Gotta Revise 'Em All, Part 1: Splitting the Pokemon Canons (Massive Pokemon CRT)

[Sniper670]

This wouldn't affect the Creation Trio and Arceus, right?
Since they created the multiverse?

They need a varies tier

 

[Antvasima]

@Saikou_The_Lewd_King @Kirbyelmejor @The_2nd_Existential_Seed @Niarobi_(Formerly_Hadou) @Starter_Pack @Bobsican @GyroNutz @Nemo212 @Sans2345 @SamanPatou @Gilad_Hyperstar @Imaginym @CloverDragon03 @Spinoirr @Random-Helper323 @Elizhaa @SomebodyData @Hop_Hoppington-Hoppenhiemer @Amelia_Lonelyheart @Colonel_Krukov @Shadowbokunohero @Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan @Psychomaster35 @ElixirBlue

Would any of you be willing to help out with this, in my view seemingly necessary, revision please?

 

[Sniper670]

So do you agree with me or not?

Yup

 

[Ayewale]

I haven't watched origins but from the snippets I have seen it also has different mechanics from the main anime with things it pulls directly from the games. Maybe paying attention to these differences will show of there's a substantial difference that can't just explained away by game mechanics

This right here. There's obviously a gigantic difference between mediums. I am not sure why some just kinda sweep it all under the rug.

 

[Sniper670]

The CT and Arceus will have to be redone.

If their abstract forms are the ones maintaining the 2A structure, then it doesn't make sense for their avatars to scale. They'll rather be scaling to their feats shown

 

[Spinoirr]

alright what should be done here?

 

[Ayewale]

alright what should be done here?

I dunno. I'm waiting for approval from the higher-ups.

 

[Hasty12345]

The CT and Arceus will have to be redone.

If their abstract forms are the ones maintaining the 2A structure, then it doesn't make sense for their avatars to scale. They'll rather be scaling to their feats shown

I’ve always supported the avatars getting a varied tier due to their obvious fluctuations in power, but this doesn’t answer my question for the true forms?

 

[StrymULTRA]

Yeah. No. A massive, *******, NO.

I'll get in the next 2 days an answer to this, but this is completely stupid and ignores tons of stuff and other info which connects all the 3 main medias.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Where

Stuff like Gym Leaders, Champions (Cynthia and Leon especially), Villainous Team leaders (since you also need to consider USUM Rainbow Rocket versions).

And that's not even entering the rabbit hole of scaling for Pokémon Masters EX (Which I'll probably make a CRT later when I'll have the time)

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Every universe is essentially different and without proper and concrete proof, we don't consider them sharing the same canon and we don't cross scale between the universes at all. Some old files might have that, but no, we don't cross scale. Their canon varies heavily from universe to universe. See Ultimate and 616, for example. Or Supreme Power and Ultimate or 616. Or AOS and other realities. And so on.

You will see dozens of supermen from alt realities but they are vastly different and don't operate in the same level without further proof. Also difference of abilities. See Countdown, for example. We had heroes from dozens of realities, same characters and meant to have the same power set, but turned out, it was vastly different.

Only things we do cross scale in Marvel and DC are the cosmic entities - some of them - which are consistent across the board.

In short, we don't consider alt realities to be similar to Prime Earth or 616 in any form or shape - including canon, aside from a few instances, such as cosmic structure sometimes and verse consistent cosmic entities.

Yes? I was agreeing with you

If you thought I was saying we should cross scale Marvel and DC, then my bad.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

One example I can think of of moves working differently between anime and games is reflect and mirror coat. In the games they deal damage in proportion to the damage you take from a physical or special attack respectively, in the anime it sends the attack back itself

This I would also chalk up to being game mechanics since that solely has to do with the game animation not animating the attack being reflected.

Reflect has also never reflected attacks back at all in the anime, it still does what it does in the games. Suppressing physical damage by physical attacks.

There's also things like TMs which don't exist in the anime universe but do in the games and afaik adaptations like Origins which are more faithful to the games

This is one I will grant you. However, there is a matter of whether or not this would also be considered a limitation from game mechanics because of how, say, in Legends Arceus TMs don’t exist either but Pokémon there can still learn the moves. IIRC.

I haven't watched origins but from the snippets I have seen it also has different mechanics from the main anime with things it pulls directly from the games. Maybe paying attention to these differences will show of there's a substantial difference that can't just explained away by game mechanics

Such as?

