Ikki's fights, skills and character.

[Muchacho_mrm]

@The pen or the sword

>Climb defeating Ainz though Nakama powers as well as other 'hardwork' techniques/powerups

That's when you drop a series, no amount of explaining will patch that large hole of a plot. I get what you mean though, 'THE OVERCOMING' part, but if you avoid Shounen and some isekai's then it's fine though.

I do have to admit that some series have BS moments that you literally have be sniffing the author's as* crack to actually defend/justify it. What you're saying does actually sound like it.

 

[Agnaa]

JoJo rarely does pull the "sudden new techniques in the middle of a battle" card (like that one time Star Platinum could extend its fingers several dozen meters for no reason), and then it's seemingly because Araki wrote himself into a corner.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

There are plenty of people me included who like ikki as a character. It just depends on what you see in him. Personally I saw him as how can skill beat talent? And ikki's just that. If you don't like him that's another problem there is literally no character in any show that is universally liked.

 

[DMUA]

Araki is a master of getting way with stuff he should not be able to

It's what I call the JoJo effect

Or, the Effect that just works

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Though in context none of what ikki does or what anyone does feels like an asspull. That's just fact.

 

[The_pen_or_the_sword]

Todd howard: It JuSt WoRkS!!!!

 

[The_pen_or_the_sword]

Now I must yeet myself from existence....

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Even Shokugeki pulls this sort of thing better in my eyes.

Do you know how many times we see the fact that Yukihira uses things he's tried before in the past, some in important battles and others in a one off moment, and suddenly pulling it together with other things to make a new dish for his cooking battles?

I have seen a literal chef with more than a decade of experience seeing the show out of curiosity, loving yhe hell out of it, and actually predicting a lot based on Yukihira's personality, track record as a chef and things he has done in the past just from seeing the ingredients he's using. There's a causal thread going through all these actions past and present to the future that makes these things believable, and which I think Rakudai fails at many times (but my memory is shitty, so I give it the benefit of the doubt until I can reread it).

Tht this is a cooking show doesn't matter, by the way. This is the very same premise and structure that define many action stories of this type, at least the better ones in my opinion.

Like I said before, Ikki developing his skill to the point he does something absurd like embody the concept of slash in a slash after refining the one thing he was good at a million times feels much more earned and like it makes sense compared to... Skilling his way past explosions, fate manipulation, and becoming a Desperado. He's by Al means goddamn ridiculous, yet it doesn't feel like he's treated like this, and it's so weird.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Again, when has Ikki lost? His past doesn't really mean much if we never saw his glowup.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

He's by Al means goddamn ridiculous, yet it doesn't feel like he's treated like this, and it's so weird.

This is a good explanation take that kudos. You have this guy with absurd levels of skill yet it feels smooth and normal when you actually see him fight.

 

[Muchacho_mrm]

He lacks magic though from what I've read, so that should be supernatural energy or his body mutating, practising a million times doesn't make you mess with reality.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

He has magic, just minimal amounts

 

[DMUA]

Even if his backstory is about losing, the character is introduced at the peak of his supposed development

You don't actually see him grow, you just see him start at the peak of skill and like, does he even go anywhere

It's like if Worm opened up with Skitter going through her millions of illegal dollars and then casually swarming some punks with bugs

Sure I guess there's some surface level cool stuff happening, but the journey there makes the results infinitely more valuable, and even more so when you see what's beyond that

 

[DeathNoodles]

practising a million times doesn't make you mess with reality.

Unless you're Assassin from Fate/Stay Night, or a couple of other absurdly powerful swordsman type characters.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Also, Pen. I know we had this discussion before but do you really prefer conflicts when the winner is decided before the fight begins? That's like, no suspense whatsoever.

 

[The_pen_or_the_sword]

Isn't fate/stay night all about legends coming alive so its not that somone actually practiced something a million times to cut reality its just thats how there legend was told?

 

[The_pen_or_the_sword]

No I don't like fights where the victor is decided before hand, I like even fights where both have a good chance of winning. I despise fights where a clearly more powerful/capable opponent is defeated because the other character is the main character. If I go up against someone stronger, faster, more powerful and with more resources then I have I should die fighting them or atleast loose in a humilating fashion.

 

[DeathNoodles]

Sasaki Kojiro from Fate/Stay Night got all that spatial-distorting stuff based on his legend of cutting down a bird in mid-flight after practising his sword slashes for who knows how many times, so probably.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

@Dmua

He does still grow... tons. The first 2 arcs were basically more growth. Him fighting unfair opponents is a grow though the growth happens mid combat.

 

[DeathNoodles]

He does still grow... tons. The first 2 arcs were basically more growth. Him fighting unfair opponents is a grow though the growth happens mid combat.

There's more meaningful growth to a character than just fighting strong enemies.

 

[DMUA]

What changes about his mindset

Swinging a sword well isn't going to do much but move the plot forward

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Nah. In fate, you get the stuff depending what happened. But things that happened in your legend can add skills or alter some stuff because that's what people perceive.

Since Sasaki didn't exist, someone that could take his place was invoked. So a dude that didn't know how to write or read and practiced cutting down a swallow because he had nothing to do until he achieved a miracle and could summon swords from literal parallel universes was invoked to act as him. For most of the Servants, they have their natural skills or skills that emphasize things they achieved in their life/myth.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

What changes about his mindset

Swinging a sword well isn't going to do much but move the plot forward

Cus the growth is mostly left to stella. His mentality peaked because of idolizing to be something so the i will win is his mentality

Again as i said it depends on what you look at him for. Looking at a dog by judging how well he can swim is obviously gonna make him look lame.

