Gojo VS Makima • (13-2-1) • Grace

[Dr._whiteee]

DE in general do not work well with those who do not have CE and in the case of ID it is even worse since the whole point is that it is a natural force that repels CE and is completely ignored by anything without CE.

And I was talking about Gojo not Sukuna.

Makima is bloodlusted she will use everything she can in battle and being able to see the future is an absurd advantage that has zero negative effects.

This is wrong, on many levels.

Firstly, all humans have an innate domain, not just sorcerers.

Second, Gojo's domain has already been shown to work on cursed spirits and regular humans. CE covering the material is legit all it needs to interact with Makima and she has no resistance against other layers.

Makima setting up any sort of devil power before Gojo punches her face in, turns her into a function, or turns her into a veggie is a very low percentage case Imo. He absolutely smurfs her in combat ability and while she has some nice tricks, Gojo has the better hax and it's much more accessible to him compared to Makima.

 

[Magicomethkuon]

DE in general do not work well with those who do not have CE

So Gojo didn't use DE on the Fukutoshin Line Platform fight because he wanted to show off and not because it would kill everyone in range, including the normal human bystanders?

 

[azontr]

Okay yeah we're talking about Innate Domain's. Yeah, that just doesn't make sense then, because the only aspect of an Innate Domain that requires a target to have Cursed Energy is the expansion of said Domain via DE. And this only applies to the sure-hit effect, not the actual technique imbued into the Domain, which you can just fire off normally instead...

 

[Lynieryz]

This is wrong, on many levels.

Firstly, all humans have an innate domain, not just sorcerers.

Second, Gojo's domain has already been shown to work on cursed spirits and regular humans. CE covering the material is legit all it needs to interact with Makima and she has no resistance against other layers.

Makima setting up any sort of devil power before Gojo punches her face in, turns her into a function, or turns her into a veggie is a very low percentage case Imo. He absolutely smurfs her in combat ability and while she has some nice tricks, Gojo has the better hax and it's much more accessible to him compared to Makima.

Dude, what do you even think you're talking about? Practically nothing you said relates to what I said.

Firstly, I never talked about innate domains, but about internal domains, which prevent something with cursed energy from teleporting to the internal body of a human.

Second, again, there is no relation to what I said.

Third, what is this again man? What kind of broken logic is this? You didn't talk about anything I said, none of that stops her from teleporting out of Gojo's reach after she sees the future and that's It.

 

[TokiNoOuja]

Did no one ever bring up Falling Blossom Emotions?even if Makima's attack hit him,he could just reduce the impact to a state where it was not a lethal attack

Oh wait can that be used considering it wasnt in his profile currently?

 

[Lynieryz]

So Gojo didn't use DE on the Fukutoshin Line Platform fight because he wanted to show off and not because it would kill everyone in range, including the normal human bystanders?

I'm talking about literally zero cursed energy aka Heavenly Restrictions.

 

[azontr]

Did no one ever bring up Falling Blossom Emotions?even if Makima's attack hit him,he could just reduce the impact to a state where it was not a lethal attack

Oh wait can that be used considering it wasnt in his profile currently?

Falling Blossom Emotion is an anti-domain technique. It isn't meant for normal attacks.

 

[Dr._whiteee]

Dude, what do you even think you're talking about? Practically nothing you said relates to what I said.

Firstly, I never talked about innate domains, but about internal domains, which prevent something with cursed energy from teleporting to the internal body of a human.

Second, again, there is no relation to what I said.

Third, what is this again man? What kind of broken logic is this? You didn't talk about anything I said, none of that stops her from teleporting out of Gojo's reach after she sees the future and that's It.

You said and I quote
"DE in general do not work well with those who do not have CE and in the case of ID it is even worse since the whole point is that it is a natural force that repels CE and is completely ignored by anything without CE."

So therefore the first portion of your post was to try and say Gojo's Domain expansion would mitigated due to it being vs Makima, which is just untrue.

The second part I did mistake for innate domain, because internal domain isn't really a term. You re referring to the fact that the body is a domain in of itself because it the boundary of a person's physical form. That has may more to do with ontological aspects of JJK (and a higher hax then what's in CSM) and much less to do with whatever you were trying to infer. Makima's powers are also conceptual, idk why you guys are acting like she has purely physical in nature. Lacking a universal energy system does not automatically equate to purely material.

