Gojo VS Makima • (13-2-1) • Grace

[noisyPitta]

Already said that Gojo can't auto-block every kind of vector. That'd be NLF.

Do telekinetic force vectors exist in JJK, and has he blocked them before? If so then sure.

From the very fact that Bang is a projectile, regardless of what its made out of, its still getting stopped. If an attack needs to travel through physical space to reach its target, it doesnt really matter what the attack is made out of, it still gets stopped. If you start taking it to the level of 'has Gojo blocked something like this before' its going to get messy, but I don't believe it even needs to be debated since Makima's attack still has other properties that cause it to get stopped by infinity.

 

[Shmooply]

Several times actually

can we sentence phoenks to public humiliation for this

 

[Peppersalt43]

can we sentence phoenks to public humiliation for this

Eh, I mean. Death Battle just released Gojo vs Makima. This is a really good time to make this kind of thread and get traction, especially with how the last 2 threads didn't go beyond 10 comments

 

[Phoenks]

This doesn't even make sense, because if something isn't physically interacting with a target to produce force to move them in a certain way, then it wouldn't even produce any effect regardless of scale. You have a misunderstanding of how telekinesis works, fundamentally.

The ability to affect physical objects via thoughts only.

- Telekinesis page.

This is a very general summary of the ability, but yeah nah, Telekinesis doesn't require physical interaction. It's just a non-physical force that applies itself based on the user's thoughts.

Wasn't this matchup, like, done before.

Thought I acknowledged this in the OP. It has been done many times, never concluded I believe.

 

[PhantomØ4]

TK having mass because logic needs it to have mass to apply force is pretty funny when itself is breaking such logic. The power bang scene does kinda imply it would have speed since it went beyond power so idk.

 

[LordGinSama]

Already said that Gojo can't auto-block every kind of vector. That'd be NLF.

No, it'd be a no limits fallacy to claim something like concept manipulation or similar high end abilities can't bypass infinity. That's how his CT works, it doesn't matter what the ability is (don't take this too literally ofc.) in question because of how infinity works. It stops anything with a mass, velocity or CE by creating a infinite distance that's done by dividing infinity into smaller sections, thus creating a infinite distance between Gojo and his opponent.


So the question isn't really can Gojo's infinity defend against a non esoteric ability like TK but rather if Makima's TK has feats of crossing infinite distance.


Also that's quite literally the equivalent of me saying Yhwach can't nullify fire and lesser abilities because he's never been shown to despite him negating much more complex things. Or that Garou can't gain resistance to things like ice manipulation because he's never shown that.

Do telekinetic force vectors exist in JJK, and has he blocked them before? If so then sure.

Jogo has telekinetic fire and he still couldn't do shit. Furthermore, a basic application of CE is to manipulate it in the same fashion as telekinesis. You don't really need TK whenever you can do this without touching things with just basic applications of CE.

 

[Phoenks]

From the very fact that Bang is a projectile, regardless of what its made out of, its still getting stopped. If an attack needs to travel through physical space to reach its target, it doesnt really matter what the attack is made out of, it still gets stopped.

This would be no-limits-fallacy.

And by your definition here, even Sukuna's space cut should've been stopped since it still has to move through physical space. Which isn't what happened.

You can't just assume that all things that travel through space get stopped by Infinity, since Infinity clearly seems to only affect specific things. For example, it does not detect normal air currents, that way Gojo can still breathe.

So yeah, you'd need to provide proof he can detect the TK force vectors.

 

[noisyPitta]

This is a very general summary of the ability, but yeah nah, Telekinesis doesn't require physical interaction. It's just a non-physical force that applies itself based on the user's thoughts.

All Cursed Energy users have NPI

 

[LordGinSama]

That's a really bad argument to use for TK since alternatively we can do the same with Makima's TK.


Does her TK have feats of bypassing infinite distance or effecting space?

 

[Phoenks]

That's a really bad argument to use for TK since alternatively we can do the same with Makima's TK.


