Jujutsu Kaisen revision - Part 1: Speed

[Arkenis]

Dude maki literally said "is it because he has surpassed subsonic speed"
In a context that she can't tag him, meaning she has not surpassed that.

Inumaki is not fodder and his attacks have never been dodged by anyone due to their nature been speech and you hear them anyway, and others too, when those using sound attacks gets their attack dodged one way or another you can bring a calc for them.

Maki does not say that… the narrator does, how tf would maki know what speed he’s at or surpassed when she can’t even keep up with him.

 

[PrinceofPein]

Maki does not say that… the narrator does, how tf would maki know what speed he’s at or surpassed when she can’t even keep up with him.

My bad then, does not change anything tho, it means naoya has surpassed it while she has not

 

[Arkenis]

Dude maki literally said "is it because he has surpassed subsonic speed"
In a context that she can't tag him, meaning she has not surpassed that.

Inumaki is not fodder and his attacks have never been dodged by anyone due to their nature been speech and you hear them anyway, and others too, when those using sound attacks gets their attack dodged one way or another you can bring a calc for them.

And inumaki is definitely fodder, he’s getting clapped by Hanami who several characters scale to or above. He also has generally few speed scaling or ap

 

[Arkenis]

My bad then, does not change anything tho, it means naoya has surpassed it while she has not

he already surpassed it is has the statemen, should not be taking it as he has just surpassed it in that moment.

 

[PrinceofPein]

And inumaki is definitely fodder, he’s getting clapped by Hanami who several characters scale to or above. He also has generally few speed scaling or ap

Yeah getting clapped by a special grade does not make you fodder, and hanami did not dodge his attacks (they cannot be dodged)

he already surpassed it is has the statemen, should not be taking it as he has just surpassed it in that moment.

This is irrelevant and I never said he was just surpassing it. I said he already surpassed it while maki has not and it is has simple as that in that context no need to use mental gymnastics to complicate things

 

[Theendzero13]

Yeah getting clapped by a special grade does not make you fodder, and hanami did not dodge his attacks (they cannot be dodged)

This is irrelevant and I never said he was just surpassing it. I said he already surpassed it while maki has not and it is has simple as that in that context no need to use mental gymnastics to complicate things

Gakuganji sound attacks can be reacted and blocked by fodder characters like juuzou, meanwhile people like maki blitzed ogi who is far stronger than juuzou therefore maki is above sound
So your side has:
-one statement that can be implied on a multitude of ways
My side has:

• multiple calcs who show them above sound speed
• a lot of fodder using sound to fights
• characters doing things that sound speed cannot do in-verse

The proponderance of evidence seens to be on my side,
also if you keep interpreting that the statement means that maki is bellow subsonic i will just interpret that maki having her stomach slashed and being put on the verge of death by her father was nerfing her speed
-

 

[PrinceofPein]

Gakuganji sound attacks can be reacted and blocked by fodder characters like juuzou, meanwhile people like maki blitzed ogi who is far stronger than juuzou therefore maki is above sound
So your side has:
-one statement that can be implied on a multitude of ways
My side has:

• multiple calcs who show them above sound speed
• a lot of fodder using sound to fights
• characters doing things that sound speed cannot do in-verse

-

1. Dude for the last time calcs are head canons and will never take precedence over in verse statements
2. first they are not fodders and those using sounds their attacks have never been dodged by the said top tiers or anyone iirc,(juuzou was barely blocking and reacting to gakuganji sounds, from that distance with a calc, it wont be subsonic lmao https://official-ongoing-2.gamindustri.us/manga/Jujutsu-Kaisen/0052-002.png and https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/j...est/scale-to-width-down/220?cb=20210226201651)
3. things sound speed cannot do like what?

also if you keep interpreting that the statement means that maki is bellow subsonic i will just interpret that maki having her stomach slashed and being put on the verge of death by her father was nerfing her speed

How is this suppose to make any sense? in that context it means maki is below subsonic speed nothing more

 

[Arkenis]

Yeah getting clapped by a special grade does not make you fodder, and hanami did not dodge his attacks (they cannot be dodged)

This is irrelevant and I never said he was just surpassing it. I said he already surpassed it while maki has not and it is has simple as that in that context no need to use mental gymnastics to complicate things

I believe you are trying to use mental gymnastics to ignore the evidence for characters being above subsonic. People have already listed several characters having sos ct yet you have this weird notion that Maki and Naoya who are considered Toji level in the series by numerous statements and scaling somehow leads you to believe Inumaki could hit them with his ct. That's mental gymnastics not me thinking Naoya and Maki scale above Subsonic prior to Naoya's statement. And people can dodge Inumaki's technique, its not undodgeable, it's just invisible so no has dodged it.

