Ryomen Sukuna VS. The Control Devil (1-9-0) Concluded

[GunshyFever]

There’s no suitable or proper one for that either. Again, this attack targets that of space, existence, the very fabric of reality that Makima exists in. There’s truly nothing that can even begin to justify that Makima’s contract could even begin to comprehend what happened to try and transfer it.

Regeneration is fine. Dodging it is unlikely, it can’t even be seen by people like Gojo, and it’s already exists in another wavelength of light via it being a curse.

I disagree, to transfer the damage as an appropriate illness or event upon a random Japanese Citizen, its not based on the severity of the attack its completely randomized, and its a law based contract anyways, so it wouldn't have a choice but to transfer it to someone

That’s fine, it still damaged her. If Sukuna targets the head she dies.

Nah

Appropriate means suitable and fitting. Such as in the CSM vs Makima fight, her head getting cut off transfers to anyone else. But towards the Darkness Devil, she outright admitted to needing Denji’s help afterwards.

She didn't tho? She only appeared to face off against the Darkness Devil to save her comrades, and then left it to Denji to face off against a Darkness Empowered Santa Claus while she went else where

Darkness Devil bypassed it by pointing at her.

He never bypassed it, overtime she regenerated just the same

I'm only really discussing this because it was interesting not that it matters to the thread

 

[GunshyFever]

Yeah, not gonna lie, the fight is cool and I like the concept but on paper, Maho is Sukuna's main way of winning this besides Domain. Maho just gets haxs dumped onto him till he dies from not adapting, something Makima would recognize soon. Bang can easily keep away Sukuna from using Cleave fatally, not that it matters given her contract and regeneration.

This isn't a stomp tho right?

 

[Arkenis]

This isn't a stomp tho right?

Nah. They can definitely scrap, Maho won't come out soon, Sukuna will have the advantage with his layered invis slashes, Makima will just keep coming back and at that point Sukuna might pick up that her life and the citizens around are connected and just domain which she'll get destroyed from or just leave through dimensional travel. Maho should be able to recover from some of her hax but once she starts summoning devils and hybrids he won't survive. Fuga wouldn't matter either.

 

[Zabazab]

The idea that only something that can happen normally to a JP Citizen can be transferred via Makima's Contract is absolutely insane

But in any case she can just directly transfer an attack from herself onto another. This weird weakness does not exist in the manga or on Makima's page.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Nah. They can definitely scrap, Maho won't come out soon, Sukuna will have the advantage with his layered invis slashes, Makima will just keep coming back and at that point Sukuna might pick up that her life and the citizens around are connected and just domain which she'll get destroyed from or just leave through dimensional travel. Maho should be able to recover from some of her hax but once she starts summoning devils and hybrids he won't survive. Fuga wouldn't matter either.

15F Sukuna canonically uses Maho as his in character start up move unless we are talking about Yujikuna only.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

If Sukuna figures out Makima won't die from his slashes he would definitely use Mahoraga. It wouldn't take much time. Also 15F Meguna was fixated on testing it on because this is a new technique he needed to master. So I believe he would use Mahoraga more often than his own techniques.

 

[Arkenis]

15F Sukuna canonically uses Maho as his in character start up move unless we are talking about Yujikuna only.

No? He didn't bring out Maho for all of Yorozu fight. He didn't bring Maho out till the third domain battle with Gojo iirc.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

No? He didn't bring out Maho for all of Yorozu fight. He didn't bring Maho out till the third domain battle iirc.

He initially brought out Maho. It needs time for adaptation. When he put the wheel on himself, adaptation already started. That's why when he was in a pinch instantly, he was able to ignore Yorozu's true sphere because Maho had already adapted to Yorozu's techniques from the beginning. This was even stated in Gojo's fight.

If Sukuna figures out Makima won't die from his slashes he would definitely use Mahoraga. It wouldn't take much time. Also 15F Meguna was fixated on testing it on because this is a new technique he needed to master. So I believe he would use Mahoraga more often than his own techniques.

Yeah he would definitely use Mahoraga to get a better experience.

Also Makima profile doesn't have damage transfer for her soul damage? If Sukuna identifies she won't die and starts attacking the soul she shouldn't be able to transfer the damage.

 

[Arkenis]

He initially brought out Maho. It needs time for adaptation. When he put the wheel on himself, adaptation already started. That's why when he was in a pinch instantly, he was able to ignore Yorozu's true sphere because Maho had already adapted to Yorozu's techniques from the beginning. This was even stated in Gojo's fight.