Does her TK have feats of bypassing infinite distance or effecting space?

Why do they need to have those feats if Infinity won't apply to the TK vectors in the first place? That's what I'm arguing here right now.

 

[LordGinSama]

And by your definition here, even Sukuna's space cut should've been stopped since it still has to move through physical space. Which isn't what happened.

Bad example to make since Sukuna's slashes affect space, existence and the world itself. It doesn't matter if it's traveling since that was the point, go outside of the range of Limitless, using spatial and other hax to overcome it.

As Sukuna said, infinity didn't matter at that point since he could cut much more than just infinity.

 

[Phoenks]

Sukuna's slashes affect space, existence and the world itself.

space = space
existence = space
world itself = space

He's cutting through physical space, which stills requires travel through physical space, thus by your definition it should've been stopped.

 

[Zabazab]

I think the first thing to point out is that CSM has no energy system, so an equalization of energy systems is impossible- there is nothing like Cursed Energy in CSM.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Forgor the reason why Makima's Mind Hax wouldn't work

 

[Zabazab]

Gonna talk mostly about Makima because I think Gojo's abilities are more well-known.

If Makima lacks prior knowledge of Gojo beyond his face and name, she just wins with little effort. Her Conquest will work immediately due to her instinctual belief that she is superior to humans, and Gojo will get mind/memory/body-puppet haxxed as soon as she gives a command.

If she does have knowledge that he is The Strongest Sorcerer, she won't be able to immediately Conquer him. To counteract limitless she'll probably use her "me looking at you gives you a brainbleed" hax to damage Gojo's brain, which iirc brain damage distrupts one's CT (temporarily, as RCT could repair it). Most effective method for her would be to teleport away either through rats or Princi and then sacrafice someone in order to crush Gojo's body, assuming brain damage isn't enough to actually make holding Infinity impossible for a moment.

 

[azontr]

This is a very general summary of the ability, but yeah nah, Telekinesis doesn't require physical interaction. It's just a non-physical force that applies itself based on the user's thoughts.

Kinda curious how you kinda just pulled this part out of the void despite the fact the page itself doesn't say this, nor does any official VSWiki source insinuate that telekinesis isn't physical force

 

[Phoenks]

Gonna talk mostly about Makima because I think Gojo's abilities are more well-known.

If Makima lacks prior knowledge of Gojo beyond his face and name, she just wins with little effort. Her Conquest will work immediately due to her instinctual belief that she is superior to humans, and Gojo will get mind/memory/body-puppet haxxed as soon as she gives a command.

If she does have knowledge that he is The Strongest Sorcerer, she won't be able to immediately Conquer him. To counteract limitless she'll probably use her "me looking at you gives you a brainbleed" hax to damage Gojo's brain, which iirc brain damage distrupts one's CT (temporarily, as RCT could repair it). Most effective method for her would be to teleport away either through rats or Princi and then sacrafice someone in order to crush Gojo's body, assuming brain damage isn't enough to actually make holding Infinity impossible for a moment.

There will be no prior knowledge given in this match and both contestants are bloodlusted.

 

[BoastJr]

Bang still sounds like it would need to travel to reach Gojo

Forgor the reason why Makima's Mind Hax wouldn't work

Gojo wouldn't be seen as inferior in the eyes of Makima considering his importance and status in the jjk world

 

[Phoenks]

Kinda curious how you kinda just pulled this part out of the void despite the fact the page itself doesn't say this, nor does any official VSWiki source insinuate that telekinesis isn't physical force

Telekinesis can't be a physical force if it isn't a physical action, which it isn't.

 

[LordGinSama]

Why do they need to have those feats if Infinity won't apply to the TK vectors in the first place? That's what I'm arguing here right now.

Because of how infinity works...? Again that's the equivalent of me saying Yhwach can't negate Fire manipulation or poison manipulation, because of how abstract the mechanics of the Almighty are that wouldn't matter. Your acting as if Makima's TK is some type of esoteric concept based ability despite it being about as basic as it gets.


