Ryomen Sukuna VS. The Control Devil (1-9-0) Concluded

[LaserPrecision]

I disagree, to transfer the damage as an appropriate illness or event upon a random Japanese Citizen, its not based on the severity of the attack its completely randomized, and its a law based contract anyways, so it wouldn't have a choice but to transfer it to someone

To address all points like this, this is a direct No Limits Fallacy here. Assuming that it transfers ALL types of damage regardless of the fact if it's shown to do so or not. Unless it has shown to stop something like cutting space (or any other special powers for that matter). The Damage Transferal page makes that pretty obvious itself:

The damage they share with the targeted individual or object could be physical, mental, spiritual or supernatural in nature or some combination of the above

It's not assumed Damage Transferal just transfers all damage no matter what. If you can show Makima's contract transferring something similar to the ability in question? Sure, that's fine. Then realistically it should be able to transfer all attacks similar to an example. Otherwise, stop assuming the contract being Law Manipulation or whatever inherently means it can transfer attacks with properties it's never shown to transfer.

As for who I think wins? I'll withold my vote for a bit, but it's worth noting Sukuna would have no qualms with wiping out Japan's population to kill Makima. One Domain Expansion would do that pretty damn quick.

Mahoraga's just a bonus imo.

 

[Arkenis]

It adapts to phenomena not a energy system stop trying to push the arguments somewhere else. Why Immortality is not a phenomenon instead turned into energy system here?

We are not talking about energy systems, curse energy is by definition a phenomenon in the series yet Maho explicitly does not adapt to curse energy itself. And Immortality is a phenomenon, I never said it wasn't, what I'm arguing is that Makima's immortality is derived from Law Manipulation, something he's never shown to adapt to, and how would he adapt to it? The adaptation has to interact with Mahoraga/Sukuna, specifically, it has to be an attack this is clear with Sukuna saying attacks. If Mahoraga/Sukuna could adapt to anything, the wheel would have been adapting to all sorts of physics just standing around, the air around them, the very space they're in.

Never thought I'd see arguments for adapting to immortality for Maho

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

One Domain Expansion would do that pretty damn quick.

There's over a hundred million Japanese citizen, don't think his Domain is that strong

 

[GunshyFever]

To address all points like this, this is a direct No Limits Fallacy here. Assuming that it transfers ALL types of damage regardless of the fact if it's shown to do so or not. Unless it has shown to stop something like cutting space (or any other special powers for that matter). The Damage Transferal page makes that pretty obvious itself:

It's not assumed Damage Transferal just transfers all damage no matter what. If you can show Makima's contract transferring something similar to the ability in question? Sure, that's fine. Then realistically it should be able to transfer all attacks similar to an example. Otherwise, stop assuming the contract being Law Manipulation or whatever inherently means it can transfer attacks with properties it's never shown to transfer.

That was about the World slash, which we decided to discontinue that here because Sukuna doesn't have in this key

As for who I think wins? I'll withold my vote for a bit, but it's worth noting Sukuna would have no qualms with wiping out Japan's population to kill Makima. One Domain Expansion would do that pretty damn quick.

Mahoraga's just a bonus imo.

A full range D.E couldn't even wipe Shibuya (note that Shibuya is 3,888.75 meters) and Sukuna's max range is 200m with D.E, regarding the fact that Makima wont even be fighting but rather watching in the shadows. After the first D.E he gets turned to paste by Makima's death ritual. Even if for some reason Makima doesn't use it, he would just go spamming domains trying to wipe out the population wasting his C.E, and I'm sure a 200m radius per domain is not near enough to wipe out all Japanese citizens and note that Japan is 614,714 meters in size

 

[LaserPrecision]

We are not talking about energy systems, curse energy is by definition a phenomenon in the series yet Maho explicitly does not adapt to curse energy itself. And Immortality is a phenomenon, I never said it wasn't, what I'm arguing is that Makima's immortality is derived from Law Manipulation, something he's never shown to adapt to, and how would he adapt to it? The adaptation has to interact with Mahoraga/Sukuna, specifically, it has to be an attack this is clear with Sukuna saying attacks. If Mahoraga/Sukuna could adapt to anything, the wheel would have been adapting to all sorts of physics just standing around, the air around them, the very space they're in.

While saying he can't interact with the Law Manipulation itself may be fair Tho if Mahoraga were confronted by a troublesome Binding Vow that is also Law Manip, I think they would adapt to that, they can adapt a way to counteract it by developing a type of attack that the contract can't transfer as it would be outside the scope of phenomena it's shown to "reflect" onto other citizens. That would be my guess as to how Mahoraga would handle the contract.

There's over a hundred million Japanese citizen, don't think his Domain is that strong

Yeah? And Malevolent Shrine lets out billions if not trillions of cuts a second. They'd be mowed down pretty quickly methinks.

