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Ikki's fights, skills and character.

Emo is a pretty good case, but I am not quite as sold with her because at times her character feels lacking to me.

I do like her a fair bit though. Things like telling "Chi-chan" not to go with Maou is very understandable when most of her existence was seeing hundreds and thousands die to his armies.
 
Indeed. It doesn't help that she has been raised to fight and defeat demons since childhood, which Maou (the protagonist) is and is also the ruler of the said demons, along with her thinking that Maou is the one responsible for her father's supposed death. Of course, I admit that there should be a bit more to her character for certain situations.
 
The fact that most of her bonding to Maou kinda went down the toilet and out ot a window in the anime because the director shipped Maou and Chi-Chan didn't sit well with ne though.
 
Yeah, I've recalled that the director of the anime likes Chiho for some reason, so that's probably one of the main reasons why the anime is like that. But hey, at least the light novels (the primary canon) actually seems to be exploring and developing more on the interactions/dynamic between Maou and Emi, and leaving Chiho in the dust (you'll get what I mean when you're up to the later volumes, like say somewhere after Volume 10). :p
 
So Pen, I have a question for you. Do you like underdog stories? Like at all?

I personally think the idea of a character working incredibly hard, shoving back against insurmountable odds with the will to improve and a goal they're striving for, facing off against an overwhelming force and then finding the resolve to put everything they have into winning no matter how badly they have to tear themselves apart, and then suddenly losing anyway because their enemy is too stronk bcuz logic is a revolting notion.

I'm here to see an underdog snatch victory out from the jaws of certain death, not a downer ending because of logical results. It's fiction. Weaklings can beat the strong because it's inspiring, that's the whole point. If I wanted to see a fight proceed logically I would watch a nature documentary.

In case that came of as rude I would like to stress that I have no problem with you having different tastes, I'm just having trouble understanding it.
 
Btw if we are talking about tsunderes, I utterly the loathe the class of that archetype where they just punch and abuse the MC for trivial reasons. Just being cold or rude usually won't be a problem but that really ticks me off
 
That's totally fair. The only tsundere I really like is Rin because she at least is a very transparent one with some really good chemistry with shirou
 
My problems might be mitigated a bit if the MC is actually strong enough to avoid the beating if he wanted, but simply allows it to happen, kinda like City Hunter (not in a masochistic way, just a "doesn't legitimately trouble me" way), but I still wouldn't be fan of violent tsunderes.

Often the guy is a nice person who is physically weaker in this dynamic, and that makes it feel like a typical double standard when a girl just straight up abuses him and doesn't get called out for it in any meanigful manner, a big reason why I don't like the trope much
 
Creaturemaster971 said:
So Pen, I have a question for you. Do you like underdog stories? Like at all?
Click to expand...
Hmm... I guess they can work for some people but personally for me? I hate most of them. Don't get me wrong I don't mind the idea of someone overcoming odds stacked against them through hard work, its when they overcome insurmountable odds my hatred boils over. I see far to many stories where the underdog should lose/die just like everyone who tried before him yet he comes out on top because he's the main character.

To me even if I adore a character that doesn't give them a free pass to win an impossible situation, if they approach a scenario with near astronomical odds of dying/loosing they should do just that, die in a vain attempt to overcome the impossible.

They worked hard tried their best...Guess what I bet there are a thousand others with similar stories of trying there best, only to fail. Why should our protagonist be different? Why does he get to win where so many others failed? What about his training made him so much better then those before him?

In the end I understand people seem to love the underdog coming out on top against impossible odds, all I can think when I see these scenarios is "That's stupid you should have lost/be dead"

I would respect many series far more if they had the guts to kill off torment there main characters, have them rush headfirst against obstacles they cant overcome, have them grind themselves to dust in a desperate bid to win only to fall. All there hard work being a meaningless effort, a commentary about humanities obsession with overcoming the insurmountable and the suffering we bring upon ourselves chasing impossible dreams...
 
"They worked hard tried their best...Guess what I bet there are a thousand others with similar stories of trying there best, only to fail. Why should our protagonist be different? Why does he get to win where so many others failed? What about his training made him so much better then those before him?"

This part makes the most sense to me. And I do agree that it's better when the hero's improvement is a gradient rather than a sudden powerup.

That's part of why the Rakudai novels are, imo, far better than the anime. Even if Ikki has plot on his side (which I can forgive because it's a tournament arc), it at least gives more to the hard-working aspect of him.

