Hax vs Tier 2/1/0 (lower dimensional hax vs higher dimensional physiology)

[Teezar]

A inofficial term used in Vs Debating (Dont know if any other platform other than us uses it) that describes hax that can affect beings that are tiering wise higher than themself, for example a 9-B character with Mindhax that can affect 1-A characters. Its noteable because such smurf hax is basically just one step away from being physically slapped with that level of power.

E.g 5-A hax affecting low 1-C is a smurf hax?

 

[First_Witch]

E.g 5-A hax affecting low 1-C is a smurf hax?

Correct.

 

[Livinmeme]

pretty sure that the super string theory is tracendent HD? or this just broke all my knowlodge of dimensions and i am trying to recover it

 

[Delta333]

E.g 5-A hax affecting low 1-C is a smurf hax?

not really,in many cases it's not always smurf hax that superior to lower D hax
"Generally speaking, a lower-dimensional character that manages to harm a higher dimensional one, would only get an upgrade to the AoE/range of their hax to be higher-dimensional. It can't generally be considered to be more powerful than all or most lower-dimensional versions anymore."

 

[First_Witch]

not really,in many cases it's not always smurf hax that superior to lower D hax
"Generally speaking, a lower-dimensional character that manages to harm a higher dimensional one, would only get an upgrade to the AoE/range of their hax to be higher-dimensional. It can't generally be considered to be more powerful than all or most lower-dimensional versions anymore."

You have literally skipped the important entire block of text that follows that...

 

[Livinmeme]

not really,in many cases it's not always smurf hax that superior to lower D hax
"Generally speaking, a lower-dimensional character that manages to harm a higher dimensional one, would only get an upgrade to the AoE/range of their hax to be higher-dimensional. It can't generally be considered to be more powerful than all or most lower-dimensional versions anymore."

pretty sure that that affecting HD doesnt bring hd ap anymore just range got debunked

 

[First_Witch]

pretty sure that the super string theory is tracendent HD? or this just broke all my knowlodge of dimensions and i am trying to recover it

You will have more luck asking Ultima and Dt directly regarding String theory. Im not wellversed in physics enough to answer that.

 

[Delta333]

You have literally skipped the important entire block of text that follows that...

I mean the final part is the conclusion of everything,isn't it?also I don't say affecting higher D is always non smurf

pretty sure that that affecting HD doesnt bring hd ap anymore just range got debunked

but...this thread is about affecting higher D=only higher range in some situations...

 

[First_Witch]

I mean the final part is the conclusion of everything,isn't it?

"Only those that affected a being on a higher plane of existence, like in the reality-fiction example, can by default be considered to have hax on a full Tier 2/1/0 level that is more powerful than regular lower plane hax. And that only if it's not one of the exceptions mentioned regarding their resistances."

also I don't say affecting higher D is always non smurf

but...this thread is about affecting higher D=only higher range in some situations...

It actually is nearly always non smurf, because higher dimensions, as described in the op, refer to geometrical dimensions, that, while higher in size, are not infinitly superior to lower ones without evidence. They don't fulfil the conditions for smurf hax because they don't fulfil the condition of being a higher tier.

 

[Delta333]

They don't fulfil the conditions for smurf hax because they don't fulfil the condition of being a higher tier.

I mean in final part it said something like affecting higher tier like 2/1/0 is not smurf sometimes

 

[First_Witch]

I mean in final part it said something like affecting higher tier like 2/1/0 is not smurf sometimes

Please dont make me go through the text with you, please...

 

[Antvasima]

People that are against what is proposed to the OP, are we all actually on the same boat here? DT makes a clear distinction between higher dimensions and higher planes of existance. Nothing changes for smurfs who can affect beings that are infinitly superior to them, this just seperates higher dimensional beings from that. You know, the same way we seperated higher dimensional beings from our tiering system?

I agree with what is proposed here, i find the logic sound

DontTalk seems to make sense to me as well.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

So if i got this right:

A lower D character that affects a higher D character that sees the universe for example as fictional, would still be a smuf.

A lower D character that affects a character that is geometrical higher dimensional, as in being infinitely larger than lower dimensions, would just get range, and not be a smurf?

A character that only affects another one who is like 2-C, but shows no indication of being higher dimensional, wouldn't have smurf hax.

 

[Secretly_domain]

Finally someone that explained long sentences simply can understand instead whole paragraph

 

[Antvasima]

So if i got this right:

A lower D character that affects a higher D character that sees the universe for example as fictional, would still be a smuf.

A lower D character that affects a character that is geometrical higher dimensional, as in being infinitely larger than lower dimensions, would just get range, and not be a smurf?

A character that only affects another one who is like 2-C, but shows no indication of being higher dimensional, wouldn't have smurf hax.

