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Jujutsu Kaisen revision - Part 1: Speed

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Wow. Are you guys cool with a At least Transonic+ for Naoya with Projection Sorcery at max speed and Maki in Reaction Speed?
 
Nelliels said:
Wow. Are you guys cool with a At least Transonic+ for Naoya with Projection Sorcery at max speed and Maki in Reaction Speed?
Click to expand...
I am not, honestly all the arguments for them at those speeds seem very fallacious, but if there is no other choice.....
 
Nelliels said:
Wow. Are you guys cool with a At least Transonic+ for Naoya with Projection Sorcery at max speed and Maki in Reaction Speed?
Click to expand...
I'm not cool with. This is something that should be argued. No middle ground agreement. It should be either agreed that the statement is dismissed or that it stands to hold true.

I don't believe we should willy nilly accept these middle ground assumption as, undermine the issues and can be wrong
 
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@Antvasima

I believe that both sides should provide their final argument on the matter. With unbias judges deciding which argument makes the most sense. The matter has been dragged out long enough and at this point its just a 'whatever happens happens' moment.

If other events in the series happen that support the dismissed sides view, another crt can be made in the future for those moments.
 
My arguments are still the same
1: the scan does not objectively states that maki is subsonic,
2: even if that was the case it would be atributted to her wounds and fatigue which got way more focus on the statement and is supported by her getting tagged by people she used to blitz( blitzing ogi just to them get tagged by chojuro)
3: we have examples of characters blitzing strong characters stronger than juzou , yet gakuganji sound blast was slow enough to be reacted by juuzo, that is supported by the many faster the sound feats, mind you the distance from were people like jogo, maki and toji blitzed their oppomemts is comparable or higher than the one from where juuzo blocked gakuganji
4: if even a mid tier like gakuganji can attack with sound speed there no reason to assume the high and god tiers cannot attack faster
 
PowerToScale said:
@Antvasima

I believe that both sides should provide their final argument on the matter. With unbias judges deciding which argument makes the most sense. The matter has been dragged out long enough and at this point its just a 'whatever happens happens' moment.

If other events in the series happen that support the dismissed sides view, another crt can be made in the future for those moments.
Click to expand...
That is fine with me, although the arguments have to be properly structured, sufficiently extensive, and easy to understand, with links to the evidence.
 
But honestly i think waiting is better , nobody on any sides seen to have changed their opnions and both got arguments, so there is that, lets wait
 
PowerToScale said:
I believe that both sides should provide their final argument on the matter. With unbias judges deciding which argument makes the most sense. The matter has been dragged out long enough and at this point its just a 'whatever happens happens' moment.

If other events in the series happen that support the dismissed sides view, another crt can be made in the future for those moments.
Click to expand...
So about this...
 
Antvasima said:
So about this...
Click to expand...
Ill try to help too, but I am a new member so im not sure whether it would count or not

Also there is potential for a speed increase again...Spoilers for Chp 158 :
The new character Hajime is being theorized to have a CT related to lightning :
This thread explains it.A couple of posts in that thread explain why this would make sense(like lightning being an elemental type(since Hajime existed a long time ago) and Uraume(another ancient sorcerer) also has an elemental type,ice.Also other stuff, so be sure to take a read if you want a better explanation
He will likely battle against the heroes(i guess), and this might lead to them reacting to lightning .So maybe we will have to reconsider speed as a whole.
 
Outcast said:
Ill try to help too, but I am a new member so im not sure whether it would count or not

Also there is potential for a speed increase again...Spoilers for Chp 158 :
The new character Hajime is being theorized to have a CT related to lightning :
This thread explains it.A couple of posts in that thread explain why this would make sense(like lightning being an elemental type(since Hajime existed a long time ago) and Uraume(another ancient sorcerer) also has an elemental type,ice.Also other stuff, so be sure to take a read if you want a better explanation
He will likely battle against the heroes(i guess), and this might lead to them reacting to lightning .So maybe we will have to reconsider speed as a whole.
Click to expand...
Lets wait for that them for now we only got theories, also it would also have to fit our criteria for lightning speed
 
Last edited:
Outcast said:
Ill try to help too, but I am a new member so im not sure whether it would count or not

Also there is potential for a speed increase again...Spoilers for Chp 158 :
The new character Hajime is being theorized to have a CT related to lightning :
This thread explains it.A couple of posts in that thread explain why this would make sense(like lightning being an elemental type(since Hajime existed a long time ago) and Uraume(another ancient sorcerer) also has an elemental type,ice.Also other stuff, so be sure to take a read if you want a better explanation
He will likely battle against the heroes(i guess), and this might lead to them reacting to lightning .So maybe we will have to reconsider speed as a whole.
Click to expand...
if it happens people will get mhs depending on what happens in the arc. A lot of people have gotten stronger so we wont scale people in the Shibuya incident like Yuji or Maki. Like if we end up seeing Yuji, Yuuta, Megumi, react to the lightning then their Culling games keys will get the scaling not previous.
 
