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Wait, so is this saying that potency of soul manip will now solely be based off of the number of individuals/souls affected and range?
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Hax vs Tier 2/1/0 (lower dimensional hax vs higher dimensional physiology)
- Thread starter DontTalkDT
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it already works like that to my knowleadge
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Dante wants to know your location
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Goated response
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- Thread starter
- #47
If you only affect random people than the potency is usually based on the number of people. That, and which level of soul attack resistance it would overcome. Affecting beings on a higher plane of existence (like a reality-fiction level) would also be a showing, I think.
Not in general. Smurf hax still exists, but the character that needs to be affected in order for something to be considered smurf hax must either have resistance to said hax on such a high level or be on a higher plane of existence.
Hence there will probably be less smurf hax, but not none at all.
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Would tanking hax that originates from a higher dimensional structure still count for potency.
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To make this more clear to everyone what's going to change, do you have any examples of profiles that will be affected by these clarifications to the rules?
Rikimarox2
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So like, how would this affect 1A and up?
(Another scenario baby~)
Assuming Character A has transcended an entire hierarchy of uncountable infinite dimension. Viewing the entire structure as fiction. Thus, making him 1A.
Character B transcended an infinite hierarchy where each layer sees the lower one as fiction, and becomes completely separated from it and sees it as fiction.
Would Character B be more impressive, and if they thought, will character A be able to affect B?
(Another scenario baby~)
Assuming Character A has transcended an entire hierarchy of uncountable infinite dimension. Viewing the entire structure as fiction. Thus, making him 1A.
Character B transcended an infinite hierarchy where each layer sees the lower one as fiction, and becomes completely separated from it and sees it as fiction.
Would Character B be more impressive, and if they thought, will character A be able to affect B?
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- #51
This is probably more so a change to how what is already on profiles is interpreted in vs-debates than to many profiles.
Aside from placing an explanation in the tiering system FAQ (meaning that it is a change to how we interpret a tiering related issue), it would also result in a corresponding addition to the Higher-Dimensional Existence page. That would consequently affect characters that have it, although the profiles themself would likely need no change for that reason.
I assume characters that can affect whole characters with Higher-Dimensional Existence probably already have the appropriate range/AoE listed. If not they would get that.
If any profile lists "Can harm Tier x characters via hax" that would be subject to revision. Although, in my experience, most smurfs of that kind don't really list it like that, but instead list "Can harm character C" or something, which would remain correct.
It's a change to how interactions of hax are evaluated in vs-debates and how the potency of certain feats of hax would be judged. Stats will not be affected. So with few exceptions, profiles would remain the same and I can spontaneously not point you to one that I know for sure would be changed.
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Well just to be clear, that leads to a absolutely massive increase in numerical potency.
Say for example there is only one human in the entire universe and you hax him across past, present and future, simultaneously affect all versions of that humans at the same time.
That would bump the numrical potency of hax to inginite or even maybe uncountablly infinite here, just off of single person alone. Results increasing if we increase base population.
Also shouldn't this be same as timeline destruction, I mean you could also interpret Low2C as solely 3A destruction with range in time axis, i.e Temporal AoE.
Whats the difference here?
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Why exactly is affecting a higher-d being only range? Like yeah that's probably a part of it in most situations but the range of hax has never meant anything compared to outright potency in most cases, so why does it magically mean everything now?
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So I can understand the stats part as that’s kind of a given, but the higher plane of existence I don’t follow. The whole “sees the verse as fiction” part, what about verses that blatantly affect those beings that don’t lower themselves to a lower level? Shouldn’t that still count for smurf potency since you have to affect that level of existence to affect the target to begin with? The third part I don’t understand what you’re coming from with the range part.
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Yeah, I agree with everything in the OP, thought we were already doing that. Though it should be noted that there are exceptions to each of them, as it's impossible to apply a standard like this in a vacuum across all of fiction.
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In stats yeah, since it's statistics reduction like tier 1 character getting statistics reduction by tier 8, and he become same like tier 8 character regardless the dimensionality
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What about for characters who have HDE, but don’t have large size?
