Gotta Revise 'Em All, Part 1: Splitting the Pokemon Canons (Massive Pokemon CRT)

[StrymULTRA]

It won't change anything at all unfortunately.

So what, you want us to assume it's level 30. Because why??

Still better than assuming that is a "LV 100 perfect Pokémon with all EVs and all the possible training despite being wild".

We just use the feats they've showcase as wild Pokémon/Dex entries. Simple as that.

 

[Arceus0x]

What about we just get rid of this dumb "LV 100 perfect Pokémon" thing hm? Is essentially a composite and this wiki is against that. My whole point is to make the wild Pokémon pages simply the average, with feats got without the help of any trainer. The fact it was trained from Lance still means is above the regular Dragonair, and we can't use it for the average one. I already told the reason why this "LV 100 perfect Pokémon" for profiles must be removed.

It wasn't trained by Lance bro, this is at best a theory made by some fans which held 0 evidence no matter how much i re-read the chapters. As far as canon goes there is no evidence for it to have been trained by Lance AT THE POINT OF THE FEAT. It was trained later, but it did no such feats later.

Also lvl 100 exists because the wiki has the characters at a perfect physical state in each fight to make it fair. You wouldn't make a profile for a shounen character who is bleeding out like Jotaro after he had holes put into him by Kira now would you?
I don't mind removing perfect IV and EV since that is physically impossible but there are wild pokemon who legitimately reach lvl 100 by themselves. What is the "average" anyways? Lvl 50? Lvl 1? If we make every pokemon lvl 1 it ain't gonna be physically possible nor will we have any feats for those pokemon since all pokemon who perform feats have existed for more than a second.
I disagree with the removal.

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

Isn't Adventures Mewtwo also trained?

 

[Agnaa]

unless you wanna act like XXKing and say that every pokemon with like a single interaction with a trainer is suddenly 19372928482832x stronger than a wild mon despite the fact that trained mons often fight wild pokemon on comparable terms.

We know that trained Pokemon can get far stronger.

We don't know how much training this takes.

Therefore, to play it safe, we should just use feats that random wild members of the species give. That seems pretty reasonable to me.

What is the "average" anyways? Lvl 50? Lvl 1? If we make every pokemon lvl 1 it ain't gonna be physically possible nor will we have any feats for those pokemon since all pokemon who perform feats have existed for more than a second.

We could put them at the peak/average level they're actually encountered in the wild in mainline games.

 

[StrymULTRA]

As far as canon goes there is no evidence for it to have been trained by Lance AT THE POINT OF THE FEAT. It was trained later, but it did no such feats later.

The very fact it was trained means is inapplicable to regular Dragonairs. You're the one to prove that is still applicable to normal ones.

Also lvl 100 exists because the wiki has the characters at a perfect physical state in each fight to make it fair. You wouldn't make a profile for a shounen character who is bleeding out like Jotaro after he had holes put into him by Kira now would you?

False equivalence. Being Maxxed out doesn't mean is full health.

I don't mind removing perfect IV and EV since that is physically impossible but there are wild pokemon who legitimately reach lvl 100 by themselves. What is the "average" anyways? Lvl 50? Lvl 1? If we make every pokemon lvl 1 it ain't gonna be physically possible nor will we have any feats for those pokemon since all pokemon who perform feats have existed for more than a second.

Forget about levels as no one cares about those. You don't say that a LV 100 Pidgey beats a LV 40 Groudon in-lore coz "lol LV". You just take the best feats they've showcased in the wild without any training like we do with our irl animals profile and done.

 

[Arceus0x]

The very fact it was trained means is inapplicable to regular Dragonairs. You're the one to prove that is still applicable to normal ones.

I have already proven that it is below a max level dragonair and just being trained to an unknown extent and very likely for surfing means nothing when it comes to power.

False equivalence. Being Maxxed out doesn't mean is full health.

Ok. How about this. If we take a random level then they won't have some of their abilities. If we have lvl 100 then this will mean that the pokemon are at their peak potential in the wild (which exists, even a magikarp can reach lvl 100 in the wild in platinum) and have learned every move theh physically can.

Forget about levels as no one cares about those. You don't say that a LV 100 Pidgey beats a LV 40 Groudon in-lore coz "lol LV". You just take the best feats they've showcased in the wild without any training like we do with our irl animals profile and done.

In the manga levels matter and just disregarding levels as a whole is foolish in pokemon.