Okay you're just confused, I am talking about bringing out Maho to fight with. He doesn't do this in the Yorozu fight. I have not argued against adaptation here at all.

 

[Hiiilt]

Also Makima profile doesn't have damage transfer for her soul damage? If Sukuna identifies she won't die and starts attacking the soul she shouldn't be able to transfer the damage.

Which one of his attacks targets the soul?

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Okay you're just confused, I am talking about bringing out Maho to fight with. He doesn't do this in the Yorozu fight. I have not argued against adaptation here at all.

Why bringing out Maho matters when he starts with using wheel on himself to observe the technique in this key. He can use both Ten Shadows and his technique swapping both at the same time. What is the advantage of him bringing out Mahoraga and keep adapting with it even bringing it out until last resort? It's highly possible to create a counter with Mahoraga a technique to bypass Makima immortality and sever the link between her and Citizens looking at how Mahoraga even created a technique to cut down Gojo. Or let's say it would create a some damage which Makima can't send it to citizens like soul damage or something else.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Which one of his attacks targets the soul?

He used his Slash to damage Mahito though it's unknown if it's dismantle or Cleave. He doesn't use it normally. I'm just talking as last resort. He would use it push comes to push.

 

[Arkenis]

Why bringing out Maho matters when he starts with using wheel on himself to observe the technique in this key. He can use both Ten Shadows and his technique swapping both at the same time. What is the advantage of him bringing out Mahoraga and keep adapting with it even bringing it out until last resort?

Because fighting someone with two people instead of one is better. Again no one is arguing against in character adaptation, I don't know why you keep bringing it up.

It's highly possible to create a counter with Mahoraga a technique to bypass Makima immortality and sever the link between her and Citizens looking at how Mahoraga even created a technique to cut down Gojo. Or let's say it would create a some damage which Makima can't send it to citizens like soul damage or something else.

I don't agree. Devils' powers are derived from abstracts, so interacting with that isn't something the wheel's ever done. Also, the adaptation occurs when Maho or Sukuna get affected, how does Makima's immortality affect them?

 

[Arkenis]

This isn't a stomp tho right?

Voting for Makima btw

 

[Hiiilt]

I'm also voting for makima

 

[Zabazab]

I think Makima just leaves and spams goons at Sukuna until they win/can't win and then she just uses her death ritual or "Strong Makimer Stare".

 

[GunshyFever]

I think Makima just leaves and spams goons at Sukuna until they win/can't win and then she just uses her death ritual or "Strong Makimer Stare".

This means your voting Makima?

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

I disagree, to transfer the damage as an appropriate illness or event upon a random Japanese Citizen, its not based on the severity of the attack its completely randomized, and its a law based contract anyways, so it wouldn't have a choice but to transfer it to someone

Can you prove that it isn’t? We can’t just assume Makima could be hit with anything and it would always be redirected.

Nah

I do not believe a several cm hole through the skull would compare to a existential cut of this size, while not even at full power.

She didn't tho? She only appeared to face off against the Darkness Devil to save her comrades, and then left it to Denji to face off against a Darkness Empowered Santa Claus while she went else where

And against Santa Claus, she explicitly asks Denji for help.

He never bypassed it, overtime she regenerated just the same

I'm only really discussing this because it was interesting not that it matters to the thread

Overtime. That’s the caveat. She was damaged, and it wasn’t transferred.

 

[GunshyFever]

Can you prove that it isn’t? We can’t just assume Makima could be hit with anything and it would always be redirected.

Yes that is the nature of a contract, if your not aware; Contracts are a form of verbal binding vow between a devil and a human which cannot be broken without the death of the party that breaks the contract. They will be carried out regardless of volition depending on the nature of the contract, they fall under Law Manipulation. Makima also never stated that the severity of the attack discerned the illness or accident which would be given to a random Japanese citizen but rather an appropriate illness/accident on the person whom is the victim to her contract. Even if this was an issue Makima can directly transfer the Damage to another Japanese Citizen.

I do not believe a several cm hole through the skull would compare to a existential cut of this size, while not even at full power..

Makima can survive being beheaded and having her brain destroyed even if that attack completely destroys her head, I don't doubt that she would just be able to regenerate a new one. But I do believe that attack could completely destroy Makima's body but she has precognition to which will show her if she cant survive the attack even with her contract (Assuming Mid-High regen isn't enough to return from that attack) she would likely teleport out via Princi

And against Santa Claus, she explicitly asks Denji for help.

