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Hax vs Tier 2/1/0 (lower dimensional hax vs higher dimensional physiology)

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a yea, an hax that affect a being that is larger than a universe doesnt means that the hax can affect a being that has reality-fiction interaction to him, thus it cannot be smurf hax, i guess i can understand what the op is saying
 
Honestly, with how many people having seemingly different intepretations of the OP, i start to feel like i got it wrong. So i will tune out until DT clarifies it. My understanding of the OP is:

Higher Layer of infinite: Yes smurf.
Just a higher spatial Dimension: No smurf.
Affecting Moleculare Man type of character: Not smurf.
 
Hl3_or_bust said:
except that is a completely irrelevant comparison. A bowling ball is made of materials that are very durable compared to the human body. Assuming this thing with Belldandy isn't just completely made-up, material composition stops mattering at that scale.
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You can write me if you want to get that clarified, i am currently the defacto Ah! My Goddess guy (Sadly)
 
on the topic of Belldandy. I have been informed that the page is for the form she uses to interact with people rather than her real form that has the aforementioned size. So yes, Witch, that was insanely misleading. Thanks for wasting my time.

@Darksmash

I could've sworn that included that. I know Don't said it at some point, so I'll go looking.
 
Hl3_or_bust said:
on the topic of Belldandy. I have been informed that the page is for the form she uses to interact with people rather than her real form that has the aforementioned size. So yes, Witch, that was insanely misleading. Thanks for wasting my time.
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By whom tho. Because that is in fact not how we treat Belldandy currently
 
I know exactly 0 about that verse to be entirely fair, and I was shown it over discord. And I would to hear your logic for that, because it sounds like it is exactly the avatar kind of way.
 
I will keep it short. Her explanation goes against literally everything that actually happens in the series. Belldandy traverses from Heaven, the higher dimensional realm of Gods to earth through a portal. She moves her entire existance down to earth and not avatars. When Goddeses move up back to heaven, they move their "Avatars" up there too. Keiichi, a normal 3 dimensional human, visited Hell once. He moved through the same portal as his Goddesses companions and saw gods and demons (Gods counterparts) as their exact avatars. Point is, they are a single existance and not a avatar send down from a higher dimension. Their "Avatars" are just the 3D section visible and molded into a form for interactions.

Regardless of that, i reiterate again. Belldandy is higher dimensional, but only in the spatial, size kind. The series pointed out multiple times that destroying Earth was a huge feat for Gods. A villain in the series, that was treatet as a threat to Heaven could not destroy the universe by punching it. He had to attack the universal superstring for that and coudnt even do that physically either. He needed a 10th dimensional scythe for that.
 
I see.

That just sounds like the series contradicting itself much more than them being a very specific kind of higher-dimensional that doesn't fit our specific standards.
 
First_Witch said:
I will keep it short. Her explanation goes against literally everything that actually happens in the series. Belldandy traverses from Heaven, the higher dimensional realm of Gods to earth through a portal. She moves her entire existance down to earth and not avatars. When Goddeses move up back to heaven, they move their "Avatars" up there too. Keiichi, a normal 3 dimensional human, visited Hell once. He moved through the same portal as his Goddesses companions and saw gods and demons (Gods counterparts) as their exact avatars. Point is, they are a single existance and not a avatar send down from a higher dimension. Their "Avatars" are just the 3D section visible and molded into a form for interactions.

Regardless of that, i reiterate again. Belldandy is higher dimensional, but only in the spatial, size kind. The series pointed out multiple times that destroying Earth was a huge feat for Gods. A villain in the series, that was treatet as a threat to Heaven could not destroy the universe by punching it. He had to attack the universal superstring for that and coudnt even do that physically either. He needed a 10th dimensional scythe for that.
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That looks more like a lot of universe feats and alot of anti feats at the same time
 
Okay the gods are big as the universe and it need a item to destroy it? also it destroying the earth is a huge feat of the gods will being as the same size of the universe?

that definetly look more like the series dont take dimensions as a way of power or range and alot of outliers
 
Also question. A character is HD but only in spatial dimensions and B Character affects A like actually doing big damage to A character. if B character got 10D range by doing that then A character gets 10D but only range but not AP by literally the exact feat?
 
Hl3_or_bust said:
I see.