That was about the World slash, which we decided to discontinue that here because Sukuna doesn't have in this key

I'm aware. I just wanted to nip that in the bud before it became a problem later.

A full range D.E couldn't even wipe Shibuya (note that Shibuya is 3,888.75 meters) and Sukuna's max range is 200m with D.E, regarding the fact that Makima wont even be fighting but rather watching in the shadows. After the first D.E he gets turned to paste by Makima's death ritual. Even if for some reason Makima doesn't use it, he would just go spamming domains trying to wipe out the population wasting his C.E, and I'm sure a 200m radius per domain is not near enough to wipe out all Japanese citizens and note that Japan is 614,714 meters in size

I'm aware. I'm saying that Domain Expansion will literally be hitting Makima so much, that every Japanese citizen will die due to her contract transferring damage. Every citizen would be dead in seconds.

 

[Arkenis]

There's over a hundred million Japanese citizen, don't think his Domain is that strong

Even assuming Sukuna would go to such length, the guy's only supersonic, traveling all of Japan isn't realistic in the slightest nor is it even optimal.

 

[Arkenis]

they can adapt a way to counteract it by developing a type of attack that the contract can't transfer as it would be outside the scope of phenomena it's shown to "reflect" onto other citizens

Maho really hasn't shown something outside the scope like that though. I could come up with some ways he could transmute his ce but its still gonna be an attack either way no?

 

[GunshyFever]

I'm aware. I'm saying that Domain Expansion will literally be hitting Makima so much, that every Japanese citizen will die due to her contract transferring damage. Every citizen would be dead in seconds.

Yeah, If Makima gets caught in a smaller domain which is more effective and If he really can let out billions/trillions of slashes a second that could definitely kill her. But that's not a situation Makima will find herself in anyways

 

[LaserPrecision]

Maho really hasn't shown something outside the scope like that though. I could come up with some ways he could transmute his ce but its still gonna be an attack either way no?

Transmuting his CE might work I'd need to read the chapter again to see exactly how it works, but he could unironically adapt the spatial cutting sooner as a method of bypassing it.

Yeah, If Makima gets caught in a smaller domain which is more effective and If he really can let out billions/trillions of slashes a second that could definitely kill her. But that's not a situation Makima will find herself in anyways

I'm referring to his open Domain. Not a closed Domain. Mathmatically, she would need to be in the domain for less than a second (From her perspective) for her to run out of Japanese Citizens to use to take hits for her.

 

[Arkenis]

Yeah, If Makima gets caught in a smaller domain which is more effective and If he really can let out billions/trillions of slashes a second that could definitely kill her. But that's not a situation Makima will find herself in anyways

Laser's gonna drop his quadrillions of slashes domain calc run!!

 

[LaserPrecision]

Laser's gonna drop his quadrillions of slashes domain calc run!!

 

[GunshyFever]

I'm referring to his open Domain. Not a closed Domain. Mathmatically, she would need to be in the domain for less than a second (From her perspective) for her to run out of Japanese Citizens to use to take hits for her.

Yeah, I meant if the domain were to be smaller it would be more effective but I don't think it would differentiate really

 

[LaserPrecision]

Yeah, I meant if the domain were to be smaller it would be more effective but I don't think it would differentiate really

I think the only reason he might do a smaller domain is if he's doing a closed domain. Which I guess could be decent for temporarily trapping her? But I think he'd just use open domain.

 

[GunshyFever]

Maho really hasn't shown something outside the scope like that though. I could come up with some ways he could transmute his ce but its still gonna be an attack either way no?

The Maho args don't rlly make sense since Makima wont be fighting herself anyways, I think Sukuna would use domain to clear up her army, then Makima would crush him to a paste with her ritual

 

[LaserPrecision]

The Maho args don't rlly make sense since Makima wont be fighting herself anyways, I think Sukuna would use domain to clear up her army, then Makima would crush him to a paste with her ritual

They start 50 meters away and are fighting with the intention to beat each other. I don't recall Makima ever just running away and hiding from a fight when she's forced into a combat scenario. Ever. At least up until where I read (Currently at the beginning of the War Devil arc, still reading it). Would she have people fight for her? Yes, but she's not going to dash away or anything like that. Once Sukuna realizes Makima's regenerating from his attacks, he's going to make sure she gets caught in his Domain to see if he can bypass it.

 

[LaserPrecision]

Another argument that could unironically come to fruition is if Sukuna somehow can't kill Makima, he could just possess her by feeding her a finger. She wouldn't know what he's doing and probably think nothing bad will come of it, and then boom, Makuna.