True, its just a theory
Nullflowerblush said:
The only person to receive a power-up since the end of the Shibuya Incident was Maki.
Click to expand...
Well, Itadori and Maki have on panel statements/feats to say they are stronger.
Maki is obv a LOT stronger due to her powerup
Megumi can now go inside his shadows,something he hasnt done previously
Overall it makes sense for multiple chars to be stronger, we are just away from a big arc(The culling games)
 
Making the argument for Subsonic scaling from Projection Sorcery.

Let's look at the statement with context:

0151-012.png

0151-013.png

0151-014.png


Some observations:
  • Naoya states that he is going to attack Maki at his maximum speed; this is prior to the statement about surpassing subsonic speed.
  • It is previously stated that there is a limit to the acceleration allowed by Projection Sorcery, but speed can build up. So Naoya can't instantly move at top speed after a single frame, but he can increase his speed gradually. The timeframe to complete a movement is constant: 1/24 fps, so he would have to gradually increase the distance he is moving per frame to move faster.
  • Maki is overwhelmed by Naoya moving a few meters in 1/24 s, and he runs circles around her. This is Maki getting overwhelmed by what is objectively subsonic speed.
  • The narrator lists multiple reasons Maki is at a disadvantage... and this includes Naoya surpassing subsonic speed. Just in the previous panel Naoya said that he is going to move at top speed; he is one of the fastest characters and he used a speed amp. It is absurd to claim that every mid-tier casually surpasses subsonic speed.
  • We are shown Naoya doing a mach cone while charging in. This is associated with Naoya using Projection Sorcery at top speed, rather than something every mid-tier character can casually do.
Maki is still top-tier even while wounded as she was able to blitz Ohgi, etc. So almost every character downscales from her. She is at a disadvantage in a protracted fight, which means that she is able to perform well in a non-protracted fight even while fatigued.


Earlier we've seen Naoya demonstrating the ability to blitz both Choso and 15 Fingers Yuji, by moving a few meters within 1/24 s... which is objectively subsonic.
0139-016.png
0139-017.png


Yuta failed to blitz Yuji despite stating that he attempted to do so. So this anti-feat applies to the top-tiers.

It is mentioned that Dagon is far superior to Juzo. Let's see how he performed:
0107-017.png


He got blitzed by objectively subsonic speed (movement of a few meters within 1/24 s).

We don't have to assume timeframes and such. The Projection Sorcery technique literally gives us a canonical timeframe which we should use over headcanons and guesstimates... and this canonical timeframe suggests that top-tiers are subsonic to transonic when they are attempting to move very fast.
 
Theendzero13 said:
Lets wait for that them for now we only got theories, also it would also have to fit our criteria for lightning speed
Click to expand...
His lightning should fit the criteria pretty easily. Should be far above regular lightning given his scaling that will probably have it scaling above regular lightnings joule amount.
 
ShadowWhoWalks said:
Making the argument for Subsonic scaling from Projection Sorcery.

Let's look at the statement with context:

0151-012.png

0151-013.png

0151-014.png


Some observations:
  • Naoya states that he is going to attack Maki at his maximum speed; this is prior to the statement about surpassing subsonic speed.
  • It is previously stated that there is a limit to the acceleration allowed by Projection Sorcery, but speed can build up. So Naoya can't instantly move at top speed after a single frame, but he can increase his speed gradually. The timeframe to complete a movement is constant: 1/24 fps, so he would have to gradually increase the distance he is moving per frame to move faster.
  • Maki is overwhelmed by Naoya moving a few meters in 1/24 s, and he runs circles around her. This is Maki getting overwhelmed by what is objectively subsonic speed.
  • The narrator lists multiple reasons Maki is at a disadvantage... and this includes Naoya surpassing subsonic speed. Just in the previous panel Naoya said that he is going to move at top speed; he is one of the fastest characters and he used a speed amp. It is absurd to claim that every mid-tier casually surpasses subsonic speed.
  • We are shown Naoya doing a mach cone while charging in. This is associated with Naoya using Projection Sorcery at top speed, rather than something every mid-tier character can casually do.
Maki is still top-tier even while wounded as she was able to blitz Ohgi, etc. So almost every character downscales from her. She is at a disadvantage in a protracted fight, which means that she is able to perform well in a non-protracted fight even while fatigued.


Earlier we've seen Naoya demonstrating the ability to blitz both Choso and 15 Fingers Yuji, by moving a few meters within 1/24 s... which is objectively subsonic.
0139-016.png
0139-017.png


Yuta failed to blitz Yuji despite stating that he attempted to do so. So this anti-feat applies to the top-tiers.