It does. Makima needs her devils powers for effect, Gojo can casually outpace her in the ease of his activation. Ergo, reading the future means nothing if isn't something she can casually and mentally activate, because that's how fast Gojo can whip out his domain, his blue, his red, etc. Powers mean nothing if you can't actually put them to use.

 

[Magicomethkuon]

I'm talking about literally zero cursed energy aka Heavenly Restrictions.

His DE works just fine on regular humans with negligible amounts of negative emotion and CE. Makima is a cesspool of negativity in several ways, trying to say that she would have resistance to DE just because she comes from a different franchise isn't a logic that I think others can agree with.

 

[TokiNoOuja]

Falling Blossom Emotion is an anti-domain technique. It isn't meant for normal attacks.

Simple Domain also an anti-domain Technique,by this logic it wouldnt work on anything outside Domain Expansion's which is wrong

Its an ability that capable to repel anything that made contact,not to mention Sukuna put/set both his Dismantle and Cleave on his Domain and FBE capable to counter it because its not a complicated attack like UV or something

 

[Lynieryz]

So therefore the first portion of your post was to try and say Gojo's Domain expansion would mitigated due to it being vs Makima, which is just untrue.

The second part I did mistake for innate domain, because internal domain isn't really a term. You re referring to the fact that the body is a domain in of itself because it the boundary of a person's physical form. That has may more to do with ontological aspects of JJK (and a higher hax then what's in CSM) and much less to do with whatever you were trying to infer. Makima's powers are also conceptual, idk why you guys are acting like she has purely physical in nature. Lacking a universal energy system does not automatically equate to purely material.

It does. Makima needs her devils powers for effect, Gojo can casually outpace her in the ease of his activation. Ergo, reading the future means nothing if isn't something she can casually and mentally activate, because that's how fast Gojo can whip out his domain, his blue, his red, etc. Powers mean nothing if you can't actually put them to use.

Tell me what is the position of the story about the use of DE on someone with zero CE like Maki and Toji, do you think you're going to lie to my face like that?

Irrelevant Makima and her attacks have zero CE.

Equalized speed this is irrelevant²

 

[Dr._whiteee]

Tell me what the position of the story is about the use of DE on someone with zero CE like Maki and Toji, do you think you're going to lie to my face like that?

Toji and Maki are not immune to domains. They are immune to the targeting effects of most sure hit effects within domains. Sukuna literally razed a couplecity blocks worth of buildings and I stated to you multiple times, CE can interact with the material world, so you bringing up someone being CE less is useless. Toji got clapped by CT, Maki gets hit by Nue's lightning. You're just wrong here.

Irrelevant Makima and her attacks have zero CE.

Which means nothing. They cover areas already under the umbrella of CT. Gojo's ability manipulates abstract principles and the fabric of space itself, yet your appealing to a physical nature to bypass limitless? That ain't it chief.

Equalized speed this is irrelevant²

Equalized speed to my knowledge does not cover attacking speed, nor the immense skill gap. Gojo's ability to use blue is much more casual than Makima's and his domain requires him to twist his fingers.

 

[Robo432343]

incon fra...

 

[Lynieryz]

His DE works just fine on regular humans with negligible amounts of negative emotion and CE. Makima is a cesspool of negativity in several ways, trying to say that she would have resistance to DE just because she comes from a different franchise isn't a logic that I think others can agree with.

Irrelevant Toji and Maki are capable of feeling negative emotions and this does not cause their CE to stop being zero.

 

[azontr]

Irrelevant Toji and Maki are capable of feeling negative emotions and this does not cause their CE to stop being zero.

Because they literally are unable, because they have a specific restriction that prevents them from storing or generating cursed energy lol.

 

[Magicomethkuon]

Irrelevant Toji and Maki are capable of feeling negative emotions and this does not cause their CE to stop being zero.

There are many problems with trying to say that Makima is the same as Toji Fushiguro and Maki, who both have very special circumstances. But the main logical pitfall here is that at this point you are arguing that anyone coming from a different verse is CE-less and inherently immune to DE. Instead of making them equal to an average human unless their feats support such special resistances.

 

[Lynieryz]

Equalized speed to my knowledge does not cover attacking speed, nor the immense skill gap. Gojo's ability to use blue is much more casual than Makima's and his domain requires him to twist his fingers.