 

[Arkenis]

They start 50 meters away and are fighting with the intention to beat each other. I don't recall Makima ever just running away and hiding from a fight when she's forced into a combat scenario. Ever. At least up until where I read (Currently at the beginning of the War Devil arc, still reading it). Would she have people fight for her? Yes, but she's not going to dash away or anything like that. Once Sukuna realizes Makima's regenerating from his attacks, he's going to make sure she gets caught in his Domain to see if he can bypass it.

I mean it's possible but Bang outright launched csm hundreds of km in four Bangs, so I'm struggling to see if he could pull off Domain here.

 

[GunshyFever]

They start 50 meters away and are fighting with the intention to beat each other. I don't recall Makima ever just running away and hiding from a fight when she's forced into a combat scenario. Ever. At least up until where I read (Currently at the beginning of the War Devil arc, still reading it). Would she have people fight for her? Yes, but she's not going to dash away or anything like that. Once Sukuna realizes Makima's regenerating from his attacks, he's going to make sure she gets caught in his Domain to see if he can bypass it.

Generally speaking no, I already stated previously but Makima generally prefers to stay in the shadows while manipulating or controlling others to perform the battles for her, Makima will probably summon her army and leave it to them as she watches from behind the scenes like in the international assassins arc

Another argument that could unironically come to fruition is if Sukuna somehow can't kill Makima, he could just possess her by feeding her a finger. She wouldn't know what he's doing and probably think nothing bad will come of it, and then boom, Makuna.

He doesn't have that in standard equipment

Edit: It would be cool to see that happen tho

 

[Hiiilt]

I don't recall Makima ever just running away and hiding from a fight when she's forced into a combat scenario

she did that in the international assassins arc

 

[LaserPrecision]

I mean it's possible but Bang outright launched csm hundreds of km in four Bangs, so I'm struggling to see if he could pull off Domain here.

If I'm being real, I think Sukuna either tries to dull the blast with his attacks, or has Mahoraga eat them for him.

Generally speaking no, I already stated previously but Makima generally prefers to stay in the shadows while manipulating or controlling others to perform the battles for her, Makima will probably summon her army and leave it to them as she watches from behind the scenes like in the international assassins arc

The first one is Makima trying to draw out the Chainsaw Devil, and the second one doesn't even have her stay in the shadows. She just stands in place while she has other people fight for her.

Sukuna would either clear out her army quickly, or have his Shikigami deal with them and take care of Makima.

He doesnt have that in standard equipment

What? His possession isn't even equipment. What are you talking about?

 

[Epiccheev]

I mean it's possible but Bang outright launched csm hundreds of km in four Bangs, so I'm struggling to see if he could pull off Domain here.

Sukuna throws his finger into her mouth all the way from space and revives.

 

[LaserPrecision]

Sukuna throws his finger into her mouth all the way from space and revives.

Worlds craziest trick shot. Sukuna would be great at Basketball... or in Dude Perfect

 

[Dr._whiteee]

Does she have resistance to fear manip?

 

[Naito-desu]

Voting Makima fra

 

[GunshyFever]

If I'm being real, I think Sukuna either tries to dull the blast with his attacks, or has Mahoraga eat them for him.

I'm pretty sure he cant even see them, and It only takes several of them to kill him better yet send him to space

The first one is Makima trying to draw out the Chainsaw Devil, and the second one doesn't even have her stay in the shadows. She just stands in place while she has other people fight for her.

The second one is having her draw out the Chainsaw Devil to deal with the Hell Devil instead of herself, and the second one is her leaving her army of hybrids to take on Pochita, and eventually sticks around and joins the fight for the sole reason of fighting the Chainsaw Devil himself, someone who she admires. An example of Makima staying in the shadows is also in the International Assassins arc.

Sukuna would either clear out her army quickly, or have his Shikigami deal with them and take care of Makima.

Makima would stay out of the fight and leave it to her Hybrid army, and yet Makima would already be setting up her ritual once Sukuna completes his rampage of her army by D.E or Shikigami

What? His possession isn't even equipment. What are you talking about?

I see what you mean now

Does she have resistance to fear manip?

No, but she should have resistance to Madness Manip soon, via the Darkness Devil

 

[Hiiilt]

No, but she should have resistance to Madness Manip soon, via the Darkness Devil

Shouldn't she resist the dd fear manip too? Or is the dd going to lose its fear manip once the profile is updated?

 

[GunshyFever]

Shouldn't she resist the dd fear manip too? Or is the dd going to lose its fear manip once the profile is updated?

Fear Manip and Madness manip is what the Darkness Devil possess so yea

 

[Zabazab]

What is Sukuna's Bio Resistance from? It just shows heat resistance.

 

[LaserPrecision]

I'm pretty sure he cant even see them, and It only takes several of them to kill him better yet send him to space

He would see Makima aiming at him, and could retaliate with any of his techniques too. Cutting her arms off, shooting a fire arrow as she takes aim, etc. Mahoraga can also see invisible attacks. If it really comes down to it, he could also use Domain Amplification to neutralize its effects. I can't really see him getting caught in it and being unable to do anything though.