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Isn't HDE is you just being higher dimensional than having large size
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I am aware of that, I just wanted to know if the HDE stuff in the OP are the same for characters who are higher-dimensional but normal sized. Because in the op, it seems to only clear up stuff for characters who are infinitely larger than lower dimensional characters
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Well I would say HDE stuff is the main point and much better than size because you existence is much higher than size
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I agree
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- Thread starter
- #63
Yes, as I said in the smurf part
So that would be considered smurf potency.
Do you mean there is an exception, as in specific hax for which it in general doesn't apply, or do you just mean specific verses that have exceptions, as fiction can be inconsistent?
And, are we? Maybe we are, maybe we aren’t. When I was talking about it with Ultima we weren’t sure, so we decided that a CRT would be the best case to go before we just write something unto the FAQ page.
I mean, I give that question right back. Why would mind controling a higher dimensional being fail, except due to it being outside of the mind controls range/AoE?
Generally both range and potency a requirement for something to work. But for which reason would affecting a (geometrically) higher-dimensional entity need more than baseline potency?
1-A are in principle not very different than other Tier 1 characters, and would essentially be handeled the same way.
As for your scenario... I don't see what that has to do with hax. That just seems like a tiering related question.
In mathematical terms all higher-dimensional characters are infinitely larger than lower dimensional ones.
Which doesn't mean that they are large in every dimension/direction, which is the aspect where the difference for tiering lies.
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As in fiction is inconsistent, yeah.
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... because the mind of a higher-dimensional being, in order to properly understand a higher-dimensional environment, would itself also have to be higher-dimensional. Your argument is that higher-dimensional beings are not functionally different from what we consider normal in any way other than simple size, which is not only wrong but a completely asspulled assumption that you cannot simply make and change a huge section of the wiki because of.
And if you want an explanation more related to how the wiki treats this, you do realize that hiveminds of a supernatural nature are usually given a degree of mind hax resistance, or actively demonstrate it, due to being far greater than a single mind that may comprise it. By this logic, said hiveminds wouldn't actually be any stronger, which is another baseless assumption and doesn't even make basic sense to any degree.
Oh, and I had absolutely no obligation to answer this question. You are the one proposing change, and it is on you to show why that change should be made, so by trying to shift that burden to others it just comes across like you're trying to brute force these changes. This is how the basic concept of the burden of proof works.
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Here is a cute gif to ease the tension before the inevitable shitstorm
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Hmm, agreeing with this type of interpretation means not only Hax, but AP now is only range.
The wiki always agreed Higher D are stronger than lower ones and by that Character AP/Hax required the potency to affect Higher D wish never required range and never caused problems on how things worked, of course Higher D manipulation allowed lower D to interact with Higher D.
We never required range, there is tons of profiles where the X character have Range lower than universal and still can interact with higher D, and the only thing needed as Higher D manipulation or Higher D AP.
This hole range also would upgrade all verses to Infinite and higher in range and speed by merely jumping from 3D range to Higher D.
I hope you realize the consequences of your proposals.
So yeah i disagree Hard with this.
And from what i knew, the wiki always considered characters with only higher D AP/Durability, to still be affected by Lower D hax
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Oh yeah, I've noticed that now as well.
This being accepted would result in tier 2 and above AP just being range, which is such a huge problem that I really, really hope I don't need to explain why it is.
This being accepted would result in tier 2 and above AP just being range, which is such a huge problem that I really, really hope I don't need to explain why it is.
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the fact that azatoth and goku exists in the same existance range but azatoth is bigger is hilarious
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what?
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basically my understanding is that dt is trying to say that if you are lower D and affect a higher D character with hax who is completely transcendent of reality it is just range, so basically what he is saying is that if someone uses social influencing on a character that is higher D than them it would just be range, so ergo low 2-C or higher range with talking
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The only way you can argue that mind/soul/whatever haxing a higher dimensional being is only range, is to assume that there is a set three dimensional size to those things in the first place, and that they just are purely increasing in size and thus becoming harder to reach, and experiencing no other changes at all when compared to a human.
This makes no sense, there's no size to a mind in the first place, unless we're talking about a biological one. The metaphysical kind, that most series tend to go with, doesn't have a set size, so it doesn't make sense to say the only difference between a 3d being's metaphysical mind and a 66d being's metaphysical mind is the size of it, and that, while their things are infinitely stronger when used on a lower dimensional creature, the lower dimensional creature is just having a bonus to range.