I mean, a lot of the stuff in Pokémon is pretty similar across universes, but obviously some are different. For example, Red in his game continuity is one character, but another in Origins, and in the manga, and then Ash is also the anime version of Red (and there's M20-M24 Ash as well who is not the main Ash. And Mirror Ash. And Alternate Universe Ash in Journeys)

Obviously Red from the game wouldn't scale to feats done by manga Red, or by Ash

To clarify, we don’t cross scale the human characters in Pokémon, and I don’t agree with us doing that either. They should be the ones separated

What I disagree with is us separating out the Pokémon pages because of them indexing the species.

 

[Imaginym]

I was mentioned here such that I was given an alert. Now that I am here, I will say that I am not intimately familiar with the differences between the various settings the many Pokemon media, despite having watched a lot of the anime & watched a lot of the games.
I am also unfamiliar with how we interpret the canoncity & hierarchies of canonicity for the various Pokemon media.
(Although, IIRC, researching matches has indicated that some moves -IIRC, Pain Split for one- may differ in how they are depicted. I don't remember the exact differences, but I'd bet there are some moves that sometimes have notable differences in depiction across their own appearances in the same media.)

Though, AFAIK, our stance on species is Pokemon profiles are species, & the strongest version of a species (As would be used in a Versus Thread, as opposed to figuring out what the "Average" member of a species is like, including any headaches about if that's fair in Versus Threads when it means arbitrarily & knowingly having 1 participant be not at its strongest.), & as such, it should reasonably capable of other feats members of its species have shown, & most Pokemon do not significantly differ between media in the franchise, nor give significant reason to assume they may have some mutually exclusive capabilities from members of their own species, blatantly & deliberately unique individuals aside. (Like how before Gen 7, Ash had the only Greninja that could become Ash Greninja.)

At least, that is how I think I understand it.

 

[Sniper670]

You're right. In the anime and manga , there can be several depictions

I don't think of it as an inconsistency. It's just different Pokémon have their own way of showcasing moves

Tackle for example, will be different depending on what Pokémon for obvious reasons such as their physiology

 

[Colonel_Krukov]

I'm not that familiar with all of Pokemon, so take this with a pinch of salt.

I do think that they should be split up basically for Confluctor's reasons.

 

[Armorchompy]

I'm still in strong agreement with a split, BTW.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Not even just physiology too, but because the anime and manga have a much more realistic take on a Pokemons abilities than the games because of game mechanics, they’re able to do things “different” that is impossible to show in the games. And much of it is pretty common sense

For example, Will-O-Wisp in the games is “non damaging” and causes burns, while in the anime, before Pokémon Journeys changed it to do what the games effects do, it was depicted as a fire ball move. But putting aside game mechanics for a moment, what in any sense does it make for it to be “non damaging” when your literally hitting the opponent with fire balls? Does fire not damage you all of a sudden?

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

I'm still in strong agreement with a split, BTW.

So, you ignored my counters and couldn’t provide any examples that should support page splits, but still going to voice in agreement?

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

I'm not that familiar with all of Pokemon, so take this with a pinch of salt.

I do think that they should be split up basically for Confluctor's reasons.

Confluctors reasons would only apply to the human Pokémon pages like the Trainers and Champions, which is something we already do.

Pokémon species pages aren’t composited because the pages aren’t indexing specific characters. They’re indexing an entire species.

 

[Antvasima]

Can you summarise your reasoning for why we should not split the Pokemon pages, Kukui?

Counters from Ayewale would also be appreciated.

 

[Armorchompy]

So, you ignored my counters and couldn’t provide any examples that should support page splits, but still going to voice in agreement?

DC and Marvel have already been provided, site standards exist and you have failed to provide a satisfactory answer as to why this should be an exception.

For the record, yes, those standards also apply to species. Just look at DC Comics, again. Kryptonians, even just in comics that interact with each other, range from tier 5 to tier 2 (under sunlight of course).

 

[Sniper670]

Not even just physiology too, but because the anime and manga have a much more realistic take on a Pokemons abilities than the games because of game mechanics, they’re able to do things “different” that is impossible to show in the games. And much of it is pretty common sense

For example, Will-O-Wisp in the games is “non damaging” and causes burns, while in the anime, before Pokémon Journeys changed it to do what the games effects do, it was depicted as a fire ball move. But putting aside game mechanics for a moment, what in any sense does it make for it to be “non damaging” when your literally hitting the opponent with fire balls? Does fire not damage you all of a sudden?

You're right again. And also the fact GF never makes any effort into animating the moves uniquely for all Pokémon leaves a lot of room for creativity than the games

So in the end, there's no inconsistencies with move depictions

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

Would most Legendaries really be considered species?