That just sounds like the series contradicting itself much more than them being a very specific kind of higher-dimensional that doesn't fit our specific standards.
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Thats the thing, haxing Belldandy woudnt be a smurf feat, even though she is higher dimensional. Those kinds of higher dimensions woudnt qualify for smurf hax, because they woudnt qualify for a tiering too. The series undoubtly treats them as spatial dimensions, but those dimensions are not indicative of infinitly more power. This is what, at least this is what i got from DT's OP and i imagine many others have too, i interpreted from the OP.
 
First_Witch said:
Thats the thing, haxing Belldandy woudnt be a smurf feat, even though she is higher dimensional. Those kinds of higher dimensions woudnt qualify for smurf hax, because they woudnt qualify for a tiering too. The series undoubtly treats them as spatial dimensions, but those dimensions are not indicative of infinitly more power. This is what, at least this is what i got from DT's OP and i imagine many others have too, i interpreted from the OP.
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Just because a series that his Spatial dimension works in a way doesnt mean all series spatial dimensions work at the same way
 
Livinmeme said:
Okay the gods are big as the universe and it need a item to destroy it? also it destroying the earth is a huge feat of the gods will being as the same size of the universe?

that definetly look more like the series dont take dimensions as a way of power or range and alot of outliers
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Exactly, those dimensions are higher but they are not compareable to a reality fiction layer. Belldandy is still higher dimensional, it just dosnt give a her infinitly more power.
 
First_Witch said:
Exactly, those dimensions are higher but they are not compareable to a reality fiction layer. Belldandy is still higher dimensional, it just dosnt give a her infinitly more power.
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Because the series has alot of anti feats and the spatial dimensions dont have AP? the spatial dimensions dont work in the same way that most series or even the standards of the wiki works just because it appears it works doesnt mean it works specially when characters that are big as the universe cant destroy a universe and destroying a planet is a big feat for them

Also you neither specify if the spatial dimensions in the series Give range if they dont well...
 
Livinmeme said:
Just because a series that his Spatial dimension works in a way doesnt mean all series spatial dimensions work at the same way
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And no one claims that. Its on you to proof that those dimensions are anything useable for tiering, but this is nothing new, this is how the wiki treats dimensions in general. This is what i said to Bernkastelll too, its irellevant how you call it, its important how it is described. It being spatial, a higher layer, a bigger universe etc, dosnt matter, what matters is what is described. This is why is stress my definition so much when i talk about this stuff. A Higher Spatial dimension is just that, a higher spatial plane. You dont assume it to be a infinitly higher layer until you bring feats and explanations for it. It being a higher spatial plane dosnt mean that it cant be a infinitly higher layer, just that you cant claim it as such without proof.
 
First_Witch said:
And no one claims that. Its on you to proof that those dimensions are anything useable for tiering, but this is nothing new, this is how the wiki treats dimensions in general. This is what i said to Bernkastelll too, its irellevant how you call it, its important how it is described. It being spatial, a higher layer, a bigger universe etc, dosnt matter, what matters is what is described. This is why is stress my definition so much when i talk about this stuff. A Higher Spatial dimension is just that, a higher spatial plane. You dont assume it to be a infinitly higher layer until you bring feats and explanations for it. It being a higher spatial plane dosnt mean that it cant be a infinitly higher layer, just that you cant claim it as such without proof.
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...what okay hear me out i think you missunderstand me but i was saying that using a series who spatial dimensions are so weird isnt a good argument and yes i alredy know that i am infact disagree that spatial dimensions get range if they dont qualifie that is like playing mid point. the spatial dimensions cant be used as a AP feat anymore but range for reasons?
 
Hl3_or_bust said:
Seeing as Don't seems to have jumped ship, I guess I'll reiterate my problems with this entire idea that he seems to find himself unable to argue against.

Essentially, his entire argument is that there is no real difference between a normal human and a higher-dimensional being other than sheer size. This just sounds stupid, and that it is, as it's not only self-contradictory but also just profoundly wrong if you think for any length of time whatsoever. How exactly are they the same if the higher-dimensional being is actually capable of meaningfully responding to it's higher-dimensional environment? How exactly are they the same when the OP literally admits that there is at least one utterly massive difference, that only doesn't matter here because Don't says it does? The list goes on: it simply makes 0 sense.