No, Makima is far superior to Denji in everything and would have no reason for him to help her if she choose to fight, Makima generally prefers to stay in the shadows while manipulating or controlling others to perform the battles for her

Overtime. That’s the caveat. She was damaged, and it wasn’t transferred.

It was transferred, Makima's contract takes several seconds to help her regenerate from attacks, unlike her chains which directly transfer the attack for more effective regeneration

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

i want to continue this but not only does it not matter since he’s only 15F, it’s clogging up space. I’ll just drop for now, ping my wall if you wanna continue.

 

[Arkenis]

Guys... can ya debate the stuff that matters? Go talk in jjk discussion or csm if you're gonna continue so this thread isn't filled with irrelevant points.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Because fighting someone with two people instead of one is better. Again no one is arguing against in character adaptation, I don't know why you keep bringing it up.

Still don't see how 2 or 1 will affect against adaptation beside Sukuna does uses other Summonings like elephant, piercing Ox and dogs

I don't agree. Devils' powers are derived from abstracts, so interacting with that isn't something the wheel's ever done. Also, the adaptation occurs when Maho or Sukuna get affected, how does Makima's immortality affect them?

Curses power is also derived from abstracts also, Mahogara can interact with that. It didn't stated adaptation occurred when affected. So when did Gojo's infinity was used as offensive? That's a defensive technique which is still got adapted. It states all phenomenons not just offensive.

 

[Arkenis]

Still don't see how 2 or 1 will affect against adaptation beside Sukuna does uses other Summonings like elephant, piercing Ox and dogs

I am not arguing against adaptation.

Curses power is also derived from abstracts also, Mahogara can interact with that. It didn't stated adaptation occurred when affected. So when did Gojo's infinity was used as offensive? That's a defensive technique which is still got adapted. It states all phenomenons not just offensive.

That's fine yet we do not see him ever adapt to curse energy itself, we see the very opposite with him dying to Fuga, Purple, and Red being capable of killing him. Gojo's infinity interacted with Sukuna, no one ever said offensive or defensive abilities can't be adapted to. I'm talking about immortality here which specifically doesn't interact with Maho.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

That's fine yet we do not see him ever adapt to curse energy itself, we see the very opposite with him dying to Fuga, Purple, and Red being capable of killing him. Gojo's infinity interacted with Sukuna, no one ever said offensive or defensive abilities can't be adapted to. I'm talking about immortality here which specifically doesn't interact with Maho.

It adapts based on phenomena which is against it. If Makima immortality is taken as nuicense it should start adapting. Sukuna initially just blocks the attack. It changed energies to attack him. Same thing happened with Gojo we clearly got an statement where Adaptation was changing Cursed Energy nature.

Like I said it doesn't even have to destroy her immortality it just need to make a counter.

Sukuna can analyse the opponent techniques. He would definitely make Mahoraga create a counter.

Otherwise he can just damage the soul of Makima as a last resort knowing he has no other ways.

 

[GunshyFever]

I think Makima just leaves and spams goons at Sukuna until they win/can't win and then she just uses her death ritual or "Strong Makimer Stare".

^This is what Makima would actually do honestly

 

[Arkenis]

It adapts based on phenomena which is against it. If Makima immortality is taken as nuicense it should start adapting. Sukuna initially just blocks the attack. It changed energies to attack him. Same thing happened with Gojo we clearly got an statement where Adaptation was changing Cursed Energy nature.

Like I said it doesn't even have to destroy her immortality it just need to make a counter.

Sukuna can analyse the opponent techniques. He would definitely make Mahoraga create a counter.

Her immortality is based on law manip, can he adapt to something like that? And he still couldn't adapt to curse energy in general, show he could or drop this point.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

^This is what Makima would actually do honestly

Is it in character?

Her immortality is based on law manip, can he adapt to something like that?

Domain has law manipulation it doesn't stop Mahoraga from adaptating to Yorozu and Gojo's domain and techniques.

And he still couldn't adapt to curse energy in general, show he could or drop this point.

I don't know why you are asking for complete CE Adaptation when Mahogara adaptation works as a counter to kill it's opponents. Also it can indeed affect CE to some extent which is again irrelevant as I said above Law Manipulation isn't going to save Makima.

 

[GunshyFever]

Is it in character?

Yes, Makima lets her underlings get the job done for her as she watches in the shadows

 

[GunshyFever]

Voting Makima

 

[Arkenis]

Domain has law manipulation it doesn't stop Mahoraga from adaptating to Yorozu and Gojo's domain and techniques.

He adapted outside the domain for both of these.

