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I agree with Kukui.
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Out of curiosity, what are the biggest/major contradictions/incompatibilities between the different media of pokemon that would help support your proposal?
Why not? If you're worried that all the pages will be deleted, a good number of them would only really be reworked. Even Arceus (someone who disagrees with me) echoes the sentiment that not too many pages would be deleted.leaning towards agreeing with the OP, but I don't want to
The precedent (based off virtually every franchise I can find sans a few) is that other forms of media outside of the 'main' material are supposed to be considered as separate canons unless very explicitly stated otherwise. For ones that don't really have a "main" series (ala Transformers) everything is considered separate canons still by default. I've brought up several examples throughout the thread, but for the sake of making a point:To clarify, for franchises as big as Pokemon, what is the precedent regarding the media?
Do we take Pokemon as a unique case compared to other franchises? If so or not, why?
Problem with this example: The Real Life "verse" is consistent within itself. PKMN portrayals between medium are not. OP had given plenty of differences between them, but even someone ignorant of the verse can spot them quite quickly.If you want to complain about the species pages...
Delete every single organism page on here. No exceptions. No if ands or buts.The Real World
Real Life/The Real World/Reality. It is where we all live. Real Life is the conjectured state of things as they actually exist, rather than as they may appear or might be imagined. In a wider definition, reality includes everything that is and has been, whether it is observable or...vsbattles.fandom.com
As for the thread, I honestly disagree, if a multiverse cannot contain any contradictions between seperate universes then what's the point of it being a multiverse in the first place?
But the pokemon mediums sharing a multiverse (which is a big assumption, for the record) doesn't make them share a canon. See: Transformers, Marvel, DC, etc.If you want to complain about the species pages...
Delete every single organism page on here. No exceptions. No if ands or buts.The Real World
Real Life/The Real World/Reality. It is where we all live. Real Life is the conjectured state of things as they actually exist, rather than as they may appear or might be imagined. In a wider definition, reality includes everything that is and has been, whether it is observable or...vsbattles.fandom.com
As for the thread, I honestly disagree, if a multiverse cannot contain any contradictions between seperate universes then what's the point of it being a multiverse in the first place?
There's a reason why the title for this CRT has a 'part 1' in it. The pokemon verse is in a dire state.And btw, let's not even get started with the most asinine quote within the verse page:
Do I even need to explain the sheer ridiculousness with this?
- All of our Pokémon species profiles assume the Pokémon is wild, Level 100 with perfect IVs, and know every possible move and skill without being trained.
I'm 100% sure that's a complete and utterly false equivalency, obviously we're not cross scaling Lions throughout several universes, not unless we suddenly became aware of alternate timelines recentlyIf you want to complain about the species pages...
Delete every single organism page on here. No exceptions. No if ands or buts.The Real World
Real Life/The Real World/Reality. It is where we all live. Real Life is the conjectured state of things as they actually exist, rather than as they may appear or might be imagined. In a wider definition, reality includes everything that is and has been, whether it is observable or...vsbattles.fandom.com
As for the thread, I honestly disagree, if a multiverse cannot contain any contradictions between seperate universes then what's the point of it being a multiverse in the first place?
it is lolI'm 100% sure that's a complete and utterly false equivalency, obviously we're not cross scaling Lions throughout several universes, not unless we suddenly became aware of alternate timelines recently
True there are many franchises who have manyworlds interpretation theory where universes branches off over possibilities but even so games and movies coming from same media but different sources aren't considered canon here by default.The inconsistencies between canons cannot simply be dismissed as 'oh the Pokemon Multiverse is very large'. There isn't any proof that they share a Multiverse, wiki policy assumes that different mediums = different canons unless explicitly stated otherwise no matter how similar they look, and I am aware that a multiverse exists. My canon breakdown acknowledges so multiple times...
Dont know how long you've been on this wikia, but i've participated in much more of these pokemon topic discussions than you have, and they are in fact not supporters. Have barely participated in any of the major threads, especially the ones at recent. And again, this topic on splitting the canons up has been done numerous times on this site. Requesting for a topic ban when we've gone through this bullshit again, and again, and again, is not acting in bad faith but to stop the needless and annoying repetition of people just not accepting shit from what was explained several times already.Their experience with Pokemon doesn't nullify the fact that calling for a topic ban is in extremely bad taste (and some of them do have experience and are Supporters). It being brought up multiple times doesn't make any future attempt automatically invalid, either.
I don't have to assume because in an actual debate, when a counter argument is presented and your going to side against said argument, your responsibility is to debunk said argument or else you will come across as just mindlessly agreeing with whatever you want and ignoring points that have an actual basis.You also assume that people 'haven't noticed the counters' instead of them seeing your posts and just...not agreeing. Imagine if I said the people who agree with you just don't understand my post; I'd come off as being arrogant and annoying.