I feel like your really abusing this NLF

Much like Yhwach, Gojo's infinity has stopped much more complex abilities from entering. Furthermore, a literal basic application of CE is using it to touch things without physically touching them.

space = space

Yes.

existence = space

No, existence is not space. Existence is everything within space.

world itself = space

Read above. The world here is in reference to Maho's adaptation of not just targeting Gojo or his infinity but the world itself. Hence why Gojo was incapable of dodging because space, existence (physical matter.) and the world (further range.)


If it were all just space cutting then there'd be no actual damage done to the surrounding area.

 

[Phoenks]

Because of how infinity works...? Again that's the equivalent of me saying Yhwach can't negate Fire manipulation or poison manipulation, because of how abstract the mechanics of the Almighty are that wouldn't matter. Your acting as if Makima's TK is some type of esoteric concept based ability despite it being about as basic as it gets.

Infinity works based on vectors its shown to work-upon. Doesn't include literally every possible vector from every series.

Almighty is a weird thing to bring up here and I'm not sure how it's even relevant. These two are completely, completely different.

Much like Yhwach, Gojo's infinity has stopped much more complex abilities from entering.

Example?

No, existence is not space. Existence is everything within space.

So, space? What else is there within space? Matter is also space.

 

[Zabazab]

There will be no prior knowledge given in this match and both contestants are bloodlusted.

Then I believe the most likely result is Makima ordering Gojo to give her all of him, and Gojo accepting said contract due to Conquest. I see that happening and Makima winning 99% of the time, currently.

 

[LordGinSama]

Telekinesis can't be a physical force if it isn't a physical action, which it isn't.

That's being very broad, not all TK users produce something non physical. Most TK users use TK to literally create physical objects, shit half of them are capable of creating things like hard ass shields that are anything but non physical.


Makima again, is not Tatsumaki. Bang's are a concussive force, it's not even true TK like let's say Tetsuo, Tatsumaki or even Law. They use their abilities to levitate things without making physical contact, etc. Makima points, says bang and rapidly create concussive force.

Also for the record TK shouldn't even be on her profile, nowhere in CSM is it ever stated what Makima does is TK but rather the closest thing we get it "force manipulation."

 

[Deidalius]

Who's winning?

 

[PhantomØ4]

Bang still sounds like it would need to travel to reach Gojo


Gojo wouldn't be seen as inferior in the eyes of Makima considering his importance and status in the jjk world

There is no prior knowledge tho lol

 

[noisyPitta]

If she does have knowledge that he is The Strongest Sorcerer, she won't be able to immediately Conquer him. To counteract limitless she'll probably use her "me looking at you gives you a brainbleed" hax to damage Gojo's brain, which iirc brain damage distrupts one's CT (temporarily, as RCT could repair it). Most effective method for her would be to teleport away either through rats or Princi and then sacrafice someone in order to crush Gojo's body, assuming brain damage isn't enough to actually make holding Infinity impossible for a moment.

Brain damage doesn't inherantly disrupt your CT, the one time this happened with Gojo vs Sukuna was because they damaged their brain by CT burnout (using your domain too much). Unless Makima is capable of identifying and targeting the exact part of the brain that controls the CT, then this wouldn't happen.

 

[noisyPitta]

Who's winning?

Nobody. We're debating if Makima's Bang bypasses infinity at the moment

 

[Zabazab]

I'm pretty sure there is TK in JJK, so I'd assume Infinity can stop it if Gojo has a way to detect invisible things.

You could argue that the effect of Bang's force appears to be applied instantly as soon as she says "Bang!" to Pochita even when he was rapidly getting further away when she shot him into space.

But I don't think her Bang is all too significant here, she has deadlier dura neg that more blatantly bypasses Infinity.

 

[noisyPitta]

Wait why does it even matter if Makima's telekinesis can reach Gojo: he has higher durability anyway

 

[Phoenks]

Wait why does it even matter if Makima's telekinesis can reach Gojo: he has higher durability anyway

I think they're both Low 7-C?