Let's assume that it entirely held up logically that the only difference in a higher dimensional being's mind, soul, etc, is size, and that it's not a potency thing at all, because they aren't any better at all somehow, ignoring the fact that a 5d being's mind would be able to process entire 4d space as if it were looking at a flat plane, which is significantly better than a 3d being's mind. Let's assume for a second that this was true and made sense, the amount of times that this is remotely treated as the case in any story is abysmally low. So if case by case exceptions, where it's treated as more than range in the series, are allowed, then this changes almost no verses besides potentially the ones that were inaccurately rated, which is fine. But if they aren't, and this is applied as some absolute standard regardless of context in the series, this is one of the worst proposals made.
There's also issues with the way this would apply in regards to AP as stated by others.
This makes no sense, there's no size to a mind in the first place, unless we're talking about a biological one. The metaphysical kind, that most series tend to go with, doesn't have a set size, so it doesn't make sense to say the only difference between a 3d being's metaphysical mind and a 66d being's metaphysical mind is the size of it, and that, while their things are infinitely stronger when used on a lower dimensional creature, the lower dimensional creature is just having a bonus to range.
Let's assume that it entirely held up logically that the only difference in a higher dimensional being's mind, soul, etc, is size, and that it's not a potency thing at all, because they aren't any better at all somehow, ignoring the fact that a 5d being's mind would be able to process entire 4d space as if it were looking at a flat plane, which is significantly better than a 3d being's mind. Let's assume for a second that this was true and made sense, the amount of times that this is remotely treated as the case in any story is abysmally low. So if case by case exceptions, where it's treated as more than range in the series, are allowed, then this changes almost no verses besides potentially the ones that were inaccurately rated, which is fine. But if they aren't, and this is applied as some absolute standard regardless of context in the series, this is one of the worst proposals made.
There's also issues with the way this would apply in regards to AP as stated by others.
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Most of the disagreements on this front seem to come from some things in the OP being lost in translation, it seems. For the record, when DontTalk says that affecting a higher-dimensional entity with hax isn't necessarily indicative of said hax being infinitely more potent, he is talking about generic higher-dimensional entities which we don't instantly slap high tiers on. So, for instance, in this post, he isn't using "6-D" as a synonym for "Low 1-C," because just being 6-dimensional isn't automatically Low 1-C to begin with anymore, as is already outlined in the Tiering System FAQ page. Hence why the OP also separates cases where a character is solely defined as higher-dimensional in a geometric sense and cases where only higher planes of existence and the like are involved.
As for whether or not affecting, say, the mind of a higher-dimensional entity warrants us to say that a character's Mindhax is infinitely greater in potency, I... actually think this is something that's pretty much impossible to create a consistent standard for, both for and against it. Largely because the concept of a "mind" is extremely ill-defined, when we take it to refer to some non-physical construct as most verses do.
If the mind in the context of a specific verse is something fully metaphysical that doesn't reside in any point of space and/or time, then we could say that characters who can manipulate that would be able to affect higher-dimensional entities with no issue, but that obviously wouldn't necessarily be the case in every verse, same with cases where the mind actually is influenced by dimensionality. So, establishing a solid basis through which we can judge all of fiction in this regard is pretty much a fruitless endeavor, in my opinion.
When it comes to physical hax, though, things might differ a bit: Even though we might not consider higher-dimensional entities to automatically have infinitely greater AP, they still do encompass an infinitely larger volume of space than lower-dimensional beings. So, how would treat, say, manipulating a higher-dimensional entity's body on an atomic level, and similar cases? @DontTalkDT
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i think in the last part is just manipulating matter in a HD scale becuase matter still can exist in HD
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And how generic Higher D are affected ? The AP doenst matter when The ''composition'' of those characters are Higher D, their ''composition'' is no diferent from non generic Higher D. How they are diferent again ?
Fiction never cared about dimensional range, look at the amount of characters that have less than Universal range and are higher D on AP or Hax, THIS should be enough to show how fiction isn't taking range between dimensions into play and everything works fine without it.
Adding range would only give trouble into scalling, not helping on any shape.
And why we are dictating standards >>> The verse own logic.
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So affecting higher D is depending AP and range or what
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Pretty sure AP but that may change
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