Anime Ikki seems to effortlessly surpass people. Nothing light novel Ikki does is effortless.
 
Fair enough and a slow rise in power is far preferable to sudden power ups regardless of series or overarching themes. Still its not enough to sell me on the series, checked out episode twelve at the behest of earl and didn't find anything overly compelling and the overarching theme of skill overcoming improbable odds grinds me in all the wrong ways.

Im into fiction because of fantastical settings/worlds/characters I still desire logic on an intrinsic level, seeing someone over come odds with the excuse its fiction! Annoys me deeply....
 
Underdog stories kind of overlap with a trope I really, really like; Transitioning from a non-threatening, possibly wimpy person, to a badass. However, what I am particularly fond of is a character undergoing a major transformation, both in personality amd competency; which isn't really a characteristic of underdog stories, they will have the character growing stronger but how they are as a person doesn't necessarily need to change
 
I have no problem with characters changning/growing (As long as its well done and explored and not a lazy timeskip) Heck as long as they aren't going against improbable odds and succeeding I might even enjoy them.
 
Don't worry about it, I know my taste are a bit...odd, Im a very logical person and that colors my enjoyment of many things. I can suspend my disbelief of sci-fi and magic but you bring me a story about someone overcoming impossible odds and you've got a rant coming :p

Hmm that's a tough one, Ive been into overlord recently, mostly because power is such a solid concept. No amount of hard work can overcome gaps between certain characters. Gazef could never kill ainz, climb will never be as strong as gazef, braine can spend the rest of his life training but he'll never be able to avenge his fallen comrade. Ainz has some protagonist luck going for him but it doesn't matter because he is so far above just about everything else out there.

tanya the evil has been decent though I worry tanya may actually succeed in her quest to best being x which will kill the series for me personally. But for the moment we have a salary man turned girl trying desperately to deal with all the challenges a cruel god throws upon her. Her struggle is enjoyable to me partially because of how futile it seems. She can struggle for the rest of her life but being x has all the cards. (Im relieved that the author has stated he hates happy endings)

No I lost interest in pokemon after fire red, :p

Hmmm...While it does line up with me wanting protagonist to fail....It doesn't feel like all that many odds were stacked against him, like I said I have no problem with someone pulling out an unlikely victory and ash could have realistically won with some proper strategy/use of different pokemon. the fact he didn't learn after like thirty different tournaments/league is its own problem :p
 
I find that very fascinating. I'm a man who enjoys a great many types of story but I've never really enjoyed unhappy endings unless they're used as more of an open-ended conclusion
 
I don't mind happy endings, but Im not opposed to sad ones either. I don't need my protagnist to succeed, heck as I said earlier i think it could make a good metaphor for human nature and the lengths we go to chasing impossible dreams.


For me it's all about what should logically happen....Which is why I hated most of those saturday morning superhero cartoons, when I first learned what death was the amount of times I asked "Why doesn't he just kill them?" to the tv screen was definitly disturbing :p
 
Hmm just for context. Ikki doesn't win like "lol plot". He actually skills his way through. As in throwing minature suns literally gets outskilled. He finds a way around in some of the most unlikely ways.

Also you missunderstood what i said and i only just now realized. I didn't say "watch ep 12" i said "watch the anime, it's not that long (12 episodes)". The touka fight is literally the shortest fight in the series. If you want to see what true rakudai fights are like check:

Shizuku vs Touka This is my favourite animated fight from the series (and one of my all time favourites, i know you'll like it because it's pretty your style as a fight).

Kuraudo vs Ikki

I would have recommended the first Ikki vs Stella, but it is rather poorly adapted. It was explained WAY better in the novel.
 
Watching the shizuku vs touka fight Im getting more weird vibes from the sister, otherwise....Well it was a solid fight, well animated but it's not a fight I had any problem with, both sides had powerful techniques and while one had an advantage with pseudo invisibility it didn't seem like an insurmountable challenge. While I think logically touka was more lilkly to win shizuku pulling out the win here wasn't beyond the realm of liklyhood/possiblity

Earl the fact he managed to do it at all is the problem, he beat a women who throws suns, said women had tons of advantages from sheer power, range to ee via body heat. Ikki is still the underdog that wins despite the odds. It doesn't matter if he wins via skill, plot, or magic, its the scenario itself I have a problem with. He's up against seemingly insurmountable odds and he wins.