By your own scaling Cursed speech>Projection sorcery in speed. Read the manga again if you think that.

 

[Arkenis]

1. Dude for the last time calcs are head canons and will never take precedence over in verse statements
2. first they are not fodders and those using sounds their attacks have never been dodged by the said top tiers or anyone iirc,(juuzou was barely blocking and reacting to gakuganji sounds, from that distance with a calc, it wont be subsonic lmao https://official-ongoing-2.gamindustri.us/manga/Jujutsu-Kaisen/0052-002.png and https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/jujutsu-kaisen/images/4/4b/Gakuganji_vs._Juzo_(Anime).gif/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/220?cb=20210226201651)
3. things sound speed cannot do like what?

How is this suppose to make any sense? in that context it means maki is below subsonic speed nothing more

Idk why you're saying calcs are head canon or inverse statements take precedence, if the statements are too inconsistent with the calcs and the already established scaling, they are invalid and shouldn't be used. There's over five above subsonic calcs prior to Naoya's statement and several ct that are sos or exceed sos. Why continue that?

 

[Theendzero13]

1. Dude for the last time calcs are head canons and will never take precedence over in verse statements
2. first they are not fodders and those using sounds their attacks have never been dodged by the said top tiers or anyone iirc,(juuzou was barely blocking and reacting to gakuganji sounds, from that distance with a calc, it wont be subsonic lmao https://official-ongoing-2.gamindustri.us/manga/Jujutsu-Kaisen/0052-002.png and https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/jujutsu-kaisen/images/4/4b/Gakuganji_vs._Juzo_(Anime).gif/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/220?cb=20210226201651)
3. things sound speed cannot do like what?

How is this suppose to make any sense? in that context it means maki is below subsonic speed nothing more

Your interpretation of a Statement is head cannon as well, but even them i already give the reasoning to why even if its true it would be consistent
Second: continuing assume that your interpretation is correct maki being subsonic can be considered an outlier since contrary to popular believe outliers also refer to feats far lower than the character conventional display of power
Third: no reason for one of the zenin clan strongest cursed technice being slower than gakuganji's cursed techinique
Fourth: toji blitzed ino(stronger than juzo) from a even larger distance than the one juuzo had to block gakuganji sound blast
In other words sound cannot blitz juuzou from a certain distance but toji can blitz ino from a comparable or greater distance and a wounded maki can do the same to ogi, therefore maki and toji are above sound and can do things that sound speed cannot do in the jujutsu verse aka:blitzing somebody relevant

 

[Theendzero13]

1. Dude for the last time calcs are head canons and will never take precedence over in verse statements
2. first they are not fodders and those using sounds their attacks have never been dodged by the said top tiers or anyone iirc,(juuzou was barely blocking and reacting to gakuganji sounds, from that distance with a calc, it wont be subsonic lmao https://official-ongoing-2.gamindustri.us/manga/Jujutsu-Kaisen/0052-002.png and https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/jujutsu-kaisen/images/4/4b/Gakuganji_vs._Juzo_(Anime).gif/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/220?cb=20210226201651)
3. things sound speed cannot do like what?

How is this suppose to make any sense? in that context it means maki is below subsonic speed nothing more

Also stop saying that multiple calcs do not take precedence over a single statement for once not everyone agrees to that and i myself believe that feats are better than statements especially when the number of feats outweights the number of statements

 

[Outcast]

Calcs are head canon
In verse statements will always take precedence

Sure, statements take precedence, but calcs can be used as supporting evidence right?

Sound based attacks does not change anything and only 2 people so far uses sound based attacks and they are not random they are top tiers

Actually more than that : Inumaki(Who would prolly lose to a finger bearer), Gakuganji(Probably Grade 1 ish, but no feats to suggest he is Mei Mei/Kubasabe/Nanami level), and Utahime ( Who is Semi Grade 1) and multiple no named people in the Inumaki Clan(a lot of them are likely fodders).I wouldnt call them Top tiers, more like High tiers(Since a finger bearer would likely beat them). This definitely changes a lot...Naoya surpassing subsonic speed is likely an outlier and using it is iffy since even High Tiers have sound speed attacks.Itadori is a lot faster than any of these people, and Naoya statued him.

Piercing blood speed varies and depends on how long and much blood condensed and also distance.
And Naoya is not subsonic, he has surpassed subsonic,

True, the speed is faster at certain points, but its likely sound speed in general(since theres no point in Gege giving us its speed at some random point).Ofcourse Naoya is faster than subsonic, but surpassing subsonic is being used to lowball him here so I dont see why you mentioned that.