It is mentioned that Dagon is far superior to Juzo. Let's see how he performed:
0107-017.png


He got blitzed by objectively subsonic speed (movement of a few meters within 1/24 s).

We don't have to assume timeframes and such. The Projection Sorcery technique literally gives us a canonical timeframe which we should use over headcanons and guesstimates... and this canonical timeframe suggests that top-tiers are subsonic to transonic when they are attempting to move very fast.
Click to expand...
Ok so you're in agreement that Naobito should be transonic while he's not at full speed then?
 
Look if you're fine with these characters being transonic then I don't think we need to go through this more.

Naoya (with projection sorcery)
Naobito (with projection sorcery)
Maki (full power, blitzed Ogi who scales to Naobito)
Yuuta (Capable of moving relative to non full speed Naoya)
Choso (in perception speed with frss can perceive ps naoya)
Ogi (Equal to Naobito)
Toji (Comparable to fp maki by several accounts) (if you dont think Maki=Toji it can be discussed later)
Yuji (Capable of moving before Yuuta could blitz him)

I'm probably forgetting a few others but all them are top tiers as of now.
 
God Tiers: Hypersonic-Mhs (depending on calcs getting accepted)

Sukuna, Gojo, Getou

Top Tiers: Subsonic+-Transonic

Majority of Shibuya Incident fits into here with Jogo, Naobito, Mahito, Choso and Yuji fitting here, Uraume (Although i remember a calc for him putting him at supersonic)

Mid Tiers: Subsonic

Inumaki, Panda, and few from Kyoto
 
Nelliels said:
God Tiers: Hypersonic-Mhs (depending on calcs getting accepted)

Sukuna, Gojo, Getou

Top Tiers: Subsonic+-Transonic

Majority of Shibuya Incident fits into here with Jogo, Naobito, Mahito, Choso and Yuji fitting here, Uraume (Although i remember a calc for him putting him at supersonic)

Mid Tiers: Subsonic

Inumaki, Panda, and few from Kyoto
Click to expand...
Drop geto to subsonic/transonic since he does not any feat or lore to put him on gojo/sukuna level(except with maximum uzumaki but it is not his regular stats)
 
Uh pretty sure that the subsonic stuff has been debunked. Stopping a rubber bullet from inches in front of your face is still well out of that range, especially since she is using a realistic magnum and small bullet-like pellets, not balls or large nerf gun-like bullets used in the really slow pellet guns. The bullets had enough power to completely floor Nobara and move her several feet as she was running towards witch girl. Also notice the smoke coming from the chamber indicating it was powder.

For reference, she is likely using a traumatic gun, or gun that fires at high speeds utilizing rubber bullets. These can be found online and have muzzles speed. This one for a mini magnum 38 has a muzzle velocity of 380 m/s. This is pre-kaio ken Maki.

The "superseding sound" thing was already addressed with the databook IIRC. JJK is pretty well out of that territory this seems pretty obvious. As for the frame dude there is a difference between movement speed and reaction speed in addition to his technique being a hax. Just cause characters can react at top end to hypersonic speeds doesn't mean they won't struggle mightily with someone casually moving at that speed. Batters can hit a 90mph baseball, doesn't mean they wouldn't struggle to defend against it blitzing around them at that speed constantly.

Don't agree with the blackflash stuff and think Maki feat should be recalced.
 
Dr._whiteee said:
Uh pretty sure that the subsonic stuff has been debunked. Stopping a rubber bullet from inches in front of your face is still well out of that range, especially since she is using a realistic magnum and small bullet-like pellets, not balls or large nerf gun-like bullets used in the really slow pellet guns. The bullets had enough power to completely floor Nobara and move her several feet as she was running towards witch girl. Also notice the smoke coming from the chamber indicating it was powder.

For reference, she is likely using a traumatic gun, or gun that fires at high speeds utilizing rubber bullets. These can be found online and have muzzles speed. This one for a mini magnum 38 has a muzzle velocity of 380 m/s. This is pre-kaio ken Maki.

The "superseding sound" thing was already addressed with the databook IIRC. JJK is pretty well out of that territory this seems pretty obvious. As for the frame dude there is a difference between movement speed and reaction speed in addition to his technique being a hax. Just cause characters can react at top end to hypersonic speeds doesn't mean they won't struggle mightily with someone casually moving at that speed. Batters can hit a 90mph baseball, doesn't mean they wouldn't struggle to defend against it blitzing around them at that speed constantly.

Don't agree with the blackflash stuff and think Maki feat should be recalced.
Click to expand...
I kinda agree to that but can you send the scan from the databook about the surpassing subsonic?
 
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