In the end I understand why you and others like it but...Its just a pass from me, sorry.
 
Yeah but why are you treating skill non existent?

She has an advantage in AP, durability and range. But he has a MASSIVE advantage in skill. All of her attacks can be reflected, her heat can be dealt with, her durability can be bypassed with reflection. Him having this skill is what makes it an even fight.
 
Because I don't consider skill to be a deciding factor in fights where one character is massively out ranged, out powered, and has inferior dura. It sounds like ikki is massively out matched and pulls out victory due to skill. Which like I said one side with massive advantages loosing to the other because misc reasons annoys me be it plot, skill or magical mcguffin.
 
That's not a good way to think. So in your oppinion me with a longsword will win against the best assassin simply because of AP and range? Skill is a factor. Ikki is just that.

I mean not gonna judge what you like or dislike, but it seems very flawed to ignore skill as a factor.
 
I consider it a factor when two fighters are close in power, when there aren't massive advantages that should decide the fight. how massive of an ap advantage do you have over the assassin? Do you have a range advantage? does your body heat ee?

If the answers no to range and ee then the assassin takes this, add those two? He's screwed as he tries to hit you ee him or punch him turning him into a fine paste. If you have range you blast him once and go back to bed. He guards with his sword and tries to close the gap you keep backing up and blasting him
 
Why are we ******** and outright insulting a verse? I get not liking it but to insult it over and over, not even critiquing it at points but outright insulting it is in very poor taste, there's plenty of verses that I kinda hate and have a dslike toward but you wont hear me insulting it and calling it trash, it just aint my type of thing, everyone here has different tastes of course. You not liking something doesnt mean it's actual trash.

Especially given were we are, I dont think most of us have the right to talk. Although I havent actually read any of it and untill yesterday thought this whole thing was about the god of highschool so...
 
When did I say it was trash? My criticisms have been far more general dressing tropes and ideas I dislike in fiction overall, while I feel Rakudai kishi no cavalry falls into some of the issues I often have with other areas it doesn't mean its trash or even bad. I simply dislike it. Heck Im having a discussion with earl about my thought processes on why I dislike it.

I still stand by ikki's skill being meme worthy though :p
 
I wasnt even talking to you, meant like, in general.
 
Fair this thread has gone on for a while I suspect many complain because ikki's skill especially without context seems like nonsense even with some context its still...A bit over the top to say the least.
 
These are most of the things that I find odd and dislike about Ikki.

Ikki himself is a strange character, he is far too...complete for a developing protagonist character. He is infact so complete that any kind of combat development feels shallow and forced. His 'skill' seems to reach deus ex machina levels of ridiculousness and it feels like it is set at variable everytime he fights, since the extent of his skill is not shown and connecting back, that makes him difficult to develop.

Now, when actually re-reading parts of Rakudai I really could not stop myself from laughing at some of the overtop descriptions of Ikki because it felt like the author was describing the perfect self insert knight. His character is a Gary Stu and kinda bland a bit like an isekai protagonist, though he is not the especially too bad of a Gray Stu as the past development does exist in forms of exposition and abilities.

Looking at Ikki, he does not quite fit as a standalone protagonist which is why I am glad that Stella exists as the foil to Ikki. If the author allows Ikki to lose again, I would probably want it to be against Stella. Rakudai is a decent read, it has some cool and interesting side characters with quite the amazing fights. Honestly, if the fights keep me on my toes then I probably will continue reading.
 
He is not supposed to be OP but he's not supposed to be weak either. He's supposed to seem "prepared". Otherwise it would all crumble as "skill". It is Ikki in his quest of using skill to fight talent. But although you could classify him as OP he's a good kind of OP that still makes a good and unpredictable fight. You may or may not expect him to win, but you don't know how. And the journey is what makes it enjoyable.
 
Eh, I don't particularly like it, but the only reason Rakudai is being hated is the amount of "GG skill through dat" that is being thrown around. At this point he might as well be put against a immeasurable character and have him go "ye I'll move my sword in just the right way the the guy runs into if, trips, and carves" u mom gae" on his chest by himsrlf".

Honestly, I'm just apathetic to it. I only really dislike verses that are forced down my throat constantly, or one's that either were or could have been really good. Magic fighters isn't that interesting a premise, so I just watched the anime and forgot about it.
 
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