Hax vs Tier 2/1/0 (lower dimensional hax vs higher dimensional physiology)

[DontTalkDT]

I will get to other posts later, thought I should address this first.
For the record, I think I agree with Ultima's explanation of my explanation for the most part. (Well, actually I think for the mind part we would just assue negatively where we have no reason to assume the positive)
To further explain my stance, though:

When it comes to physical hax, though, things might differ a bit: Even though we might not consider higher-dimensional entities to automatically have infinitely greater AP, they still do encompass an infinitely larger volume of space than lower-dimensional beings. So, how would treat, say, manipulating a higher-dimensional entity's body on an atomic level, and similar cases? @DontTalkDT

I mean, that depends.
For a start, things like attacking on a subatomic level (e.g. with an atom cutting sword) wouldn't circumvent durability on High 3-A levels or above. If the power difference between your attack and the targets durability is infinite, then so is the difference between your attack's power and their atoms durability. Once literally infinite gaps are involved stuff like that just becomes inevitable. So a Tier 3 or lower character manipulating atoms (e.g. via telekinesis) would usually be resisted by basically anything Tier 2/1/0 and successfully doing so to an entity with that Tier would imply smurf power, if not straight up an upgrade in AP for that ability.
Doing it to a higher-dimensional entity that is not Tier 2/1/0 in durability, would be a feat of higher-dimensional range/AoE, but since they don't really have that durability it would not be a showing of potency. A higher dimensional entity, held together by higher dimensional forces, could in principle also have finite atoms and all that.
An exception here would be what I briefly mentioned in the orginal post:

It's another matter if the feat generally qualifies for a higher tier by the size of the effect, such as using EE on a character the size of a higher-dimensional universe.

To clarify what I mean with that: If the higher-dimensional character is so large that destroying its body would usually be a Tier 2/1/0 feat regardless of its durability, then affecting its entire body with a physical hax like atomic manipulation would also be a feat of Tier 2/1/0 hax (smurf hax).

To make a second, slightly different, example: Converting a targets matter to energy and killing them that way. That would still work fine if the character is tier 2/1/0 in stats only.
If they are on a higher (reality-fiction) plane they would resist it due to the power being fictional to them and affecting them with the power anyway would be a demonstration of smurf potency.
As for using it against higher-dimensional entities: It's again definitely a range/AoE feat as that would be required. If said entity is not of significant higher-dimensional size (i.e. not the size where destroying it via AP would be a Tier 2/1/0 feat, regardless of what its durability is), then it would not be a potency feat regardless of whether the higher dimensional character has Tier 2/1/0 durability or not. If the character is of significant higher-dimensional size (in the prior sense), then transforming the entire body of that character into energy would be a smurf (Tier 2/1/0 hax) feat.
Consequently, just baseline energy conversion hax couldn't immediately kill a higher-dimensional entity of significant size (in prior sense) due to lacking the AoE showings for affecting something that large in a significant way, even if it could harm non-significantly large higher dimensional entities. It would only make small holes (which, to be fair, could under certain circumstances or given enough accumulating damage still end up lethal, provided the attacker has higher dimensional range/AoE).

So in summary:

So affecting higher D is depending AP and range or what

It can depend on both or just range/AoE. Depends on which hax we are talking about and how large the higher-dimensional entity is.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

And why we are dictating standards >>> The verse own logic.

We are not. We are just establishing some basic standards with which to judge verses that don't provide any elaboration on these aspects or implications of a higher-dimensional physiology. If the verse does elaborate and establishes its own logic that contradicts ours, we just concede and use that instead, it's that simple.

And how generic Higher D are affected ? The AP doenst matter when The ''composition'' of those characters are Higher D, their ''composition'' is no diferent from non generic Higher D. How they are diferent again ?

You do have a point in regards to hax that affects what many verses portray as non-physical aspects of reality (Conceptual Manipulation, for example), but abilities that revolve around elements that may or may not be applicable in the usual sense to a certain point of a cosmology are a different story, because higher-dimensional entities can indeed have a different composition beyond their basic nature that meaningfully affects their tiering.

Hypothetically speaking, you'd have a much easier time using Gravity Manipulation (At high enough levels where it actually works as hax, obviously) on a 5-dimensional lifeform or object whose mass is finite and who lives in an universe with physical laws that are just slightly modified because of the additional axis than on a 5-dimensional construct that's comprised of an uncountably infinite amount of 4-D spacetimes "glued" to each other and is portrayed as residing in some realm external to lower-dimensional spacetimes entirely. The specific context behind each case, and whether or not they fall on a higher tier, is very relevant here.