@DontTalkDT @Ultima_Reality

 

[Bernkastelll]

I have another question, so, affecting a geometrical higher dimensional is not smurf hax anymore, but what if the Geometrical in the verse also has Reality fiction interaction?

 

[Planck69]

I have another question, so, affecting a geometrical higher dimensional is not smurf hax anymore, but what if the Geometrical in the verse also has Reality fiction interaction?

Not sure what this really means? If you mean affecting a character who's Low 1-C via being infinitely large across 5 dimensions then it's still range.

 

[First_Witch]

I have another question, so, affecting a geometrical higher dimensional is not smurf hax anymore, but what if the Geometrical in the verse also has Reality fiction interaction?

If the higher dimension is views the lower dimension as fiction then that is smurf hax. It being geometrical is unimportant.

 

[SagaTheLegend]

Dante has my condolences. I wish I was the one who could have filled his 4d Smurf Soul with Liiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight, but seems like even the power of friendship of the United Pet Verse Crew wasn't enough to stop the inner darkness inside each one of us debaters from taking over the wikia

Wonder if SmurfBlue will be affected by this as well. May the light of the glass shine upon this tunnel of darkness and strike down the heart of evil so the verse can stay in the right path.

I'm really sorry. Seeing the state this website really saddens me. A real shame on the wikia for banning my memes into complete darkness and oblivion. ,_,

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

Seeing as Don't seems to have jumped ship, I guess I'll reiterate my problems with this entire idea that he seems to find himself unable to argue against.

Essentially, his entire argument is that there is no real difference between a normal human and a higher-dimensional being other than sheer size. This just sounds stupid, and that it is, as it's not only self-contradictory but also just profoundly wrong if you think for any length of time whatsoever. How exactly are they the same if the higher-dimensional being is actually capable of meaningfully responding to it's higher-dimensional environment? How exactly are they the same when the OP literally admits that there is at least one utterly massive difference, that only doesn't matter here because Don't says it does? The list goes on: it simply makes 0 sense.

And then we get to this:
"
Generally speaking, a lower-dimensional character that manages to harm a higher dimensional one, would only get an upgrade to the AoE/range of their hax to be higher-dimensional. It can't generally be considered to be more powerful than all or most lower-dimensional versions anymore. At least by default. It's another matter if the feat generally qualifies for a higher tier by the size of the effect, such as using EE on a character the size of a higher-dimensional universe.
Those that only affected characters with higher tier stats, but without a reason to assume resistance, would not be considered smurf at all.
Only those that affected a being on a higher plane of existence, like in the reality-fiction example, can by default be considered to have hax on a full Tier 2/1/0 level that is more powerful than regular lower plane hax. And that only if it's not one of the exceptions mentioned regarding their resistances.
"

This is at the bottom of the OP for any who want confirmation that I'm not making this shit up, because I lack that creativity myself. Anyways, this is essentially saying that hax affecting a higher-dimensional being is only itself higher-dimensional. rather than just wide-ranged, if the user is themselves higher-dimensional as the target. This is, of course, a completely arbitrary statement with literally negative reasons to be the case. Remember the statement above, about the lack of differences here? Well, Don't has managed to completely destroy his own argument by at one point saying that there is no difference but at another saying that there is some innate, undefined and unstated difference that completely changes the nature of a power. So either there actually is no difference, and thus this entire venture has been completely ******* pointless, or there is a difference but what exactly it is, why it exists, and why exactly it results in this to begin with are all entirely unexplained and pulled from Don'ts ass.

And before I get anything about trying to reduce this to being on a case-by-case basis, especially from Don't himself: if you're willing to create a compromise that so utterly negates the entire point of making this thread by leaving it in the hands of people you are indirectly making out to be stupid, why the hell did you make it in the first place?

 

[Darksmash]

Essentially, his entire argument is that there is no real difference between a normal human and a higher-dimensional being other than sheer size. This just sounds stupid, and that it is, as it's not only self-contradictory but also just profoundly wrong if you think for any length of time whatsoever. How exactly are they the same if the higher-dimensional being is actually capable of meaningfully responding to it's higher-dimensional environment? How exactly are they the same when the OP literally admits that there is at least one utterly massive difference, that only doesn't matter here because Don't says it does?

Uhh, he literally said there is a difference of size, not that they are the exact same. And that results in a range boost

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

ok, and?

I literally opened with that caveat, y'know, and it's real cute of you to ignore everything else I said over one minor "issue"

And besides, it's not like Don't even makes any reasonable case for that logic holding up beyond an example involving poison that while admittedly true is in no possible way indicative of every other ability.

 

[Darksmash]

it's real cute of you to ignore everything else I said over one minor "issue"

It's because I was unable to decipher what you were saying there, as what you quoted was talking about higher planes of existence like ones that see the lower one as fiction, not geometric higher D existence

 

[Bernkastelll]

It's because I was unable to decipher what you were saying there, as what you quoted was talking about higher planes of existence like ones that see the lower one as fiction, not geometric higher D existence

im sorry but what is geometric higher d existence?