And then we get to this:
"
Generally speaking, a lower-dimensional character that manages to harm a higher dimensional one, would only get an upgrade to the AoE/range of their hax to be higher-dimensional. It can't generally be considered to be more powerful than all or most lower-dimensional versions anymore. At least by default. It's another matter if the feat generally qualifies for a higher tier by the size of the effect, such as using EE on a character the size of a higher-dimensional universe.
Those that only affected characters with higher tier stats, but without a reason to assume resistance, would not be considered smurf at all.
Only those that affected a being on a higher plane of existence, like in the reality-fiction example, can by default be considered to have hax on a full Tier 2/1/0 level that is more powerful than regular lower plane hax. And that only if it's not one of the exceptions mentioned regarding their resistances.
"

This is at the bottom of the OP for any who want confirmation that I'm not making this shit up, because I lack that creativity myself. Anyways, this is essentially saying that hax affecting a higher-dimensional being is only itself higher-dimensional. rather than just wide-ranged, if the user is themselves higher-dimensional as the target. This is, of course, a completely arbitrary statement with literally negative reasons to be the case. Remember the statement above, about the lack of differences here? Well, Don't has managed to completely destroy his own argument by at one point saying that there is no difference but at another saying that there is some innate, undefined and unstated difference that completely changes the nature of a power. So either there actually is no difference, and thus this entire venture has been completely ******* pointless, or there is a difference but what exactly it is, why it exists, and why exactly it results in this to begin with are all entirely unexplained and pulled from Don'ts ass.

And before I get anything about trying to reduce this to being on a case-by-case basis, especially from Don't himself: if you're willing to create a compromise that so utterly negates the entire point of making this thread by leaving it in the hands of people you are indirectly making out to be stupid, why the hell did you make it in the first place?
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You should always try to be polite in this community, especially to people like DontTalk, who have helped out to an extreme degree over the years.

Anyway:

@DontTalkDT @Ultima_Reality

What do you think about the above arguments?
 
Hl3_or_bust said:
Anyways, this is essentially saying that hax affecting a higher-dimensional being is only itself higher-dimensional. rather than just wide-ranged, if the user is themselves higher-dimensional as the target
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If this was being proposed, then, like I implied in our conversations about this off-site, I'd certainly be vehemently disagreeing with it, yeah, but I don't really see where you are getting this from, at all. At least from the paragraph you quoted there. Closest thing I've seen that hints at what you are saying is this tidbit:

Only those that affected a being on a higher plane of existence, like in the reality-fiction example, can by default be considered to have hax on a full Tier 2/1/0 level that is more powerful than regular lower plane hax. And that only if it's not one of the exceptions mentioned regarding their resistances.
Click to expand...

Which is still talking about lower beings using hax to affect an entity that exists on a higher plane of existence (Or something similar to that), and thus qualifies for Tier 2 and up by virtue of the nature of their existence, as opposed to only having AP on that scale.

Now, to make something very clear here, since it seems to be what's causing all of this confusion: When a character is stated to be a 4-dimensional entity, and we rate them at Unknown instead of Low 2-C, we are not considering them to be a "fake" higher-dimensional being, or just a glorified 3-dimensional entity, or really, anything of the sort. A 4-dimensional being can be as genuinely higher-dimensional as it gets, but if they don't have anything demonstrating an infinite superiority in power in relation to lower-dimensional entities, they won't get a high tier slapped on them, for reasons I already wrote about on this page.

So, like I said a few times before: This thread doesn't actually affect anything significant when it comes to characters that actually qualify for Tier 1 (Provided they aren't 3-dimensional beings with Tier 2/1/0 Attack Potency, as said above). A good chunk of smurf characters will remain the same after this, as far as I am aware, and the only ones who will be affected are, again, higher-dimensional beings that have no evidence of being able to exert an infinitely greater amount of power than a lower-dimensional being, and are thus given no tier based on dimensionality alone.

So, if you see a universe as fiction, you will still be assumed to be immune to any abilities coming from beings inhabiting said universe. But if one of those beings actually manages to affect you somehow, then they will be considered to have high-tier hax.
 