It's rather simple and I fail to see what's hard to understand about it. If one canon source is considered a parallel universe to another canon source, rather than them being considered separate continuities, that establishes that both canon sources are connected and exist in the same "world".Canons aren't alternate universes in Pokemon...I think we've lost track of what canon means. 'Canons being alternate universes' makes no sense: i
Unless you are talking about specific cases like the main characters, no they aren't. Mystery Dungeon pokemon for the most part are literally just wild pokemon fighting each other and living in their own world without trainer or human assistance like they'd normally get otherwise. If a wild pokemon can do something, the other wild members of their species have the same natural capability of replicating that and their feats are indicative to that entire species.Any given Pokemon in Pokemon Mystery Dungeon (which you claimed should be a part of the composite canon) is far more intelligent than any given pokemon in the anime & games. They are the exact same creature and yet are more than different enough to warrant their own profile.
None of these kinds of significant differences happens in Pokemon as far as how each species is depicted however. And Transformers in the first place isn't a verse that treats different canon mediums as an alternate world to each other.Also you're not a Transformers Nerd, but even Generic Autobots in each verse have significant differences (for example, their origin differs greatly, how similar Cybertronian society is to ours is very different, their average durability varies a lot) lol
Yes, but what matters here is if theres cross scaling feats between Pokemon and Nobunaga's Ambition. There isn't. So Conquest doesn't break a single rule about crossover feats as none exist in the first place.The actual characters from Nobunaga's Ambition do appear in Pokemon Conquest, though. The other warlords are based off them, but Nobunaga shares the exact same design, appearance and character as his game counterpart.
...No I didn't ignore it? I literally said that even in our crossover rules, we allow crossovers to be one sided canons. Canon to one verse but not another.
- Pokemon Conquest having a canon-accurate portrayal of Arceus does nothing to make it accurate. You ignored my point about how plenty of crossover games try to be accurate like this, too.
You pretty much just repeated what I countered earlier, so I'll just repeat what I said. He never said the game wasn't canon or that he doesn't know if it's canon. He said he doesn't know if the TPC will use Shadow Mewtwo in the future or not, which doesnt mean Pokken's canon status is on the chopping block.The Pokken Tournament producer said pretty plainly "it's canonical in the context of the games"...which (a) means the games are a different canon, otherwise his distinction wouldn't make sense and (b) is very, very specific. He doesn't know if it's canon to the other games or not. Which in of itself acknowledges that Pokken is it's own canon.
Again, your parroting what you said in previous reasons that I already gave counters for and just repeating it again here.Pokemon creatures do vary across mediums, though. Intelligence varies significantly, the mechanics of moves changes, type immunities can be circumvented in ways that aren't possible in the games consistently, etc.
Marvel and DC don't treat canons like alternate universes that are connected to each other. What part of this are you not getting? If the canons are consisdered alternate universes, they are connected to each other. If they're only separate canons, they are not."Except you have yet to bring up an actual similar example, all of your examples are literally false equivalances. You have yet to even reference a verse where canons are treated as alternate worlds, which by then, I could start taking the comparison seriously." Well, this is a pretty loaded statement.
Firstly, Marvel & DC. I dunno what to tell you other than the fact that we treat different universes like their own separate canons. I have referenced it several times at this point.
........because the games and anime ARE parallel to each other as confirmed by an author statement. I've mentioned this like 5 times now.
- Secondly, this assumes that the pokemon mediums are all just parallel to each other, something that has no proof. Yes, each games are different timelines...why does this automatically apply to the anime? Even Executor himself said that he doesn't think they share a multiverse.
It absolutely is relevant, because if they're not considered alternate universes, they never had any reason to be considered connected with each other in the first place.Thirdly, you're being rather dismissive of the examples. Whether LOTR treats the movies as being another universe is irrelevant; what matters is how the LOTR universe has far more artistic control than TPCi, to the point where Christopher Tolkein spent his lifetime keep adaptations consistent. There's even the Tolkein Estate to further manage things, and Peter Jackson dedicated himself to making the LOTR movies as accurate as possible. Yet, this accuracy (per the wiki's standards) are not enough to equalize the movies and books.
We were never arguing for all profiles to be "composited" in the first place, so not even seeing the point in mentioning this.Therefore, by this standard, accuracy/consistency alone is not an argument for compositing all verse profiles.
No. Just because it by itself doesnt establish canonicity doesnt mean it's not a supporting detail, and again, the practice of canons being considered parallel worlds to each other justifies the use of this than a verse that does not treat their canons like that.You obviously have more arguments than that, but can we agree 'TPCi monitors things and makes sure their correct' isn't a point anymore?