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Can you summarise your reasoning for why we should not split the Pokemon pages, Kukui?

Will do in a sec

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

DC and Marvel have already been provided, site standards exist and you have failed to provide a satisfactory answer as to why this should be an exception.

For the record, yes, those standards also apply to species. Just look at DC Comics, again. Kryptonians, even just in comics that interact with each other, range from tier 5 to tier 2 (under sunlight of course).

Oh look, another false equivalency and something I already debunked.

Kryptonians are not all the same thing as Pokemon, because they are different characters. How many times does this need to be brought up?

The OP already brought them up, same with Transformers and Autobots, or Dragon Ball and Saiyans. Kryptonians “species” (which are not even that but more of an alien race like Saiyans) are not the same thing here because they are all different and separate characters. Just as much as Optimus Prime and Bumblebee are different characters, or Goku and Vegeta.

A wild Pikachu you find running around in the wild in one universe and a wild one in another universe are not different characters, they are the exact same creature. A wild mouse that controls electricity, has access to the same moves, the same powers, the same kind of strength, literally nothing between them is different.

You know what example does pertain to this though? Digimon. And they do the exact same shit with their species pages too. Neither you or the OP have negated this with any argument.

 

[Armorchompy]

Kryptonians are not all the same thing as Pokemon, because they are different characters. How many times does this need to be brought up?

The OP already brought them up, same with Transformers and Autobots, or Dragon Ball and Saiyans. Kryptonians “species” (which are not even that but more of an alien race like Saiyans) are not the same thing here because they are all different and separate characters. Just as much as Optimus Prime and Bumblebee are different characters, or Goku and Vegeta.

Wrong. Kryptonians under yellow sunlight all share a baseline level of power which is usually portrayed to be comparable though inferior to Superman's. That means that any random Kryptonian in Pre-Crisis will be 2-C, while any random one in Post-Crisis will be 5-A (or maybe 4-B but let's not split hairs here).

You know what example does pertain to this though? Digimon. And they do the exact same shit with their species pages too. Neither you or the OP have negated this with any argument.

Don't give a shit, don't know what Digimon is but even to my knowledge and through conversations with verse supporters they have plenty of their own weird mechanics. Regardless it's not a verse as tightly observed as DC so I dunno why you're preferring it for verse standards.

 

[Bobsican]

Best way to put it is that the Pokémon species pages are more like verse-specific physiology pages for each individual evolutionary line, rather than composited characters. As ExecutorN0 explained, the reason stuff from "otherwise" entirely unrelated universes and the like are used for indexing comes out of most displays of any given species being intended consistently to be within their own boundaries for our purposes, and so, for example, any Wobbuffet could theoretically use Astonish on their own even if that's not shown in the games in particular, which is the basis for the pages. We're already excluding artificial means of training (notably TMs), for instance.

So I disagree on separating the pages.

 

[Andytrenom]

Reflect has also never reflected attacks back at all in the anime, it still does what it does in the games. Suppressing physical damage by physical attacks.

Apologies. I meant counter, not reflect

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Wrong. Kryptonians under yellow sunlight all share a baseline level of power which is usually portrayed to be comparable though inferior to Superman's. That means that any random Kryptonian in Pre-Crisis will be 2-C, while any random one in Post-Crisis will be 5-A (or maybe 4-B but let's not split hairs here).

Im not exactly seeing what about this really negated my initial point? They may all share a common tier baseline wise, but at the end of the day, each Kryptonian isn't literally the exact same person, creature, or being, no more than humans are of the same race but entirely different people. Their capabilities aren't innately the same all around, and the different mediums in Marvel depicting their strength differently, showing it's not universally the same, would prove this even more.

Don't give a shit, don't know what Digimon is but even to my knowledge and through conversations with verse supporters they have plenty of their own weird mechanics.

Thanks for pretty much saying you don't know what you're talking about then. But no, im apart of digimon discussions with verse supporters too, and their indexing of their species pages is exactly the same as what's been done with Pokemon.

 

[Armorchompy]

Im not exactly seeing what about this really negated my initial point? They may all share a common tier baseline wise, but at the end of the day, each Kryptonian isn't literally the exact same person, creature, or being, no more than humans are of the same race but entirely different people. Their capabilities aren't innately the same all around,

Yes, they do share capabilities, most of their P&A and their statistics are shared among all members of the species. They're exactly as homogenous as you'd expect a species to be.

