Sniper670
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They need a varies tierThis wouldn't affect the Creation Trio and Arceus, right?
Since they created the multiverse?
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They need a varies tierThis wouldn't affect the Creation Trio and Arceus, right?
Since they created the multiverse?
YupSo do you agree with me or not?
This right here. There's obviously a gigantic difference between mediums. I am not sure why some just kinda sweep it all under the rug.I haven't watched origins but from the snippets I have seen it also has different mechanics from the main anime with things it pulls directly from the games. Maybe paying attention to these differences will show of there's a substantial difference that can't just explained away by game mechanics
I’ve always supported the avatars getting a varied tier due to their obvious fluctuations in power, but this doesn’t answer my question for the true forms?The CT and Arceus will have to be redone.
If their abstract forms are the ones maintaining the 2A structure, then it doesn't make sense for their avatars to scale. They'll rather be scaling to their feats shown
Stuff like Gym Leaders, Champions (Cynthia and Leon especially), Villainous Team leaders (since you also need to consider USUM Rainbow Rocket versions).Where
Yes? I was agreeing with youEvery universe is essentially different and without proper and concrete proof, we don't consider them sharing the same canon and we don't cross scale between the universes at all. Some old files might have that, but no, we don't cross scale. Their canon varies heavily from universe to universe. See Ultimate and 616, for example. Or Supreme Power and Ultimate or 616. Or AOS and other realities. And so on.
You will see dozens of supermen from alt realities but they are vastly different and don't operate in the same level without further proof. Also difference of abilities. See Countdown, for example. We had heroes from dozens of realities, same characters and meant to have the same power set, but turned out, it was vastly different.
Only things we do cross scale in Marvel and DC are the cosmic entities - some of them - which are consistent across the board.
In short, we don't consider alt realities to be similar to Prime Earth or 616 in any form or shape - including canon, aside from a few instances, such as cosmic structure sometimes and verse consistent cosmic entities.
This I would also chalk up to being game mechanics since that solely has to do with the game animation not animating the attack being reflected.One example I can think of of moves working differently between anime and games is reflect and mirror coat. In the games they deal damage in proportion to the damage you take from a physical or special attack respectively, in the anime it sends the attack back itself
This is one I will grant you. However, there is a matter of whether or not this would also be considered a limitation from game mechanics because of how, say, in Legends Arceus TMs don’t exist either but Pokémon there can still learn the moves. IIRC.There's also things like TMs which don't exist in the anime universe but do in the games and afaik adaptations like Origins which are more faithful to the games
Such as?I haven't watched origins but from the snippets I have seen it also has different mechanics from the main anime with things it pulls directly from the games. Maybe paying attention to these differences will show of there's a substantial difference that can't just explained away by game mechanics
To clarify, we don’t cross scale the human characters in Pokémon, and I don’t agree with us doing that either. They should be the ones separatedI mean, a lot of the stuff in Pokémon is pretty similar across universes, but obviously some are different. For example, Red in his game continuity is one character, but another in Origins, and in the manga, and then Ash is also the anime version of Red (and there's M20-M24 Ash as well who is not the main Ash. And Mirror Ash. And Alternate Universe Ash in Journeys)
Obviously Red from the game wouldn't scale to feats done by manga Red, or by Ash
So, you ignored my counters and couldn’t provide any examples that should support page splits, but still going to voice in agreement?I'm still in strong agreement with a split, BTW.
Confluctors reasons would only apply to the human Pokémon pages like the Trainers and Champions, which is something we already do.I'm not that familiar with all of Pokemon, so take this with a pinch of salt.
I do think that they should be split up basically for Confluctor's reasons.
DC and Marvel have already been provided, site standards exist and you have failed to provide a satisfactory answer as to why this should be an exception.So, you ignored my counters and couldn’t provide any examples that should support page splits, but still going to voice in agreement?