I'm only going to answer this and tomorrow I'll answer the rest, Irrelevant Gojo's decision on which attack to use, thought, movement etc, will occur at the same speed as Makima and as I already said she will simply teleport out of Gojo's reach for having seen the future.

 

[Robo432343]

um
makima teleporting out of gojos reach and seeing the future would take too much time

 

[LordGinSama]

The future Devils precognition isn't even that good. That's only 4-5 seconds which can't be spammed to hell and back, meanwhile Gojo also has his own teleportation that allowed him to travel from the bottom of the ocean to a city instantly.

 

[noisyPitta]

Abstract Existence is listed in the Devil Physiology page

I know. What I meant is that if devils get Abstract Existence, then cursed spirits should too (they currently don't)

 

[Robo432343]

I know. What I meant is that if devils get Abstract Existence, then cursed spirits should too (they currently don't)

oh hell nah

 

[noisyPitta]

oh hell nah

wym hell nah? Disaster curses are manifestations of humanity's collective fear of a concept in very much the same way as devils are. They'll also revive/resurrect/reincarnate after death as long as humanity continues to fear and curse their concept.

 

[Spinoirr]

Gojo wants to teach Makima about love like with Sukuna and kills her, because it was done out of love and he wins gg

 

[LordGinSama]

Cursed spirits do in fact have Type 2 AE.

 

[TheGunsFinalWrath]

The future Devils precognition isn't even that good. That's only 4-5 seconds which can't be spammed to hell and back, meanwhile Gojo also has his own teleportation that allowed him to travel from the bottom of the ocean to a city instantly.

City? do you mean in chapter 221? If so, then no. He teleported to somewhere in Ukraine. it is a old soviet underground bunker or some stuff iirc. (which means W teleportation range)

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

Cursed spirits do in fact have Type 2 AE.

Doesn't seem to be conceptual though just thought based while the ones in Chainsaw Man have actual power over the object like CSD eating the Nuclear Bomb Devil and their name = no more nuclear bombs and even the idea of them are not present in the peoples mind.

 

[Zabazab]

Gojo is still being folded as soon as she speaks ngl. Makima just being able to tell that he is Him, while based, is a poor argument.
The fact that there are JJK characters that can send out/detect bloodlust does not change the fact that Makima cannot sense that Gojo is stronger, the limit of her senses is that she knows he's a human.

 

[Magicomethkuon]

They're bloodlusted so Gojo starts with DE. Makima wouldn't be thinking normal human when from the very beginning this guy is a match to her speed and opening what looks like a Universe before her eyes. There's also no guarantee that bloodlusted Makima wouldn't start with another of her sure-kill options. Or am I wrong? Not a vote yet, but I don't think she'd see Gojo as inferior under these circumstances.

I agree to disagree that that happens because of this, actually. Even if it did it's one potential scenario, not the only one that could happen.

 

[Zabazab]

I just don't think using any Cursed Technique would be as fast as the speech-based Conquest. A simple "Down." and Gojo loses. There are other ways it could go, but I don't see Makima choosing any other action 99% of the time. 'Tis what it is, I suppose.

 

[Greatsage13th]

Hmm

 

[Magicomethkuon]

I just don't think using any Cursed Technique would be as fast as the speech-based Conquest. A simple "Down." and Gojo loses. There are other ways it could go, but I don't see Makima choosing any other action 99% of the time. 'Tis what it is, I suppose.

I still agree to disagree on this one, she'd know as soon as the fight begins that the guy is not normal or inferior because of speed equal and his powers. And if she starts not knowing that he's inferior she could just as well start with something like a bang.

 

[Lynieryz]

Toji and Maki are not immune to domains. They are immune to the targeting effects of most sure hit effects within domains. Sukuna literally razed a couplecity blocks worth of buildings and I stated to you multiple times, CE can interact with the material world, so you bringing up someone being CE less is useless. Toji got clapped by CT, Maki gets hit by Nue's lightning. You're just wrong here.

Now you're putting words in my mouth, come on, let's see who's lying here:

First; My comment about DE was not that it doesn't work but that it doesn't work well.[which you yourself later admitted to be the case and started stating that I said they were immune after I asked what the work's position was in relation to that]

Which means nothing. They cover areas already under the umbrella of CT. Gojo's ability manipulates abstract principles and the fabric of space itself, yet your appealing to a physical nature to bypass limitless? That ain't it chief.