Ultima_Reality said:
If this was being proposed, then, like I implied in our conversations about this off-site, I'd certainly be vehemently disagreeing with it, yeah, but I don't really see where you are getting this from, at all. At least from the paragraph you quoted there. Closest thing I've seen that hints at what you are saying is this tidbit:



Which is still talking about lower beings using hax to affect an entity that exists on a higher plane of existence (Or something similar to that), and thus qualifies for Tier 2 and up by virtue of the nature of their existence, as opposed to only having AP on that scale.

Now, to make something very clear here, since it seems to be what's causing all of this confusion: When a character is stated to be a 4-dimensional entity, and we rate them at Unknown instead of Low 2-C, we are not considering them to be a "fake" higher-dimensional being, or just a glorified 3-dimensional entity, or really, anything of the sort. A 4-dimensional being can be as genuinely higher-dimensional as it gets, but if they don't have anything demonstrating an infinite superiority in power in relation to lower-dimensional entities, they won't get a high tier slapped on them, for reasons I already wrote about on this page.

So, like I said a few times before: This thread doesn't actually affect anything significant when it comes to characters that actually qualify for Tier 1 (Provided they aren't 3-dimensional beings with Tier 2/1/0 Attack Potency, as said above). A good chunk of smurf characters will remain the same after this, as far as I am aware, and the only ones who will be affected are, again, higher-dimensional beings that have no evidence of being able to exert an infinitely greater amount of power than a lower-dimensional being, and are thus given no tier based on dimensionality alone.

So, if you see a universe as fiction, you will still be assumed to be immune to any abilities coming from beings inhabiting said universe. But if one of those beings actually manages to affect you somehow, then they will be considered to have high-tier hax.
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Oh thank god, i was right the whole time. Yeah, i really think the only reason people disagree with the thread is because they plain didnt understand what it actually meant. Its basically the tiering system revision, hax edition.
 
First_Witch said:
Oh thank god, i was right the whole time. Yeah, i really think the only reason people disagree with the thread is because they plain didnt understand what it actually meant. Its basically the tiering system revision, hax edition.
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well you didnt explain well and for the first page people tougth you wanted to get HD hax as range
 
Livinmeme said:
well you didnt explain well and for the first page people tougth you wanted to get HD hax as range
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... You do know im not the OP of this thread right? All i have done was explaining my agreement with the thread, its not my fault that you misunderstood what this thread was for. And what do you mean with the last bit? Thats exactly what is happening, Higher Dimensional Hax is only range if its not a higher infinity
 
First_Witch said:
... You do know im not the OP of this thread right? All i have done was explaining my agreement with the thread, its not my fault that you misunderstood what this thread was for. And what do you mean with the last bit? Thats exactly what is happening, Higher Dimensional Hax is only range if its not a higher infinity
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Oh you werent op... oof
 
So if i did understand right.

Hax from higher D beings isn't by default higher D unless feats ?

I fine with, if affecting the dimensional existance of those higher D beings with hax still qualifies for higher d hax.
 
EFÍTÉ said:
So if i did understand right.

Hax from higher D beings isn't by default higher D unless feats ?

I fine with, if affecting the dimensional existance of those higher D beings with hax still qualifies for higher d hax.
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I don't think so. Hax from Higher-D beings should still be Higher-D by definition.

If I reference it from the points DT's and my posts agreed on, then basically Higher-D beings still have their Higher-D hax (otherwise they wouldn't be in that tier in the first place), Smurfs will still be smurfs.

However, a smurf who "only" haxed a Geometrical higher-D being - such as a thinking universe for example - and has no feats of doing the same to a Reality/Fiction type higher being, would not be able to use his Smurf abilities against the Geomtrical type as he has no feats of said "range", something about Reality/Fiction being in a separate plane while Geometrical types are basically "dummy thicc".

The opposite however should hold true I think, a smurf who has feats against a Reality-Fiction type should be able to use them against a geomtrical type with no issue. It is a matter of range, basically.

Hope that was helpful.
 
Can i get a quick and brief summary of whats going on/ happening with this thread please..? I been away due to irl stuff for a while so i haven't been able to get caught up with this thread...
 
Last edited:
Well, I think that DontTalk's and Ultima's suggestions have been accepted, but I do not remember so well.
 
Can somebody write a reminder summary of what we need to decide here please?
 
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