I don't know why you are asking for complete CE Adaptation when Mahogara adaptation works as a counter to kill it's opponents. Also it can indeed affect CE to some extent which is again irrelevant as I said above Law Manipulation isn't going to save Makima.

Because you argued for abstract interaction with adaptation and I'm showing you he's never done so and has actually been killed by ce.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Yes, Makima lets her underlings get the job done for her as she watches in the shadows

then she just uses her death ritual or "Strong Makimer Stare".

How these techniques works?

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

He adapted outside the domain for both of these.

Because he adapted to users technique. How does it mean Makina thing is way different?
Isn't her contract is technically how Binding vow works in JJK?

Because you argued for abstract interaction with adaptation and I'm showing you he's never done so and has actually been killed by ce.

I don't understand what you trying to say here. Even devil's has AE type 2 not 1. Same as Curses.

 

[Zabazab]

How these techniques works?

• Death Ritual: Makima can completely crush her opponents into bloody remains upon arriving at a location of high altitude and using human sacrifices to say the name of a target of her choosing[28].
• Biological Manipulation (With a simple stare, Makima has shown to be able to cause massive amounts of bleeding from a person's eyes, nose and mouth. While the exact method used by her isn't explicit, it's likely that she used some sort of biological attack to cause internal hemorrhaging within that man's brain with her stare[33]. Uses a similar attack against the Darkness Devil later on[17])

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

• Death Ritual: Makima can completely crush her opponents into bloody remains upon arriving at a location of high altitude and using human sacrifices to say the name of a target of her choosing[28].

How would she know Sukuna name? Isn't this works after sacrifice says the victim names

• Biological Manipulation (With a simple stare, Makima has shown to be able to cause massive amounts of bleeding from a person's eyes, nose and mouth. While the exact method used by her isn't explicit, it's likely that she used some sort of biological attack to cause internal hemorrhaging within that man's brain with her stare[33]. Uses a similar attack against the Darkness Devil later on[17])

Sukuna has biological manipulation resistance

 

[GunshyFever]

How would she know Sukuna name? Isn't this works after sacrifice says the victim names

Clairvoyance (Was somehow able to discover the nature of Denji’s contract with Pochita, despite it all taking in place within Denji’s mind, She's also able to connect her own senses with that of those she controls, even if they're in an entirely different dimension from her)

 

[Nierre]

I don't doubt that Mahoraga would start to adapt to Makima's Immortality (as in, that's something it's capable of), but we have no way of telling how it would do so, and how Makima could lose. It's too hypothetical of a wincon to reliably vote for Sukuna, so Makima FRA

 

[Arkenis]

Because he adapted to users technique. How does it mean Makina thing is way different?
Isn't her contract is technically how Binding vow works in JJK?

Mahoraga had ample time to adapt to curse energy as a phenomenon and couldn't, there's no wiggle room, or "well he adapted to cursed technique", that's not curse energy. If he could adapt to the pure abstract curse energy then nothing curse energy based should be able to kill him, we do not see that though so he can't. And yeah both are law manip.

I don't understand what you trying to say here. Even devil's has AE type 2 not 1. Same as Curses.

We are talking about if Mahoraga can adapt to abstract abilities sources, I said Devils abilities are derived from the concepts, their powers come from people fearing them. Mahoraga can't adapt to a curse, and the fact he can't adapt to curse energy would prove this.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Clairvoyance (Was somehow able to discover the nature of Denji’s contract with Pochita, despite it all taking in place within Denji’s mind, She's also able to connect her own senses with that of those she controls, even if they're in an entirely different dimension from her)

What ability is death ritual falls under

 

[GunshyFever]

What ability is death ritual falls under

Telekinesis

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Mahoraga had ample time to adapt to curse energy as a phenomenon and couldn't, there's no wiggle room, or "well he adapted to cursed technique", that's not curse energy. If he could adapt to the pure abstract curse energy then nothing curse energy based should be able to kill him, we do not see that though so he can't. And yeah both are law manip.


We are talking about if Mahoraga can adapt to abstract abilities sources, I said Devils abilities are derived from the concepts, their powers come from people fearing them. Mahoraga can't adapt to a curse, and the fact he can't adapt to curse energy would prove this.

It adapts to phenomena not a energy system stop trying to push the arguments somewhere else. Why Immortality is not a phenomenon instead turned into energy system here?
Mahoraga adapted phenomenon of Slashes itself it doesn't matter if it was Dismantle which is normal slashes and Cleave which is based on adaptation slashes.
So stop pulling the arguments to somewhere else. Energy system is irrelevant here.