 

[Theendzero13]

Should we call some staff members to get to a conclusion here?

 

[Arkenis]

Yes

 

[Arkenis]

Need a final vote on this Naoya stuff Todo thing. I believe other calcs are generally accepted

 

[Theendzero13]

Need a final vote on this Naoya stuff Todo thing. I believe other calcs are generally accepted

The todo perception scale is pretty bad tbh, we better drop it

 

[Theendzero13]

Need a final vote on this Naoya stuff Todo thing. I believe other calcs are generally accepted

On the maki catching a bullet thing the mach 27 one from the manga seens to be the most accurate considering that in her very next panel maki is holding the bullet near hear forehead, and nothing really implies that it is mai imagination, on the gojo dodging an explosion calc we have to decide who scales to it

 

[Arkenis]

On the maki catching a bullet thing the mach 27 one from the manga seens to be the most accurate considering that in her very next panel maki is holding the bullet near hear forehead, and nothing really implies that it is mai imagination, on the gojo dodging an explosion calc we have to decide who scales to it

dk if many scale to him to say others scale besides Sukuna ya know.

 

[Arkenis]

The todo perception scale is pretty bad tbh, we better drop it

im fine with that, Just scale everyone to bos Yuji feats and Maki's bullet and then god tiers can be scaled to Gojo's explosion feat

 

[Theendzero13]

dk if many scale to him to say others scale besides Sukuna ya know.

Yuta atleast should scale considering that
Cursed energy : stats
And yuta got more cursed energy than gojo, therefore higher raw stats

 

[Theendzero13]

dk if many scale to him to say others scale besides Sukuna ya know.

The op also stated that jogo keep up with gojo at those speeds so maybe jogo himself and everyone faster than him(mahoraga,15 fingers sukuna,naobito,naoya) but that is a maybe

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

If there is stuff implying the speed of sound is a limiter for some characters, then regardless of calcs, we have to follow that

 

[Theendzero13]

If there is stuff implying the speed of sound is a limiter for some characters, then regardless of calcs, we have to follow that

The things is that the only example of this require you to
A:assume maki is in peak condition
B: ignore the "surpassed" subsonic
C: ignore how literal sound blasts aren't enough to blitz a fodder but certain characters can blitz actual powerfull people from an even larger distance
D: ignore the many calcs subsonic or above calcs in favor of only one statement

 

[Theendzero13]

If there is stuff implying the speed of sound is a limiter for some characters, then regardless of calcs, we have to follow that

It is like ignoring all of the FTL stuff on one piece because zoro is stated to not run as fast as a gazella

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

The things is that the only example of this require you to
A:assume maki is in peak condition
B: ignore the "surpassed" subsonic
C: ignore how literal sound blasts aren't enough to blitz a fodder but certain characters can blitz actual powerfull people from an even larger distance
D: ignore the many calcs subsonic or above calcs in favor of only one statement

A: This is fair
B: This is fair
C: Are they sound blasts and not just standard shockwaves?
D: Statements>Calcs

 

[Jackof_noTrades068]

Are they sound blasts and not just standard shockwaves?

I’m Gakuganji’s case he literally uses the sound from his guitar and amps it’s offensive power with cursed energy so it should be sound
Regardless, conventional shockwaves are above the speed of sound

 

[Theendzero13]

A: This is fair
B: This is fair
C: Are they sound blasts and not just standard shockwaves?
D: Statements>Calcs

For context the statement is that against naoya who ha surpassed subsonic speed maki who has lost a lot of blood against ogi concluded that a long battle would be unfavorable i genuinelly do not understand how people take this and imply mach is bellow sonic speeds,as a matter of fact maki blocked/reacted attacks from naoya before and after the surpassed subsonic statement, it is chapter 151 if you wanna check out but go after the mangaplus translation since that is the official one

 

[Theendzero13]

One more thing that i want to add is that even if statements are above calcs,is not like this statement is objective it is not being said that maki is bellow sonic speed it is only saying that naoya is faster than subsonic and maki does not want a drow out battle du to her wounds, if somebody intrepret this as maki being bellow sonic speed that is iust their own headcannon and no better than calcs and other people interpretation, the difference being that calcs are far harder to debunk after all you can question timeframe or pixel scale but you cannot debunk math itself

 

[PowerToScale]

In terms of what is being argued. The subsonic is because of multiple calculations that are above subsonic There are 9 accepted calculations (2 are the same feat calculated in different ways). This used to as discredit the subsonic statement as it is heavily contradicted by feats from very early series. (Excluding Sukuna's 15 finger feat in this list).