You're right again. And also the fact GF never makes any effort into animating the moves uniquely for all Pokémon leaves a lot of room for creativity than the gamesNot even just physiology too, but because the anime and manga have a much more realistic take on a Pokemons abilities than the games because of game mechanics, they’re able to do things “different” that is impossible to show in the games. And much of it is pretty common sense
For example, Will-O-Wisp in the games is “non damaging” and causes burns, while in the anime, before Pokémon Journeys changed it to do what the games effects do, it was depicted as a fire ball move. But putting aside game mechanics for a moment, what in any sense does it make for it to be “non damaging” when your literally hitting the opponent with fire balls? Does fire not damage you all of a sudden?
Will do in a secCan you summarise your reasoning for why we should not split the Pokemon pages, Kukui?
Oh look, another false equivalency and something I already debunked.DC and Marvel have already been provided, site standards exist and you have failed to provide a satisfactory answer as to why this should be an exception.
For the record, yes, those standards also apply to species. Just look at DC Comics, again. Kryptonians, even just in comics that interact with each other, range from tier 5 to tier 2 (under sunlight of course).
Wrong. Kryptonians under yellow sunlight all share a baseline level of power which is usually portrayed to be comparable though inferior to Superman's. That means that any random Kryptonian in Pre-Crisis will be 2-C, while any random one in Post-Crisis will be 5-A (or maybe 4-B but let's not split hairs here).Kryptonians are not all the same thing as Pokemon, because they are different characters. How many times does this need to be brought up?
The OP already brought them up, same with Transformers and Autobots, or Dragon Ball and Saiyans. Kryptonians “species” (which are not even that but more of an alien race like Saiyans) are not the same thing here because they are all different and separate characters. Just as much as Optimus Prime and Bumblebee are different characters, or Goku and Vegeta.
Don't give a shit, don't know what Digimon is but even to my knowledge and through conversations with verse supporters they have plenty of their own weird mechanics. Regardless it's not a verse as tightly observed as DC so I dunno why you're preferring it for verse standards.You know what example does pertain to this though? Digimon. And they do the exact same shit with their species pages too. Neither you or the OP have negated this with any argument.
Reflect has also never reflected attacks back at all in the anime, it still does what it does in the games. Suppressing physical damage by physical attacks.
Im not exactly seeing what about this really negated my initial point? They may all share a common tier baseline wise, but at the end of the day, each Kryptonian isn't literally the exact same person, creature, or being, no more than humans are of the same race but entirely different people. Their capabilities aren't innately the same all around, and the different mediums in Marvel depicting their strength differently, showing it's not universally the same, would prove this even more.Wrong. Kryptonians under yellow sunlight all share a baseline level of power which is usually portrayed to be comparable though inferior to Superman's. That means that any random Kryptonian in Pre-Crisis will be 2-C, while any random one in Post-Crisis will be 5-A (or maybe 4-B but let's not split hairs here).
Thanks for pretty much saying you don't know what you're talking about then. But no, im apart of digimon discussions with verse supporters too, and their indexing of their species pages is exactly the same as what's been done with Pokemon.Don't give a shit, don't know what Digimon is but even to my knowledge and through conversations with verse supporters they have plenty of their own weird mechanics.
Yes, they do share capabilities, most of their P&A and their statistics are shared among all members of the species. They're exactly as homogenous as you'd expect a species to be.Im not exactly seeing what about this really negated my initial point? They may all share a common tier baseline wise, but at the end of the day, each Kryptonian isn't literally the exact same person, creature, or being, no more than humans are of the same race but entirely different people. Their capabilities aren't innately the same all around,
DC, not Marvel. But like, that's exactly what people are arguing applies to Pokémon too, dude. The exact same thing.And the different mediums in Marvel depicting their strength differently, showing it's not universally the same, would prove this even more.
At least I admit it instead of being stubborn about a verse I don't know. And at least I don't get the verse's name wrong. But yes, that is literally what I said LOL, dunno why you're acting like I didn't.Thanks for pretty much saying you don't know what you're talking about then.