 

[StrymULTRA]

I have already proven that it is below a max level dragonair and just being trained to an unknown extent and very likely for surfing means nothing when it comes to power.

Too bad in this wiki we play safe and not sorry. The fact is trained simply means that is much likely still stronger than your regular one, given that with training the Mons get enormous boosts.

Ok. How about this. If we take a random level then they won't have some of their abilities. If we have lvl 100 then this will mean that the pokemon are at their peak potential in the wild (which exists, even a magikarp can reach lvl 100 in the wild in platinum) and have learned every move theh physically can.
In the manga levels matter and just disregarding levels as a whole is foolish in pokemon.

So I guess said Magikarp would easily defeat any gym leader, Giratina or even Cynthia coz "LV 100."

Sure ok.

 

[Arceus0x]

So I guess said Magikarp would easily defeat any gym leader, Giratina or even Cynthia coz "LV 100."

Sure ok.

Lvl 100 is simply to state that they reached their potential peak. That is all. No need for power scaling. It's literally just a statment that this exact pokemon has learned every move and reached it's peak which means it can fight other characters at their peak in a fair battle.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Lvl 100 is simply to state that they reached their potential peak. That is all. No need for power scaling. It's literally just a statment that this exact pokemon has learned every move and reached it's peak which means it can fight other characters at their peak in a fair battle.

This whole argument is fallacious as levels are irrelevant in power scaling.

I'll repeat this again. Feats done from trained Pokémon like Ash's Lycanrock or Team Rocket's Piloswine should completely be removed from normal Pokémon profiles as those were trained. If there's evidence of said Pokémon being able to perform said feat without any human training then ok. But in Dragonair's case there's 0 proof of it being able to do that without any training, so the burden is on you.

 

[Sniper670]

This whole argument is fallacious as levels are irrelevant in power scaling.

I'll repeat this again. Feats done from trained Pokémon like Ash's Lycanrock or Team Rocket's Piloswine should completely be removed from normal Pokémon profiles as those were trained.

Where do we get the idea trained Pokémon are more special than wild mons?

If there's evidence of said Pokémon being able to perform said feat without any human training then ok. But in Dragonair's case there's 0 proof of it being able to do that without any training, so the burden is on you.

I want to see scans that says trained mons are so strong that our current calcs does not apply to wild mons

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Isn't Adventures Mewtwo also trained?

No. Adventures Mewtwo and Blaines only worked at Mewtwo getting to control his powers. Mewtwo in the manga isn't above the normal capabilities of another one like it fought some super powerful opponents to become that strong.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Where do we get the idea trained Pokémon are more special than wild mons?

You believe that Steven's Metagross is strong as a random one?

I want to see scans that says trained mons are so strong that our current calcs does not apply to wild mons

Cordress saying that training brings out all the potential of the mons. Them being able to compete with legendaries in the plot in the games. Are these enough?

 

[StrymULTRA]

I also forgot to say that in manga the badges power up the Pokémon of the trainer. This should be noted.

 

[Sniper670]

You believe that Steven's Metagross is strong as a random one?

I do. You fail to prove why not.

There's nothing that says a wild mon can't do the exact same thing as trained mon

Cordress saying that training brings out all the potential of the mons. Them being able to compete with legendaries in the plot in the games. Are these enough?

Imagine my disappointment when I found out this is the justification for why trained mons feats does not scale to wild mons

 

[Sniper670]

I also forgot to say that in manga the badges power up the Pokémon of the trainer. This should be noted.

It's meaningless here. It doesn't even exist in the anime iirc

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

But what also needs to be remembered here is that trainers are not always training Pokemon in the fashion that it makes them stronger than their wild counterparts.

For example, my point about Dawn's piplup. Trainers like Dawn, May, Serena, you know Pokemon Coordinators, are not battlers. Unlike trainers like Ash who consistently battle strong trainers and pokemon like gym leaders, the only thing Coordinators train their pokemon to do is make fancy use of their moves for performances. They dont need their pokemon to become stronger in order for them to be used for things like that.

So there needs to be some context put into how a Pokemon is exactly trained before we decide if it's above their wild variants or not.

 

[Sniper670]

Thank you.

People out here are putting too much weight behind "Trainers"

 

[Pikaman]

I do. You fail to prove why not.