Because for the ******* upteenth time, the rule on banning composite profiles is to ban combining different characters. What part of
- A case by case basis is not an invitation to ignore literally all standards on how canon works. Things are rated on a case by case basis only when the rule itself is vague: "compositing canons is not allowed" is a pretty hard rule.
Except it absolutely does. Alternate worlds makes these canons connected. Different canons doesn't nullify that fact. If they're connected, they can be used. And evidence of them being connected exists and has already been presented.
- Everyone seems to acknowledge that the manga, anime and games are different canons (calling them alternate worlds does nothing to make this less true) so it follows that their profiles remain separate.
Kindly present evidences of this for each verse then please.
- "Again,. im going to ask a simple question and I want an answer. Do any of these verses you named have ANY level of evidence that specifies their canons being considered parallel universes to each other?"
- Yes, Marvel & DC. Different canons are called Different Earths.
- Yes, Star Wars, too.
- Transformers as well.
- They are not false equivalences by default as explained above.
Again, do you have any confirmation on the book canon for Harry Potter and the HP movie canon being considered parallel worlds linked to each other? If not, then false equivalence.Individual Pokemon canons being established to have a multiverse =/= All of the canons take place in said multiverse. By this logic, the Harry Potter movies and books exist in the same universe because alternate timelines were established, so of course they're both parallel to each other (and it would also mean HP answers 'yes' to our question to , which makes literally every verse answer a 'yes' to your question).
And Pokemon also does the exact same thing with specifying canons existing as part of each other as parallel worlds, establishing there's a connection between them the same way Transfomers and Marvel/DC do. Such as, for example, the games and anime being explicitly stated to be parallel worlds.Except this doesn't make sense: the existence of a multiverse doesn't mean everything is suddenly a part of it. Transformer canons are a part of the multiverse because it's explicitly stated that they all exist in a multiverse. Marvel & DC canons share a multiverse because...it's explicitly stated that they are. Not "the concept of multiverses exists", moreso "yes, every marvel adapation is part of the multiverse". Pokemon is more of the former.
Because we humans have something called common sense here, and don't need information to be spoon fed to us when the obvious is literally right in ******* front of us. Acting otherwise is just being willfully ignorant.
- "And its hilarious you mention Bulbpedia when, on that very same source..." On that very same source, Alain does not have a section for being in the games, because there's no reason to assume that speech was a real reference and not an easter egg. There is literally no source on the internet that definitely says Alain is in the games.
Headcanon, and im not even surprised this was your response. But anyway, there is absolutely nothing that says Alain in the games isn't the same from the anime, and arguing this is just ******* stupid. Why would Steven mention a character that up til then, he's only been seen interacting with in the anime?Also, assuming he is in the games, it'd be a game-specific version of Alain with no relation to the anime, because as you said, they are completely different mediums/canons/universes/whatever the **** we go by at this point.
And they are because see above. Or rather, you can easily just find the confirmation in Ex's own blog that links the author confirmation that they're parallel.The canons are not confirmed to be parallel because see above.
Except they dont need to be happening at the same time, because they're in their own parallel worlds CONNECTED to each other. Like...what?"So your literal only response to this is that "it can't be true because then the anime is canon to the games, which just cant be true!" No, my response to this is that the anime and game stories differ way too much to both be happening at the same time, it's not that difficult. You yourself have acknowledged that they are widely different, hence the multiverse designation.
Or maybe, just maybe, your so called inconsistencies are in fact not actual inconsistencies and im justifying each one of them because they simply aren't inconsistent?Your point on the anime game mechanics is really illuminating. I think this is the fundamental difference in this argument. You have to go out of your way to justify every inconsistency, be it them taking place in a multiverse being "confirmed" or them being "unable" to portray how realistic battles or how PMD's vastly different portrayal of Pokemon because it "literally takes someone from our world". Whereas Occam's Razor and wiki policy just default to the obvious: they're wildly inconsistent because they don't share a canon. There isn't any difference or inconsistency I could possibly bring up to change your mind.
When your points don't give me a convincing on look on taking you seriously here, then that is what's going to happen. Especially when points like assuming characters from one medium existing in different mediums somehow only means they are only different versions of the character, without a shred of evidence to even hint at that, is being seriously brought up.It's the difference between an essay looking for an answer to a question and an essay trying to prove an answer to a question; the second one is going to have the same outcome no matter what evidence it encounters, even if it's literally nothing. It's also why literally the moment the thread started, before any long debates or hostility of every kind, you jumped to being rude, gave me no benefit of doubt, and assumed I was a liar, and then doubled down after I pointed it out.
