, by moving a few meters within 1/24 s... which is objectively subsonic.
0139-016.png
0139-017.png


Yuta failed to blitz Yuji despite stating that he attempted to do so. So this anti-feat applies to the top-tiers.

It is mentioned that Dagon is far superior to Juzo. Let's see how he performed:
0107-017.png


He got blitzed by objectively subsonic speed (movement of a few meters within 1/24 s).


We don't have to assume timeframes and such. The Projection Sorcery technique literally gives us a canonical timeframe which we should use over headcanons and guesstimates... and this canonical timeframe suggests that top-tiers are subsonic to transonic when they are attempting to move very fast.
 
Uh pretty sure that the subsonic stuff has been debunked. Stopping a rubber bullet from inches in front of your face is still well out of that range, especially since she is using a realistic magnum and small bullet-like pellets, not balls or large nerf gun-like bullets used in the really slow pellet guns. The bullets had enough power to completely floor Nobara and move her several feet as she was running towards witch girl. Also notice the smoke coming from the chamber indicating it was powder.

For reference, she is likely using a traumatic gun, or gun that fires at high speeds utilizing rubber bullets. These can be found online and have muzzles speed. This one for a mini magnum 38 has a muzzle velocity of 380 m/s. This is pre-kaio ken Maki.

The "superseding sound" thing was already addressed with the databook IIRC. JJK is pretty well out of that territory this seems pretty obvious. As for the frame dude there is a difference between movement speed and reaction speed in addition to his technique being a hax. Just cause characters can react at top end to hypersonic speeds doesn't mean they won't struggle mightily with someone casually moving at that speed. Batters can hit a 90mph baseball, doesn't mean they wouldn't struggle to defend against it blitzing around them at that speed constantly.

Don't agree with the blackflash stuff and think Maki feat should be recalced.
Bullet catch, in both anime and manga, was debunked here early in the thread (High Hypersonic+ scale) as severly exagerated.

Being disorientated by a rubber bullet to the head does not indicated being sent flying several feet (don't think this is shown or implied in the panel); and even if the kinetic force of the bullet was enchanced, this does not mean that its speed was. It is also of note that Nobara does not know passive full-body reinforcement, and according to the author her ability to kick away a 80 kg guy was an error due to his weight.
0005-020.png

So we can't assume that Nobara is superhuman in durability, especially when she is caught by surprise.

It is the standard for guns to be powered by gas pressure, especially via. gunpowder cartiges.

The weapon you are citing is labeled to fire lead bullets, not rubber ones, and doesn't resemble the gun Mai is using.
29103001_1.jpg

Pellet TypeLead
Velocity380 m/s

She is using one of the generic magnum revolvers you see in media, which can be outfitted with both normal and rubber bullets. This is also indicated by her reassuring her classmate Momo that she was using rubber bullets.
Rubber bullets, by design in order to reduce lethality, are relatively slow or made to rapidly lose velocity.


Most of the databook is translated here and here


If the relevant statement that provides relavant information about supersonic speed exists in the databook but is untranslated, can you highlight which section the statement is in?

The thing is that when Naoya was blitzing around Maki, he was objectively moving at subsonic speed if we use the canonical timeframe and measure the distance of his movements (which falls far short than the distance required for supersonic speed).
 
First Point
The first reason is feats contradict the statement. Yes, statements are usually all go to in most cases. However, statements can be disregarded if they do not match with the story. In this case we have 8 calcs that disagree with subsonic speeds. Listed below. (Sukuna’s 15 finger feat is not part of it).
Most of th calcs you mentioned have been criticized, assuming they are a given is begging the question. The only ones not highly questionable are the Maki vs Ohgi and the Geto one, which are outnumbered by the anti-feats.

Second Point
My second reason involves three characters. These characters are the principle of Kyoto, Inumaki and Urahime. I bring these 3 up as all three of these are individuals who have sounds attacks.
He doesn't even block it, as in you moves his weapon to parry or shield before the soundwave reaches him. He just tanks it on his torso. Also again the distance makes this subsonic; Geto reacting to a pistol and a sniper rifle are more impressive, and even those are most likely subsonic due to the distance.
As previously mentioned, singing and speaking are not useful for determining speed as they usually come with surprise or AoE advantage.

Third Point
This is the statement that is being referred:
Your description of the technique doesn't seem to contradict mine. Do you agree that I described how the technique works correctly, and that my argument doesn't fall among those who misunderstand it?

Naoya prior to fighting Maki at top speeds had already surpassed subsonic speeds in his fight with her earlier. Throughout the fight he was already above subsonic speeds and was continuously growing his speed as it went on. Not that he just surpassed subsonic speeds. When it states that Maki is at a disadvantage, it is because of her extremes loss of blood and injuries are affecting her and due to Naoya's continuous growth in speed Maki isn't able to win a projected fight. this is backed up by the fast these statements (Naoya growing continuously and Maki disadvantage).