 

[Bernkastelll]

So, affecting a 4-D mind is infinitely superior to affecting a 3-D mind or nah?

 

[Delta333]

So, affecting a 4-D mind is infinitely superior to affecting a 3-D mind or nah?

yes for the obvious reason

 

[Bernkastelll]

yes for the obvious reason

Noice, I thought they wanted to remove it, but I just misread the comments

 

[EFÍTÉ]

Hypothetically speaking, you'd have a much easier time using Gravity Manipulation (At high enough levels where it actually works as hax, obviously) on a 5-dimensional lifeform or object whose mass is finite and who lives in an universe with physical laws that are just slightly modified because of the additional axis than on a 5-dimensional construct that's comprised of an uncountably infinite amount of 4-D spacetimes "glued" to each other and is portrayed as residing in some realm external to lower-dimensional spacetimes entirely. The specific context behind each case, and whether or not they fall on a higher tier, is very relevant here.

The main problem is the way range is being used here to switch potency.

The entire concept of Higher D >>>> Lower D comes from potency, and range would make the entire tiering into just DeathBattle way of doing scalling and 1-A and above still gets keeps untouched.

I can list the problems.

Why by default reaching Higher D areas = Being able to interact with Higher D areas ? Reaching X doenst mean you can interact with X, by that logic alot of verses would be upgraded by just reaching Higher D while Y character can do nothing there.

Alot of verses are going to get free range and speed upgrade despite breaking scalling.

Alot of verses dont have Higher D range and they still can interact with Higher D areas or characters, which shows how fiction ignores the range stuff.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Yeah me too....this range stuff for hax has some problems I feel

Destroying a timeline can just be rated as 3A with temporal range( and even temporal AoE feels like cause and effect shenanigans which hardly contributes for AP), losing reason of low2C existance. Since fiction most often than not show 3A destruction but low2C happen.

So whats the difference now between them? Both hax and AP( or destrctive capacity since range is a factor in that) can be equivalenced here.

 

[Secretly_domain]

I'm kinda confused with such long paragraph

Basically dimension and dimensionality is different am I right

Dimension is scale on how much dimension is, meanwhile dimensionality is the axis

So we're using both of it to apply the hax?

 

[Nepuko]

Ok, first, nothing of this is about standard AP or Durability matters, so I don't really understand why you think this would have any effect on the tiering system. When it comes to hax "A<B<C => A < C" kinds of tiering logic never applied.
I'm also not sure where you get the idea from that Bigbrain is acausal. Reality-Fiction doesn't automatically make acausal.
It sounds like you think BigBrain and Mister Verse would have the same kind of existence, but that isn't true. They have very different physiologies.
A geometrical Tier 2 is still a proper Tier 2, an attack without hax can't kill them with any less Attack Potency than that, it's just that their interaction with certain hax is different.
Similar things exist purely in 3D. Consider a sentient planet, who has planet level durability due to its size, and a human-sized planet level character. A tier 7-B character would probably lack the strength to press a pressure point on the human sized character. However, with enough AoE, they might manage it in the case of the planet. On the other hand, a 5-B character with 1m AoE could press the pressure point on the human sized character, but its AoE would be too small to press the entire pressure paint on the planet

Note : I came back from exam so I didn't catch up to the thread, I'm merely responding.

That's my point, yeah.

It was about AP in the sense that you need nothing less than Tier 2 to kill a Tier 2 being be it in hax or power, while your thread seemed to imply to me that those who hit types of beings like Mister Verse aren't smurfs (as in, have higher D hax) but have simply range. My point was that you still need potency to kill such beings and not mere range, hence both Case number 2 with Bigbrain and Case number 3 are smurfs, merely different types as they have different physiologies. I guess my post was perhaps confusing, but this is where the AP/Dura came from in my post.
Well, Acausal was perhaps a bad way to put it, but I meant it in the old Type 10 (or maybe was it 9?) Immortality where your true self is "detached". Basically what you explained in Case 2.

Yeah for the 3D bit, which was also my point. They have different range but similar potency. So if a 2-D being had the power to press/knock out only a human or destroy a planet, they have 3D stuff and are smurfs. But of course, they are vastly inferior to other 2D beings who can destroy all galaxies in a universe somehow. But both are 3D. Unless I'm wrong on what smurf mean lol.

But well, since we seem to agree anyway from my pov, consider my issue removed.