There's nothing that says a wild mon can't do the exact same thing as trained mon

Better strategy from their trainers, specific training targeted at certain abilities, facing a variety of foes they would never even come within miles of meeting in the wild. Even in the games specific EV and IV training can be done iirc

Shocker, training a Pokémon to be strong means that they can surpass any random Pokémon of the same species picked from the wild with no such training

 

[StrymULTRA]

I do. You fail to prove why not.

Keep believing that as is blatantly false. You're telling me that training is meaningless as no matter the training a wild Pokémon will always be as strong as the one you have lol. Especially when important trainers were supposed to scale from Legends but that thread is dead af lol.

There's nothing that says a wild mon can't do the exact same thing as trained mon

"A wild Lucario is strong as this Lucario because nothing proves that it would be weaker". Ok.

Imagine my disappointment when I found out this is the justification for why trained mons feats does not scale to wild mons

Am I wrong? Because, again, this is compositing.

It's meaningless here. It doesn't even exist in the anime iirc

Prove those are different lmao.

For example, my point about Dawn's piplup. Trainers like Dawn, May, Serena, you know Pokemon Coordinators, are not battlers. Unlike trainers like Ash who consistently battle strong trainers and pokemon like gym leaders, the only thing Coordinators train their pokemon to do is make fancy use of their moves for performances. They dont need their pokemon to become stronger in order for them to used for things like that.

You know that scaling that Piplup to 1st stages is arbitrary af and has 0 basis.

Better strategy from their trainers, specific training targeted at certain abilities, facing a variety of foes they would never even come within miles of meeting in the wild. Even in the games specific EV and IV training can be done iirc

Shocker, training a Pokémon to be strong means that they can surpass any random Pokémon of the same species picked from the wild with no such training

This. So much this.

 

[Arceus0x]

But what also needs to be remembered here is that trainers are not always training Pokemon in the fashion that it makes them stronger than their wild counterparts.

For example, my point about Dawn's piplup. Trainers like Dawn, May, Serena, you know Pokemon Coordinators, are not battlers. Unlike trainers like Ash who consistently battle strong trainers and pokemon like gym leaders, the only thing Coordinators train their pokemon to do is make fancy use of their moves for performances. They dont need their pokemon to become stronger in order for them to be used for things like that.

So there needs to be some context put into how a Pokemon is exactly trained before we decide if it's above their wild variants or not.

Same thing with Dragonair, there is a higher chance that with the given context it was trained specifically for surfing as it was a advertised as a surfing buddy and the prize of a surfing competition

 

[Sniper670]

Better strategy from their trainers, specific training targeted at certain abilities, facing a variety of foes they would never even come within miles of meeting in the wild. Even in the games specific EV and IV training can be done iirc

Again, can you, with actual proof that the calcs will not apply to them?

What you mentioned is still meaningless as Wild mons can level up with or without trainers

Shocker, training a Pokémon to be strong means that they can surpass any random Pokémon of the same species picked from the wild with no such training

Says you?

I mean, where is your proof

 

[StrymULTRA]

Y'all are essentially saying that Champion Pokémon, trained from the elite of the trainers, are still merely as strong as a random one you find in the wild.

Can you imagine how ridiculous this claim is?

 

[Agnaa]

Is it relevant that, in some of the games, you train your Pokemon's EVs by doing stuff like having them shoot soccer balls? It seems a bit strange to expect that other types of physical training would have no effect on them.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

You know that scaling that Piplup to 1st stages is arbitrary af and has 0 basis.

Wasn't Piplup's feat scaled to second stages?

 

[StrymULTRA]

Wasn't Piplup's feat scaled to second stages?

I use TCG terms.

 

[Sniper670]

Keep believing that as is blatantly false. You're telling me that training is meaningless as no matter the training a wild Pokémon will always be as strong as the one you have lol.

Yes. The games are blatant with this.

It's only meaningful when levelled up. And wild mons also do

In fact it's perfectly reasonable to assume all mons are at optimum condition aka level 100.

If you don't think so, bring up a better alternative

"A wild Lucario is strong as this Lucario because nothing proves that it would be weaker". Ok.

This is a special case and you know it

Am I wrong? Because, again, this is compositing.

It's a species page. Theres no better way to go about it.

You're free to give your suggestions

Prove those are different lmao.

I fail to see why the current calcs don't apply, and again, putting so much weight on badges giving mons a unquantifiable boost in power

 

[Arceus0x]

I use TCG terms.