 

[The_pen_or_the_sword]

My dog swims adorably thus I win

 

[The_pen_or_the_sword]

Let me put it like this some acient evil bad guy has sat on a throne for the last thousand years and has killed countless heros come to dethrone him. he has more resources power and ability then I have.

I should loose, more I should never have the opprotunity to become a threat if he's actually competent in his power, I should barge through his castle slay his minions and then die against him as the thousands of others had in a hopless battle I never stood a chance in.

There are gaps that cant be overcome without the writing going "You main character, you win!" I want a realistic take on gaps in strength and power, certain power can't be surpassed through training or skill, sometimes you never stood a chance to begin with. if I win because my enemy is incompetent or doesnt use there powers to there full advatage then it's not a victory it's me winning because Im the main character.

You want me to buy a character overcame that ancient evil? Im gonna need thirty years of training and a bunch of magical mcguffins and even then Im going to complain about the villian not wiping out the hero early or stealing the mcguffins for themselves.

You want me to buy someone beat a superior fighter in combat? training and stratgy are the only way Im going to buy it, event then if the enemy didn't take an obvious opening or use there powers to their fullest to win Im going to complain.

 

[Muchacho_mrm]

'Realistic' gaps in strength would result in main characters that have at-least finished high school with no real way to bridge the gap against older more experienced characters of the verse.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Yes there are such gaps. Ikki vs edel is that gap.

 

[Agnaa]

There are gaps that cant be overcome without the writing going "You main character, you win!" I want a realistic take on gaps in strength and power, certain power can't be surpassed through training or skill, sometimes you never stood a chance to begin with. if I win because my enemy is incompetent or doesnt use there powers to there full advatage then it's not a victory it's me winning because Im the main character.

what if the story literally says that tho?

 

[The_pen_or_the_sword]

Is it played for laughs? That decides it for me

Really what happened in that fight? Did edel kill ikki? Has he ever beaten her?

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Also watch shizuku vs touka. To see everything im talking about

 

[Agnaa]

It's not really played for laughs, it's part of the manga's satire of the shounen genre. It's used as a serious plot point, with one of the antagonists realizing that "the main character always wins" and trying to get around that fact.

 

[DMUA]

Cus the growth is mostly left to stella. His mentality peaked because of idolizing to be something so the i will win is his mentality

Again as i said it depends on what you look at him for. Looking at a dog by judging how well he can swim is obviously gonna make him look lame.

Firstly, you got Einstein's saying wrong, and I take great offense to that fact. It's, "If you judge a fish by it's ability to climb a tree, it would look stupid"

However, in this case, I am judging a character by their ability to just... be a character

Even a flat character can still strengthen their ideology. Izuku starts as a bright eyed kid who wants to save everyone, and he's that to this day, only now he's had to hold it up against breaking his arm like 12 times, fighting several tough opponents he either can't beat alone or has to beat via drawing on his inner, primal desire to punch someone in the face, damaging his arm to the point it threatens to be completely unusable to keep going like this.

From my understanding, Ikki starts as "I got good lol" and he continues to do that for the entire series, just powering up without ever changing that generic and unrealistic ideal

Then again I have a natural bias to fantasies (Not the genre, but the idea of escaping the reality we have to deal with every day and distorting our perceptions for our own happiness, in this case, just working hard automatically solving a natural hindrance)

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

There's even an ability specifically made to, for lack of better words, destroy the Theory of Narrative Causality, so that stuff that should happen by the tenants of Shounen and because it's necessary for the story to continue no matter how improbably unlikely, doesn't happen.

 

[The_pen_or_the_sword]

This gets a maybe from me...If it's meant to be satirical and a sort of commentary on the genre I can see it working, maybe...Hard to say from my perspective, I hate it as a plot device but if its an actual ability/challenge that's meant to be a comment on the nature of the genre... If nothing else its a neat spin on my most hated plot device in fiction...

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Is it played for laughs? That decides it for me

Really what happened in that fight? Did edel kill ikki? Has he ever beaten her?

Edel wasn't serious cus he was a school kid. She still trashed ikki. Then in the last swing he manages to graze her cheek and make her miss a vital strike. Then out of respect she doesn't kill him cus he's unconscious so it'd be shameful. And she's not a bad guy.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

I love how i try to make an example out of einsteins saying and ppl just assume i got it wrong. Ppl please.

 

[The_pen_or_the_sword]

Hmmm and have they ever fought again? Will they? I will respect the series if edel remains beyond ikki in their every encounter. But from what I know im willing to bet ikki will eventually beat via skill.

 

[The_pen_or_the_sword]

Earl you claimed my dogs swimming was unimpressive, I was inherently insulted

 

[Agnaa]

There's even an ability specifically made to, for lack of better words, destroy the Theory of Narrative Causality, so that stuff that should happen by the tenants of Shounen and because it's necessary for the story to continue no matter how improbably unlikely, doesn't happen.

ima just reword this since I know what you're talking about, but I find your explanation hard to follow.

There's even an ability created that nullifies any coincidence, and prevents the whims of fate from interfering with what happens, essentially removing all that makes a main character special. You won't be spared by the whim of your enemy, you won't fight from weakest to strongest in a tournament, when all is lost you won't come up with a strategy to turn the tables, and more.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Hmmm and have they ever fought again? Will they? I will respect the series if edel remains beyond ikki in their every encounter. But from what I know im willing to bet ikki will eventually beat via skill.

They meet again they find out she grows at a pace way beyond theirs. In their 2nd bout its less stompy but it's still in edel's favour. She accepts him as a worthy opponent though.