 

[Livinmeme]

so... is this accepted if is accepted what is gona change appart from hax working different?

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

This CRT is nothing but guidelines to regulate what hax count for smurf and what don't in Vs threads, since smurf itself is a informal concept in vs battling.
Profiles aren't affected in anyway.

Atleast thats what I understand

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

They aren't, but how the profiles would be used is royally ****** because the logic being used here makes no sense and screws with a lot of other more important things.

 

[Secretly_domain]

Lol hax scales both attack potency and range

 

[Rikimarox2]

Actually, how would this affect a character getting their powers from a higher dimensional being or source?

Can they get powernulled if they haven't shown resistances to normal power nulls?

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out to DontTalk and Ultima.

What are the summarised conclusions so far here, and should I send notifications to more staff members?

 

[Bernkastelll]

Impact on Smurfs​

This revision also has a potential impact on which abilities that harmed Tier 2/1/0 characters would be considered smurf and in which way.
Generally speaking, a lower-dimensional character that manages to harm a higher dimensional one, would only get an upgrade to the AoE/range of their hax to be higher-dimensional. It can't generally be considered to be more powerful than all or most lower-dimensional versions anymore. At least by default. It's another matter if the feat generally qualifies for a higher tier by the size of the effect, such as using EE on a character the size of a higher-dimensional universe.
Those that only affected characters with higher tier stats, but without a reason to assume resistance, would not be considered smurf at all.
Only those that affected a being on a higher plane of existence, like in the reality-fiction example, can by default be considered to have hax on a full Tier 2/1/0 level that is more powerful than regular lower plane hax. And that only if it's not one of the exceptions mentioned regarding their resistances.

---

So, let me see if I understood, let's assume that the 4-D being here see the 3-D beings as legit fictional characters, so, the 4-D being obviously is totally unbound by the limitations of a 3-D being, sure, but if a 3-D being from this verse could Mindhax the 4-D being, this would means that the hax is legit Higher Dimensional?

 

[Delta333]

if a 3-D being from this verse could Mindhax the 4-D being, this would means that the hax is legit Higher Dimensional?

from what I know if 4-D being can perceive 3-D one as fiction in this case then yes,that mind hax is infinitely superior to normal 3-D mind hax not only in term of range but also in term of potency(aka being smurf hax)

 

[Antvasima]

@AKM sama @SomebodyData @The_real_cal_howard @Dragonmasterxyz @Celestial_Pegasus @Soldier_Blue @Saikou_The_Lewd_King @Andytrenom @Wokistan @Qawsedf234 @ByAsura @Damage3245 @Starter_Pack @Abstractions

Would you be willing to give input here please?

 

[Ogbunabali]

Speaking of making higher dimensional hax be treated as range now, I'm assuming we're going to do this in the reverse as well?

As in if you get attacked by a 7 dimensional bullet it no longer 1 shots anything lower than 7D because only the 3D part of it will affect a 3D being and so on.

 

[Vietthai96]

Speaking of making higher dimensional hax be treated as range now, I'm assuming we're going to do this in the reverse as well?

As in if you get attacked by a 7 bullet it no longer 1 shots anything lower than 7D because on the 3D part of it will affect a 3D being and so on.

Now that you lost me, what do you mean?

 

[deonment]

if you get hit by a 7D bullet it doesn't one shot anymore since it would only affect the 3D parts of a person

 

[Livinmeme]

Question then this would make HD hax just range now because if is then i disagree because by that logic AP from 4D and beyond is just range and that would be... yes

 

[deonment]

Hax and ap that is based on Qualitively higher dimensions but not other methods of transcendance

 

[Planck69]

Question then this would make HD hax just range now because if is then i disagree because by that logic AP from 4D and beyond is just range and that would be... yes

Power still has to follow inverse square law though, so I have no idea how you got to this conclusion.

 

[First_Witch]

People that are against what is proposed to the OP, are we all actually on the same boat here? DT makes a clear distinction between higher dimensions and higher planes of existance. Nothing changes for smurfs who can affect beings that are infinitly superior to them, this just seperates higher dimensional beings from that. You know, the same way we seperated higher dimensional beings from our tiering system?

I agree with what is proposed here, i find the logic sound

 

[Avengershows]

People that are against what is proposed to the OP, are we all actually on the same boat here? DT makes a clear distinction between higher dimensions and higher planes of existance. Nothing changes for smurfs who can affect beings that are infinitly superior to them, this just seperates higher dimensional beings from that. You know, the same way we seperated higher dimensional beings from our tiering system?