But no two Pokémon are the same in the way no two Kryptonians are the same, Kryptonians may have somewhat different appearances, attributes, or personalities, but I’m pretty sure all types of Pokémon tick at least two of those boxes, sometimes all three. The specific differences are ultimately arbitrary, but the presence of them isn’t. Some Kryptonians are stronger/taller/heavier than others, some Pikachus are as well. They’re both species with some varying attributes but ultimately share said species. Pokémon shouldn’t really be treated differently to species such as Kryptonians because they’re both... well, species. If species are not immune to these standards then a profile split makes sense. And yeah, the examples showing that these standards do apply to species have made sense with weak countersIm not exactly seeing what about this really negated my initial point? They may all share a common tier baseline wise, but at the end of the day, each Kryptonian isn't literally the exact same person, creature, or being, no more than humans are of the same race but entirely different people. Their capabilities aren't innately the same all around, and the different mediums in Marvel depicting their strength differently, showing it's not universally the same, would prove this even more.
Like, any two random Kryptonians could have differences in size, gender, physical attributes, but they’re still the same species.But no two Pokémon are the same in the way no two Kryptonians are the same, Kryptonians may have somewhat different appearances, attributes, or personalities, but I’m pretty sure all types of Pokémon tick at least two of those boxes, sometimes all three. The specific differences are ultimately arbitrary, but the presence of them isn’t. Some Kryptonians are stronger/taller/heavier than others, some Pikachus are as well. They’re both species with some varying attributes but ultimately share said species. Pokémon shouldn’t really be treated differently to species such as Kryptonians because they’re both... well, species. If species are not immune to these standards then a profile split makes sense. And yeah, the examples showing that these standards do apply to species have made sense with weak counters
Except Kryptonians are people with names and very different faces that serve different roles in their civilizations and Pokemon are basically nameless animals with just enough intelligence to communicate 99% of the time. All Charmanders are Charmanders, all Squirtles are Squirtles. If minor differences such as size matter then might as well delete species profiles as a whole since no two bears are the same and no two cats are the same. All pokemon of one species have the same powers and generally the same appearance except for shinies. The only change one can find is height. Otherwise all pokemon except for the few rare outliers have the same power set and behave generally the same with at best minor differences in height and an extremely rare difference in color.But no two Pokémon are the same in the way no two Kryptonians are the same, Kryptonians may have somewhat different appearances, attributes, or personalities, but I’m pretty sure all types of Pokémon tick at least two of those boxes, sometimes all three. The specific differences are ultimately arbitrary, but the presence of them isn’t. Some Kryptonians are stronger/taller/heavier than others, some Pikachus are as well. They’re both species with some varying attributes but ultimately share said species. Pokémon shouldn’t really be treated differently to species such as Kryptonians because they’re both... well, species. If species are not immune to these standards then a profile split makes sense. And yeah, the examples showing that these standards do apply to species have made sense with weak counters
We're talking about physical not mental differences. And Pokémon have those more than Kryptonians.Except Kryptonians are people with names and very different faces that serve different roles in their civilizations and Pokemon are basically nameless animals with just enough intelligence to communicate 99% of the time. All Charmanders are Charmanders, all Squirtles are Squirtles. If minor differences such as size matter then might as well delete species profiles as a whole since no two bears are the same and no two cats are the same. All pokemon of one species have the same powers and generally the same appearance except for shinies. The only change one can find is height. Otherwise all pokemon except for the few rare outliers have the same power set and behave generally the same with at best minor differences in height and an extremely rare difference in color.
None of this actually disproves anything, intelligence of species doesn’t come into the equation. I get it feels like it does but it really doesn’t. Pikachus can have different shaped tails depending on gender, that bears just as much relevance as any two Kryptonians having different faces.Except Kryptonians are people with names and very different faces that serve different roles in their civilizations and Pokemon are basically nameless animals with just enough intelligence to communicate 99% of the time
All Kryptonians are Kryptonians, see how easy that is?time. All Charmanders are Charmanders, all Squirtles are Squirtles.
This isn’t about Pokémon’s classification as a species, it’s about the fact these standards apply to species. Kryptonians are a species in spite of differences, so are Pokémon. The standards apply to Kryptonians, THAT’S the precedent, and we need to start applying them to Pokémon tooIf minor differences such as size matter then might as well delete species profiles as a whole since no two bears are the same and no two cats are the same.
Okay, so to summarize why I disagree with splitting the pokemon pages, it all has to so with most of our pages being species pages, not character pages. This may be a little long, but it's necessary to explain properly.Can you summarise your reasoning for why we should not split the Pokemon pages, Kukui?