• Itadori's subsonic+ feat is beginning of series
• Zenin clan members perform subsonic+ feat and are perception blitz by Maki

This is a list of all accepted feats. For those who say statements over feats. Statement can be disregarded enough evidence from feats exists.
Accepted Feat list:
Maki blitz Ogi (Hypersonic)
Maki catches bullet (Assuming she is further back than point blank (Supersonic+))
Itadori (Beginning of series) blitz curse (Subsonic+)
Stone hand speed (Hypersonic, assuming 0.08 (benefit of doubt) Supersonic)
Maki catching bullet point blank as she did High Hypersonic+)
Speed of tree appearing (Supersonic)
Speed of jobber people who can't perceive Maki's movements (Subsonic+)
Geto casual speed(Supersonic)
Sukuna (3 fingers and 15 fingers) speed (Supersonic+(3) and Hypersonic+(15)) 3 fingers scales to Shibuya Toji and Megumi (who would scale to other like Itadori and Nobara) as Shibuya Toji was compared to be as fast as this Sukuna (3 fingers) and Megumi kept up with that Toji)

________
The statement in question is that Naoya “had already surpassed subsonic speeds”, past tense. Naoya prior to fighting Maki at top speeds had already surpassed subsonic speeds in his fight with her earlier. Throughout the fight he was already above subsonic speeds and was continuously growing his speed as it went on. Not only that but this is a Maki that is heavily injured and fatigued too, and because of it is at a disadvantage. This isn’t a healthy maki or 100% Maki. Maki ever since she got injured by Ogi prior to her boost in power and speed was never at a 100% the entire time.

"but she suffered injuries and lost blood fighting Ogi and then fought against the Hei"



_______
There are also characters who can use sound attacks:
Principle of Kyoto (Sound attacks from guitar), Urahime (Cursed technique involves singing) and Inumaki cursed speech (Speaks).

All these characters aren't considered anything special or top tier. The principles sound attack was also blocked by a jobber character too.
_______
In conclusion:

• There are a multitude of feats that contradict the statement or the idea of characters only being subsonic, especially with Beginning of Series character having a subsonic+ feat.
• The statement that is used refers to Naoya's speed earlier in his fight, not the moment of top speed and it also says that Maki is at a disadvantage because of her injuries and fatigue/blood loss, ever since she was injured by Ogi (Prior to the boost). The entire time Maki was never at 100% either. Maki was fighting someone above subsonic speeds and was continuously growing faster, not someone who was subsonic.
• There other characters in the series use sound based attacks, with one of them having their attacks blocked by a fodder character
  

In my opinion, it obvious to me at least that subsonic is nothing but a buzz word to make the moment more hype, in the same statement he also states that Maki has a body of steal despite fight people who can easily destroy steel.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

we can't possibly be discussing the "surpassed subsonic speeds" thing for another page

 

[Theendzero13]

we can't possibly be discussing the "surpassed subsonic speeds" thing for another page

Unfortunely we are, can you share you thoughs ?

 

[Outcast]

Yuta atleast should scale considering that
Cursed energy : stats
And yuta got more cursed energy than gojo, therefore higher raw stats

Wdym by raw stats? I dont think you are implying that Yuta is faster or physically stronger than Gojo, so im genuinely confused

 

[Theendzero13]

Wdym by raw stats? I dont think you are implying that Yuta is faster or physically stronger than Gojo, so im genuinely confused

I mean he likely is... more cursed energy more physical strenght,speed, etc
Geto also though that with rika he would beat jujutsu high(including gojo), gojo and yuta are also both special grade sorcerers with gojo conceding yuta will surpass him and that with himself sealed yuta would still handle kenjaku
Being comparable in physical strenght and speed to gojo while impressive is really not impossible, we know for a fact that geto and gojo were comparable in their teens with gojo just having a massive hax advantage

 

[Arkenis]

Cant really disagree with this tbh, Yuuta should scale to him even if it is on the lower end

 

[Outcast]

I mean he likely is... more cursed energy more physical strenght,speed, etc

I dont think thats how it works.CE likely works similar to say Chakra in naruto.Kid naruto had more chakra than kakashi but wasnt as physically strong.I think CE manipulation matters too.Yuta has absolutely no feats to say he can compare to Gojos raw strength.Gojo is someone who can exorcise people like Jogo and Hanami with JUST physicals.Yuta also compares his physical strength to Yuji("Youre the complete opposite of me.")
Also, if it works that way for strength then it likely also works that way for speed.Gojo is the fastest sorcerer, meaning he is faster than Yuta and thus likely stronger too