 

[PhantomØ4]

Wait why does it even matter if Makima's telekinesis can reach Gojo: he has higher durability anyway

??? They are both small town level, well, Makima’s TK is small town anyways.

 

[noisyPitta]

??? They are both small town level, well, Makima’s TK is small town anyways.

Gojo's lowest key has him at "At least Small Town level, likely far higher". I don't know the exact numbers of this scaling but the upscale of 'far higher' and the fact that we're using his later key (I assume. There's no mention of his key in the fight description) means he will be scaling above Makima on durability, probably in other stats too

 

[azontr]

Gojo should be High 7-A but we don't talk about that. Not responding to Phoenks' shid on telekinesis because the debate seems to have moved past that.

 

[Phoenks]

Gojo's lowest key has him at "At least Small Town level, likely far higher". I don't know the exact numbers of this scaling but the upscale of 'far higher' and the fact that we're using his later key (I assume. There's no mention of his key in the fight description) means he will be scaling above Makima on durability, probably in other stats too

scaling above doesn't mean that Makima can't do anything though, since they are calculated around the same value

unless that "far higher" has an absolutely absurd scaling chain attached, in which case I'd say Bang is a bit irrelevant.

But anyway, what is Gojo's answer to potentially being controlled from the start?

 

[LordGinSama]

Infinity works based on vectors its shown to work-upon. Doesn't include literally every possible vector from every series.

Again, your intentionally twisting my words or failing to comprehend the point. Claiming that Gojo's infinity would be incapable of stopping something as mundane as low levels of TK whenever it's blocked dozens of abilities that are much more complex than a concussive force like in Makima's case.

Almighty is a weird thing to bring up here and I'm not sure how it's even relevant. These two are completely, completely different.

The point went above your head, you can't claim someone is incapable of nullifying lesser abilities whenever they've shown the ability to nullify much more complex abilities easily.

Your trying to apply a weakness to something that has no such weakness. Again, basic application of CE already removes the need for TK for sorcerer's since they can already achieve the same results with CE. Furthermore, as I said before Limitless has stopped much more haxxier abilities in the past.

Example?

Blocking Sukuna's slashes, lava, fire, sonic waves and explosions, poison blood, soul manipulation, then both poison blood and soul manipulation at the same time.

This isn't even mentioning that it's stated in a verse haxxed as JJK there's only a handful of people who could overcome it.

So, space? What else is there within space? Matter is also space.

Matter is not space.... what? So are you space huh? Are ants space? no, Matter particles have a charge and mass. Space has not. Matter is what takes up space and has mass, again unlike space.

 

[LordGinSama]

I'm pretty sure there is TK in JJK, so I'd assume Infinity can stop it if Gojo has a way to detect invisible things.

Cursed Energy already does that tbh.

 

[azontr]

Blocking Sukuna's slashes, lava, fire, sonic waves and explosions, poison blood, soul manipulation, then both poison blood and soul manipulation at the same time.

This isn't even mentioning that it's stated in a verse haxxed as JJK there's only a handful of people who could overcome it.

First one isn't Sukuna using Dismantle or Cleave, just a physical attack.

 

[ZoroNotZolo]

I'll check both of their pages, then give my take on it.

 

[LordGinSama]

First one isn't Sukuna using Dismantle or Cleave, just a physical attack.

Ah my bad, ya got the point tho.

 

[noisyPitta]

unless that "far higher" has an absolutely absurd scaling chain attached, in which case I'd say Bang is a bit irrelevant.

I'm not about to go CRTing or anything but he survived the full hit of Malevolent Shrine, which is listed as 7-A. He tanks it with regen though so its more of a regen feat than a dura feat, but ultimately he should be somewhere in the range of City to Mountain, considering the other hits he takes from Sukuna that he fully tanks. I think Bang is meaningless against these, but again its not on the profile so I wouldn't rely on it.