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

It's because I was unable to decipher what you were saying there, as what you quoted was talking about higher planes of existence like ones that see the lower one as fiction, not geometric higher D existence

... how, exactly? That's not anywhere in that text and even if it was, it's nothing but Don't stating that he is correct without any actual evidence.

 

[First_Witch]

im sorry but what is geometric higher d existence?

Belldandy is one. Shes a higher dimensional being whose entire existance is too big for the universe, but there is no mentioned existential superiority, so she dosnt get a higher tier through that.

 

[Darksmash]

im sorry but what is geometric
higher d existence?

Spatial higher dimensions. You know like length, breadth, height, omegaheight

... how, exactly? That's not anywhere in that text and even if it was, it's nothing but Don't stating that he is correct without any actual evidence.

"Only those that affected a being on a higher plane of existence, like in the reality-fiction example, can by default be considered to have hax on a full Tier 2/1/0 level that is more powerful than regular lower plane hax. "

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

Belldandy is one. Shes a higher dimensional being whose entire existance is too big for the universe, but there is no mentioned existential superiority, so she dosnt get a higher tier through that.

this is extremely misleading and should be evidence for a higher tier if it was correct

you can;t just outright be larger than the universe and somehow have a lower tier. That's not anything related to higher-dimensions, not in any complicated way, or reality-fiction interaction in any way.

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

"Only those that affected a being on a higher plane of existence, like in the reality-fiction example, can by default be considered to have hax on a full Tier 2/1/0 level that is more powerful than regular lower plane hax. "

except I did address that, and how that interpretation of events is entirely arbitrary and even contradicted by Don'ts own logic prior to that point.

 

[First_Witch]

I mean, this is why i asked if everyone was actually in the same boat, because multiple people seem to read vastly different things from the op... Are we all aware that being higher dimensional is not equal to being higher tiered right?

 

[First_Witch]

this is extremely misleading and should be evidence for a higher tier if it was correct

you can;t just outright be larger than the universe and somehow have a lower tier. That's not anything related to higher-dimensions, not in any complicated way, or reality-fiction interaction in any way.

It is correct, but her highest shown feat is literally planet level. Characters being a threat to Belldandy can't destroy the physical universe on their own, etc etc.

 

[Bernkastelll]

Well ye, being bigger than something doesnt means that we can destroy things thing, in the same way that a human cant destroy a bowling ball despite being bigger than it, i guess its valid to say that being bigger doesnt means that the character scales to it

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

I mean, this is why i asked if everyone was actually in the same boat, because multiple people seem to read vastly different things from the op... Are we all aware that being higher dimensional is not equal to being higher tiered right?

again, that example has nothing to do with the complicated part of the dimensionality shit. Everyday people can understand the three dimensions of space and the one of time, because that's not an unusual thing.

And even then, that's already how things are? "Higher-dimensional" or random mentions of the word dimension already require significant evidence to actually count, y'know.

 

[Darksmash]

except I did address that, and how that interpretation of events is entirely arbitrary and even contradicted by Don'ts own logic prior to that point.

Where exactly did you address that?

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

Well ye, being bigger than something doesnt means that we can destroy things thing, in the same way that a human cant destroy a bowling ball despite being bigger than it, i guess its valid to say that being bigger doesnt means that the character scales to it

except that is a completely irrelevant comparison. A bowling ball is made of materials that are very durable compared to the human body. Assuming this thing with Belldandy isn't just completely made-up, material composition stops mattering at that scale.

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

Where exactly did you address that?

"Anyways, this is essentially saying that hax affecting a higher-dimensional being is only itself higher-dimensional. rather than just wide-ranged, if the user is themselves higher-dimensional as the target."

 

[Bernkastelll]

except that is a completely irrelevant comparison. A bowling ball is made of materials that are very durable compared to the human body. Assuming this thing with Belldandy isn't just completely made-up, material composition stops mattering at that scale.

thats not a irrelevant comparison, its a size argument, what is the proof that bellondy body is made by something stronger than a space-time continuum or something? she is just big

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

thats not a irrelevant comparison, its a size argument, what is the proof that bellondy body is made by something stronger than a space-time continuum or something? she is just big

No, because space-time is not a material that has a specific strength in any sense. It's not a thing, it's where and when things happen.

 

[Bernkastelll]

No, because space-time is not a material that has a specific strength in any sense. It's not a thing, it's where and when things happen.

Sure whatever, what is the proof that her body is more durable than a universe if she is just bigger?

 

[Darksmash]

It seems you are just misinterpreting what the quote said. It was talking about someone affecting a being on a higher plane of existence, not "the user is themselves higher-dimensional as the target"