The second one is having her draw out the Chainsaw Devil to deal with the Hell Devil instead of herself, and the second one is her leaving her army of hybrids to take on Pochita, and eventually sticks around and joins the fight for the sole reason of fighting the Chainsaw Devil himself, someone who she admires. An example of Makima staying in the shadows is also in the International Assassins arc.

Yeah, both examples of her making people fight for her. Not running away and hiding. I agree she uses minions to fight for her, but she doesn't "hide in the shadows" in the scans posted.

Makima would stay out of the fight and leave it to her Hybrid army, and yet Makima would already be setting up her ritual once Sukuna completes his rampage of her army by D.E or Shikigami

Sukuna would leave Makima's armies to the devices of his Shikigami and go after Makima directly. He's going to realize she's trying to avoid direct conflict and go directly to her instead. And Makima only ever used that ritual once on random characters who weren't even in her area.

No, but she should have resistance to Madness Manip soon, via the Darkness Devil

Didn't the Darkness Devil literally only affect Fiends? Even regular humans, hybrids, etc. were unaffected. Unless this is a later incident.

 

[Dr._whiteee]

What is Sukuna's Bio Resistance from? It just shows heat resistance.

The databook states that sorceror's bodies are domains and thus cannot be messed with without first imbuing an effect into a physical item and having that enter the body first as a medium. Other than that not much outside of maybe some disease resistance from his Kodoku ritual.

 

[Dr._whiteee]

No, but she should have resistance to Madness Manip soon, via the Darkness Devil

She may struggle with his fear aura then as Sukuna can intimidate people who can withstand that passive aura from curse grade 2 and above, and even the level of Yuta's aura which stopped a grade 1 like Naoya in his tracks.

 

[GunshyFever]

Ill respond to these later

 

[Zabazab]

The databook states that sorceror's bodies are domains and thus cannot be messed with without first imbuing an effect into a physical item and having that enter the body first as a medium. Other than that not much outside of maybe some disease resistance from his Kodoku ritual.

I mean the bio manip resistance on Sukuna's page, not Sorcerers, which is stated to be limited & just stops objects from being spawned inside.

 

[Spinoirr]

"Ah yes, the barking technique I haven't used sense th-"

 

[Doggo]

Why are people even bringing up Makima's army when Sukuna stat stomps all of them (except for the snake,angel,punishment devil)?

Death ritual would work but Makima needs to have some prep and keep a distance.Sukuna is not gonna allow her once he realizes she is planning something. It's even easier for him to do so given the range of his attacks and he could simply kill the person Makima is using for the ritual

Doesn't Sukuna bypass her regen with DE and the fire arrow? The same thing happened with Maho and the arrow is massively above her dura so it kinda incinerates her to nothing.

There is also that soul damage he could inflict. RCT should counter her bio hax

 

[LordGinSama]

Maho can definitely adapt to the contract. It's moreso if he can survive long enough.


As a cannibal Sukuna could honestly just eat her or a Fuga to completely vaporize her.

 

[Arkenis]

Why are people even bringing up Makima's army when Sukuna stat stomps all of them (except for the snake,angel,punishment devil)?

Hax. They have zombification, death manip, precog, dollification, life manip, intang, petrification, mind hax.
He's not stat stomping through all that. And everyone can dodge too.

Doesn't Sukuna bypass her regen with DE and the fire arrow? The same thing happened with Maho and the arrow is massively above her dura so it kinda incinerates her to nothing.

Damage transfer

There is also that soul damage he could inflict.

Something he's never done except that one time to Mahito randomly and we have a possible rating on it too.

RCT should counter her bio hax

Continuous use? Also internal damage, ruined a stronger Sukuna's brain from the damage he suffered from UV and RCTing his own brain like Gojo. A weaker Sukuna's RCT definitely won't handle continuously doing this, plus the damage Bang will give him

 

[Arkenis]

He Upscales from 2.95 Kilotons of TNT,

Btw this is wrong, He scales to Ryu and Yuta, we don't scale people to Uraume's Max output. He'd be 1.72 Kiltons making him 4.88x weaker.

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

Just a reminder that our wiki has some trash standards for Reactive Evolution so Maho would be pretty much useless to anything he didn't adapt already.

Outside of that I don't see why Makima wouldn't just mind manip sukuna and call it a day

 

[LordGinSama]

The amount of NLF's attached to her contract is ridiculous. It's based on Law Manipulation, cool doesn't mean she can transfer all types of attacks and damage.

Shit only works to the extent that was shown. More esoteric hax like soul manipulation, EE, etc would bypass the contract without having feats to come back from them.