-

 

[Sniper670]

Y'all are essentially saying that Champion Pokémon, trained from the elite of the trainers, are still merely as strong as a random one you find in the wild.

Can you imagine how ridiculous this claim is?

It sounds ridiculous...... But can you disprove it?

No

 

[StrymULTRA]

Not to mentions that Trainers do in fact scale to Legendaries, is even a thing in the plot, but this logic of "Trained Mons aren't that special compared to Wild ones" literally prevents any scaling to them. Is literally discarding any possible scaling and legit power boost (like Giovanni being able to defeat Cyrus's Creation Trio with his Mega Mewtwo, but on this wiki Cyrus is literally infinitely stronger anyways lmao), or even having stuff like "High 7-A with normal Pokémon, X tier with Legendary" when said Legend was got through fighting lol.

 

[StrymULTRA]

It sounds ridiculous...... But can you disprove it?

Common sense is enough. Like, you're saying that training is meaningless as a Wild Pokémon will always be the same strenght no matter the training your mon gets lol.

 

[Sniper670]

Not to mentions that Trainers do in fact scale to Legendaries, is even a thing in the plot, but this logic of "Trained Mons aren't that special compared to Wild ones" literally prevents any scaling to them. Is literally discarding any possible scaling and legit power boost (like Giovanni being able to defeat Cyrus's Creation Trio with his Mega Mewtwo, but on this wiki Cyrus is literally infinitely stronger anyways lmao), or even having stuff like "High 7-A with normal Pokémon, X tier with Legendary" when said Legend was got through fighting lol.

A level 100 with perfect evs and ivs sounds fine.


You disagree. Fine. Bring your suggestions

 

[Pikaman]

Oh also back to original reason this CRT was made, this reminded me that Pokémon evolving outside of/not as a result of battle is a common trope in anime (idk about Manga) that stuff doesn’t happen in the games afaik

 

[Arceus0x]

I'mma just say that the reason why not all trained pokemon scale to all wild ones is because it's stated, specifically in the anime, that the bonds between trainer and pokemon can bring out the potential in them and boost it manifold. Problem is training =\= bonds. Some moves that rely on trainer relationships with their pokemon depend on how bad a relationship is. So while a good guy champion with his pokemon would be >>> a normal metagross, a dragonair who was trained for what seems to be surfing and then put up as a prize for a competition probably had no relationship in the first place since it was basically commercial anyways.

 

[Sniper670]

The argument here is that Trained mons are special creatures and their feats cannot be achieved in any way by a wild mon.....


Which is false, even going with Pokedex entries alone

 

[Pikaman]

For the LV 100 Pokémon stuff, I’m not opposed to that kinda stuff, but anything that needs a trainer is a no go (e.g. ditch egg moves)

 

[StrymULTRA]

A level 100 with perfect evs and ivs sounds fine.

Unless you think Leon's Charizard can still be one-shotted from a wild Golem, or be overpowered from a bunch of random wild Charizards... no.

You disagree. Fine. Bring your suggestions

Simply give to Wild Pokémon the feats they showcase just in the wild for the general profiles, and for the trainers all the feats/scaling from higher stuff (like Legendaries). So you avoid things like Cyrus > Giovanni despite the latter is stronger in USUM.

The scaling from Legendaries is my main argument to why trained mons are massively above regular ones, given they can reach their levels with training while a wild mon will never be able to do it. But this wiki invented this weird concept, so for some reason a random Lugia can solo a whole Pokémon League according to this place.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Do I have to remember that according to this wiki Brandon would completely fodderize Steven because the former has the Regi Trio, despite the latter is still the Champion?

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

I use TCG terms.

Ah okay. Well just to clarify, I definitely agree with you on the general premise of trained pokemon being > wild ones and thinking otherwise is pretty ridiculous.

I just meant that "training" should be taken into context as to what was done so it's a proof of a power progression and not something that doesn't require the pokemon to become stronger (like Pokemon Coordinators).

 

[StrymULTRA]

Y'all should stop antagonizing me as well. I am proposing a solution to why cross-scaling is fine, from yeeting the composites this wiki doesn't allow, and the way you're proposing rn against me is in favor of composites which aren't allowed, and would just lead to the split being accepted.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Anyways, yeah. Im completely agreeing with Strym on this matter of trained pokemon being above that of wild pokemon (if power progression is done ofc). This idea that a pokemon doesn't get any stronger from training and that wild mons equal trained ones is just ridiculous.