Also, Pokémon do have varying physical capabilities between individual, IVs and Nature prove that there is at least some small variation among them (Do we consider Pokémon to have only one of their abilities? That's a big one too), and that's without going into outliers like Ash's Pikachu. They also vary in size a lot as per PLA (and a few other games). They're not worlds apart within a universe but there is variation, probably more variation than there is between random Kryptonians which are literally just people that gain the same physical P&A and stat boosts under sunlight.

And the different mediums in Marvel depicting their strength differently, showing it's not universally the same, would prove this even more.

DC, not Marvel. But like, that's exactly what people are arguing applies to Pokémon too, dude. The exact same thing.

Thanks for pretty much saying you don't know what you're talking about then.

At least I admit it instead of being stubborn about a verse I don't know. And at least I don't get the verse's name wrong. But yes, that is literally what I said LOL, dunno why you're acting like I didn't.

 

[Pikaman]

Im not exactly seeing what about this really negated my initial point? They may all share a common tier baseline wise, but at the end of the day, each Kryptonian isn't literally the exact same person, creature, or being, no more than humans are of the same race but entirely different people. Their capabilities aren't innately the same all around, and the different mediums in Marvel depicting their strength differently, showing it's not universally the same, would prove this even more.

But no two Pokémon are the same in the way no two Kryptonians are the same, Kryptonians may have somewhat different appearances, attributes, or personalities, but I’m pretty sure all types of Pokémon tick at least two of those boxes, sometimes all three. The specific differences are ultimately arbitrary, but the presence of them isn’t. Some Kryptonians are stronger/taller/heavier than others, some Pikachus are as well. They’re both species with some varying attributes but ultimately share said species. Pokémon shouldn’t really be treated differently to species such as Kryptonians because they’re both... well, species. If species are not immune to these standards then a profile split makes sense. And yeah, the examples showing that these standards do apply to species have made sense with weak counters

 

[Pikaman]

But no two Pokémon are the same in the way no two Kryptonians are the same, Kryptonians may have somewhat different appearances, attributes, or personalities, but I’m pretty sure all types of Pokémon tick at least two of those boxes, sometimes all three. The specific differences are ultimately arbitrary, but the presence of them isn’t. Some Kryptonians are stronger/taller/heavier than others, some Pikachus are as well. They’re both species with some varying attributes but ultimately share said species. Pokémon shouldn’t really be treated differently to species such as Kryptonians because they’re both... well, species. If species are not immune to these standards then a profile split makes sense. And yeah, the examples showing that these standards do apply to species have made sense with weak counters

Like, any two random Kryptonians could have differences in size, gender, physical attributes, but they’re still the same species.

Pokémon have these differences too, they’re not any different. The differences are more arbitrary on paper, but any two Pokémon (even types of Pokémon such as two Pikachus) will likely have just as many differences between them as any two Kryptonians

 

[Arceus0x]

But no two Pokémon are the same in the way no two Kryptonians are the same, Kryptonians may have somewhat different appearances, attributes, or personalities, but I’m pretty sure all types of Pokémon tick at least two of those boxes, sometimes all three. The specific differences are ultimately arbitrary, but the presence of them isn’t. Some Kryptonians are stronger/taller/heavier than others, some Pikachus are as well. They’re both species with some varying attributes but ultimately share said species. Pokémon shouldn’t really be treated differently to species such as Kryptonians because they’re both... well, species. If species are not immune to these standards then a profile split makes sense. And yeah, the examples showing that these standards do apply to species have made sense with weak counters

Except Kryptonians are people with names and very different faces that serve different roles in their civilizations and Pokemon are basically nameless animals with just enough intelligence to communicate 99% of the time. All Charmanders are Charmanders, all Squirtles are Squirtles. If minor differences such as size matter then might as well delete species profiles as a whole since no two bears are the same and no two cats are the same. All pokemon of one species have the same powers and generally the same appearance except for shinies. The only change one can find is height. Otherwise all pokemon except for the few rare outliers have the same power set and behave generally the same with at best minor differences in height and an extremely rare difference in color.

 

[Arceus0x]

When it comes to actually different and individual profiles we already have anime and PMD and even manga profiles for them like that one huge Haunter, the god tier Bewear and Guildmaster Wigglytuff

 

[Armorchompy]

Except Kryptonians are people with names and very different faces that serve different roles in their civilizations and Pokemon are basically nameless animals with just enough intelligence to communicate 99% of the time. All Charmanders are Charmanders, all Squirtles are Squirtles. If minor differences such as size matter then might as well delete species profiles as a whole since no two bears are the same and no two cats are the same. All pokemon of one species have the same powers and generally the same appearance except for shinies. The only change one can find is height. Otherwise all pokemon except for the few rare outliers have the same power set and behave generally the same with at best minor differences in height and an extremely rare difference in color.