To make is easier to understand:

Naoya does not surpass Subsonic speeds in the moment of that statement, it is referring to his speed prior in the fight, having directly saying “had already surpassed subsonic speeds”. past tense, which Maki is able to keep up with in the fight. This is because of his continuous growth in speed with his technique. which comes directly before the statement about Maki. This refers to her condition as giving her a disadvantage in along fight because she isn't able to hold out much longer, and is in trouble of Naoya's growth in speed. The statement refers to his surpassing subsonic speeds as benchmark in how fast he is growing, Naoya merely activating his technique is already surpassing subsonic speeds.

That's what it means. This itself doesn't refer to everyone being below subsonic speeds.
But that statement only comes after Naoya declares that he will now fight at top speed. So what is your evidence that his casual speed, before he starts building-up speed to reach top speed, surpasses subsonic?
Also how do you explain the objectively subsonic movements around Maki in the panel where he is building up speed?
It is ridiculous to claim that 'merely activating his technique he becomes faster than subsonic', when basic math using the canonical timeframe tells us that it is impossible for him and Naobito to be moving faster than sound in various instances where they use Projection Sorcery.
 
Bullet catch, in both anime and manga, was debunked here early in the thread (High Hypersonic+ scale) as severly exagerated.
I do think High hypersonic+ is exxageratted so we agree on that point. My point is that the feat is clearly well above supersonic and into the High hypersonic range.
Being disorientated by a rubber bullet to the head does not indicated being sent flying several feet (don't think this is shown or implied in the panel); and even if the kinetic force of the bullet was enchanced, this does not mean that its speed was. It is also of note that Nobara does not know passive full-body reinforcement, and according to the author her ability to kick away a 80 kg guy was an error due to his weight.
The disorientation is irrelevant. The point is that Nobara was literally sent several feet to her right by the kinetic impact of the bullet. Indicating that it is clearly not some run of the mill rubber pullet gun. Not sure what you mean by the force of impact not being directly correlated to speed? A rubber bullet is not sending a human body flying several feet unless you drastically increase it's speed or close the distance. Mai was substantially far away from Nobara which also indicates that for her to accurately hit from such a range and still conserve enough energy to knock her away, means that the bullet is carrying a heavy punch, and indicates the bullet is being propelled by power, which we clearly see is the case given the scan I linked of her barrel after firing. Also highlighted in the scan you posted showing the impact being severe enough to create a smoke cloud after Maki caught it.
It is the standard for guns to be powered by gas pressure, especially via. gunpowder cartiges.

The weapon you are citing is labeled to fire lead bullets, not rubber ones, and doesn't resemble the gun Mai is using.
The gun is of little consequence tbh and we already saw the smoke coming from the chamber that doesn't happen without power especially for that long.

Here is the speed for a rubber shell which still comes out to 220 m/s. Well outside of the 60 m/s range. Maki's bullets are also smaller and use powder so her bullets would be more akin to this product. Not to mention she is firing a magnum with a long barrel.



She is using one of the generic magnum revolvers you see in media, which can be outfitted with both normal and rubber bullets. This is also indicated by her reassuring her classmate Momo that she was using rubber bullets.
Rubber bullets, by design in order to reduce lethality, are relatively slow or made to rapidly lose velocity.
Yes and her bullets used powder, are clearly capped, and have feats of knocking a human several feet away from dozens of meters of range while still being able to maintain accuracy. I'm pretty sure that is all blatant evidence against this being some regular rubber bullet shooter at 60 m/s.
Most of the databook is translated here and here


If the relevant statement that provides relavant information about supersonic speed exists in the databook but is untranslated, can you highlight which section the statement is in?
It's actually in the thread that is where I remember seeing it. Qlilopth translated it to roughly "exceed the speed of sound" regarding the blood technique. That is more what I was referring to about the speed of sound stuff, as it just means it reached speeds passing mach 1.
The thing is that when Naoya was blitzing around Maki, he was objectively moving at subsonic speed if we use the canonical timeframe and measure the distance of his movements (which falls far short than the distance required for supersonic speed).
Yes, because he can move at those speeds and I'm not 100% sure this is accurate based on what was posted above. But assuming your stance is correct, reaction speed and close combat speed is still not movement speed. There is a reason Dragonflies are apex bug predators, there maneuverability is ridiculous. Noaya can literally continually move at these speeds so reacting one or twice isn't enough because you constantly have to track something your body can't continuously move with. Which is why he doesn't outright blitz like Maki did with Ogi, and instead overwhelms his opponents with an onslaught.
 
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Reading the Naoya statement again, it is in past tense meaning that Naoya was already going at subsonic+ speeds by the time that it is mentioned in the panel, not that he only surpassed subsonic at that moment. He was already beyond it.
 
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