Because since when has a game mechanic battle in any ******* pokemon game ever gave options like this? Literally, when have they? I was being sarcastic when making this point because the answer is incredibly obvious on why they can't. These are battles, turn based battles at that, pitting Pokemon and their movesets against each other. Not their lore powers, which are literally never permitted in a ******* battle that isn't a cutscene from the actual damn story.Like, yeah, the games can't show Palkia using space to **** with people (apart from lore talking about it's powers, and the move spatial rend, and the pokedex outright confirming it's abilities) or Kyogre drowning the battlefield (apart from having an ability to causes so much rain fire-type moves don't work or nearly flooding the entire region passively) or Dialga Time Stopping people (which, if it could do in the games...they would say it would) or Jirachi making a wish whenever it wants (which the games explicitly say it can't). Or how the game can't display any of Deoxys powers because npc lore, npc statements, pokedex entries, animations or special moves are all too expensive for the games. Or how the games literally having unique universes doesn't make their cosmologies unique. Or how "Flying Types are intentionally immune to spikes in-game but can take spike damage in the anime" is clearly just the games being limited and not the anime and games being very different...
Because you give me no reason to not look at your arguments and not think some of the points being given are straight up nonsensical.With all of this being said it kinda seems like you're arguing with as much bad faith against me as possible. It makes it pretty difficult to respond to your criticisms sometimes. Hopefully when you read this and come back with a response you would have chilled out a lot because we might as well not continue debating otherwise.
Im not sure what us being or not being aware of alternate worlds has anything to do with his point on the treatment of species profiles? A lion would get cross scaling across several universes, because in every single one of those universes, the lion species is exactly the same with the same capabilities.I'm 100% sure that's a complete and utterly false equivalency, obviously we're not cross scaling Lions throughout several universes, not unless we suddenly became aware of alternate timelines recently
Not a single example listed in the OP proves a pokemon species differentiates across mediums, and I have debunked each and every one of them pertaining to Pokemon.Problem with this example: The Real Life "verse" is consistent within itself. PKMN portrayals between medium are not. OP had given plenty of differences between them, but even someone ignorant of the verse can spot them quite quickly.
Which, once more, even OP acknowledges the fact that similarities between mediums exist. A Pikachu will always be a mouse-like creature that can store electricity in its cheeks, whether you play Mystery Dungeon, Pokken, Conquest, the TCG, any of the games or watch the anime.
However, only PMD Pikachu showcases the usage of IQ skills. Only Pokken Pikachu can essentially execute multiple martial-arts based combinations of its moves. Only in the manga can Pikachu remotely control its Substitute to bypass psychic barriers and channel attacks. Edit: Not a single Pikachu can showcase all of these at once. That's fundamentally the problem with our "species" profiles (a moniker only made to "hide" the composite nature).
Edit: Not a single Pikachu can showcase all of these at once. That's fundamentally the problem with our "species" profiles (a moniker only made to "hide" the composite nature).
Every universe is essentially different and without proper and concrete proof, we don't consider them sharing the same canon and we don't cross scale between the universes at all. Some old files might have that, but no, we don't cross scale. Their canon varies heavily from universe to universe. See Ultimate and 616, for example. Or Supreme Power and Ultimate or 616. Or AOS and other realities. And so on.Marvel and DC don't treat canons like alternate universes that are connected to each other. What part of this are you not getting? If the canons are consisdered alternate universes, they are connected to each other. If they're only separate canons, they are not.
Look, there's nothing "vastly different" across the board with Pokémon as far as I can remember.
You will see dozens of supermen from alt realities but they are vastly different and don't operate in the same level without further proof. Also difference of abilities. See Countdown, for example. We had heroes from dozens of realities, same characters and meant to have the same power set, but turned out, it was vastly different.
Same as PokémonOnly things we do cross scale in Marvel and DC are the cosmic entities - some of them - which are consistent across the board.
They have separate profiles broI mean, a lot of the stuff in Pokémon is pretty similar across universes, but obviously some are different. For example, Red in his game continuity is one character, but another in Origins, and in the manga, and then Ash is also the anime version of Red (and there's M20-M24 Ash as well who is not the main Ash. And Mirror Ash. And Alternate Universe Ash in Journeys)
Obviously Red from the game wouldn't scale to feats done by manga Red, or by Ash
Not everyone has. Many of the characters have fused profiles between continuities, or just ignore stuff that isn't the gamesThey have separate profiles bro
WhereNot everyone has. Many of the characters have fused profiles between continuities, or just ignore stuff that isn't the games
I do not think that this seems to be a site policy thread, and our standards very heavily discourage using composite profile pages for different versions of characters in the first place, so probably not.@Antvasima
Would it be best to move this to a staff thread since we need to cross-examine our site rules to confirm that we are following them and precedent or establish a new precedent.