Geto also though that with rika he would beat jujutsu high(including gojo), gojo and yuta are also both special grade sorcerers with gojo conceding yuta will surpass him and that with himself sealed yuta would still handle kenjaku

Firstly :He might be talking about it in this way : Gojo wouldnt be able to protect Jujutsu High, he may not be meaning that he would be able to beat Gojo.Even with Rika he has no counter to Domain.Im also pretty sure she cant bypass infinity.
Secondly : Being special grade doesnt mean you are equal to another special grade sorcerer in stats.Geto is also special grade, but he doesnt exactly scale to Gojo.He also never says Yuta will surpass him, just that they will grow to be as strong as him(as adults).This is him talking about their adult versions.He also says this about Yuji(but not Megumi).
Third : Where was it stated he thought that Yuta would handle Kenjaku?AFAIK Gojo only says he would take care of the first years(especially Yuji).Kenjaku is likely stronger than Jogo and Mahito, and both of them have DE.

Being comparable in physical strenght and speed to gojo while impressive is really not impossible, we know for a fact that geto and gojo were comparable in their teens with gojo just having a massive hax advantage

Geto and Gojo were "comparable", Gojo was stronger.Toji had planning,a direct counter to Gojos CT,a kind of counter to Gojos Six Eyes, and had Gojo let guard down during his fight.Gojo was also really exhausted.Despite this he performed a lot better than Geto did(Who got negged) despite being at a massive disadvantage

 

[Theendzero13]

Cant really disagree with this tbh, Yuuta should scale to him even if it is on the lower end

So... assuming the subsonic debate is over the scaling would be like this:
Mid tiers and above:Supersonic+ or high hypersonic depending on which end is accepted
Top tiers and speedsters:hypersonic
(maki,toji,naobito,jogo,naoya,mahoraga,
15 fingers sukuna, geto,yuta) assuming the high hypersonic end gets rejected
God tiers:massively hypersonic(gojo and full power sukuna)

 

[Theendzero13]

I dont think thats how it works.CE likely works similar to say Chakra in naruto.Kid naruto had more chakra than kakashi but wasnt as physically strong.I think CE manipulation matters too.Yuta has absolutely no feats to say he can compare to Gojos raw strength.Gojo is someone who can exorcise people like Jogo and Hanami with JUST physicals.Yuta also compares his physical strength to Yuji("Youre the complete opposite of me.")
Also, if it works that way for strength then it likely also works that way for speed.Gojo is the fastest sorcerer, meaning he is faster than Yuta and thus likely stronger too

Firstly :He might be talking about it in this way : Gojo wouldnt be able to protect Jujutsu High, he may not be meaning that he would be able to beat Gojo.Even with Rika he has no counter to Domain.Im also pretty sure she cant bypass infinity.
Secondly : Being special grade doesnt mean you are equal to another special grade sorcerer in stats.Geto is also special grade, but he doesnt exactly scale to Gojo.He also never says Yuta will surpass him, just that they will grow to be as strong as him(as adults).This is him talking about their adult versions.He also says this about Yuji(but not Megumi).
Third : Where was it stated he thought that Yuta would handle Kenjaku?AFAIK Gojo only says he would take care of the first years(especially Yuji).Kenjaku is likely stronger than Jogo and Mahito, and both of them have DE.

Geto and Gojo were "comparable", Gojo was stronger.Toji had planning,a direct counter to Gojos CT,a kind of counter to Gojos Six Eyes, and had Gojo let guard down during his fight.Gojo was also really exhausted.Despite this he performed a lot better than Geto did(Who got negged) despite being at a massive disadvantage

You actually brought solid points here and i concede to them, yuta should still scale to him in physical strenght but that is for another thread

 

[Arkenis]

So... assuming the subsonic debate is over the scaling would be like this:
Mid tiers and above:Supersonic+ or high hypersonic depending on which end is accepted
Top tiers and speedsters:hypersonic
(maki,toji,naobito,jogo,naoya,mahoraga,
15 fingers sukuna, geto,yuta) assuming the high hypersonic end gets rejected
God tiers:massively hypersonic(gojo and full power sukuna)

Yes this is how it was supposed to be .

 

[Theendzero13]

Yes this is how it was supposed to be .

Sad for yuta thought

 

[Theendzero13]

One more thing no curse on kenjaku's group should scale to jogo the characters,the feats and akutami herself make very clear that jogo is by far the fastest disaster curse