We're talking about physical not mental differences. And Pokémon have those more than Kryptonians.

 

[Pikaman]

Except Kryptonians are people with names and very different faces that serve different roles in their civilizations and Pokemon are basically nameless animals with just enough intelligence to communicate 99% of the time

None of this actually disproves anything, intelligence of species doesn’t come into the equation. I get it feels like it does but it really doesn’t. Pikachus can have different shaped tails depending on gender, that bears just as much relevance as any two Kryptonians having different faces.

time. All Charmanders are Charmanders, all Squirtles are Squirtles.

All Kryptonians are Kryptonians, see how easy that is?

 

[Armorchompy]

Look, I'm not interested in having this idiotic discussion over minor details. Our assumptions (or lack thereof) in regards to Kryptonians and many other things prove that we split species stats/P&A between universes. Pokémon have no actual tangible reasons to be an exception. If other verses don't conform to this and have no reasons not to (this is to be debated in OTHER THREADS) they should be made to. This is final.

 

[Pikaman]

If minor differences such as size matter then might as well delete species profiles as a whole since no two bears are the same and no two cats are the same.

This isn’t about Pokémon’s classification as a species, it’s about the fact these standards apply to species. Kryptonians are a species in spite of differences, so are Pokémon. The standards apply to Kryptonians, THAT’S the precedent, and we need to start applying them to Pokémon too

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Can you summarise your reasoning for why we should not split the Pokemon pages, Kukui?

Okay, so to summarize why I disagree with splitting the pokemon pages, it all has to so with most of our pages being species pages, not character pages. This may be a little long, but it's necessary to explain properly.

What do I mean by species page? Rather than indexing the capabilities of a specific character, a species page indexes everything that the entire given species is naturally capable of doing generally speaking, without including what specific characters of that species can do. They detail and cover a whole species instead of an explicit character. That's what the Pokemon pages, besides characters like humans or specific pokemon, do this for the most part. They cover the entirety of a whole given pokemon species and index it on the page.

For example, Pikachu. Our Pikachu page indexes the capabilities of the entire Pikachu species. So things that any wild Pikachu does, things that aren't outside of a pikachu's natural capabilities, would be put on the page. The big problem I have with this argument on splitting the pages, such as Pikachu's, is that species pages are not actual composite pages. Compositing a page means taking the capabilities of whole different characters and putting them together as one, like compositing Goku across different mediums, or Superman across different mediums, which is something we obviously ban and don't do here. But a species page is different from what this standard covers.

The purposes of a species page isn't to index one single version of that species, but all of them. So if we use Pikachu as an example, the Pikachu page isn't indexing one single Pikachu. It's indexing ALL Pikachu of their given species. Everything that every member of the wild species is capable of doing. That's why the species page gets everything because it covers all they could possibly perform, and in Pokemon, there is no variation or different depictions of a pokemon species across each of their mediums. This may look like a composite page, but it's not a real composite underneath, because different characters are not being pulled from different mediums and being put on the same page.

Pokemon that are considered their own characters, with their own unique abilities, don't get things from the species page. An example would be Ash Ketchums Pikachu. This Pikachu is a particular character. It's not just any random Pikachu, but one that has a specific array of abilities that a normal Pikachu can't achieve, hence why it has it's own separate page that doesn't get cross scaling to the Pikachu species page.

Pokemon isn't the only example either. Digimon is another series that does the same thing with their pages that "look" composited, but are not. Just like Pokemon, Digimon pages cover the entirety of what a specific Digimon species can do, and Digimon who are treated as their own characters get their own separate pages. Like the Agumon species being a separate page from three different Agumon that are considered three different characters.

This is something most of our Pokemon pages do, and because of that, splitting them into different mediums makes no sense and is something im strongly against doing.

 

[Armorchompy]

We disallow composites (and composites aren't just from different canon, Composite Link was axed just like any other), and we don't allow for alternate universe variations to be scaled to each other with no relevant evidence. There is no concrete proof a Pikachu from the original games' world can have all the same abilities as a Pikachu from the manga and vice versa (doubly so given certain tutors only exist in specific universes, causing certain profiles to become fully paradoxical)

In short our current treatment breaks site standards and should be forbidden for any verse unless special context changes it. Pokémon has no such context.