It's a shame that spatial manipulation through concepts doesn't mean much when the space that is being manipulated through concepts is not conceptual.

There are many problems with trying to say that Makima is the same as Toji Fushiguro and Maki, who both have very special circumstances. But the main logical pitfall here is that at this point you are arguing that anyone coming from a different verse is CE-less and inherently immune to DE. Instead of making them equal to an average human unless their feats support such special resistances.

Irrelevant as it is against the equalization rules.

It is also important to note that characters won't lose or gain any abilities or resistances which they do or do not inherently possess.

 

[Magicomethkuon]

Irrelevant as it is against the equalization rules.

It is also important to note that characters won't lose or gain any abilities or resistances which they do or do not inherently possess.

But this citation works in favor of my argument, explaining why the logic that you're using for Makima against DE doesn't hold. Not against it...

 

[Dr._whiteee]

Now you're putting words in my mouth, come on, let's see who's lying here:

First; My comment about DE was not that it doesn't work but that it doesn't work well.[which you yourself later admitted to be the case and started stating that I said they were immune after I asked what the work's position was in relation to that]

No one is lying. Gojo's domain is not impacted because every sentient thing in his domain is targeted outside of himself and who he' touching. You're taking Maki and Toji's special nature (which wouldn't help them against Gojo's domain) and then trying to apply their power to Makima, and not only that, you aren't even applying the special property. DEs are not "less effective" vs regular people. They are vs heavenly restricted users and only in the manor of sure hit targeting.

Ergo, you're just wrong here.

It's a shame that spatial manipulation through concepts doesn't mean much when the space that is being manipulated through concepts is not conceptual.

It's a shame it absolutely is since it itself is a "Infinite space that does not play by the rules of regular finite dimensional space" and is explicitly stated to have a special inner product for it's topology. Meaning it absolutely is an abstract space.

Irrelevant as it is against the equalization rules.

so Makima isn't going to be gaining resistances she doesn't have here? Yeah, I agree.

 

[SunDaGamer]

Irrelevant as it is against the equalization rules.

It is also important to note that characters won't lose or gain any abilities or resistances which they do or do not inherently possess.

Regular humans don't have cursed energy manipulation despite possessing cursed energy so Makima doesn't gain any abilities even if we said she has the CE of a regular person.

 

[Lynieryz]

But this quote works in favor of my argument, explaining why the logic that you're using for Makima against DE doesn't hold. Not against it...

so Makima isn't going to be gaining resistances she doesn't have here? Yeah, I agree.

Regular humans don't have cursed energy manipulation despite possessing cursed energy so Makima doesn't gain any abilities even if we said she has the CE of a regular person.

However, if an ability has a weakness, condition, caveat, or limitation, consistently shown throughout its use (such as not working on characters under a specific condition, like energy gap) or stated by a valid and uncontradicted statement, then it should be applicable after the equalization.

Makima won't get CE because it's against the rules and I've never argued that DE doesn't work well on her because she has CE that doesn't even make sense? And certain things about an DE not working well is because of zero CE and again that doesn't even matter for my argument this was to explain the internal domains, I never said she is immune to DE, I said that DE would work the same way it works in someone with Zero CE.

 

[Lynieryz]

It's a shame it absolutely is since it itself is a "Infinite space that does not play by the rules of regular finite dimensional space" and is explicitly stated to have a special inner product for it's topology. Meaning it absolutely is an abstract space.

Very cool but currently what is accepted is that the space is manipulated through concepts and not that the space is conceptual in itself.

 

[Dr._whiteee]

Very cool but currently what is accepted is that the space is manipulated through concepts and not that the space is conceptual in itself.

It's not, it's currently accepted as an abstract space.

 

[Lynieryz]

It's not, it's currently accepted as an abstract space.

Wait... Where's Gojo's conceptual manipulation?

 

[Dr._whiteee]

Wait... Where's Gojo's conceptual manipulation?

Maybe I'm blind because it's morning, but where did I say conceptual? I said "abstract".

• Applied manipulation of mathematics: The ability to manipulate real phenomenons by changing the mathematical rules through which they are described.

Let's look up the definition of Math.

the abstract science of number, quantity, and space. Mathematics may be studied in its own right ( pure mathematics ), or as it is applied to other disciplines such as physics and engineering ( applied mathematics ).