I agree with what is proposed here, i find the logic sound

So i.e. if a character exists at a higher dimension, and another character's hax works on said character, they're still smurf?

 

[First_Witch]

That solely depends on what you mean with higher dimensions. If you are talking about actual higher infinites, planes of reality that are infinitly superior to their previous, lower plane then yes, that is smurf hax. Geometrical dimensions, dimensions that are just higher spatial planes would not. Just ask yourself this, is the fourth dimension i am talking about eligible for a higher tier? When yes, it is smurf.

 

[Planck69]

Just ask yourself this, is the fourth dimension i am talking about eligible for a higher tier? When yes, it is smurf.

I mean, from what I understand even affecting 4-dimensional beings in the Tier 2 sense will be range.

 

[Avengershows]

That solely depends on what you mean with higher dimensions. If you are talking about actual higher infinites, planes of reality that are infinitly superior to their previous, lower plane then yes, that is smurf hax. Geometrical dimensions, dimensions that are just higher spatial planes would not. Just ask yourself this, is the fourth dimension i am talking about eligible for a higher tier? When yes, it is smurf.

okay so i.e. if the higher dimensional existence is described as a reader and the non HD as a novel character that can easily be destroyed along with the entire book and that the reader aka the hd guy can never be affected by a lower dimensional being, would that be smurf or no? I'm not very good at decoding comparisons like that

 

[First_Witch]

I mean, from what I understand even affecting 4-dimensional beings in the Tier 2 sense will be range.

Then you have misunderstood something, because that is clearly covered in the Higher Plane of existance section in the OP

 

[First_Witch]

okay so i.e. if the higher dimensional existence is described as a reader and the non HD as a novel character that can easily be destroyed along with the entire book and that the reader aka the hd guy can never be affected by a lower dimensional being, would that be smurf or no? I'm not very good at decoding comparisons like that

Me neither, its all contextual. All im going to answer to that specific example is, if you can get that accepted as a proper tiering, Dont know what being infinitly superior to a 3 dimensional universe makes you (i think low-2C?) then yes, that would be smurf.

 

[Avengershows]

Me neither, its all contextual. All im going to answer to that specific example is, if you can get that accepted as a proper tiering, Dont know what being infinitly superior to a 3 dimensional universe makes you (i think low-2C?) then yes, that would be smurf.

I c

 

[Livinmeme]

oh okay then if the HD tracends then is ap and range but if they are spatial is just range?

 

[First_Witch]

oh okay then if the HD tracends then is ap and range but if they are spatial is just range?

Exactly.

 

[Teezar]

That solely depends on what you mean with higher dimensions. If you are talking about actual higher infinites, planes of reality that are infinitly superior to their previous, lower plane then yes, that is smurf hax. Geometrical dimensions, dimensions that are just higher spatial planes would not. Just ask yourself this, is the fourth dimension i am talking about eligible for a higher tier? When yes, it is smurf.

What's smurf hax?

 

[Livinmeme]

I am so confused but now i am less

 

[First_Witch]

What's smurf hax?

A inofficial term used in Vs Debating (Dont know if any other platform other than us uses it) that describes hax that can affect beings that are tiering wise higher than themself, for example a 9-B character with Mindhax that can affect 1-A characters. Its noteable because such smurf hax is basically just one step away from being physically slapped with that level of power.

 

[Livinmeme]

Question is a object is 8 dimensional but lower D characters cant percieve it and also other characters have sayed that the dimensions are very large is spatial Dimensional or trancedent dimensional or whatever is the name they put it here?

 

[First_Witch]

Question is a object is 8 dimensional but lower D characters cant percieve it and also other characters have sayed that the dimensions are very large is spatial Dimensional or trancedent dimensional or whatever is the name they put it here?

By what you have provided, that is just a spatial dimension. For it to be a infinitly superior higher plane of existance, it needs statements of superiority for it to count. In fact, just mentioning that it is very big, probably compared to lower dimensions? is a pretty good indicator that it is just spatial.

But please, no more questions of that sort here, this is not the topic at hand

 

[Fixxed]

Question about this

Example:

Autarchs have truly transcended beyond all things. They are absolutely invincible, and neither spacetime nor karma nor anything else have any impact on them at all

If autarch still affect by Time space manip, Does this make space- time manipulation that gives effect to autarch is Infinitely stronger than 4d space time manipulation?

Note: - i am not claiming autarch is 5d or l1c
- the fiction is consistent in this case